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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: kwr on Sunday 06 January 08 16:29 GMT (UK)
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Born in Scotland I have him married in England in 1856 to an Irish girl and can trace him in every English census from 1861 onwards and to his death. Nowhere can I find his county of birth nor do I know his siblings or his mother's name. On the English marriage certificate his father is named as James also.
I intend to search Scotlandspeople for the 1851 and 1841 censuses and maybe marriages and births but I'd like some suggestions to try to narrow down the searches.
It has occurred to me that it might be useful if I listed the names of his children and his grandchildren because I understand there are some rough rules of thumb re. naming children.
His wife is Harriet. His children are James b. 1856, Harriet Ann b. 1860, and William b. 1862. Of these children ....
James disappears from 1871 on with no record of marriage or death so he may have emigrated.
Harriet Ann marries late, in England in 1895 and had one child Jessie.
William marries a Scottish girl Jane, in Liverpool and their children are:
James
William
Elizabeth Hilda
Agnes Laura
Stanley
Jane's own siblings also have William, Elizabeth and Agnes as names.
I know that on the scotlandspeople site one can now search on two names and I am wondering whether to ask for James and (for example) Hilda or Ann in an attempt to cut down the list of possible candidates.
Perhaps I should add that he is a stoker all his life so he may have been at sea in both 1841 and 1851 - which makes life a bit more complicated!
Any experience or reflections on the above would be most welcome.
Ken
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Hi Ken
Good to see that you have now found the marriage cert. for James and Harriet. One more step forward with confirmation of James's father's name. Just one question, did the 1856 marriage cert provide an occupation for James's father. That might help you when trying to narrow down possibilities for his family in Scotland in the earlier censuses.
The only possibility I am seeing so far is a father and son (b. 1822), both called James and both merchant seamen in 1841 (mother Maryann) living in South Leith, Midlothian.
Regards.
Monica :)
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Monica,
Very good of you to go to so much trouble to help. As to James Allison Senior - on the marriage certificate his occupation was given as farmer. The marriage was in 1854 in Liverpool so things may have changed back in Scotland..... The witnesses don't seem to be helpful though it may be the Scottish connection is still there because one is a Donald Campbell (who signs) though the other is a Mary Parker. I have yet to trace them in the 1851 census with any certainty.
My mother did say many years ago that the Allisons were from the western side of Scotland. The son of James who is my descendant was first a baker then an electrician then a fireman like his father. One picture of him survives and his dress is vaguely maritime. In turn his son, my grandfather went to sea at an early age - though in Liverpool that is not a surprise.
None of the above is of course at all conclusive. I am still wondering as I mentioned in my first query whether to link names like Ann and James. The fact that you found a Mary Ann may be a slight indicator? - I yhink I'm just being optimistic!
Thanks again.
Ken
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What age was he when he married in 1854
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Hi Sancti
This is the link to Ken's previous post last year for background www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,238136.msg1291189.html#msg1291189
From the census entries in England for James, he would look to have been born c. mid 1820s.
Regards.
Monica
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Does the marriage cert. say Bachelor and Spinster?
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Hi Ken
As far as naming patterns go, the key - if it existed (if they adhered to pattern) would be with Harriet and James' children and you would need to be as certain as you can be that you have all the names of any children born to them - including any who may have died in infancy:
First son after James' father - James (correct).
First daughter after Harriet's mother - what was her mother's name?
Second son after Harriet's father - what was her father's name?
Do you know if there were any children born to James and Harriet who died (especially in that gap - 1856 to 1860)?
Nothing is hard and fast, but my take is that the Scottish naming pattern is so named and such a useful tool, because it was heavily and widely used. James and Harriet's children would not expect to be traditional pattern-key in this search in that, their children would then be named after James and Harriet, and after their spouse's parents. Often, Scottish families who moved away from Scotland or where they marry a non-Scot, one sees a marked change in the way children are named, perhaps not the first generation (eg: James & Harriet) but in the next (eg their children) - as if they were released from bounds of tradition' and decided on a partial mix of tradition,and also introduced their "own" preferrred names. It is also so with occupations - your James was a Stoker all his life in Lancashire; however, prior to that he may have been quite differently occupied if he was in Scotland or stayed in Scotland - ie: his English occupation may well be a result of his "change of life" from Scotland to England.
Having nothing else to go on, looking for a James ALLISON born abt 1824, poss West side of Scotland, to a father named James who was a Farmer (for farmer also consider "Ag Lab" - marriage records often 'inflated' the occupation Ag Lab to Farmer!!)
Looking on the IGI:
There is one possibility on West of Scotland which may be worth running with, if nothing else than to eliminate:
James ALLISON son of 20 Feb 1823 - Inchinnan Renfrewshire
Parents: James ALLISON and Jean REID
IGI: James ALLISON and Jean REID married 1817 Inchinnan
All Issue to same named parents - all Inchinnan
John 1818/1819
Jean 1820
James 1823
Matthew 1824
Agnes 1826
The fact this family stops here - either IGI records are incomplete (I'm not sure what coverage IGI has for Renfrew?), the family moved out of Renfrew, or one of the parents died (I would suspect the latter?)
Running with that family.......
1841: Inchinnan, Renfrewshire
Ref: Parish 566, ED 2, Folio 2, pg 6
Address: Lookinsford
James ALLISON 60 Ag Lab, b RNF (abt 1781)
John ALLISON 22, AG Lab, b RNF (abt 1819)
Jean ALLISON 20, Ag Lab. b RNF (abt 1820)
Ann ALLISON 12, b RNF (abt 1829)
Walter ALLISON 10, b RNF (abt 1831)
Cannot find IGI births for Ann and Walter - the 1841, unfortunately doesn't indicate if they are james children (from a 2nd marriage??) or perhaps other relatives.
Son James (per IGI) may be here:
1841: Inchinnan, Renfrewshire
Ref: Parish: 566, ED 3, Folio 3, pg 2
Address: Oldmains Stable Loft
James ALLISON 15, Ag Lab - b RNF
He seems to be living with 2 other young male Ag Labs in the Loft - but the previous Household, is the ALGIE farm - probably their employer (a son of the ALGIE family is John, age 15)
In 1851:
Cannot locate James Snr, Jean (may have married) or Walter.
Anne may be the IGI Anne ALLISON b abt 1828, married in Jan 1846 Inchinnan John WALLACE (he died Jan 1872) (Where is she 1851, 1861)
James Jnr (as presumed per IGI birth) looks like he is still with the ALGIE's:-
1851: Paisely Abbey, Renfrewshire
Ref: Parish 573, ED 1A, pg 5
Address: North Cardon Old
Servant: James ALLISON 26, farm labourer, b Inchinnan
On Farm of John ALGIE age 29, who was also born Inchinnan.
John may be here (interesting there are CAMPBELL's in the house)
1851: 54 Water Street, Barony Lanarkshire
Ref: Parish: 622, ED 9, pg 18
Head: Elizabeth DONALDSON 56, Seller of Milk, b Paisley RNF
Son: Archibald DONALDSON 31, Grain Lab, b Glasgow LNK
Dau: Elizabeth DONALDSON 18, Servant, b Glasgow LNK
SisterInLaw: Alex'r CAMPBELL 35, b Campbelton ARG
Grandau: Elizabeth CAMPBELL 9, b Glasgow LNK
Grandson: Alexander CAMPBELL 8, b Glasgow LNK
Grandau: Margaret CAMPEBLL 6, b Glasgow LNK
Visitor: George PATERSON 58, Engineer, b Galston AYR
Visitor: John ALLISON 29, Moulder, b Inchinnan RNF
Can't find this James ALLISON jnr in the 1861?
Could he be yours! Perhaps chasing up all these Inchinnan ones, to see where they all end up.....
Cheers
AMBLY
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I am amazed (again) at how kind and prompt the helpers here have been when I, short of ideas and possible things to do next, ask for contributions.
Monica thank you for letting the others know - I hadn't realised this was possible until I followed your link to our previous contact! Shows how limited my thought processes are.
Sancti you'll know from Monica that the age of James Allison was given as 30 on the marriage certificate. They were entered as Spinster and Bachelor though of course one never knows.
Ambly,
Thank you for a thought provoking discussion re. naming patterns - and the possible pitfalls. The information you have already uncovered re. the Inchinnan possibility is also something I'll have to look at very hard. If it were only true..... but I shall look and think. Meantime I have begun to follow the suggestion that there may have been other children born 1854-60. According to Freebmd there are at least nine possibilities.
So I'll explore, eliminate and eventually get back. Meantime thanks once again for your support.
Ken
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Sorry,
A supplementary note - I was interrupted by a grandson.
I'm sure the Scottish connection was valued even 25-30 years later because my own grandfather (also named James) named all but one of his male children as Douglas, Gordon Leslie, Kenneth and James. None of those names came from his wife's side. His two daughters were my own mother Jean and Betty. I know this is not proof of anything really but it is an indication.
I also have two pictures of one of my grandfather's brothers, killed in WW1, wearing a kilt and an outfit which I am assured by a knowledgeable family historian on military matters indicates that he joined the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.
Now you know as much as I do about my Scottish ancestry!
Ken
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I've been doing what I can, when I can, to follow the suggestions after my query.
I did look at the possibility of children being born to James and Harriet between 1954 and 1860 in Liverpool. Taking into account that there were two born anyway, one on 1856 and the other in 1860 there seems to have been only one possible child - a female that I haven't been able to definitely eliminate. However there is no death for a Mary Allison in the Lancashire or FreeBMD in the time period. Overall I'm inclined to think there were no other children. It may be that as a stoker/fireman onboard his opportunities were fewer - if you take my point. So not a lot there.
Ambly, I had problems with the suggestion that the James Allison you found born in 1781 not marrying until 1817 - quite old I thought. But a search via IGI and Scotlandspeople for an earlier marriage than the one you suggested AND for a later one after the (possible) death of Jean got me absolutely nowhere. Of course whilst Scottish records are better than English I find that the lack of records (online) for deaths pre 1855 is a handicap. So I can't find any deaths of principal posssible ancestors there.
Again like Ambly I could find no further records of Walter and Ann after the references she discovered. I did view the marriage of Ann Allison to John Wallace and it does seem that it is she who does marry him. But they also disappear from what records I can consult thereafter. So another disappointing avenue.
There does seem to have been another Allison family in Inchinnan. A James Alison married Janet Killoch in 1810 so I followedthat up but it ground to a halt in 1841 - they are still going then and in 1851.
I then switched to looking for a Donald Campbell being in Liverpool at about the same time as James Allison. This was provoked by the discovery that there were Donaldsons/Campbells/and an Allison all in the same household - down to Ambly again. I did find one Donald Campbell, aged 24, a sailor of sorts, married ,in the 1861 census, living in what seems to be a sort of Scottish hostel in the same ward as James Allison and his wife were married in and stayed in for a while, after their marriage. That gave me a momentary if thin encouragement.
So I then looked for a possible connection between the Donaldson/Campbell/ Allison families, via IGI marriages, on Scotlandspeople, and census returns. After initial success ie Elizabeth Govans married Wm. Donadson and had 4 children, one of whom (Isobelle in IGI) married Alexander Campbell, I ground to a halt. There are, I think, just to many possible Donald Campbells for me to connect him definitively to Alexander Campbell - despite the latter having a fairly distinctive birthplace in Campbelton (sic) Argyll.
So.....basically I retire for the time being. I do like Ambly's Inchinnan suggestion though I did find another James Alison family in Mearns, that at first looked OK but farming 150 acres? - no son is going to become a stoker if he can farm I don't think.
I have one (forlorn) hope in that I have a grave plot number for Harriet Allison in Kirkdale , Liverpool. Her husband may be buried with her, he MAY have the county of birth on a stone, If there is a stone but considering he was living with his daughter when he died I doubt even that. They probably wouldn't have been able to afford it.
Sorry to have banged on but I thought I owed it to the people who tried to help, to show they had got me going!
One further thought has occurred to me. several experienced searchers of records have, like me, found very little after 1841. My mother did say that her father as well as being a seaman spent some years in Canada. I wonder very speculatively whether the whole Allison family uprooted, emigrated and settled there but kept contact and my grandfather went there for a while. So ...supplementary question. Are there records I can consult?
Ken
Ken
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Hi Ken
Sounds like you have been working hard on this one :)
On the issue of Canadian resources, you can use the emigrants board here (for Canada) on RootsChat where people will have access to the resources there: www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,166.0.html
Back to James A. Snr - was he merchant or royal navy? I just wondered whether he was ever in receipt of pension?
I like you looked at births in Liverpool for Allison children in that period of 1850-60s. Hard to say without looking at the detail on them. I think I was hoping for the use of any surnames for middle names that might provide some clues but none that I could see.
Regards.
Monica
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Ken
Have you noticed the 1841 census entry for a James Allison, 20, private, born Scotland at the Royal Marines Gun Wharf Barracks in Portsmouth?
Monica
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Thanks for the Canada reference Monica. It's a long shot but one never knows.
As for your other spanner in the works I think I'd rather not have known! Thank you anyway!
Ken
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This is probably a bit of a red herring but maybe the following will be of some use to you. I have a record of a James Allison and his wife Mary or Marion, maiden name Durward, They were living at 47 Albany Street, Leith, Edinburgh, and died there. James in 1871 and his wife in 1875.
James was a Ships Master. Captain of the 'Royal Adelaide' a steamer that sailed between Leith and London.
I believe that they had a daughter called May Allison b. 1833. I found her on the www.familysearch.org/ site, by typing the names of the parents only.
My interest in this family has nothing to do with my familiy history, apart from the fact that my g.grandmother, Ann Currie, en route to London from Leith in 1844, gave birth to twins on the Royal Adelaide.The twin, Allison, my G. Grandmother, was named after the ships Captain, and the twin Adelaide. after the ship. See attachment.
Regards,
Jane Joy.
Moderator Comment: Image removed
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What a lovely story Janeesca!
flst
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Janeesca - thank you for trying. It is a charming story.
I've followed the James you have here backwards and I don't think I can claimhim as an ancestor. If my g.g.grandfather James was telling the truth when he entered his own father's occupation as farmer (though of course it could have been ag. lab. as has been mentioned) then this man seems to have been a seaman consistently over the years.
I have very recently heard from a distant cousin that my James came from Lanark. That may be where I should look next.
I'm currently helping this cousin with her line but when I've finished there perhaps you've galvanised me to look again.
Ken