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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wiltshire Lookup Requests => Wiltshire => England => Wiltshire Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: anewitt on Wednesday 02 January 08 23:45 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
Please could anybody look up for me the Baptim of ESTHER / HESTER JUDD c1827 at Salisbury St Thomas ? She claims to have been born at "Close", Salisbury, and her father was William JUDD. From the IGI, I have found William & Mary Ann JUDD - parents of several children baptised at St Thomas around that period, - but no ESTHER (or HESTER).
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Alan.
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Hi Alan,
I can see a few not listed on the IGI, (all extracted records) taking the tally to 13 but alas no Hester :'(
possible marriage in St Martin
William JUDD (Widower of Petersfield Co Wiltshire) = Mary Ann BURLTON spinster by licence 30 Aug 1809 Salisbury St Martin
Baptisms all in St Thomas
William born 31 Jul 1810 baptised 8 Jan 1812
Edward baptised 8 Jan 1812
Ann born 13 Sep 1812 baptised 23 Apr 1815
Jane born 10 Apr 1815 baptised 23 Apr 1815
Jane born 14 Feb 1817 baptised 27 Feb 1817
Jane born 25 Mar 1818 baptised 10 Jan 1821
Thomas born 27 Mar 1820 baptised 10 Jan 1821
Sarah Mary born 1 Jul 1822 baptised 29 Jan 1823
George born 4 Sep 1824 baptised 15 Dec 1824
Emma born 17 Sep 1826 baptised 17 Jan 1827
Charlotte born 13 Jan 1829 baptised 14 May 1829
Charles born 17 Jul 1830 baptised 26 Jan 1831
Frances (Male) 16 Apr 1834 baptised 14 May 1834
Kris :)
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Perhaps we are looking in the wrong place
http://salisburycathedral.co.uk/history.close.php
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/WIL/SalisburyCathedral/index.htm
I can only see Cathedral marriages to 1812 and nothing showing but as Hester was not born till 1827 her parents marriage is possibly after this time.
I see this family I have provided in the census in St Thomas - no Hester, so I don't think it is the correct family. :'( Does your Hester/Esther appear in the UK Census? I have not had any luck locating her in 1841 or 1851.
Kris :)
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I am still looking Alan. Does she become Esther Liddell (wife of Frederick) a miller/baker from Pewsey? I can see them in 1851 and 61 - 1851 Esther 24 b Salisbury, 1861 Esther 35 b Close Salisbury. Looks like although they move to Hampshire where Frederick then works on the Docks, she is pretty consistant with her name, age and place of birth. (apart from 1901 where both suggest Pewsey)
In 1841 I am just having no luck at all. The best I can come up with is Hester JAMES aged 15 at the close - residing with Ann JAMES 55 Ind, and George JAMES 11 HO107/1190/8 Folio 6 Page 5 address just Close. in the parish of The Close of The Canons of The Cathedral Church Next door is William James 30 Shoe maker and family.
Kris :)
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Hello Kris,
MANY THANKS for your efforts so far, they are much appreciated.
Yes, Esther (Hester) does marry Frederick Liddall (Liddell) in 1849 at Marlborough. They were my 2xGt Grandparents (My Mother was a Liddall).
Like you, I haven't been able to locate her in 1841. Did she perhaps become pregnant and "disappear" around that time ?
Another couple of points worth considering are : -
1) On her marriage cert. in 1849, although she says her father was WILLIAM, she gives his occupation as Carpenter, (not Butcher as is William & Mary Ann), and not deceased. No family names among the witnesses.
However,
2)There is a gap between the children of William & Mary Ann around 1827-8.
Do any of these suggestions trigger any further lines of thought ?
Thank you, Regards, Alan.
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Hi Alan,
I really don't think this couple are the parents. Their normal range of gaps between these children is a little over 2 years which is what this gap is. As you say is he is a butcher, not a carpenter as suggested by Esthers marriage certificate, and we have good coverage for baptisms of 13 children, no Esther and there is no sign of Esther in 1841. Since Esther is consitant with a birth in Close/Salisbury I think you need to check those Cathedral Baptisms, or hope someone can do it for you.
For some reason those James in Close are still playing on my mind. I didn't have any luck finding them in 1851 yesterday. (Will try again today). The only Esther/Hester I can find in later censuses born in Close or Salisbury is yours. Of course this Hester James may not have been born there, as 1841 only suggests Wiltshire. We see at times when a woman remarried the children take the step fathers name for a time often reverting to birth name at time of marriage. (although if there is a chance that happened here, we still have this family next door of William the shoemaker. Now if he is a son this possibility blows out the window)
Kris :)
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Hello Kris,
I've taken your advice and sent for the Cathedral Baptisms. This does seem to be a possibility. If I find anything positive, I'll let you know.
As for the James family, I agree it is quite a coincidence to find a Hester of the right age living in the Close. William next door, however, doesn't help our theory - not sure - . I'm still searching.
Regards, Alan.
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Hi Alan
First, sorry, no Judds in Cathedral registers. But there are two other C of E churches in Salisbury, and of course several others of different denominations.
An alternative way of thinking. If Esther was baptized St Thomas 1827, and her father was William and she was from the Close, it is possible that: she was baptized Emma and changed her name at a later date; she was adopted; William re-married after 1827 and she was his step-daughter.
Good luck
Colin
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Hello Colin,
Many Thanks for your reply and useful suggestions. I was starting to think along similar lines myself. As you rightly stated, there are no Judds in the Cathedral registers.
I'm not certain about St Thomas for her baptism, so I still need to check the other churches thoroughly.
I did wonder whether she could be Emma, later going by a nickname. The only thing which doesn't quite tally, is her father's occupation, but then I suppose that could be a mistake on her part.
From the IGI, it would seem that ESTHER was used several times as a JUDD family name.
I suppose I really need a check on St Thomas Burials & Marriages 1827 onwards, in order to establish whether William remarried.
I'm still searching -
Regards, Alan.
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Hello,
Is there anybody out there who could look up SALISBURY ST MARTIN Baptisms for ESTHER JUDD c1827 ? The IGI covers St Edmunds (no luck there), but not St MARTIN for that period.
Thank You, Alan.
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Hi Alan
It seems your William Judd was baptized Laverstock 7 Dec 1776 and his parents were William Judd of Peters Finger and Sarah Perry of Clarendon Park who married 12 Oct 1771 at Laverstock. [It is probable that the family is descended from Thomas Judd of Winterbourne Gunner who married Edith in 1518]. This date of birth does fit with the age of 60 for the William Judd of Catherine St in the 1841 census; there is no Emma in the 1841.
[the spelling of Peters Finger is interesting because it is in Dorset, whereas Petersfinger is adjacent to Laverstock]
Whilst it is common for people living in and around Laverstock to worship at St. Thomas it seems that, if this is your William, he moved into Catherine St. in Salisbury; it seems that he must have had sufficient money to set up a business. I have not pursued this, but a will for William Judd, butcher, 1849 is recorded in Wiltshire Wills.
[probably a red herring, but there is a marriage for William Judd of Broughton and Mary Ann Bell in Whiteparish 26 July 1824]
Happy hunting
Colin
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hi,
St Thomas church is very close to the Close and is the main Church for the Town, and is very close to Catherine Street. St Martins is about a 10 min walk from the Town Centre.I live in Salisburyso if you need any help ie photo's etc let me know.
nICKY
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Hello,
THANK YOU to Colin & Nicky for your recent additional information. It is much appreciated.
I am still struggling to ascertain for sure which WILLIAM JUDD is HESTER's father.
As Colin points out William the butcher came from Laverstock, where he married Elizabeth Biddlecombe. It appears that, after Elizabeth's death in 1806, he then came via Petersfinger to Salisbury where he married Mary Ann Burlton and settled in Catherine Street. Here they had several children including EMMA born 17/9/1826 (baptised 17/1/1827).
Was she in fact HESTER ? But then, how could she mistake his occupation for a Carpenter ?
Also there was William from Broughton marrying Mary Ann Bell at Whiteparish in 1824.
Similarly, William who married Mary Ann Gray at Netherhampton 1806.
Also William, father of Ann baptised at Wilton 1808.
If anybody could eliminate any of these WILLIAMs from being Hester's father c1827, that would help.
HESTER's baptism would be the key, but maybe it isn't possible.
I'm still searching.
Regards, Alan.
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Hello,
I believe that I may have partially solved the mystery concerning the birth of HESTER JUDD.
It would seem that Kris was on the right track with HESTER JAMES.
It looks like Hester James's parents could have been WILLIAM JAMES & ANN SWEPSON who married at Market Lavington in 1803. From the Sarum Marriage Licence Bonds, William was a Carpenter.
This would then make Colin's theory of "adoption" a possibility.
Maybe the JUDD family lost a baby daughter around 1827, or maybe Hester and the Judd girls were so close friends that she became "adopted" and nicknamed Hester Judd.
Returning to WILLIAM JAMES & ANN SWEPSON, they had at least 4 children in Market Lavington by 1810, but I've so far been unable to trace them until 1841 when they turn up at the Close, Salisbury, with son William next door.
Similarly, I'm not sure of their whereabouts after 1841. (There is a William recorded in the National Burial Index, buried at Market Lavington in 1830 aged 73, - a possibility.)
If anyone knows where they were, or went to, I would be grateful to know.
Most importantly however, the baptism of HESTER JAMES or JUDD still eludes me.
Thanks and regards, Alan.
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Hi Alan
An option for William James as father for Hester is William baptized 30 Dec 1801 at Salisbury St. Thomas with parents Hugh and Jane. Although Hugh was a butcher, this does make it more likely that his son became a craftsman and perhaps a carpenter.
However, this does not fit with the 1841 census wherein Hester seems to be living with her mother Ann, but it could explain how the James family from Lavington turned up in Salisbury if related to Hugh.
I struggle with the idea that Hester James became Hester Judd on her marriage certificate because from my experience I would have expected her to have been given as Hester James akas Hester James, and her father to have been given as William James.
There is much further to go yet
cheers
Colin
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Hi Alan
I have finally had a chance to look at the St. Martins PR. Unfortunately no relevant Judd baptisms.
I also had a chance to look at St. Edmonds. There is another Willaim and Mary Anne, in this case living in Endless Street. There are 3 baptisms:
Eleanor - 3 May 1816
Willaim - 20 Dec 1820
Sarah - 23 May 1825
The father is variously a servant, a porter and a labourer.
So still no Esther in Salisbury churches but there others of different denominations.
A further possibility is Laverstock which seems to be the local church for Peters Finger. Some of the PR is in the IGI but I don't know how it got there and I don't know if it is all there.
Could there be a third William and Mary Anne Judd in Salisbury and district? Seems unlikely.
With a decreasing list of possibilities, Emma remains worth considering. May be the clerk made a mistake entering the name in the register or may be the family changed her name later; pursuing the will of William Judd the butcher could confirm or deny this.
Best wishes
Colin
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Hello Colin,
Many thanks for your work on my behalf regarding HESTER JUDD.
Upon further thought, I must agree that Esther James and Esther Judd being the same person is looking unlikely.
WILLIAM & MARY ANNE JUDD in Endless Street plus 3 baptisms is interesting. Could this be the William who married Mary Ann Gray 10/4/1806 at Netherhampton, followed by the baptism of their daughter Elizabeth 22/7/1811 also at Netherhampton ?
Then there is the William who married Mary Ann Bell in 1824 at Whiteparish. They appear in 1841 to be living at Broughton, Hants, where his occupation is given as "Dealer"
That said, are there any other local Williams not necessarily married to a Mary Ann ? As I only have WILLIAM for Hester's father - but I'm unsure of her Mother's name.
I suppose it's also possible that HESTER wasn't actually born in Salisbury, but merely that her earliest recollections were of living in the"Close" area.
Your suggestion and reasoning regarding Emma does sound good. I have sent for the will of William Judd the butcher, hoping that it may shed some light. If anything positive comes from that, I will let you know.
Just as an aside, ESTHER / HESTER JUDD & FRED LIDDALL were both residing at Marlborough College when they married 4/3/1849. However, in 1851 they have returned to live at East Harnham. Just along the road from there in the Alderbury Union Workhouse are 3 JUDD orphan girls (Jane 16, Ellen 13, Winifred 5, all born at Fisherton). Could this be coincidence ? Or is it possible they may be her siblings / relatives, and she keeping an eye on them.
I'm still searching.
Thanks and kind regards, Alan.
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Hello,
Received the will of WILLIAM JUDD, husband of Elizabeth Biddlecombe & Mary Ann Burlton.
Unfortunately, no fresh leads there. Like most wills, once all the "legalese" is stripped away, there's very little "body" to it. The only thing I learnt is that, apart from leaving most things to Mary Ann, he gave a few pounds to his daur, Elizabeth, who married a James Harrison. Perhaps this may be of assistance to someone.
I'm still searching.
Kind regards to all, Alan.
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Hello,
I've come up with a theory regarding ESTHER/HESTER JUDD.
(Any comments or criticisms welcome).
On her Marriage Cert in 1849, she gives her Father as William, a Carpenter, and not deceased.
From the 1841 census, there is a William Judd (Joiner Journeyman aged approx 40) living at Sculcoates, Yorkshire (not born in the county), with a Frederick Judd aged 10.
In the 1851 census, there is a William Judd (Labourer aged 46) living at Doncaster, Yorks (born in Salisbury), "unmarried".
In the 1861 census, there is a William Judd (Railway Points Man aged 53) living at Bally with Hexthorpe, Doncaster, Yorks (born in Salisbury), "married - wife Jane, from Yorkshire.
Similarly in 1871 &1881, William Judd (Railway Signalman, born in Salisbury)living at Bally with Hexthorpe, wife Jane.
They both appear to have died at some time during the 1880s.
Interestingly, I can't find any record of William Judd & Jane having married between 1851 and 1861.
William's birth would have been c 1807.
Could this have been Hester's Father ?
So far I've found a Wm Judd born 1807 to Francis & Alice at St Martins, Salisbury and also a Wm Judd born 1809 to Thomas & Elizabeth at St Thomas, Salisbury.
He could have married c1826, had Hester, and his wife later possibly died. or not !
If this were to be the case, then Hester could possibly have been adopted and living as "Hester James" at the Close in 1841.
I can't find Frederick Judd born c1831 any more - maybe he was adopted or joined the army ?
Still no Baptism details for Hester, so as yet this is all just a possibility.
Thank You all, and regards Alan.
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If it is any help, I have a very full record of Wiltshire and Hampshire Judds going back 600 years! George Judd, of Salisbury.