RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Staffordshire => England => Staffordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: simonwpb on Saturday 29 December 07 10:46 GMT (UK)
-
Hello all, sort of a strange request...
I just tracked down my 16 year old GF William Smith in the 1901 Census. He was living at No 3 South Back Wall Street in Stafford. His father has 3 different wives in the 1881, 1891 and now 1901 Census! My GF was born of the 1st wife, who then died in a later childbirth. I am trying to sort out the younger half-siblings.
There is a 14-year old Florence Smith that was not in my 1891 Census, so that begs the question of who was her mother? I don't know what happened to Hannah, wife #2.
What is the best way to determine who were the parents/mother of the younger children?
The 1901 Census shows William Smith (40) Helen Smith (38)
Amy Smith (20)
William Smith (16)
Florence Smith (14) Wolverhampton
Nellie Smith (age 8 ) Worcester
Walter Smith (5) Worcester
Lilian Smith (3) Stafford
Ethel Smith (4 mo) Stafford
I also suspect there to be a Margaret born after 1901.
PS. To confuse the pot, the original family name was William Rayner, not Smith
Any advice is welcome!
- Simon
-
hi simon
you don't half pick 'em ;D
start with the 1901 census
if you are sure this is your grandfather then this should be your starting
point
if his father was married to helen then the marriage date should give
a clue to their children
be aware that some of the children might be stepchildren(i.e. the mother
was married before)
with 3 marriages this is going to be some task and might be
expensive to prove as apart from son william any of the children(apart from
the youngest) could be stepchildren
dates of marriages and dates of death for wives would narrow down
the field
good luck :)
ev
ps can you provide some info on the 1881 & 1891 census just to be sure
we're all searching for the correct william smith
-
this is so intriguing! I switched off and then came back to it!
Ev,
I found the family as Rayner in 1891.
Simon - Bertie (1891 census) is in a 'school' in 1901 as Bertie Rayner is that right?
I am inclined to agree that Florence could be a stepchild- Helen's daughter. I can't see a death for Hannah Rayner.
Trouble is with Smith as a surname :-\ but there are some possible births of younger children and you could apply for a certificate specifying William as dad.
Whilst William is Cheshire born Hannah is Staffordshire born so presumably that is why they went to Staffordshire.
very interesting ;D
heywood
-
Thanks for the help on this one... my ancestors certainly didnt make it easy...
First, this is definitely my family, as I have young William's Militia Attestation record with the same address, it was not easy finding a Smith who was a Rayner in Lancs 10 years previously... Note he changes the birth locations for both Wms in 1901 as well
I have not found Bertie Rayner in school in 1901, where was this?
In 1891 William Rayner is living with Hannah (Pass) in Warrington, Lancs with Amy, William and 1/2 sibling Bertie
In 1881 William Raynor is a tailor living in Warrington with his wife "Elisa" (Elizabeth Ann Grant) and new baby Amy.
How can I trace 14 year old Florence to the correct mother? So many other questions, any help is really a blessing.
- Simon
-
I am assuming that this is your Bertie and of course it may not be - (age slightly out) and you would wonder why? - seems to be like the Workhouse.
1901 RG13; Piece: 2725; Folio: 134; Page: 10
District Schools West Bromwich
Bertie Rayner 9 yrs birthplace unknown
As for Florence I was wondering if she belonged to Helen - but trying to trace that connection is difficult.
Do you have an explanation for the change of name- just wondering so please don't feel obliged. ;)
-
I see Bertie in the school... Impossible to say whether it is Hannah's son but sure does lead to all sorts of speculation.
With regards to the reason for the name change, that is my ultimate question. I had assumed I became a Smith because my GF enlisted in the army underage, but that is now not the case!
Why would a tailor in Lancashire move to Staffordshire and change his family's last name? My speculation has three possibilities: abandonment, a criminal act, or avoidance of debt. The truth he took with him to the grave, and my father and his siblings never knew the answer.
Perhaps if I make contact with some of these other siblings the answer may be with them. I would like to find a marriage for Amy, as that was Bill's only full sister.
If this is Bertie in a workhouse, the question begs what happened to Hannah?
A genealogical mystery,
- Simon
-
It looks as though Eliza died June quarter 1887 and a Hannah Pass was married December quarter 1887 in Warrington. (I know you have this but I'm thinking :-\ )
and Florence was born 1887 Wolverhampton (so census would have us believe).
The question is- did Hannah go back to Staffordshire for the baby or does Florence belong to Helen?
Hannah was a servant in Warrington in 1881 - no value but just found this info. ;D
-
Simon,
in my meanderings I have come across this:
1891 RG12; Piece: 2236; Folio 42; Page 4
the Callow family in Wolverhampton.
Amongst these are :
Andrew Callow 15 yrs (he is a boarder with the Smiths in 1901) and
Helen Callow b 1864 Birmingham.
She could well be Helen Smith of 1901.
Sadly there is no Florence aged about 3 with her. :'(
-
Heywood,
I appreciate the help!
I have the death cert for Eliza Ann.
William Rayner’s first wife died Jun Qtr 1887 at age 35.
In the Qtr following of the same year, is a marriage:
Sep Qtr 1887 Warrington . Vol 8c, page 198
Hannah Pass is found in 1881 Census:
1881: Warrington, Lancashire
Ref: RG11 / Piece 3794 / Folio: 97 / Pg 45
Address: 5(?) Liverpool Road
Servant: Hannah PASS 19, unm, b Wednesbury, Staffordshire
In Employ of William D JEANS & family, age 46, Solicitor
If the age for Florence is correct, she was born in 1887, another reason to believe she is Helen's daughter, not Hannah's.
It makes sense that William Rayner moved to Staffordshire with Hannah, then something happened to her. Name change could have happened either place. There is a significant age gap between Florence and Nellie...
-
Looking at the workhouse school in West Bromwich NE District School...
There are 13 census pages of approx 300 children with a staff of 18 people all living at the school. Sort of an orphanage I suppose. Bertie could have been there since he was very little, if his mother died and his father was unable to take care of him?
Simon
-
yes I think that too re Florence but I am inclined to think that Helen is Helen Callow- and there is no child with her in 1891 :-\
-
just going back to 1891 - Helen is indexed as Callow but is actually Bishop on the census form. (and a tailoress).
Free BMD
September quarter 1884 Wolverhampton Robert Thomas Bishop and Helen Collow - possible spouses.
BUT still no Florence (looked for Bishop)- well there are but not with Helen.
-
Thanks a bunch Heywood, you have already helped me a lot :)
I always forget to look at the next page, and did not see the boarders. Their neighbour at No. 4 Back Wall was a retired police sergeant... if my GGF was "on the run" he would have been quite nervous!
So the theory so far is,
William and Hannah Rayner -his 2nd wife- left Warrington, Lancs and moved to the Midlands perhaps to be closer to her family due to illness of family issues.
Hannah became sick or died and her son Bertie ended up in an orphanage in West Bromwich.
William Rayner and his 2 children Amy and William changed their names to Smith for an unknown reason
William the elder then married for the 3rd time a presumably widowed Mrs. Helen Bishop maiden name Callow.
Lots of lines of investigation here...
Need to verify relationships
In 1891 was Florence Bishop ? age ~4 living with other Callow or Bishop relatives?
Dates of possible BMD's
Was Nellie Smith b. 1893 Wolverhampton William and Helen's daughter?
- Simon
-
younger children are perhaps Helen's I would suspect.
I have scoured the censuses for Florence.
Not to bore you but I had a wonderful theory - had found a Minnie Bishop- same age as Florence- in hospital. Had found Robert Bishop (at least a Robert Bishop) with a sister Minnie - hence family name. Then I think i found Minnie as an adopted daughter in 1901.
However, a Robert Bishop of similar age was a boarder at one time in Liverpool aged 17 yrs and guess what - he was a tailor ;D ;D ;D
I would certainly hope to find a sympathetic clerk who would check some of those births to see if they had father William and possible mother Helen- see what turns up.
best wishes with it all and lots of luck
heywood
-
Thanks Heywood, I know you put a lot of time into this mystery.
I may order a couple of prospective BMD's to see if I get lucky.
There are 2 possible deaths for a Hannah Smith (could not find a decent match for a Hannah Rayner)
2Q 1892 in Chorlton Lancs and 3Q 1892 in Walsall, Staffs.
Florence is at this point unexplainable.
One curiosity I found was a Nellie Bishop Rayner born 4Q 1893. Correct age for Nellie Smith and includes two of the surnames, but this record was from Halifax Yorks., and how do you end up with a Nellie Bishop Rayner?
The only other evidence I have is anecdotal from my GM, who said she met William and "a woman who was not his mother" in 1918 Blackburn Lancs; children included Walter, an upholsterer and several daughters including a Margaret.
I will keep pursuing to try to unravel the relationships and what happened to his 2nd wife, and perhaps along the way correctly identify the siblings and find out the reason for the name change.
Happy New Year,
Simon
-
Amemdment:
Ignore most of what follows and then read the addendum - I think I am slowly losing my brain cells- I thought I was on a winner here but then went back to census and realised why I had discarded Florence Victoria!
Original text:
Wow: That rang a bell (I am in Lancashire) - your mum seems to be right because I had seen a marriage:
have just checked up and as ever - a bit tenuous but we must try everything in this game ;D
Marriage: Burnley Lancs Vol 8e pg 503 1907
Florence Victoria Bishop possible spouse - Richard Bridge or George Roberts
I had looked because I had seen this birth but searched for her with no result.
Births: Florence Victoria Bishop 1887 Wolverhampton Vol 6b pg 548
There is one entry in 1901 for same name in Berkshire but wrong age and there is a birth.
Chorlton is Manchester so I suppose Walsall seems more likely re Hannah but Smith ... :-\
well that's a bit of encouraging news for a Sunday morning. Sending for the certificate for Florence will show I suppose that she is absolutely nothing to do with you as a blood relative but would place her in the wider context of William. I wonder then did Helen decamp to Lancashire with the children?
Similarly Florence's marriage certificate may have a family witness - alternatively wait till 1911 census comes out and all may be revealed!
Addendum:
1891 has Florance Victoria Bishop with parents William and Agnes living outside Doncaster with lots of other siblings. Oh b*****
-
Definitely my final comment -
found the other Florence in Burnley in 1901 together with her family
parents in 1891 were William J E and Agnes S Bishop- 1901 parents Ernest and Ellen.
He obviously used his 'E' name and has a new wife ::)
-
I guess this secret has lasted a 100 years, it will keep a while longer. Sorry to have given you such a twister! Just be glad I didnt ask for help on my other GGF.
Up until 3 days ago I only knew of the William and Hannah Rayner family in Warrington and could not find anyone in 1901, so I assumed the family continued life as Rayners in Lancs., while my GF joined the army. I really have come a long way this week.
The breakthrough was receiving Bill's Military Attestation record from Kew using the regimental number inscribed on the rim of his South Africa medal.
Now with your help I have Callows and Bishop to consider, their 1st marriage and offspring an important clue; a lost child found in an orphanage; with some digging should confirm the rest as Helen's children. If Bertie went to the school, I cannot image any other children of Hannah's being raised by Wm&Helen.
If I get any corroborating evidence in the mail, I will let you know.
Simon
-
I am new to Rootschat. Saw a past question on info you are wishing to find from the book Victorian Arena. Thomas Green’s aka Toney Green Equestrian Clown and Showman. Born in Birmingham. Had a brother called George. If you email me (*)
I can take a picture of the page
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least two postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
-
Noeleen,
Thanks. On review I do not believe that this Thomas Green is connected to my research of Edward Green and family... :( In 1861 my Green family of performers were in the London area. Interesting though!
The original thread discussion is below:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=266272.msg1511000#msg1511000
Simon