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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: justmej on Wednesday 26 December 07 23:20 GMT (UK)
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I know this is not a particularly clear picture but, was wondering if anyone could tell me anything about the uniform my grandfather is wearing? Unfortunately, although I have other similar pics, cannot find one showing the side of his cap.
Could this be the uniform of a Lieutenant Colonel?
Thank you
justmej
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Definitely an officer. Do you have any pictures which show his shoulder tabs. If you have, then by looking at the numbers of pips or crowns you will be able to work out his rank.
Regards
Andrew
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Andrew
Thanks for your interest. Does this one help at all? I have an album of pictures, taken at the same event, but unfortunately, non that seem particularly clear. On some of them, are lots of army personnel, although do not know if they are from the same regiment or not. He was in the Royal Engineers, at some time, but unsure if this was his regiment at the time the photos were taken.
justmej
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Yes, looks like a pip and a crown, which means he was a Lieutenant Colonel. If you have any pictures in which his lapel badge is clearer, then I might be able to work out his regiment.
He has a good number of ribbons on his chest, close ups of those will give an idea of his military career.
What was his full name and when was he born ? With this data I should be able to look him up in the Army Lists.
Regards
Andrew
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Andrew
Thank you for the confirmation of the uniform and welcome to RootsChat; a bit late with the welcome, so my apologies for that!
Unfortunately, I cannot find any others pics that give a clearer view of his ribbons, or lapel badge. Not sure if you will be able to see anything from these two?
His full name was James Patterson Oliver and he was born 03 Jan 1894 and I know he served in both wars. I have a small faded pic, which he signed and wrote 'Cairo 1917'.
justmej
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Leave him with me, I will have a look to see what I can find.
Regards
Andrew
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This looks like his medal card ! looks interesting !! :)
Medal card of Oliver, James Patterson
Army Cyclist Corps
55
Private
Durham Light Infantry
1665
Lance Corporal
Loyal North Lancashire Regiment
Lieutenant
Date
1914-1920
http://www.rootschat.com/links/02ff/
Annie :)
Just as an aside :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant-Colonel_%28UK%29
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Yes, I saw that as well. I had a go at finding him in the London Gazette, but no joy yet (it does have a somewhat strange logic engine!)
His Officers records will not be at NA as he continued to serve after the end of WW1. A systematic search of the Army lists will reveal the bones of his career. Some of the larger city libraries have them in their reference sections.
Andrew
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Well the photo is post 1944 as he is wearing a coloured field service cap...
I did find a James Patterson Oliver becoming a 2nd Lt in 1943, on what appears to be the General List...
Now the CFSC...It's not RE as that one only had piping around the top, not the sides...
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Thanks Andrew, I really appreciate your help!
Annie, once again ;D thank you for the links. I'm impressed - you are pretty good at finding these things! Have downloaded it but, embarrassed to say, don't understand much of it :-[
Is regiment no. different to service no.? If so, would I necessarily need to find his service no. to obtain his records? Finally, as he appears to have been in different regiments, would all of his records be kept together, or would I need to apply for them separately?
Scrimnet, I owe you an apology, after realising I had not dated the original photo, which you quite rightly say, was taken post 1944; it was taken in 1946, at Datteln, Germany. Can I ask what the CFSC stands for?
I'm so impressed with how knowledgeable you all are on here....
Justmej
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Hi Justmej !
If you post the medal card on here ... somebody may come along and read it for you ! :D :D :D
Annie :)
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Am I allowed to do that Annie? If so, will probably have to be tomorrow now, as my computer seems to be acting itself :'( and although I have printed a copy off, I have not managed to save it yet. Will scan copy tomorrow, on OH computer, as this computer is definitely misbehaving for some reason.
Scrimnet so kindly dated that photo for me, which I am particularly grateful for, although I posted it mainly to confirm that his uniform was that of a Lieutenant Colonel and I was hoping to find his regiment from it. These photos were taken when he opened a childrens' hospital, in Germany, which I've previously mentioned, on another thread, a while ago BUT, I just don't know how to get the link to that :-[.
In the book I have, he was referred to as Colonel and yet I understood him to be Lieutenant Colonel, hence the reason for posting the pic, although extremely grateful for all the information.
justmej
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Here is the London Gazette entry for Lt. J. P. Oliver relinquishing his commision at the end of WW1. The date of 1st September 1921 was when a lot of the "for the Duration" officers were discharged from the Army.
London Gazette 20-12-1921
War Office,
20th December, 1921.
REGULAR FORCES.
INFANTRY.
Service Battalions.
The undermentioned relinquish their commissions on completion of service:
1 Sept. 1921
Loyal R.
Temp. Lt. J. P. Oliver, and retains the rank of Lt.
http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.aspx?pdf=32555&geotype=London&gpn=10437&type=ArchivedSupplementPage&exact=J.%20P.%20Oliver
Here he is rejoining the Army as a Second Lieutenant:
London Gazette 19-2-1943
GENERAL LIST, INFANTRY.
The undermentioned to be 2nd Lts.:
1st Dec. 1942:
Lt. James Patterson OLIVER (250681).
http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/ViewPDF.aspx?pdf=35910&geotype=London&gpn=878&type=ArchivedSupplementPage&exact=Patterson%20Oliver
Steve.
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Here we go .... here's our starter for ten !! :D :D :D :D :D
I'll be quiet now !!
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Wow! What a star you are Steve.........thank you so very much for these. Of course, this poses yet another question - are the nos. in brackets his service no?
The date of 1st Dec 1942, also explains the reason why he'd given notice in 1942, to leave his position of mining under-manager, which I came across mentioned in a newspaper article.
No Annie, you don't need to be quiet ;D ;D ;D!!!
justmej
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Yes I do ! .... I have to be quiet and learn !! ;)
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I'm more WW1 than WW2, but I believe that the number was not technically a Service number, but was the number by which his records were tracked. Not a great deal of difference, really! I think it was more along the lines of the officer not needing to quote this as "name, rank and number"
Then, again, I said WW2 was not my forte.
Steve.
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His full name was James Patterson Oliver and he was born 03 Jan 1894 and I know he served in both wars. I have a small faded pic, which he signed and wrote 'Cairo 1917'.
justmej
So Steve ... any chance of finding anything from WW1 .... did he come up through the ranks then ?? where would be the best place to start looking ??
Annie
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In the book I have, he was referred to as Colonel and yet I understood him to be Lieutenant Colonel, hence the reason for posting the pic, although extremely grateful for all the information.
justmej
Any colonel, be he a half (Lt) colonel or full colonel, is referred to as "Colonel", mainly by other officers; to an "other rank" he would be simply "sir"! (well...sometimes, "colonel, sir")
Funny...I've done a trawl through the London Gazette, and there is just the one entry from 1917-1979 and there is just the one record I found earlier...I would have thought he would have retired or went onto the list of reserve/retired officers sometime....
Sorry when I posted re the Coloured Field Service Cap (CFSC) I thought that initials would do when referred to again!
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Don't forget that you can contact the MoD for a copy of his Army file:
http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html
Steve.
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And once again thanks Steve and Scrimnet!
Well, that explains why he was referred to as "Colonel" and "sorry" I never picked up on the CFSC; quite obvious really, once pointed out to me! :-[
Am hoping to send for his Army file, so thanks for the link!
justmej
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I have a jpeg of his 1901 census return, but it is too big to attach.
The details are:
Father James M Oliver aged 41, coal miner, living at 84 Quarry House, Haltwhistle, Northumberland.
Mother: Elizabeth Ann aged 40, 9 children, 6 sons, 3 daughters
James P was born in Featherstone, Cumberland, the third son.
Andrew
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Hi Andrew
Thanks - I do already have the 1901 census return for the family, at Quarry House, Haltwhistle and have also managed to trace both families of his parents, James Richard and Elizabeth Ann, right back to the first census. Have been fortunate enough to visit and look inside the house where his parents lived in 1881, when they married (Elizabeth Ann's parents house), thanks to the kindness of the present owner.
justmej
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I have downloaded the form to apply for my grandfather's service details and now realise that I do not have a great deal of information, to enter on the form, other than his name and d.o.b. As it asks for 'rank held on discharge' and as I don't know when his discharge was, would putting 'Lt. Colonel' suffice?
A bit more, that I have discovered (trawling through old newspapers!!) is that in late 1943, he was Captain & Adjutant in the Home Guard. Also, in 1948, he is stated as 'Colonel, Control Commission' on my mother's marriage cert.
justmej
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Ah...CCG!!
Control Commission Germany...Give that a Google!!!
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Will do.......thanks!
justmej
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I suppose that it is possible the insignia on the arm of the uniform could be that of the CCG (British Occupation Zone) Germany:
A blue flag, on the canton a shield, a light blue cross on red with the golden, interlaced letters "CCG
I believe they had their own cap badge and lapel badges for officers, the uniform is believed to have been a mixture of khaki and blue - a bit of a ragbag assortment from all accounts. I suppose some of the ranks could have been honorary, along with the civil servants etc etc. That would probably account for him not being traceable through the LG ?
Neil
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Thanks Neil
Found this one, on the arm of a female's uniform, which was taken at the same event. As mentioned earlier, do not have any clearer ones of my grandfather's insignia, although, I can just make out, what appears to be a cross with possible letters on it.
justmej
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This is the CCG insignia and a picture of a uniform button also.
Neil
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Thanks for the showing the pics Neil. Have searched through all the photos I have, but still cannot find any that were taken close enough, to see either the buttons or insignia :(
Just hope the limited information, I have for him, will be enough to trace his Army records.
justmej