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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: Dinkydidy on Thursday 06 December 07 21:46 GMT (UK)
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I am looking for children of these two couples, from the IGI:
William White & Margaret Johnson, married Alnwick, 26 Mar 1816.
William White & Margaret Smith, Married Berwick, 25 Nov 1800.
I'm hoping to find that one of them had a son called Thomas. I have a birthdate (from a family bible - no place) of 21 Dec 1816 for a Thomas White. His father was William, according to his marr. cert. I am assuming his mother was Margaret because his (Thomas's) first four children include both his wife's parents' names and a William, plus a Margaret Ann.
Thomas was married in Newcastle, but lived in Gateshead in 1841, answering No to "Born in county?" Unfortunately he left England before 1851.
Any information on the Thomas/William connection would be greatly appreciated.
Didy
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Hi Didy,
I have no idea if this is of any use to you :-\ Maybe you could keep it on file until you have confirmed the correct family?
William White Christened 7 April 1816 Long Benton Northumberland
Parents were William White and Margaret
FHL Film 1469110
Frances :)
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Hi Frances and Didy :)
Long Benton/Longbenton is now part of Newcastle itself - just to the East of Gosforth and on the North of the city.
It's a fair way from Alnwick or Berwick (even now it takes over an hour's travel).
Regards
Gadget
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Many thanks for your information, Frances and Gadget. :)
The William and Margaret combination does not seem to be very common (on the IGI), which is why I was clutching at Alnwick or Berwick. The Long Benton couple are certainly much closer to the place of Thomas's marriage. I will have to see if I can find them on a census.
Didy
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Didy,
Why don't you share the info you have, ... might increase the chances of success.
You have Thomas's marriage certificate... 1839 registered with Newcastle Register Office ?
Thomas's dad was William... OK ...what was his occupation ?
Did Thomas marry Margery Field ?
What was Thomas's wife's father called ?, his occupation ?
( many sons followed in dad's footsteps ! )
An e.g. on occupations/geography relationships..... coal mining very common in Northumberland, but some areas had no mines !
What were the names of the children of Thomas/???, in chronological order ?
Did the couple suffer any infant deaths ?
Michael Dixon
Newcastle
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Thanks for the suggestion, Michael.
Marriage certificate:
Thomas White, Engine Wright, of South Shore, Gateshead, father William White, Agent, married Margery Field, of South Shore, Gateshead, father John Field, Blacksmith, 10th Feb 1839 at Hanover Square (Unitarian) Chapel, Newcastle upon Tyne, by William Turner. Witnesses Robert Gisburne and Robert Alexander.
1841 census for Salt Meadow, Gateshead, has Thomas White, 24, Millwright, "Margaret" White, 23, both not born in county, and Rebecca, 1, born in county.
Family Bible has presentation page from William Turner stating that they were the first couple married in the chapel.
Inside cover:
Thomas White Borne Dec 21st 1816
Margrey White Borne June 22nd 1817
Another page:
Rebecca White Borne Nov 28th 1839
Margret Ann White Borne Septr 17th 1841
William Gordon White Borne June 16th 1846
John Field White Born Feb 5th 1849
James Henderson White Borne Feb 23rd 1851
Thomas White Borne April 7th 1854
Elen Jane White Borne March 6th 1856
George Little White Borne April 16th 1859
No places or christening dates, unfortunately.
I will add some more in another post, as I have just lost all this twice before. >:( >:( >:(
Didy
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Continued:
There is an obvious gap in the children's births 1841-1846. I have birth certificates from Gateshead for Rebecca and Margaret, showing Thomas as an Enginewright in 1839 and Millwright in 1841. All the other children were born and registered in South Australia.
The page showing the children's births appears as it would if they were added as they occurred, with slightly staggered margins and different coloured inks.
During the gap, Thomas and Margery arrived in Nelson, N.Z. on the Phoebe, 29 Mar 1843. They left there in the Augustus, arriving in South Australia 5 Mar 1845. There are no early birth records available for Nelson, and birth registration commenced in S.A. in 1842.
From the IGI and Joiner Marriage Index, Margery's parents appear to be as follows:
John Field, chr 17 Aug 1788, Ryton, Durham, son of George Field and Jane Matthews.
Rebecca Henderson, chr 18 Aug 1782, Corbridge, Northumberland, daughter of James Henderson and Margery Waugh.
John Field, of Ryton, married Rebecca Henderson 4 Jul 1814 at Corbridge.
This info is supported by the 1841 census for Blaydon, Durham.
I realize that all the above names are fairly common, but I am hoping that the combination of first and middle names will help.
Didy.
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Didy,
Fingers crossed, it appears that Thomas/Margery were following the conventions of the English Naming Pattern !
"Rule" 6. -name your first dtr after her mother's mother.
(Rebecca Field, nee Henderson.) They did!
Rule 7. -name your second dtr after her father's mother.
Name Unknown)?? They used Margaret Ann ??
Rule 1. name your first son after his father's father.
(William White)They did!
Rule 2. Name your second son after his mother's father.
(John Field). They did!
Rule 3. -name your third son after his father.
(Thomas White) They didn't ?? (James Henderson White)
Rule 4 -name your fourth son after his father's eldest brother
(Name unknown) ?? They used Thomas!
Rule 8 -name your third dtr after her mother.
(Margery + var.) They didn't (Elen Jane White)
But MAYBE they deliberately missed out using Margery, because the had earlier used the similar name "Margaret"
Rule 5 -name your fifth son after his mother's eldest brother
(Name unknown) ?? They used George Little !
Rule 9 was to name your4th dtr after after her mother's eldest sister, rule 10 = 5th dtr after father's eldest dtr.
The basis ENP does not specify on second "first" names.
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Although William/Margery were not born within County Durham, they were living in the county when they married.
But they crossed the River Tyne to marry in Newcastle.
This was probably because the nearest "right" church was in Newcastle.. i.e. Unitarian Chapel
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An interesating angle ! . well to me, anyway ! , was that they married 10 Feb 1839 in a non "parish church", The terms "parish" and "parish church" applied ONLY to the religion of Anglicanism/Church of England.
The law of the land ( England & Wales) laid down that the ONLY legal way to marry in England and Wales was IN a church of the Church of England ( Quakers and Jews were exempted from this law). So Roman Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc were forced to marry in the "wrong" church ( or not marry, or marry outside England and Wales, e.g. Scotland)
This law was removed with effect from July 1837.
You said the White/Field marriage was the first one in the chapel. Yes, very likely, considering the dates. However baptisms in this chapel dated back to 1752 ( Legal/religious restriction was only on marriages, not baptisms ! )
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Into which religious denomination were the children baptised ?
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A handy website, Surname Profiler, benchmarked at 1881, shows the Field surname to have no roots in the north of England.
More importantly it also shows the White surname to be mainly rooted in the south of England and in the south-east of Scotland ( counties of Berwickshire and Midlothian), with little or no showing in northern counties of England
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In spite of those "clues" the only recorded connection of your Whites to the County of Northumberland is the marriage of Thomas and Margery. Am I right with this ?
In theory Thomas could have come to County Durham
( Gateshead area) from anywhere, including Scotland, not just from Northumberland. And he could have come by himself, in maturity, or with his family as a child ?.
( Third Child, William, got a second name.. Gordon..this as a surname is almost exclusively Scottish, with a small overspill into the English counties of Northumberland and Durham )
Ouch, I now have a headache !
So over to you..
Michael Dixon
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Michael, I'm sorry about the headache, but very grateful for your time and the amount of information you have offered.
The naming pattern can be a great help, but according to the siblings' names on the 1841 census, it seems to have varied a bit in Margery's own family.
Children of John and Rebecca Field:
1st dtr - Eliza c.1815 (no known connection yet)
2nd dtr - Margery 1816 (mother's mother)
3rd dtr - Jane 1817-1820 (father's mother)
1st son - James 1817-1820 (mother's father)
Do you know if there is a similar naming pattern in Scotland?
The first two children of Thomas and Margery White were baptised in the church where their parents were married, with Rebecca wrongly transcribed on the IGI as Barbara. However, the only other White baptism is for a son of Robert and Susannah White in 1825. There are no Field baptisms there. Am I right in assuming that it was usually the bride's church where the marriage occurred?
The only other Northumberland connection is the Corbridge birth and marriage place of Rebecca Henderson, Margery's mother.
I have considered a Scottish connection for some time, but since there are so many Whites in Northumberland, thought it best to try and eliminate the closest ones first. With a name like White, it's a matter of deciding which haystack to look in!
There is a photograph of John Field White's daughter wearing a kilt in South Australia in about 1916. However, the occasion was an all-female patriotic pageant of some kind during World War One, and all the participants were wearing different styles of British national dress. Perhaps she chose the kilt because of a Scottish connection?
And when I look at all the Whites and Gordons in Scotland, that's when my headache starts!
Didy
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Didy,
Yes, Scottish naming patterm ( and Irish)similar to English one. You can google them to see detail !
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"... usually the bride's church wherethe marriage occurred.."
Sorry got to "go on" to explain my answer...
Bearing in mind a "parish" was not just an ecclesiastic unit (of the Anglican Church) but was also the only framework for local civil administration,
e.g. for supporting the poor, security and "policing, road maintenance, etc.
The Parish was also geographic unit..
i.e.
County >sub-divided into Parishes
Parishes>sub divided into Townships"
Townships>sub-divided into towns,/villages/communities
( My birth place would have been thus described, in the 1800s..
>Colliery Village of Bebside, in the
>Township of Cowpen, in the
>Parish of Horton, in the
>County of Northumberland...
When civil BMD registration started on 1st July 1837, each Registration District was set up , to cover the territory of a number of parishes (Anglican)
Tynemouth Reg District was made up of the Parishes of Tynemouth, Earsdon, Cramlington, Horton, Longbenton, and Wallsend.
Union Workhouses also served a particular number
( or "union" )of parishes.
Answer the question.. Michael.. OK
If the bride lived within Parish A and groom lived in Parish B, then it is likely that they would have married in the church of Parish A.
If they both lived in Parish C, then they would have married in church of Parish C.
Some parish ( Anglican) records specify.. e.g.
"Both of this Parish" = both lived in parish at time of marriage.
" Native of this Parish" = born in this parish
"Native of Parish A.. etc.
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But "non-conformists" ( Presbyterians, Methodists, Catholics, etc) at that time did not have a "parish" organisation. And as it was possible that there was not a church of the "right" denomination in the area/Parish in which they lived, they both would have married at their nearest "non-conformist" church, lying in another area/Parish.
Enough already.
Michael Dixon
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Thanks again, Michael. And as for "going on", I very much appreciate the background information. It's all part of the family history "territory", isn't it?
Didy.
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Didy,
Reading over my "War and Peace" pieces to you , I am reminded of my kids response when I helped them with homework..
"Dad, never mind all that rubbish, just give me the blooming answer ! "
Michael
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Hello Dinkydidy,
I can solve part of your problem regarding some of the descendants of Thomas White and Margery Field, parents of John Field White and others.
spike47(at)bigpond(dot)com
Cheers,
Spike.
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Hello Spike
I have had a look at your website and note the information about Jamestown Cemetery, where John Field White and his family are buried. I already have these records and headstone photographs, but if you have anything further, I would be grateful.
Didy
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Hello Didy,
It's quite a long story, but I am a member of our Local Family History Group and was interviewing Nellie White (widow of Norman) about her experiences as member of the first Dutch migrant family in this area. As a result of this I was asked if I could start finding out a little on the White family ancestors for her children.
I have made a good start on the descendants of Thomas b. 1816 and was searching for further information when I found your question here on Roots Chat. So far I have entered about 100 descendants and their families and will be speaking to other local family members to update the information on their families
Because it contains living persons, I would prefer that you email me if you are interested.
Cheers,
Spike.