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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: Mobo on Sunday 09 December 07 20:19 GMT (UK)
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:) :) :) :)
Does anyone know where you can look up the birth of a Swedish man (b.1861 in Malmo), who emigrated to England ??
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Hi Mobo,
If you print his name, perhaps I could have a look for you, as I live in Sweden. MDW
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you could try the 'vital records index' on familysearch.org
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Hi Mobo,
If you print his name, perhaps I could have a look for you, as I live in Sweden. MDW
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Thanks MDW,
He was Hans Jannsen Ahlfors born 1861 in Malmo.
Anne
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Hi Anne,
No exact success yet, but I have some details. I could not find Hans Jannsen Ahlfors, and was wondering if the names have been distorted. So tried Jönsson which sounds very similar.
Try the following:- Hans, son of Jöns Jönsson and Ingrid Maria Petersdotter, born 19.7.1860 in the County of Lund.
Hans, son of Måns Jönsson and Kersti Jönsdotter born on 12.12.1860 in the County of Lund.
I will continue looking, but it may take a while.
Best wishes,
Mel.
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:) :) :)
Thanks for that MDW - I'm actually doing this search for somebody else, and that's all the info they gave me.
However, I've now done some digging of my own and Hans Jönsson Ahlfors is a widower on the 1891 Census living in Westminster. He married Louise Jane Trevessik in 1889, who died in 1890. Then on the 1901 Census, he is living with his 2nd wife Ada and family, he is 40, (a tailor), and she is 28. He married Ada Helena Wakefield in 1898.
So it pretty much looks as if Hans Jönsson Ahlfors was his correct name.
:) :)
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:) :)
Whoops !
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Hi Mobo,
I have looked at quite a few records for the south of Sweden, but to no avail.
Most Swedish Church records prior to 1900 have been microfilmed by Church of J.C.L.S., and will be available through any of their Centres. Is there one near you?. Failing that, I will go to the National Archives in Stockholm (but not before Christmas) and see if I can find 'your man'.
I do have an e-mail address of a lady called Margareta Kroon, who may also be able to help you ( margareta@msff.se ) If I am not allowed to post this, I am sure the 'watchers' will remove it. She is involved with the Swedish Genealogy Days Fair being held in Malmö next year.
Best wishes
MDW
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:) :)
Thank you very much indeed for all your helpful suggestions MDW, I'll pass them on to my friend, including the name and e-mail address of Margareta Kroon..... thanks again.
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:) :)
Whoops !!
:) :) :)
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Hi Mobo
I have looked at quite a few records for the south of Sweden, but to no avail.
Most Swedish Church records prior to 1900 have been microfilmed by Church of J.C.L.S., and will be available through any of their Centres. Is there one near you?. Failing that, I will go to the National Archives in Stockholm (but not before Christmas) and see if I can find 'your man'.
I do have an e-mail address of a lady called Margareta Kroon, who may also be able to help you ( margareta@msff.se ) If I am not allowed to post this, I am sure the 'watchers' will remove it. She is involved with the Swedish Genealogy Days Fair being held in Malmö next year.
Hello MDW,
Please excuse the intrusion on this post, with your most helpful and interesting replies.
As I have a close Swedish Lady friend ;) , with whom my German wife worked in the International Bundes Post in Germany, and who now lives in Jonköping, but has a holiday home in the South Sweden area "Skåne",close to Malmo and a son in Lund.
I mentioned the post to her on the phone yesterday in passing, and she sent me this link, which you may probably already have, which I recieved by Email today.
http://genealogy.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.ra.se/ula
She is also researching her family Tree, and pointed out that this site has also the facilty to read it in Engelsk which may help the original poster.
Kind Regards
Raphael UK & Düsseldorf (D)
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Hi Raphael,
Thanks for that information, I will give it a try.
Best wishes,
MDW
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This site may help, it's Ancestry. Ancestry's fee-based and I do not have access to getting the 'final record', however, I'll give you a link to the site anyway:
http://www.ancestry.com/search/db.aspx?dbid=1189&cj=1&o_xid=0000584978&o_lid=0000584978
I saw a person listed:
C J Ahlfors b. abt 1856
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:) :)
Thanks woodelf - although I'm a member of Ancestry I can't access this Swedish section as it needs Delux membership. We'll just have to wait 'til something positive crops up I guess.
:) :)
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I'm a member of Ancestry too- but don't have access to all databases anymore :'(
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Hi
An old post here. You may have the info now but I have your Hans Jönsson Alfors. He was born in Anderslöv Parish 29 June 1860 to Jöns Hansson and Kristina Jönsdotter.
If you go to this site: http://digitalastadsarkivet.stockholm.se/Rotemannen2012/Search.aspx and write 1860 in Date of Birth and Alfors in Lastname you will get 1 hit. You can see the original document in the menu on the left. He is the third one down.
Ian
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I am trying to find the Birth of Charles Lawson who according to his marriage certificate in Broken Hill was born in Stockholm. He gives his age as 30 years in 1898 and names his father as Jacob Lawson who was also from Stockholm according to the Trove newspaper marriage announcement which also says that Charles was the third son. He also names his mother as Christina Davis which doesn't sound at all Swedish to me anyway. Perhaps Jacob married again after he got to Australia and then thought of Christina as his mother?
I've tried the Swedish search site mentioned in the previous post in this discussion but get no result for either 1868 or 1867. So perhaps the name was different in Swedish?....perhaps Larsen?
Can anyone help?
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Perhaps Charles wasn't actually Swedish. Jacob's occupation of "contractor" is interesting. Could Jacob and his wife moved to Sweden for work?
I agree thay Lawson could be Larsson, but the mother's name made me wonder.
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Perhaps Charles wasn't actually Swedish. Jacob's occupation of "contractor" is interesting. Could Jacob and his wife moved to Sweden for work?
I agree thay Lawson could be Larsson, but the mother's name made me wonder.
Quite possible I suppose but it is the way the newspaper announcement reads - 'third son of Jacob Lawson of Stockholm, Sweden'. Then there is also another Trove notice which tells of the Death of a Peter Lawson, native of Sweden - in Tasmania. He could be one of the other sons.
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Hi Malcolm33
Do you have any background info on him.... children, when he arrived etc. Do you have the links from Trove.
Ian
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Hi Malcolm33
Do you have any background info on him.... children, when he arrived etc. Do you have the links from Trove.
Also was his wife's maiden name Trenwith?
Ian
Hi Ian, Unfortunately no idea when he or his family arrived. I guess the only clue will be on his death cert - confess not having looked for that yet. I can rule out the Jacob Lawson in SA as his wife was Bridget. The trove marriage announcement is here - http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/44213869?searchTerm="Jacob Lawson"&searchLimits=
Charles' son Percy was born in Carlton in 1899 according to his marriage certificate. So it could be that Charles had already gone to Melbourne and just went back to Broken Hill to get married. Malcolm
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Have you checked for naturalization records? If he was a Swedish native, he could have become a naturalized Australian.
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Have you checked for naturalization records? If he was a Swedish native, he could have become a naturalized Australian.
I have had a look at the index and couldn't find any for Jacob but quite a few for Charles though got nothing more when I clicked on the reference numbers.
If I could just identify a death but have found nothing for Jacob or Maude. There is one for a Charles Lawson in Victoria in 1916 but nothing there to indicate if he is the right one.
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What is your connection to this family? The Lawson or Trenwith family?
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What is your connection to this family? The Lawson or Trenwith family?
My late wife who died in 2007 was Edith May Lawson, grand-daughter of Charles Lawson who married Maude Trenwith. Ede's sons and daughter know next to nothing about their family history so am trying to help them out. In the 19 years we were married Ede had no idea where her Lawsons came from.
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Have you traced the Trenwith side? The reason I ask is twofold. I can't see a Maud Mary Trenwith born c.1877, but I can see a Mary Edith Trenwith born 1876 at Payneham, with the same parents. It is the only birth entry for this couple.
The other reason is I have a John Trenwith who came to SA from Cornwall, with his wife and family in 1847. John's wife Caroline was my 2x great grandmother's sister.
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I have been looking mostly in New South Wales and Victoria for both the Lawsons and Trenwiths with no luck at all for birth marriage or death. I tried the SA site a bit but found it a bit difficult to navigate compared with the other States.
Not sure about Maude May possibly being Mary Edith, but then one never knows what to expect with name changes. Ede's Dad is listed most places as Percival or Percival William but went by the name of Tommy - turned out to be his third name.
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Ede did have some idea of a New Zealand connection but that might have only been some thoughtful thinking. I do see Trenwith's on the lists from Sydney to NZ.
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I have had a look at the databases I have. There is no marriage for Thomas Trenwith and Mary Ellen Mahoney, and only the one birth for the couple. There are two issues: regional and rural registrations did not always make it to the central registrar in Adelaide; and a lot of Catholics did not trust the civil system, and did not use it.
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There are a number of digital records for a Percival William Lawson at: http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/BasicSearch.aspx
One of them states that his mother's name was Maude M Gibson. Also at the back it says that his parents were Charles Lawson and Maude May Trenwith.
According to Ancestry a Maud May Lawson married Jno Wm Gibson in Victoria in 1912.
Ian
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There are a number of Electoral Rolls between 1922-1942 for a May Maude Gibson:
1922 - Werribee, Corio, Victoria.
1942 - Altona, Corio, Victoria.
Ian
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That is great Ian and so many thanks. Also this morning I received an email from a friend with whom we have been researching an ancestry totally different and she has found the 1912 marriage to Gibson and also her death in 1961 at the age of 86 which matches her age of 24 years in 1898 to Charles Lawson. Altona also fits as that is where Ede's family lived - in Davies Street, and so does Fitzroy where Maude died for that is where the family were living for a while. Only one problem is that on her death registration name of father is down as William and as we know it was Thomas Trenwith from her earlier marriage certificate. As soon as I saw that name Gibson something clicked in this old memory. I'm sure Ede told me that name when showing me an old photo many years ago. I have another vague feeling that there were some relatives in Ballarat, but I could be getting that mixed up with another family I stayed with in 1956.
So now I wonder what happened to Charles. I've been sent a Trove extract of a Charles Lawson having a stone fall on him at Tarrawingee in March 1895 and getting a fractured limb - he was taken to Broken Hill hospital. As a Miner I guess he would have been working in a quarry. That report was in the Barrier Miner of Broken Hill.
There was the death of a Charles Lawson at Broken Hill in 1921 but age is given as 56 and that makes a difference of 4 years with age given by Charles in 1898. We know he had two older sons and that could account for the variety of Lawson names at Broken Hill. One of those is the death of a Valda Lawson. I don't think Valda is all that common a name, yet with one vowel change it is the name of Ede's sister.
I found another Charles Lawson who died at Liverpool NSW in 1924 and his mother was Christina, but father's name was Lars not Jacob.
So thanks for all your help Ian.
Malcolm
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Cheers Malcolm,
You said Charles had 2 sons, do you have the other son's name?
Also, what was Ede's sister's name?
Ian
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Also, don't you think Maude would have remarried because of the possiblity that Charles had died prior 1912?
Ian
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That's the most likely explanation, Ian. Unless the couple had separated; divorce wasn't really available to most people in that era.
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Ede's sister is still living so don't think I can mention it. She is as much in the dark about the family as I think Ede was. Yes I would have thought that Charles would have died before Maude remarried, but I have found so many cases where people separated and they just didn't bother
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The name Valda is also a Swedish name. There are a number of Valdas in the databases.
Ian
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For the Swedish connection we must establish when Charles came to Australia. There is a possibilty that Jacob and boys left Sweden after the death of their mother to mine in Australia. I haven't unfortunately been able to find a Jacob Larsson with a Christina in the available databases.
Ian
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Ede's sister is still living so don't think I can mention it.
Sorry about that, of course you can't.
Ian
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There doesn't seem to be any record of Jacob being in Australia.
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I wonder if Charles just anglicised his mother's surname. I am thinking it could have been Davidsdotter maybe.
Ian
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Yes I think that has to be the case and Charles was very likely Karl Larrson. Quite a few Jacob Lawson's appear in Trove reports like this one - http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/208342243?searchTerm=chandlers hill,clarendon,lawson&searchLimits=l-state=South+Australia
But he could have just decided to use the name 'Jacob' on arrival in Australia.
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Yes I think that has to be the case and Charles was very likely Karl Larrson.
I believe that his name was most probably Karl or Carl Jacobsson here in Sweden following the patronymic system and took his father's surname Larsson.
Ian
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One of those is the death of a Valda Lawson.
Here is Valda in the Wiki Tree:
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Lawson-289
Ian
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Yes I would have thought that Charles would have died before Maude remarried, but I have found so many cases where people separated and they just didn't bother.
On the first page of Percival's enlistment papers he states that his father was deceased and that his mother had remarried. It was dated 15 May 1918.
Ian
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Yes I would have thought that Charles would have died before Maude remarried, but I have found so many cases where people separated and they just didn't bother.
On the first page of Percival's enlistment papers he states that his father was deceased and that his mother had remarried. It was dated 15 May 1918.
Ian
That is quite a find, Ian. Many thanks. I had no idea that Ede's Dad had been in the services in 1918. Ede did tell me that he was in the RAAF during the last war and was stationed in Darwin. When she married Dick in Scotland in 1956 she or someone had him down as a Squadron Leader but I don't believe that for a moment. I guess it would have been the Army in 1918? Malcolm
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In 1943 he was in the Civil Constructional Corps - Victoria.
Ian
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I had no idea that Ede's Dad had been in the services in 1918.
Well, he was medically unfit in 1918. So he wasn't enrolled.
Ian
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It does also say that he was in the 1st A.I.F. for 2 months.
You can read these records here: http://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/BasicSearch.aspx
Just search with Percival William Lawson.
Ian
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Thanks Again Ian. So the RAAF in Darwin was just a story. Not really surprised. Thanks also for the links. I have had a quick look at Valda in Wikitree but there is no profile manager. However I did discover that she was a daughter of Leonard Lawson born 1892 in Broken Hill who had a Masonic Funeral there in 1932. So think I will investigate the possibility of Leonard being a brother of Charles.
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Cheers Malcolm
I have just about exhausted all avenues looking for Jacob and Charles here in Sweden. I need a little more info really. Maybe something will pop up.
Ian
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Cheers Malcolm
I have just about exhausted all avenues looking for Jacob and Charles here in Sweden. I need a little more info really. Maybe something will pop up.
Ian
Thanks for all your help Ian. Funny thing is that even the smallest find which may look insignificant leads to something bigger. Your direction to Valda on Wikitree had me looking at that family which told me that her father was Leonard Lawson. So I tried a search with some of the pointers in that Wiki Tree and up came the death of Leonard in 1932. I tried to find his birth and at first it seemed it wasn't there in NSW BDM, but then I spotted a John L Lawson born in 1891 which would have been about right and that told me his father was James and mother Eliza. I had already seen something about James which put his age about one year older than Charles so then guessed that James was an older brother of Charles. I then found that James married Eliza Prentice and then looked through the Broken Hill Deaths which told me that James had died in 1913. A new search in Trove and Bingo - http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/45227310?searchTerm="James Lawson"&searchLimits=l-state=New+South+Wales|||l-title=53|||l-decade=191 This not only confirms that James was the father of Leonard J Lawson but says that James was born in Gothenburg. Previously we found that Charles came from Stockholm as did the father Jacob. So perhaps Jacob and Christina had lived for a while in Gothenburg before going back to Stockholm a year after James was born. There only seems to be a year difference between the births of James and Charles.
There is a lesson here for everyone - Don't Ever Give Up and keep an eye out for the tiniest clue.
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Great stuff.
I will try this new avenue.
Ian
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Maybe my PM will be of some use!
Ian
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Good find, Malcolm!
Ian, could James be an anglicised version of Jacob?
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Good find, Malcolm!
Ian, could James be an anglicised version of Jacob?
I was actually thinking what James could be in Swedish. This site says so anyway: http://www.behindthename.com/names/usage/swedish
Ian
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Ian, could James be an anglicised version of Jacob?
Jöns and Jonas could also be James perhaps.
Ian
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I think I know why Maude left Broken Hill for Melbourne in 1899. I have just found a couple of trove reports dated 18th February, 1899, strangely in Queensland papers although the incident was at Summerhill, Sydney. These tell us that Charles Lawson a Swede cut his throat and then stabbed himself in the abdomen and then threw himself into a canal (the Hawthorne Canal runs through Summerhill). That was just under 8 months after he married Maude and 4 months before the birth of Percy. He had found out that he was suffering from an incurable internal illness. Nevertheless the only death that looks like him was in 1941 when a Charles Lawson living in Stuart Town died aged 74 and that fits the age of Charles who was 30 when he married in 1898.
Stuart Town is not far from Mudgee where Peter Lawson married Louisa and she gave birth to Henry Lawson the Poet. Peter Lawson was really Nils Larsen, a Norwegian Miner so they really did change their names quite a lot.
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Malcolm,
I know it is not Sydney, but what about the Charles Lawson death in 1899 in the district of Gunnedah?
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Malcolm,
I know it is not Sydney, but what about the Charles Lawson death in 1899 in the district of Gunnedah?
Thanks for that. I never thought to look at 1899 when I first checked NSW deaths as I somehow took it that Charles had gone to Melbourne with Maude for the birth of Percy in 1899. I see that the Gunnedah Charles gave his father's name as 'Hansen' which I suppose could be a variation of Lawson rather than Jacob. Trove is not working well at the moment - overloaded they say - so will have a look at that in the morning. Malcolm
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Hi
Just adding names to the list. Might be something.
Charles Lawson died 7 Sept 1910 and buried in Finley, New South Wales.
Charles Lawsen died 22 Nov 1899 buried West Terrace Cemetery, Adelaide.
Ian
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Charles Lawsen d. 22/11/1899, buried West Terrace Cemetery was 50 years old. The section he was buried in is called the Kingston Allotments. I am not sure if that was the pauper section, as there is no lease details for the grave, which is unusual.
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Thank you both, some very interesting cases arising all about different Charles Lawson's. One has been found in police records using the names John Williams, John Wilson and Charles Norton, but that Charles Lawson was born about 4 years later and was in Melbourne all the time.
Malcolm
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I think I know why Maude left Broken Hill for Melbourne in 1899. I have just found a couple of trove reports dated 18th February, 1899, strangely in Queensland papers although the incident was at Summerhill, Sydney. These tell us that Charles Lawson a Swede cut his throat and then stabbed himself in the abdomen and then threw himself into a canal (the Hawthorne Canal runs through Summerhill). That was just under 8 months after he married Maude and 4 months before the birth of Percy. He had found out that he was suffering from an incurable internal illness. Nevertheless the only death that looks like him was in 1941 when a Charles Lawson living in Stuart Town died aged 74 and that fits the age of Charles who was 30 when he married in 1898.
Stuart Town is not far from Mudgee where Peter Lawson married Louisa and she gave birth to Henry Lawson the Poet. Peter Lawson was really Nils Larsen, a Norwegian Miner so they really did change their names quite a lot.
May I please note that Henry Lawson was not born anywhere near Mudgee. He was born out near Grenfell, and his birth registered at the Forbes Court House. NSW BDM uses that birth registration as a sample : http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Documents/b1867-11928.pdf
May I please note that there's more than one Summer Hill Creek in NSW. In fact I am fairly sure there's several not just a suburb of Sydney. I am fairly sure there’s Summer Hill Creeks : near Orange, near Bathurst,near Mudgee, near Wilcannia.
The National Library of Australia allows the live links they provide to the articles in the digitised newspapers to be cited on forums like RChat.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113708520 Evening News 17 Feb 1899
and also
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113705187 Evening News 20 Feb 1899 .... his condition improved, still in hospital, alive and improving considerably . :)
JM
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Thanks JM I did see that Henry Lawson was born in Grenfell but his parents married in Mudgee. There are still a few different deaths of men named Charles Lawson and another likely one died in 1921 in Broken Hill. It gets so complicated with both the Lawson's and the Trenwith's using different given names as well as their surnames being varied. For example Ede's Dad who was baptized as Percival William Thomas Lawson, went by the name of Tom Gibson in his teen years and later on. His mother Maude May Lawson, nee Trenwith had children by a father unknown and then by William John Gibson in 1907. She married William John Gibson in 1912 and he died on the 14th July, 1912, so probably a marriage to a dying man she had lived with for years.
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The habit of names changing was a fairly easy thing to do for generations of NSW residents (male and female alike). It is really only from the mid 1990s that it has become a chore to go about changing the name you wish to be known by. I think it would date from the the need to have 100 points of ID in your preferred name before you can effectively receive wages/social security income support payments into a bank account in that preferred name.... The late Christopher Skase's flight out of Australia comes to mind.
Some of the changes are simply alternative spellings caused by the use of verbal information being recorded by clerks in longhand on NSW BDM registers facing the clerk rather than the informant (Larsen/Lawson etc) (NSW BDM HQ did not get a typewriter until after WWI and I am not sure when deputy registrars in regional/rural/remote NSW commenced with typewriters, but I know my own NSW birth in the 1940s was registered in the long hand of the registrar and my parent, no typewriter at that office); some are by the persons of interest choosing to be known by another name (nothing illegal in so doing, provided of course the intention does not include attempting to deceive or commit a fraud etc); some are because the parent/s/foster parents of a child want their local social group to know the child by the surname of the rest of the family; some because mum has become widowed and has a new partner, so the children's surname changes when mum becomes known by newer surname; some as adults choose to change their surname to avoid confusion with someone else in the same locality with the same first name and surname.
Part and parcel of family history is searching for the 'known by' name rather than the official name.
JM