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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Surrey Lookup Requests => Surrey => England => Surrey Completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: Kiwi007 on Monday 10 December 07 09:16 GMT (UK)
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hi List,
I am researching the TURNER and LIFFORD families and recently had a look up for 1871 which showed my James TURNER and his wife Ann ( nee LIFFORD) with their children and what seems to be an error on the census - a John LEE, 73, wifes father, single, b Streatham Surrey
James and Ann in 1871
RG10; Piece: 846; Folio: 97; Page: 62
Clifton Road, Woodland Cottages, Croydon, Surrey
I am wondering if someone would be kind enoiugh to check the census to see if it really says LEE etc.
Ann LIFFORD was b abt 1821 and her sister, Mathilda abt 1825 in West Ham. I have been able to find Mathilda in 1851 staying with her married sister, Ann ( now TURNER-married Sept 1841 in Whitechapel).
If anyone can locate Mathilda and Ann LIFFORD in 1841, I would be most grateful as I am needing their parents and any other siblings.
many thanks
Kiwi
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Hi Kiwi
I am wondering if someone would be kind enoiugh to check the census to see if it really says LEE etc.
I'm afraid it does :-\
1841
HO107/323/9 26 7
West Ham, Essex
Opposite the Brewhouse
6 not sure whether the Street is Church Street or Ham Lane
Daniel Lifford, 52, General Dealer, no
Matilda, 13, yes
/
apartment
Daniel Lifford, 83, Bricklayer, no
Sarah, 79, no
Wm, 50, Bricklayer, no
:)
did Ann marry after the 1841 census?
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Hello my good friend!! Thanks for that look up...I think I am on the right track....Daniel and Sarah died 1842 and 1843, but what I presume is their son ( and father to Matilda) died 1854 West Ham so hopefully he willl show up in 1851 somewhere. William died 1869
I see there was also a Sarah Ann LIFFORD who died 1842 in West Ham - I wonder who she belonged to???
Ann LiFFORD married just after the census - in Sept Qtr 1841 so I was hoping she would be about in 1841. Her full name was Ann Caroline LIFFORD - that combination was used down through the generations which was helpful!
Fingers are crossed, and many thanks again for your help
Kiwi
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1841
HO107/323/13 40 26
Mays Buildings
Chapel St
Thomas Coleman, 50, Lab, yes
George, 25, Blacksmith, yes
Mary, 25, F S, yes
/
Ann Lifford, 20, F S, yes
1851
HO107/1555 50 11
Stratford Le Bow, Middlesex
6 Fairfield Place
Thomas Muir, head, 87, Retired Comander Royal Navy, b. Mddx Shadwell
Eliza, wife, 70, b. Southwark
Daniel Lifford, serv, wid, 63, General Servant, b. Surrey ?Betchworth?
:D
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1851 - HO107; Piece: 1768; Folio: 176; Page: 53
Woods Yard, West Ham, Essex
Mary HOLT, lodger unm 57, Needlewoman, born London, Middlesex
Matilda LIFFORD, visitor unm 25, Servant, born Westham, Essex
Samuel BANNER, lodger mar 40, Engineer, NK
Caroline BANNER, lodger mar 35, NK
Is this the same Matilda or another one.
Ian C
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Possibly a relative of Daniel born in Betchworth
1871 - RG10; Piece: 676; Folio: 99; Page: 24
41 Thomas St, St Mary's, Lambeth
Joseph LIFFORD, head mar 73, Late a Bricklayer, born Surrey, Betchworth
Elizabeth LIFFORD, wife mar 58, born Surrey, Clapham
plus two others.
Ian C
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Thank you Tati and IanC! I am surprised there would be 2 Matilda LIFFORD's of the same age b West ham...the look up I had done earlier suggested she was staying with James and Ann TURNER..the ref is:
HO107 p1768 fOLIO 538 pAGE 27
Hmmm..now the plot thickens! And I can't find any rcord of a Matilda LIFFORD on Free BMD anywhere!
There doesn't seem to be a marriage on the IGI for Daniel LIFFORD so can't take a guess at Matilda's mother's name...presumably the mother died before 1837.
I am thinking the John LEE might be an unmarried brother of Ann Caroline's, although he claims to be born in Surrey - where Ann's husband was born.
I wonder if William LIFFORD b abt 1790 shows up in the 1851 and 1861 census-- there might be a clue there perhaps.
I just found the Joseph look up as I was about to send this - that is certainly a good lead - especially as the occupation fits - ..it appears Joseph and wife died the same Qtr in Lambeth 1873
Many thanks again ...
Kiwi
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Matilda could have been picked up twice, at home with her brother and then out visiting the others, or vice versa. Depends how far apart the two places were I suppose.
Ian C
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hi IanC
Thats probably the answer - I eventually found a death in 1859 for a Matilda LIFFIN which I am going to presume is our girl!
I guess there has been no luck finding William LIFFORD b abt 1791 ( he was in the 1841 census as a bricklayer ) died 1869 west ham aged 81????
Fingers crossed :-))
Cheers
Kiwi
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That William would appear to be the one who was in the Workhouse in 1861 in Leyton in Essex. He was a bricklayer aged 71, born Dorking, Surrey.
Possibly him in the Greenwich Workhouse in 1851 as William LIFFIN, a bricklayer aged 65. Although his birthplace was given as Lewisham in Kent.
Ian C
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TURNER and LIFFORD family happen to be mine. Ann Caroline ( nee Lifford) daughter of Daniel Lifford is my great gran married to James Turner 1841
Regards LEE I would say he is probably a lodger as in one census it says Father to Ann and another Father in law which none are true.
Matihilda emigrated to Tasmania Australia about 1867 according to my contact.
Thomas Coleman to George 25 and Mary 25 all emigrated to Tasmania. Thomas 1847 there abouts and son and daughter followed a few years later.
These are cousins and uncle to Ann whose mother was Mary Coleman.
jessie
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I have a Lifford family tree which states
Daniel Lifford born 1797 died west ham 1854 married Mary ???? born c1792 died west ham 1830
Children to Daniel and Mary :-
Ann Caroline b1821 died 1900
Daniel b 1823 died 1824 (16month)
Sarah b 1824
twins died 4 days old
Matilda b 1827 died 1897 Tasmania
Daniel b 1830 died 1830 aged 7 weeks
I have not confirmed any of these but my side of the family has been very accurate
I am decended from Joseph Lifford born Betchworth 1797 bricklayer.
I have considerable information about the Liffords from Betchworth and have examined Betchworth church records
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In reading your letter I am thrilled to say you have given me more than I knew of my grt grt grandmother. Your infomation of Daniel Lifford married to Mary agrees with my tree. I would love to know should you know Marys' parents.
Ann Caroline is my grt grandmother and as far as I knew there was only her and her sister Matilda and I had thought Mary died giving birth to Matilda but now it seems therewas Daniel bron the year Mary died 1830. Interesting about the twins as I knew twins were in the family. I had cousins. YOu say you descend from Joseph. I have microfilm on Betchworth records.
Joseph son of John and Ann Lifford born 1797 July 7th.
would this be your Joseph.
or earlier
Joseph son of Joseph and Jane Lifford 1765 March 20th
Regards Matilda, I do have proof she emigrated to Tasmania.
Are you of the UK as I was hoping to trace Australian rellies. Jess
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Glad I was able to fill in extra facts.
My Joseph was the son of John and ann Boltwood born July 7th 1797., a distant cousin of Ann Caroline.
I have futher details of James and Ann Caroline, marriage, death, occupation etc. Do you have these?
I notice that Mary died in 1830 at West Ham. This is the year that her last child was born and died aged 7 weeks.
Daniel Lifford married Mary Coleman in 1820 at St Mary, Whitechapel.
I have details of Daniel's siblings and parents if you want them.
I am UK based so sorry cannot help with the Oz relatives.
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Thank you for replying. I do have James and Carolines' births marriage etc and kin. Appreciate Daniel Lifford marriage etc to see if you have found more than I have. Should you find out anything of Anns' parents would be grateful. I have her mother Mary Getter married John Collman in W Buckland Cornwall. Have this on CD. no proof we have the right Mary Coleman though.
Mary Getter m John Collman 1765
KIn Mary 1789
sarah 1796 (this could account for Sarah daughter of Ann )
Jerimiah 1794
Betty 1791
jessie
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Hi Jessie,
Sorry but have no info about parents of Mary.
Looking at the Daniel side of Betchwoth Liffords, I wonder if the name Lifford has now gone from that side.
Daniel born 1787 had 5 sisters but only one brother, William born 1789. William died in 1869 but had never married.
Daniel's father Daniel born 1758 hade 3 sisters and 1 brother William born 1760. I have no further details of that William. Do you know anything about him, marriage and children? If he had no children then the Lifford name has been lost from that branch of Daniel born 1728 and Elizabeth Smith.
That is of course unless any of the females had children out of wedlock.
My Lifford has come through the female line.
Joseph , born 1797 in Betchworth had a daughter Jane who had a son James John Davis Lifford born out of wedlock 1849 , hence he took his mothers surname. We are his decendents.
Food for thought. Do you know anything about William born 1760 ?
Susanne
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I think the Lifford name was lost with Ann and Matilda.
I cannot pick up William 1760 and so far have not on the Betchworth records. I am back at the library tomorrow to finish going through the microfich on Betchworth and will look through again for William. The writing of some records are hardly readable so I could have missed him. My records go up to 1810 at the moment but I do intend to send for more from that date. I have Betchworth Buckland and Leigh. Buckland gave me one side of my family tree Turners, Betchworth another with Liffords.
I picked up Joseph born 1797 son of Joseph and Ann Lifford.
1841 census William Lifford living with parents age 50.
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I have just returned to this topic and see a few cousins have joined up to the LIFFORD inquiry!
Ann Caroline TURNER b 1843, married George KERR 1873. He was a lighterman and I have lots of information on this KERR family originally from Scotland. George's eldest sister married into my SAIES family ( from Pembroke Wales).
I am in touch with descendents of Ann and George KERR so if anyone would like to contact me, I will pass on the KERR info and cousins!
Cheers
Kiwi
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Dear Kiwi I am in touch with rellies who go back to the Kerrs on Genes Reunited. I have not added much of them to my tree but made a note of some. Thank you for writing. My main object now is to find our more about Ann Caroline Lifford (nee) Coleman. jessie
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Hi, I have been doing a bit on the Liffords, Joseph Lifford born 1817 in Carmarthen was the son of Joseph born 1797 and Ann born 1795 - 1797. I think Joseph senior's father was also Joseph, a ropemaker.
Has anyone got any more info on these Liffords, the youngest Joseph was my great, great, great grandfather.
Thanks, Ian
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Hi Ian, you do not say where your Joseph Lifford originates from. The Lifford family as I know were all scattered South of England. Betchworth, Leigh, Buckland, Capel and mine ended up in West Ham. Yours could have done so also. so, tell us more of your "Joseph" fathers' whereabouts please. I do have dates of Joseph m Jane Elsey 25 Feb 1754 at Ashtead which is Surrey, I think. Also Joseph Lifford born Betchworth 1722. living Lambeth 1871 census. jessie
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Ian on checking my list on Liffords' there is a
Joseph/ Catharine of Dorking named at christening of Mercy Lifford 1789 28 June
Joseph/Sarah Stepney christening of Anne 18 June 1738
Jospeh/Elizabeth Stepney christening of Ann 21 Feb 1768
Joseph/Elizabeth Stepney christening of Willaim 12 Apr 1761
Joseph/Elizabeth Stephney christening of Marha 26 Aug 1759
Of course the father may not be a Joseph. Jessie
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Hi Jessie,
Many thanks for the info, I'm not on my home computer at the moment (which has all my genealogy stuff on it), I'll check tonight to see if I have a place of birth for Joseph born 1797. I know the family did live in the London area later, Betchworth and Susanne Lifords tree may be a possibility...
Many thanks
Ian
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Hi Jessie,
Me again, do you really mean Joseph born 1722 Betchworth and on the 1871 census - this would make him 149 years old...
The Joseph snr I have was born 1797 and died 5/8/1870, his wife ann died 11/3/1866.
What was/is confusing is that there is at least two Joseph Liffords born around the same time (see Ian C/Eysee's comments).
Ian
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Sorry Ian, should be estimated birth 1798 according to the 1871 census. I took his age off his birth year. He is living with his wife Elizabeth age 58 Ann could have been his first wife as Elizabeth is a lot younger than him. You have a difference of one year when born which is okay there but the one year difference when he died cannot be as if he died 1870 he would not be on the 1871 census. There probably are more than one Joseph but I am not finding other than ones I sent.
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Hi Jessie,
"My" Joseph snr was born in Shadwell in Middlesex in 1797, I think his father was another Joseph and possibly his grandfather as well. On the Old Bailey website there is a report of a robbery from a Joseph and William Liford (Ropemakers) in the same area. Joseph born 1797 was a coachman, general dealer, and master tobaconist at various times of his life. I think the Joseph born Betchworth 1822 is the same Joseph born 1797 occupation Bricklayer, lived in Lambeth in 1871. I also think I have his death cert as I mistook him for my ancestor...
Cheers
Ian
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I have just returned to this topic and see a few cousins have joined up to the LIFFORD inquiry!
Ann Caroline TURNER b 1843, married George KERR 1873. He was a lighterman and I have lots of information on this KERR family originally from Scotland. George's eldest sister married into my SAIES family ( from Pembroke Wales).
I am in touch with descendents of Ann and George KERR so if anyone would like to contact me, I will pass on the KERR info and cousins!
Cheers
Kiwi
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Kiwi regarding Ann Caroline Turner who married a "Kerr". She is my grt grandfathers' sister but I am not following her line with the "Kerrs". What do you know of the "Liffords" ?jessie
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Ian
if I get any further info on Joseph Lifford I will post it. I think you are on the right track. They changed occupations from census to census sometimes. Jessie
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The marriage of Daniel Lifford to Mary Coleman is in Pallot's marriage index for 1820.
My Joseph Lifford born Betchworth 1797/8 was a bricklayer on all census forms. He died 1873 as did his 2nd wife Elizabeth. His first wife Jane Mekoms(various spellings of) I assume died before 1837. I cannot find her death.
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Hi Kiwi007
Just letting you know that this topic has been moved to 'Completed' as the original request has been done.
If you need more information or another request, please start a new topic, and if necessary, you should make a link to this topic.
Regards
Valda
Surrey Moderator
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Ian I think I have some more information for you that might help.
Bur. St Paul Shadwll 1793 John Lifford Smart from upper shadwick, shadwell
Mar ST Paul 6th May 1787 Sarah Lifford to Thomas Smart wit. Joseph and Martha Lifford
Mr. St Geroges W'wark 13th Nove 1788 Martha Lifford to Thomas Cawood wit. Joseph Lifford, Joseph Lifford, (Jnr) Sarah Smart and Geroge Dawson
Censu 1851 ref ho 107/1517 Clerkenwell Joseph Lifford Age 50 mar Lodger. General Dealer born Shadwell Middlesex.jessie
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Hi Jessie,
What a star you are - can you tell me where the Burials and Marriages info came from?
Many thanks, Ian
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A relation I found through a contact on Genes Reunited. He has been doing the Lifford tree for years and belongs to F.History. He does not have a computer and gets all his info by going to places where one would find it. We belong to the Liffords' of West Ham so Joseph would be a connection. My great great grandmother was a Lifford, Ann Caroline daughter of Daniel Lifford son of Daniel Lifford and so forth. I will keep intouch should he have any more to forward on. If you find how we connect let me know. Jessie