RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: chinakay on Wednesday 02 January 08 20:40 GMT (UK)
-
Just off on a mental rabbit track and thought I'd get some input...
We go through so much trouble to gain a single scrap of information about some great-great-great grandfather, but is the scrap more valuable to us than the actual person? We're interested in how he lived, but it's impossible to know what kind of person he was, unless he left behind vast sheafs of letters and diaries, and how often does that happen? So do we have some kind of romanticised ideal about the personalities of our ancestors, a kind of Victorian "The Waltons" scene? Kindly, honest, hard-working people with simple tastes and simple pleasures?
I also know that my ancestors were likely to be curmudgeonly drunken old grouches...but I don't think of them that way. I guess I prefer to think of them like Pinocchio's Giuseppe ;D
How about some other Rootschatters' feelings on this?
Cheers,
China
-
That's my approach,China. I try to read up on all the social and local history going (and fiction) to try to get into their lives. I was lucky with a couple of lines because I had letters but the others I have to imagine from what's available.
I really hate the butterfly collecting mentality of the 'tree' approach. It's no more than collecting train or car numbers :(
That's my rant for tonight - maybe :)
Gadget <dot>
-
Interesting question China.
I have no illusions about my ancestors.
My quest is to find where the cycle of wrongness began, not to pin blame, but to try and understand the circumstances that drive people to certain behaviours. And maybe along the way to see if any broke the cycle.
g a r
-
So do we have some kind of romanticised ideal about the personalities of our ancestors, a kind of Victorian "The Waltons" scene? Kindly, honest, hard-working people with simple tastes and simple pleasures?
I must admit, I do tend to think of them in that way, living in peaceful villages surrounded by their families, rosy-cheecked and happy. Deep down I know that the truth of the matter is that they led very hard lives in heavy industry, were very poor and probably quite miserable as a result of it. And no doubt there were a few wrong uns in there!
(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Angels_and_Demons/devil-0005.gif)
Mind you, I did have TWO great grandfathers who were local preachers! That should offset the bad ones!
(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Angels_and_Demons/praying-angel.GIF)
-
I'm with you g a r, I'm trying to find out the 'why'. I have the usual details, birth, marriage, death . I have a few details, but I'm trying to find out why things were the way the were.
For example, my grandmother was a British Home Child, I want to know what the circumstances were that sent her to a home.
My grandfather was (so I have heard) abusive and committed suicide (fact). What was his life like that caused this behaviour. By the way, the cycle was broken, Dad never once laid a hand on us - he could certainly yell, but never spanked. I haven't asked many details on my grandfather, no-one talks about him (he died long before I was born). Just recently Dad has been giving me little tidbits and trying to help with my family search. My last visit home I showed what work I had completed and Dad disappeared for awhile looking through his personal papers to see if he had anyting to help me (that was a big step for Dad). I'm not certain how to ask about their life growing up, it is a very touchy subject. I can't judge someone I've never met - I am interested in finding out about him and his family. Any words of advice?
Happy New Year
Brenda
-
I really hate the butterfly collecting mentality of the 'tree' approach. It's no more than collecting train or car numbers :(
Yes, exactly right. I found that's what I was doing at first...yay, another name. Then it seemed to me I might as well be sticking pins in a name dictionary and making them up. I began researching historical background.
And yes, gar, breaking the cycle is often where you might find an ancestor emigrating to a new country.
Cheers,
C
-
For me the b.m.d.s are essential, but only as a starting point.
Some time ago I learned the dates and places associated with my gt.gt.gt. grandparents in Scotland. He was a handloom weaver. During my search for information about the flax industry, I could feel nothing but admiration for the people involved.
A plus was discovering that a famous author was born in the same town as my ancestor.
As gar stated, I have no illusions but there are some ancestors whose stories I've uncovered that could cause me to say, 'Glad to know you'.
Kathleen
-
Hello Brenda, Your comments really hit home with me. My Father NEVER wanted to discuss anything about his life in England; all I knew when I started my quest was his birth date and place. Once, as a child, I asked him, rather naively, what religion he was. He winked and told me, "Well, let's just say the Quakers were good people!" For the first few years of my roots quest - long after Dad had died - I really thought he was a Quaker. Then I was fortunate enough to travel to his birth place of Newcastle-on-Tyne and saw the area where he was raised. There on a wall, in concrete, were the words, "Quaker Soup Kitchen." :o Now it all made sense!!!! When my Dad was hungry and there was precious little food on the table -- I knew what he meant!!! Sometimes a picture or an image is, indeed, worth a thousand words. All I can say is that for my experience, consider ALL possible angles and always do complete searching on all siblings, when possible. And, with the help of the marvelous Rootschatters you will have lots of help. Pat
-
Finding events surrounding ancestors is fascinating and keeps throwing me off in all kinds of directions. I foundout that Gt granfather was a special constable in Clerkenwell, West Ham and it turns out that was because of a Fenian bomb attack on the prison.
Same Gt Grandfather died in Colney Hatch Asylum age 55 and was in there at the same time as someone accused of being Jack the Ripper so then you start reading about that and get the feel for Victorian London.
-
Hi Patrexjax, thanks for your words of encouragement. You had an amazing find about your father, finding out about the soup kitchen gives you a whole new outlook on his early life.
I would love to see a pic of my grandfather. I asked Dad (sheepishly) if he had a picture and he said my aunt probably had one, she stayed in the family home and had all of the family 'belongings'. I called dear Auntie and she told me she didn't know but would look in the trunk with all the old stuff. Mom asked her again, she didn't have time to look. Six months later, still nothing. I'm not saying she's not busy, but she doesn't work and does complain that she's at home all the time - you'd think she'd find a minute (do I sound a wee bit bitter). I think she might be worried I'll dig up the ugly family stuff. My intent is not to bring out the negative, but to research the family history - every family has good and bad and that won't change. I'll just plug away and take home my research on my next visit and hopefully get some positive help from dear old Auntie.
Cheers
B
-
I probably do idealise my ancestors.
Take my great great grandmother. She was widowed with a young family, and went on to live to a good old age. Thus I made the assumption that she was a dear old lady.
Then I traced relatives who had met her (her grandchildren). Turns out (not to speak ill of the dead) she was a bit of a witch.
-
Hi Brenda, Yes, by all means, DO talk to your Aunt -- it may very well be that she feels she has to protect someone's honor in the family. When I found my Father in the 1890 census there was another Brother listed that I never knew anything about. So, that was one of the reasons my Dad didn't want to talk about his childhood. Out of wedlock children were not talked about much except in whispers. So, do tred softly -- but DO talk to your Aunt. Just be gentle and don't overwhelm her with lots of dates.....As a senior citizen I can tell you that the dates can get elusive but the other wonderful information she has you need to pull out while she is still with you....You may still get that photo of your grand-dad. I was recently able to reunite via e-mail -- all of the grand-children from my Father's first marriage. The real shocker was, tho, that one of them never knew of any of the other's existence!! He is 70 years old and just discovered that he has six half-siblings!!! He's still in shock -- but happily so. Keep on in your quest. Never give up! Pat
-
Hi Pat,
Congratulations and good work to you - via email you reunited and enlarged a family. A dream come true.
I think I'll take your advice and talk to Auntie. I think a face to face will be better and show her the work I have done. But that will have to wait to I get home next summer - I only get home once or twice each year. The family tree is separate from my booklet which contains photos and a basic details. I have done 'memory' pages for Mom and Dad's brothers and sisters that have died, including their pictures and obituaries. The booklet has 'happy' pictures and nice details of good things. I don't want to upset anyone, but I'd still like to know details.
I called my Mom and asked her point blank why her mother's marriage certificate had her age listed as 21 if she was born in a certain year. Mom said, that's easy she lied!! Of course I asked why and heard the story about the 'wicked step-mother'. Wouldn't it be nice if all questions were answered that easy.
-
Hi Brenda, Yes, it surely appears that many of our female ancestors had "brain lapses" about their ages!! However, I have another "opposite" for you. My Father was 47 when he married my Mother who was 20. (First wife died of uterine cancer). On the marriage license in Illinois my Dad stated he was 35!!!! Apparently he didn't want the clerk to think he was "robbing the cradle!"....But, of course, all of this "stuff" is what makes family history so interesting! Your "happy booklet" sounds like a great idea.... I hope you have an opportunity to have a long chat with your Aunt in private over it. Hunt on!!! :D Pat
-
China,
Thank you for starting this topic. Your post and advice from fellow rootschatters has given me the courage to ask questions I thought were 'forbidden'. I thought about your words and took advice and asked questions. The communication lines are open and questions are being answered.
Because of this topic I called my Dad and asked some questions and was given some new information about the life of his father (one tidbit - his father spoke 7 languages - wow!).
thank you and bless you and others who have encouraged me :) :)
Brenda
-
Hi China,
What a good question.
I have to admit I did initially see my ancestors through rose colour specs when I started this obsession hobby. I did for a short while anyway, until reading in black and white what hard lives they led.
For part of my family tree, I seem to have developed a fondness based on a connection to where they lived in the 1800's and me stumbling across the place years ago, by complete coincidence. So they will probably always be rose tinted for me, what ever I find, fortunately nothing bad so far.
Not the same can be said for characters in other parts of the tree, a womanizing jack the lad and a grumpy old man who would rather be in the pub, they are all long gone now, but I wouldn't have found this info out from records anywhere.
May be if we knew what some people were really like we wouldn't bother researching them!
Pipkim ;)
-
I think it's very easy to idealise our ancestors, and see them as "victims" especially if they were poor ag labs or down trodden folk in and out of the workhouse. But I expect, like now, there were the good and the bad, the hard workers and the plain lazy - I don't suppose I've got all the good people and none of the bad in my tree.
I expect a lot would have irritated me as well, much as the living ones do at times! ;)
Carole
-
Yes I supposed I DID idealise my Ancestors but my Great
Aunt before she died set me straight, she had done quite a
bit of research on her maternal side, so told me lots of
information, I then told her the information I had found on
this side, Yes all was great.
The I mentioned the her paternal side and the information I
had on this, she was not interested and commented what
do you wanted to know about that side for, they were a
bad lot!.
I havent found anything scandalous YET!, but guess which
one keeps dragging me back to try to delve a bit deeper?
Is that me just being nosey!
Jinks
-
My father's parents divorced when he was a toddler and he never saw his mother again.
This was the first family I researched when I started a few years ago. My father and his parents were deceased by then.
All I had was a birth date (off by one year) for my grandmother and nicknames for her parents. I eventually was able to learn quite a bit, not only on my direct line but on the many branches of my grandmother's family tree. (The whole family is meaningful to me; not one is ever just a name.)
I contacted the man who is the researcher for my great-grandfather's family name. He has put his tree online and descendants are always sending him info to add to it (with their permission). This man helped me in three significant ways. He is the reason why I always like to help other people with their genealogy (it's also my nature to be helpful, but he set the example for me).
Through dogged persistence, lots of work and lots of money, I was able to obtain vital documents that contained some answers without giving me the ultimate answer to the question why. It turned out that my grandmother and her siblings were abandoned by their mother. My great-grandparents went on to remarry new spouses (although not legally) and didn't tell the children from their second marriages about their first families.
Every time I learned something new, it was invariably sad. My mother kept saying, "Are you sure you want to keep doing this? Don't you want to find a happier hobby?"
I, too, wanted to know where this unhappiness all started and why. Although I learned an awful lot, I still don't know why, although I can make a few guesses.
Sometimes I play a mental game: I ask myself, how far back would I have to go in time for my father to have been alright?
- His parents.
- His grandparents.
- His great-grandparents.
But if they had made all the right choices, my parents wouldn't have met and I wouldn't be here.
As others have said, the most important thing is that the cycle of (whatever) stops.
Also, I notice a huge difference in what we will discuss versus what our parents or aunties will discuss. In the past, people wouldn't want to discuss the unpleasant stuff with some of us, although it seems they all knew about it.
If there are still people in the family who are older than you, try to talk to them and see what they will share. In the case of aunts and uncles, you could also talk to their children. There's a lot of family history contained in memories and stories that are never written down and are not found in BMDs. These risk being lost to time. In some cases, relatives might think that is ultimately for the best, but I'd rather know about it and make up my own mind. ;)
Regards,
Josephine
-
What a thoughtful post, Josephine. Especially the bit about talking to older family members.
I didn't start this hobby until long after there was no-one left to talk to. All I have is a couple of cousins, and one isn't interested and doesn't answer my emails, and I have hopes but no email address for the other. Some day I'll call him. Soon.
Cheers,
China
-
Thank you, China.
I've also had experiences where people who weren't family but whose families were close to my great-grandfather's have told me interesting things about my own family. They also shed light on some erroneous family stories. Not only that, but they very kindly sent me some photos that I'd never seen!
One person got in touch with me as a result of a query I placed in their local newspaper. I was put in touch with the other person via the local genealogical society.
Last year, when we visited their area, they (the unrelated folks) took me on a tour and showed me the houses where my great-grandparents and grandparents had lived. They also accompanied us to the cemetery and helped us find my family's graves.
It was great. Obviously, they are good folk.
Further to the topic of idealizing our ancestors, I think sometimes the more we know, the less likely it is. For example, I was not impressed with some of the information contained in my grandfather's military record. Let's just say it didn't cast a favourable light on his character. Although I already knew of some of his flaws, I could have lived without the information and the unhappy implications for the rest of his family.
Oh, dear. :o
If you knew me, you'd never guess that I come from such a long line of "black sheep", LOL.
Regards,
Josephine
-
I totally agree, Eileen.
I've said something similar to my husband about this. It all depends on who you ask. One's own personality always plays a part in one's perception of others.
If my husband asked a particular relative (who shall remain nameless, LOL) to describe me, he wouldn't recognize me! And my husband knows me better than anyone!
Regards,
Josephine
-
Hard to idealise workhouse-dwelling, imprisoned, dying in asylums, illegitimate, syphilitic is it not?
They are what OH and self have between us. But I love them all and am fascinated at the terrible lives so many of my/our ancestors had to endure.
I think this is why I do FAMILY HISTORY , not genealogy!
-
In the beginning I did, but once the bad news came rolling in I stopped. Actually, I almost gave up on the whole project at one point but I took some time off, stepped back and decided on a new approach.
There are at least 9 Peter Copelans in the family, thus the guy in my avatar became "Peter the Pirate", another became Peter the Pauper, another Peter the Quaker, etc, etc. I think that in order to compile as thorough and as honest a family tree as possible, it's important distance oneself somewhat. Not only that but to look at it with a sense of humor.
There are some very admirable people in my family and some not so admirable. Since there's very little information about most of them, it would do them a disservice to apply "good" or "evil" labels to them.
My great grandfathers were known to my parents and their cousins but I have yet to have any real sense of who they were as so much of the information is conflicting. Other than the fact that one of them was the town drunk.
We can only document what we find.
-
Do I idealise my ancestors? Well if I could find them maybe I would :D My family emigrated to Canada when I was 4 and a bit. I'm a clean slate. Have no opinions about anyone because I know nothing :)
However recently, I did manage to get in touch with some cousins through Ancestry...one of my cousins had some bad opinions about one of our uncles through marriage :( Never knew the man and never will because he's dead but now I have an opinion about him...granted it was a second hand opinion but I have that in the back of my mind about him now....relatives are dangerous :o :o :o :o :o
mab ....still in the dark hoping to be enlightened :)
-
Before I started investigating my ancestors I didn't idealize them. I assumed I would find a mixed bag of villains, base-born, consumptive paupers etc... :-\
To my great surprise I found I was totally wrong. The were inventive, adventurous, brave and healthy survivors of what must have been a hard world.
I've become very fond and proud of them all. ;D
-
Well it was one ancestor in particular who set me off on this wonderful hobby. I grew up with a large oil painting of minister on the wall and a Staffordshire figurine of the same man. (incongruous in a 1930's semi) When I asked about him, it became clear that my father's sister and her father thought he was a wonderful man and that he was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
I did a lot of research and yes he was an interesting man, methodist minister - one of the first who brought Methodism to Wales in the Welsh language and then I turned up a little problem. I discovered that he had left the church rather suddenly in the early 1820's after a life in the ministry - why? became the burning question.
I knew his first wife had died and he had remarried and after many years of not being able to find their marriage, a kind person on here was able to provide the information and I discovered that they had married 2 months before their son (my direct ancestor) was born. Obviously this was the reason he had left the church.
I was pleased!! No longer was he an icon - just a normal human being struggling with life. I was also pleased that all my relatives who had idolised him were also dead, as I don't think they could have coped with the information.
Sian
-
Hi China,
I have been fascinated by what my ancestors did for a living, as well as all the other things that you find out as you go along.
I contacted one chap who was researching the name of my G.G.Father and got loads of lovely photos and my family line going back years.
He is a Scientist as are my children, then I found that a Cousin on the other side of my family had a Scientist Daughter. I have found Policemen as well on both sides of the family and this is what makes it all so interesting to me! He is also a Cousin I had not heard about! What a bonus!
Of course life changes with the generations, but I wonder if the GGGFather who was a Farm Bailiff and all the Ag labs on one side also helped to make my Son a Farmer as well. It must be in his Genes, they would have been so proud of him I am sure.
I have all the portraits of my Ancestors [three generations]hanging on the wall up the stairwell, this may not be a stately home but they are the people who made me the person I am ::) Like it or not!
Rabbit B ;)
-
What a wonderful topic. Yes, I think some of them I absolutely idealize. My gg grandmother Sarah Scott Hayes (who I have written about before) I definitely have rosey pictures of her, but she grew up illegitimate with some family that apparently had a very loose connection to her, possibly their SIL's bastard daughter. She crossed an ocean and married by the time she was 19. She died at 24, with two daughters, and possibly 2 more children who I can't trace. I like to think her husband (my gg granddad) loved her beyond limits. He lived until 1943 (she died in 1888) and he never remarried. But who really knows. I never will.
The opposite of iealising someone is a great-grandmother of mine. My mom didn't know her too well because her dad left when she was about 2. Her grandmother tried to have a relationship with her, as much as my bitter grandmother would let her. but my great-granny was very much into appearances, buying expensive, nonsensical presents for her grandchildren, pushing my mom to be a debutante (I kid you not) and all those grandiose things. I have, in my research, found cousins who remember her and say she was quite a ... hard character, preachy Catholic in a Lutheran world, hard, very much above her "station" and bitter.
But I read a "fiction" short story she wrote in the 50s and let me tell you, I think life was really hard for her on an emotional lvel and to make a long story intriguing, my uncle wasn't her biological grandchild, she knew it and tried to love him anyway, so maybe she tried her best.
And maybe that is the message of then and NOW: we aren't perfect, but we do our best.
Kath
-
Hello...It's hard to idealize someone you have never met...to most of us I suppose our ancestors are only names on certificates etc......what you really need is a newspaper report...! This is about my great grandad and his 1st wife....to me he was just a fluffy old man in a photograph....tends to rather eradicate the rose tinted specs syndrome that I had of him :'( and goes some way to explain some later disfunctionality in his children :( :(
Keith
-
Hi Keithchr,
What a very sad story for the children, I was taught never to believe anything of what you read, nothing of what you hear, no one knows what this family had to go through in terms of deprivation.
I don't think that any of us should judge what we did not know. Either way it is a very sad story.
Rabbit B ;D
-
Yes Keith, I have one of those too.
It's from a New Zealand newspaper, all about how my G-G-Grandmother was accused of disobeying the orders of the ship's captain. Her name was Elizabeth Davis, she in return accused the captain of assaulting her. There were several court cases over a couple of weeks, ending with the newspaper's prime reporter or editor denigrating Sidney Herbert's Female Emigration Fund and the "Ladies" of the 'Stately' were described as "the sweepings of the streets of London".
The incident was over a cup of water, asked for and refused, while the ship was becalmed for 17 days in tropical waters. (1851) Elizabeth had defended the young girl who was thirsty.
I was reading this on the internet and was very angry. OH was reading over my shoulder and said, "That's where you get it from then."
I rounded on him, "What!?!" I snapped.
"Your heroism." he replied, and he meant it.
I don't idealize Elizabeth Davis but I do see her as a real person. She went on to raise 5 children in NZ. She left her husband and ran away to Australia, was reunited with her husband and had 2 more children. She was a dressmaker and milliner who lived in the town of Hill End during the gold rush days. She couldn't have been a faithful wife as my G-G-Grandfather divorced her in 1880.
In other words, she was human.
Leonie.
-
its a bit like the 'big hearted yorkshire folk' myth.
Sure there are lots of them but there are also plenty of bigoted, old fashioned, unfriendly, untrusting types.
internal family feuds must have been commonplace. Howards comprised 10% of the village of holme WRY in the 1800s but I wonder how many of them were 'on speaking terms' with each other - not a lot if my two aunties - who managed to maintain a feud until one died in her seventies recently - are anything to go by.
Even relatives who are lifelong friends tend to fall out whan wills start favouring one over another (in their eyes)
And the local slang is full of words which are judgements on otthers - some of the slang terms seem to be rooted in the early 20th century so you have a link right there.
Even now residents of holme call it "hown" ore "holn" which is thought to be of the viking era.
"leet geen" means "lightly given" which is not a compliment - therse plenty of other examples