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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Bellejazz on Wednesday 05 December 07 03:12 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I have found 2 and potentially 3 convicts as my direct ancestors.
I have seen how quickly a family line expands and how many descendants one person can produce .... (how many convicts were transported in total? Has anyone ever attempted to estimate how many Australians/percentage of the population have a convict ancestor?)
Anyway, until I started my research I always thought that it was relatively rare to have a convict ancestor, I never would have thought I would find 3!
Is this typical or does it speak volumes about the general social standing of my ancestors? ;D
ie: That people of like circumstances/backgrounds gravitated towards each other.
Thanks,
Belinda.
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To add to the comment about people of like backgrounds; one of my Convicts was William Smedley, he married Irish famine orphan Margaret Ward, I assume this marriage was determined to be a suitable match because as an Orphan she was of low social standing and she had no family to object to her marrying a convict?
- Belinda.
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Belinda
Where and when did this all take place as it hard to search there with out a state there in Australia.
As I have three convicts in my tree ,I am going back in the 1800's there.
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Hi Belinda :)
I've got two convicts in my direct tree, my 4xg-grandparents Joseph Danks and Mary Holmes.
Prue
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Belinda
Where and when did this all take place as it hard to search there with out a state there in Australia.
As I have three convicts in my tree ,I am going back in the 1800's there.
Bob, of the 3 convicts I am researching 1 was transported to NSW, 1 to VIC and 1 to TAS. Many of their descendants eventually ended up in VIC. I'm not at home so my records aren't accessible but from memory the NSW one arrived around 1836, and the VIC one around 1847.
The TAS one was quite a bit earlier, in the 1820's.
Anyway I am doing pretty well with my convict research, I was just curious about other peoples experiences and wanting to know if it was unusual to have multiple convicts in your family.
- Belinda.
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Hi Belinda :)
I've got two convicts in my direct tree, my 4xg-grandparents Joseph Danks and Mary Holmes.
Prue
Hi Prue,
did they marry each other or are they from two separate lines?
regards,
Belinda.
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Hi Folks ;)
I have two sisters that were both convicts, one my gggrandmother. Her sister came out first and then she came out a couple of years later, she was only 16 yrs old..... I cannot find much on the gent she married and they later changed their name, so I am somewhat sus about him too, I think he was a bit dodgey!! :-\ :-\. I also have another possiblity with their son-in-laws father, he could have been too or perhaps not, no idea how he got here either....
I was so happy when I found my first convict, it was a real surprise, I too thought they were pretty rare.... ::) ;D Iwouldn't trade them for a king.......
Cheers
Lones
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Hi Lones,
part of the reason I was interested in asking this question is because my Husband (who came here to Australia with his parents in the 1950's and is thoroughly English) was quite surprised when I found the first one. By the time I found the second one he was quite skeptical, and insisted the odds of me having not only one but two in the family was highly unlikely.
I will take great delight in telling him about this thread and how it's not so unlikely after all!
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I haven't told him about the third one yet ::)
;D
- Belinda.
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Hi Belinda,
Nobody knows the exact number of convicts who came to Australia but a rough estimate is 168,000. It will probably never be possible to come up with accurate figures as there were so many who died on the voyage, some were sentenced but for all sorts of reasons (ship wreck etc) never arrived, lots brought children who were never entered on passenger lists (mainly Irish). Then there was Molly Morgan who managed to escape back to England, live there for 6 or 7 years and then get transported again under another name. Do we count her once or twice??
I think someone has estimated that 20% of the present Aussie population are descended from convicts. Don't know how scientific this is or just a guess but I feel it might be near the mark. What do others think?
I have heard of families descended from up to 8 convicts but these were rare and of course in the early years (1788 to 1810), as there were not many free settlers. The proportion of men to women was also very high so it often didn't matter how old, ugly or alcoholic the women were, they nearly always found a husband (or multiple husbands sometimes) ::) ::)
I am descended from only 2 convicts but they came in the later years of transportation when there were already plenty of free settlers. Lucky for them conditions of transportation were also very much improved over the early years.
Andcarred
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The proportion of men to women was also very high so it often didn't matter how old, ugly or alcoholic the women were, they nearly always found a husband (or multiple husbands sometimes) ::) ::)
;D ; :D ;D
thanks for responding Andcarred, that was all very informative.
- Belinda.
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I have no convicts in my tree :'( :'( but my husband has a first fleeter who married? a second fleeter. We are unsure as to whether the marriage took place, but if it did it was bigamous as at least one & probably both had a spouse back in England :)
Belinda - can you explain your Victorian convict - I didn't think it was a penal Colony? Perhaps he/she was a free settler?
Trish
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I have two convicts - a man and a woman - both were sent to New South Wales. Interestingly, the man married a daughter of the woman. Both were from Rowley Regis, Staffs, and were transported for minor crimes. I'm delighted to have them!
Interestingly, the later family became ultra respectable and there was never a mention of convicts. I doubt that recent generations knew about them - I certainly didn't until cousin Jennie, who is researching that line, found them!
MarieC
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Hi Belinda :)
I've got two convicts in my direct tree, my 4xg-grandparents Joseph Danks and Mary Holmes.
Prue
Hi Prue,
did they marry each other or are they from two separate lines?
regards,
Belinda.
They were married - Mary had been married at least 3 times in the previous 10 years or so prior to marrying Joseph. They had two children together, the son drowned aged 6 and I am descended from their daughter Sarah, born in 1828 :)
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I do seem to remember someone in the Australian contingent of Rootschat having several convict ancestors...can't recall who it was now, though :-\
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As far as I know, I have no convict ancestry (unfortunately) despite my own (and my children's) earliest (known) ancestors having come here in 1841, some having come ca 1850 and none later than 1890. I'm still hoping! The closest is a GggUncle on my children's paternal side who was sentenced to 7 years transportation in 1848 for forgery and uttering - but was pardoned before he set sail (and just a few years later came free and became a successful businessman!) And, as far as I know, there is only one on either side who married a convict (again, this is on my children's paternal side! - their Gggma); of her three relationships/marriages, the first (a marriage) was with an ex-con, the second (not a marriage and my children's line of descent) was with a chap who doesn't seem to have been a convict, and her third (a marriage) was with an ex-convict but she was past child-bearing age.
I recall that my late mother was always very keen to show the passage certificates of one set of her maternal ancestors (who came in 1850) to prove that they weren't convicts.
I guess the Australian Bureau of Statistics would be able to put some limits on the percentage? First step would be to discount the % of the current population born overseas (not precise of course - after all, one of my children was born overseas) but at least a rough estimate. And comparisons of this with similar % in earlier censuses.
I guess that, the further back one can trace one's ancestors in Australia, the more likely it is that there will be some convict connexions.
Family lore had it that Henry HACKING of the 1st Fleet was connected - he married a convict but (unfortunately) he's definitely not an ancestor.
Bellejazz, it's a very interesting question and I hope you get some good answers.
JAP
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Oh dear :o
Me thinks I may be throwing all your theories out the window!
I have 17 confirmed (third Fleet onwards) direct line convicts and one extra possibility
and I'm also proud of every one of them.
Di
:D
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Belinda - can you explain your Victorian convict - I didn't think it was a penal Colony? Perhaps he/she was a free settler?
Hi Trish,
he was William Smedley, details can be found on this page here: http://www.convictcentral.com/ just type "Smedley" into the search box.
It says they were discharged upon arrival in Williamstown. Does that mean made free?
- Belinda.
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ok have done more reading ... I think they were classified as exiles ... are they still convicts? :-\
- Belinda.
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Di!! :o :o :o
I think you take the prize! ;D
MarieC
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Hello there
I myself have as yet no convicts :'(
but my latyest grandchild is descended from two from his father so he is lucky.
Now I see that William Smedley is a Parkhouse boy, poor lad only 10 years old, they were Exiled to Australia never to return. If you google "Parkhurst Boys" you will find heaps about them. parkhurst was a nortorious prison in England.
Some of us folk were helping a chap with his research on the Parkhurst Boys a while back I will find the thread and add it in for you
kind regards JEnn
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Hi Jenn,
William was 14, his sentence was 10 years :)
I found this on wiki:
"Either before leaving England or on arrival at their destination, they were pardoned on the conditions that they be "apprenticed" to local employers, and that they not return to England during the term of their sentence. In the ten years between 1842 and 1852 nearly 1500 boys aged from twelve to eighteen were transported to Australia and New Zealand from Parkhurst Prison."
So I guess technically he is still a convict right?
- Belinda.
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yes he was indeed
regards JEnn
whoops sorry about the age
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Oh dear :o
Me thinks I may be throwing all your theories out the window!
I have 17 confirmed (third Fleet onwards) direct line convicts and one extra possibility
and I'm also proud of every one of them.
Di
:D
You know, as soon as I posted my last message, I had an inkling it was you I was thinking of, Di ! :D
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I have 3 - but I know of many who have more - maybe not as many as Di! :D
What's interesting to me is that many descendants in my trees ended up in places where there was no transportation eg South Australia and New Zealand, so even folk in those places can claim convict ancestry.
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Di!! :o :o :o
I think you take the prize! ;D
MarieC
Yes MarieC, I do have more than my fair share. ::)
Hi Prue - Good memory - I think I have admitted to my sordid past previously here somewhere!! ;)
I couldn't believe it when they just kept coming up as "convict". My poor dear departed grandmother would roll in her grave if she only knew.
These 17 are all from my Dad's side - and he refuses to believe it as well but they are all confirmed and accounted for.
I'm still trying for the last hope and he will be the first & last on my Mum's side.
Di
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Hi Trish,
he was William Smedley, details can be found on this page here: http://www.convictcentral.com/ just type "Smedley" into the search box.
It says they were discharged upon arrival in Williamstown. Does that mean made free?
- Belinda.
I think so - but I am no expert - I had thought there were no convicts sent to Vic. It was about the time that the Eastern states had stopped taking convicts, so UK sent them anyway - called them exiles and told them they were free as long as they didn't come back ::) ::) - Your shipload sound vey interesting - worth a research grant by themselves :)
Trish
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Belinda
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,186214.0.html
this is the topic that dealt with a few Parkhurst Boys
Now you girls stop showing off please ... can't you let me have one Di ;D
regards Jenn
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Di!! :o :o :o
I think you take the prize! ;D
MarieC
Wow - I think so too - and pre 1988 the prize was always given to the free settlers - amazing how things change & the convicts are at last recognised for what they gave to Australia (whether willingly or not)
Trish
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More than happy to share Jenn,
What would you like - the Chimney sweep who stole a handkerchief and was sentenced to Life, or maybe the guy who tried to "rip off" the Bank of England or there are lots who stole livestock - horses, chickens etc. No murderers or anything really bad though ::)
The Irish are the ones who are the biggest challenge as I don't know what some of them did :( (probably just being Irish was enough!!)
You're quite right Trish - we are (and should be) very proud of what the early "settlers", convict or free, did for this great country.
Di
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Hi all,
My Convict came out to N.S.W. in 1833 which in my G G Grandfather there and his brother was transported to Tas in 1940 and his cousin was transported to Tas as well in 1846 the went to South Australia then to Vic to NSW there them they are all over Australia now. LOL
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Can't compete with Di but my wife has 3 direct and 7 who you may call in laws as they married into various branches of the family as it expanded. All in Tassie but most ended up in Vic.
Bob
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I have convicts in my tree but they weren't transported!
One branch, father, mother & three daughters, all killed a bloke in 1882. All but one of the girls, who was 13 at the time, were convicted of manslaughter and put into Norwich Castle Prison.
There are so many more details known about those that broke the law etc.
Teddy
;)
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I have heard of families descended from up to 8 convicts but these were rare
I'm extremeley lucky, being one of those rare direct blood descendants of 8 convicts;
1) Sarah Dorset "Lady Julianna" (2nd Fleet) 1789
2) Mary Harrison "Mary Ann" (2nd/3rd Fleet - debatable) 1791
3) Edward Robinson "Admiral Barrington: (3rd Fleet) 1791
4) George Smith "Fortune" 1806
5) Mary Clark "Woodman" 1823
6) Wlliam McCready ""Recovery" 1823
7) Thomas Sarjeant "Maquis of Hastings" 1827
8) Stephen Williams "Eleanor" 1831
plus quite a few more who married into the family of direct blood ancestors. Also, lucky enough to have Robert Watson, a 1st Fleet crewman abaord the "Sirius".
Though in seeing Di's response of having 17 convict descendants, she is certainly a rarity!
Family Trees are an amazing thing. I compare my convict ancestors with other ancestors on the same family tree level. Some of these include Sirs, Countesses, Reverends, high ranking military men, and extremely wealthy businessmen. Its an incredible comparison, but I would never swap any of them - rich/poor or gentry/convict!
Les
Les
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I agree that all our convicts are to be prized just as much as the more virtuous and famous in our trees. I like to say that England exported all her most enterprising citizens, and gave Australia a flying start!
I too have a crewman as well - Joshua Bentley on the "Lady Penrhyn" of the First Fleet, who fathered a child by a convict woman. The child was the first white child baptised in Australian waters. (Well, I'm almost certain he's mine - everything points that way but I haven't got that final bit of definitive proof!)
MarieC
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Lady Di & Les your respective numbers of 17 & 8 are very impressive!
I agree that all our convicts are to be prized just as much as the more virtuous and famous in our trees. I like to say that England exported all her most enterprising citizens, and gave Australia a flying start!
;D
- Belinda.
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I have 5 convict ancestors who are direct blood relatives - all on my father's side of the family. My mother's line were all free settlers.
Margaret Stocker 'Indispensible' 1796 married Isaac Cornwell 'William and Ann' (3rd fleet) 1791.
Jane Ison (Lloyd) 'Surprize' 1794 married William Eaton 'Admiral Barrington' (3rd fleet) 1791.
Richard Clough 'Portland' 1832.
All settled in the Richmond/Windsor area of NSW.
Les, I wonder whether my William and your Edward were aquainted?
Di, 17 is truely amazing! :D
Margaret :)
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Les, I wonder whether my William and your Edward were aquainted?
Hi Margaret
I'd say they would have "bumped" into each other on the way out here, seeing that the accommodation was a tad cramped. Further, Edward Robinson ran the pub "York Races" in Sydney, but later settled in Windsor, where he died.
Les
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Belinda
This is a great thread that you've started, and it's very interesting to see the convicts that Rootschatters have in their backgrounds. I'm sure you have enough evidence now to convince your sceptical hubby that two convicts is not at all unusual - not even remarkable!!! ::) ::) ::)
MarieC
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Thanks Marie ... I think he's just a wee bit jealous ;) ;D
- Belinda.
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Belinda,
I wouldn't be at all surprised if he is!! ;D I'm sure a lot of the people in England who make jibes about our convict past are, too - but you'd never get them to admit it! :o ;D
MarieC
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hi all,I've enjoyed reading all your comments about convict ancestors
and I thought if you have'nt seen this database of convicts who were transported
from ireland already you might like to have a browse and 'adopt' a few ;D
anne
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/search/index.php?browse=true&category=18&subcategory=147
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G'day Anne,
'owyagoin'? (Speaking Aussie here!)
We did indeed have many, many convicts from Ireland and we have a proud Irish heritage. My two convicts were English, but thanks for the link! I'll be very interested to have a look at it. Got to go out just now, but will look later.
Best wishes,
MarieC
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hi marie,going great at the moment ,lots of new info' since the
dublin 1911 census went online the other day.great stuff
with some surprising new facts.should be a link on that site
to it if you're interested.
regards.anne
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I'm sure a lot of the people in England who make jibes about our convict past are, too - but you'd never get them to admit it!
But they do have a great sense of humour about it! In 1977 my wife and I were in one of the huge lines of tourists awaiting to pass through Customs at Heathrow Airport. An announcement was made over the public address system in a broad English accent "Would all Aussie convicts please proceed to desk No.......," There were a few chuckles from us QANTAS passengers, and we all went to desk No......, showed our passports, and went straight through Customs without having to line up. A great welcome from our "Pommy cousins"!
Les
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I have 8 convicts in a direct line from my dad's mother, and numerous other convicts. Some married a brother/sister of the direct line. I also have ship crew on the ships and the convicts were on. Funny you should mention "Irish". I think I am about to inherit a few more.
Direct Line Convicts
Jane Walker - Marquis Cornwallis
Mary Hook - Lady Juiliana
William Kentwell - Admiral Barrington
Elizabeth Morris - Mary Ann
Samuel James - Perseus
Reuben Buckner - Pitt
Humphrey Thorn - Neptune
Rebecca Richards - Mary Ann
Sideways Convicts
James Beckett - Surprise
George Best - William & Ann
Ann Calcut - Neptune
Martha Chamberlain - Indespensible
Sophia James - Experiment
Patrick Kirk - Atlas
William Ruston - Coromandel 1
Suspected Convicts
Edward Herrington - Edward Threader
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But they do have a great sense of humour about it! In 1977 my wife and I were in one of the huge lines of tourists awaiting to pass through Customs at Heathrow Airport. An announcement was made over the public address system in a broad English accent "Would all Aussie convicts please proceed to desk No.......," There were a few chuckles from us QANTAS passengers, and we all went to desk No......, showed our passports, and went straight through Customs without having to line up. A great welcome from our "Pommy cousins"!
Les
Blimey Les - things have changed - when I was there a few years ago - everyone from Europe instantly went through customs - we were in a five mile queue with all the others from past or present "commonwealth" countries and no doubt a few others. Took us about 3 hours to be "let back in"
Trish
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I have lots of convicts on just about every branch of my Family trees.
An interesting one is John Marsden who was transported to Tasmania in 1812 aboard the "Indefatigable" for killing a sheep (they could not prove he stole it). His son John Marsden was transported for seven years to New South Wales aboard the "Shipley" eight years later for stealing one pound, ten shillings and sixpence. In Sydney he applied to be re-united with his father at Port Daleymple (Launceston) which is granted.
Then John Marsden's (Snr.) daughter Jane arrives in Tasmania, with her new husband John Stonehouse and grandson to John Marsden. All are re-united when Jane and John apply to have both John Marsdens assigned to them. They all become wealthy land owners in Launcetson.
But my most notable convict is John Broadhurst Boothman, who was transported for stealing a sum of money from his employer. He arrived at the failed Sorrento settlement in 1803 with Collins. In 1804 he went with Collins to Tasmania where the Risden Cove settlement was moved to Hobart Town. So he was with the first settlers of "Victoria" and with the first people to settle "Hobart". He married convict Mary Cash.
Cheers, Red
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What an interesting story Red.
How lucky are you to have been able to find such good information about your convicts!
:)
- Belinda.
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Anne
That's a great site that you gave us! Wish my Irish were convicts - I'd have a lot more information about them (sigh!) (Didn't know the Dublin 1911 census had gone online. Trouble is, I have no idea if any of my Huband Smith family were alive and living in Dublin then, so not much use to me!)
In general, if you have convicts who were transported to Australia, there is a large amount of information about them, here and often in their country of origin. The same can't be said for sailors on the ships that brought them here! I can't find any information about the brief naval career of the Joshua Bentley I suspect is my ggggrandfather, so can only claim him provisionally.
MarieC
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hi all,I've enjoyed reading all your comments about convict ancestors
and I thought if you have'nt seen this database of convicts who were transported
from ireland already you might like to have a browse and 'adopt' a few ;D
anne
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/search/index.php?browse=true&category=18&subcategory=147
Yes, this a great site, which I have used before, though there was always a convict ancestor I could never find on this site. It finally got the better of yesterday, and I emailed the Irish National Archives, to see if the on-line records were complete. They promptly replied, informing me that the records were complete, and if no convict is found the site, there is no record available for him/her. Apparently, a great many convict records were totally destroyed by fire/explosion during the Irish Civil War in 1922. A very sad event, but at least the saved records have been made available to the public.
Les
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That is sad, Les - at least you know for sure that his records have been lost! :( :( You'd have lots of stuff on him from the Australian end, though, I imagine.
MarieC
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That is sad, Les - at least you know for sure that his records have been lost! You'd have lots of stuff on him from the Australian end, though, I imagine.
Yes, I'm lucky enough to know a fair bit about him. Very briefly, he married another Irish convict out here, had one daughter, and she married a convict (there's 3 out of my 8 convicts in one sentence). I have all their Aussie marriages, death and births. The only thing I never found out was the crime he was sentenced to 14 years transportation in Ireland. That question was posted on another thread, and I never received one reply - no doubt because nobody knows due the records being destroyed in the 1922 fire.
Les
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Anne
(Didn't know the Dublin 1911 census had gone online. Trouble is, I have no idea if any of my Huband Smith family were alive and living in Dublin then, so not much use to me)
MarieC
Been following this thread because my 4xgreat-grandfather (and his son, my gggg-uncle) were transported for animal theft - found the ships they went on, and the dates, but do envy those of you who have found out so much more.
My real query here is - how do I find the Dublin census? I didn't know it was online either.
Thanks - this could answer a lot of Irish questions - I'm shaking with anticipation!!
Lesley
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None. More's the pity. Always wanted one though.
Karenlee
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Been following this thread because my 4xgreat-grandfather (and his son, my gggg-uncle) were transported for animal theft - found the ships they went on, and the dates, but do envy those of you who have found out so much more.
My real query here is - how do I find the Dublin census? I didn't know it was online either.
Thanks - this could answer a lot of Irish questions - I'm shaking with anticipation!!
Lesley
I tried Google and found this - I don't know if there are other places to search
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/
Trish
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Also, as taid (Anne) said in an earlier post, there's a link to the census from the webpage she gave us. That's how I found it. Good luck, Lesley!
MarieC
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Thanks for that - it could open a few more doors, so I'm very grateful for the link.
Lesley
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I have 8 convicts in a direct line from my dad's mother, and numerous other convicts. Some married a brother/sister of the direct line. I also have ship crew on the ships and the convicts were on. Funny you should mention "Irish". I think I am about to inherit a few more.
Direct Line Convicts
Jane Walker - Marquis Cornwallis
Mary Hook - Lady Juiliana
William Kentwell - Admiral Barrington
Elizabeth Morris - Mary Ann
Samuel James - Perseus
Reuben Buckner - Pitt
Humphrey Thorn - Neptune
Rebecca Richards - Mary Ann
Sideways Convicts
James Beckett - Surprise
George Best - William & Ann
Ann Calcut - Neptune
Martha Chamberlain - Indespensible
Sophia James - Experiment
Patrick Kirk - Atlas
William Ruston - Coromandel 1
Suspected Convicts
Edward Herrington - Edward Threader
Hello Mrs Aussie Karrob,
I noticed that we have a few convicts who were transported on the same ships, ie., 'Surprize', 'William and Ann', 'Indispensible' and yet another on the 'Admiral Barrington' and here we are over 200 years later, discussing them on Rootschat 8)
Margaret
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It's a small world, Margaret! :) Makes me reflect on whether convicts from the same ship ever saw much of each other once they landed. I guess their circumstances would have made this difficult!
MarieC
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I suppose some of the convicts "saw each other" after they landed. They married each other..hahaha. Most of them it seems into my family tree....
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Hi Belinda
I have 5 convicts in family tree
David Smith (John Barry 1818) and Ann Davis (Roslin Castle 1830) (both convicts) were married in 1832 with permission in Sydney NSW. Interestingly William Jaques the Surveyor General came out on the same ship as Ann Davis and took her on as a servant. William Jaques was in regular contact with David Smith, the first white settler in Kiama and wrote a letter of reccomendation for them to be married. Ann served less than 2 years of her sentance.
William Hanson(Gilmore II 1838) and Susannah Swigg (Lloyds 1845) (both convicts) were married in 1849 with permission in Hobart TAS.
Charles Davidson (Lady Nugent 1836) from Scotland
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All of the branches on my father-in-law's side (5th generation in Australia on the oldest branch) have a convict as the first arrival in Australia, apart from one wife - and she came on a bounty ship from Ireland in 1841, which means we have not been able to find out anything about her before she stepped off the ship. :(
The records for the convict ancestors are pretty good, even down to the physical descriptions and with a newspaper article in one case which paints a vivid picture of that particular ancestor and the place he lived in.
So we're really happy to have this information, especially with the brick walls we've encountered for the other 'free' arrivals. We're pretty sure that my father-in-law's family and his parents' generation knew nothing about their convict heritage though. ;)
Jojosam
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Yes, that's one of the many reasons to celebrate having a convict or two in one's ancestry, jojosam - so much info, and often as you say so little about the ones who came free!!
It was such a shameful secret, having a convict or two in one's past, once upon a time. My two were deeply buried and unknown until a cousin dug them up (metaphorically!!!)
MarieC
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Convicts, geez! Recently I have discovered heaps of convicts in my line that I'm related to. Originally, I thought I had one but was shocked to discover that I have roughly 9 convict ancestors. Yes, I know it's a lot but Di certainly takes the cake!
- James Griffith Perram (Married daughter of Daniel Mc.)
- Daniel McCarthy
- Sion Clarkson Freebody (Second Fleeter)
- Mary Wells (wife of Sion)
- Daniel Hanchard (Second Fleeter: married daughter of Sion)
- John Green (married Daniel Hanchard's daughter)
- Samuel Freeman
- Ellen Nowland ('John Bull', 1821) Wife of Edward Taylor
- Edward Taylor ("Atlas III", 1822)
Also, it's interesting to note that these convicts are only on my paternal grandmother's side of the family.
N.B. I think I may have found another one; I was looking at the 1828 NSW Census and it seems that Samuel Freeman's wife, Elizabeth nee Smith was a convict transported for 7 years on the Canada in 1810. That'd make ten now!
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To paraphrase from "Oliver";
I wish I had a convict or two ...
Yes, how can it be that my Aus ancestors (and my children's ditto) all go back to the 1800s - earliest so far to 1841 - and not a single one came as a convict. If only - given all those wonderful details!!
Unfair, unfair ...
JAP
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Well.. my mum says to me all the time my family were all "free settlers". She's really proud of it too. If only I could find one convict on her side; then she's probably disown that side of the family! ::)
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To paraphrase from "Oliver";
I wish I had a convict or two ...
Yes, how can it be that my Aus ancestors (and my children's ditto) all go back to the 1800s - earliest so far to 1841 - and not a single one came as a convict. If only - given all those wonderful details!!
Unfair, unfair ...
JAP
Hi JAP,
Did they mainly come to Sth Aus? It never had convicts, as I recall!
MarieC
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Hi MarieC,
No. They all came to Victoria - which is where I was born and grew up.
You are right about SA not having convicts - a pity really as it would have leavened the mix. ;)
JAP
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Well.. my mum says to me all the time my family were all "free settlers". She's really proud of it too. If only I could find one convict on her side; then she's probably disown that side of the family! ::)
Hi Woodelf
My Mum was exactly the same - she loved the fact that all her ancestors were free settlers. I don't know that she was too impressed when I told her my husband came from a 1st Fleeter!! I thought it was just so wonderful.
Trish
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I think that you will find that South Australians are also proud of their "free settler" heritage. Quite a few religious dissenters arrived here from Silesia. Hence the many German place names.
PeterB
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My mum's were basically all South Australian emigrants. It gets a tad boring, I reckon all family trees need some spice by a convict or a buried family secret (lol)
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I think that you will find that South Australians are also proud of their "free settler" heritage. Quite a few religious dissenters arrived here from Silesia. Hence the many German place names.
PeterB
But to be a free settler in SA is the norm - to be a free settler in NSW & Tasmania - not such a common event :D :D
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My earliest free settlers were into Tassie in 1836 on "THe Bardcaster" unfortunately very little info to be found... the 1841 census thats it.
Two brothers and their families, they didn't stay long well one died so thats his excuse :o the other my gggf went to South Australia.
But still no convicts >:(
regards Jenn
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I am born & Bred Taswegian, so I'd have to have a few convicts in the family wouldn't I :P On the Jopson side, the 1st to migrate was my Great Grandfather Edward Beardsworth Jopson in 1852. On my Mum's side, Edwin & John Boultbee came on the "Woodlark" in 1823 as free settlers, with Edwin's future wife, Mary Allen arriving on the same boat. My 3rd Great Grandfather George Jubb, came out as a convict with Governor Bligh in 1804 on the "Fortune" & his future 2nd wife, Ann Halward came as a convict on "Sydney Cove" in 1807. My 2nd Great Grandaunt, Ann Jubb (nee Brim) was also a convict, coming out on "Jane" in 1833. My 2nd Great Grandfather Benjamin Walters & my 3rd Great Grandfather Richard Wise both came as convicts on "Earl of Spencer" in 1813 & another convict was Joseph Stanley (my 2nd Great Granduncle by marriage) came on the "Prince of Orange" in 1822. My 2nd Great Grandparents, James & Ann Elizabeth Byard (nee Sale) came as free settlers in 1853.
There's probably more convicts to turn up yet ;) It adds a bit of spice to life...but not for them unfortunately!
Mike.
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Well.. my mum says to me all the time my family were all "free settlers". She's really proud of it too. If only I could find one convict on her side; then she's probably disown that side of the family! ::)
My old aunt always said "Well, if there's any convicts in the family, they would have to be on your uncle's side ...."
Famous last words, you know whose side there was six convicts on and whose side pure English emigrant!!!
Jean
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Jean, ;D ;D ;D
Isn't it nice that we celebrate our convict forebears now - we are no longer ashamed of them!!!! :)
MarieC
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It depends on what you would classify as a convict in those times. I have one that was transported for 7 years for "stealing my finding a ladies handkerchief" He was walking home and found it in the ditch as the side of the road.
Would that be a criminal act in these times, I think not.
He went on after he gained hsi freedom to become a Constable in the Australian Force and was an explorer for the Austalian Government.
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Dancing Master,
There are hundreds, perhaps thousands of stories like this in Australia. People sentenced for laughable "crimes" who went on to forge successful lives in the new country! Sometimes I think Britain did them a favour by transporting them! ::)
MarieC
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Well done Di, you are the Queen of Convicts :D It doesn't sound so flattering like that but I've gotta give it to you...17 is hard to top :P
Mike. (I'm not worthy!)
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Assertions that crimes committed by convicts were not really crimes seems to me almost like continuing (at just one small step removed) earlier claims that families did not have convict forebears...
JAP
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Assertions that crimes committed by convicts were not really crimes seems to me almost like continuing (at just one small step removed) earlier claims that families did not have convict forebears..
Its not that our ancestors weren't criminals, its just the punishment doesn't fit the crime in most cases. Then again, I'm not complaining as I wouldn't be here (Australia or the planet?) if my 8 ancestors weren't transported.
Les
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Assertions that crimes committed by convicts were not really crimes seems to me almost like continuing (at just one small step removed) earlier claims that families did not have convict forebears...
JAP
My MIL was definitely not happy on discovering she descended from a first fleeter. With due lawyer's dilligence I investigated his arrest, trial and conviction & decided it was a definite miscarriage of justice. I then did the same for his "wife" (probably a bigamous marriage) who was a second fleeter - and she was found to be definitely guilty ;D ;D So either which way, definitely descended from a convict - which we have now convinced the MIL is something to be most proud about.
In many areas of our lives - it seems to take over 100 years for old ideas/concerns to be overturned. Within my own families the ideas that "free settlers" were far superior to convict origins were absolute convictions in the 19th century, suspect in the 20th century & completely turned around in the 21st century. We eventually realised everyone who came to Australia in the 18th/19th century played a large part in who we are, but the convicts, forced to be the labour force of a new world, perhaps paid much more than their fair share.
Trish
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Assertions that crimes committed by convicts were not really crimes seems to me almost like continuing (at just one small step removed) earlier claims that families did not have convict forebears..
Its not that our ancestors weren't criminals, its just the punishment doesn't fit the crime in most cases.
Les
Completely agree with you, Les! Many convicts committed minor crimes out of desperation - they were not hardened criminal types. Often, they were still children when they offended. Once here, they took the opportunities that presented themselves, and lived lives of some achievement and happiness. My two ancestors fall into this category.
An excellent example is William Henry Groom, who came on the "Hashemy" in 1848 as an "exile" after committing a minor crime. He was by far the most significant of Toowoomba's founding fathers. He was mayor seven times, represented the city in the Queensland Legislative Assembly from Separation till Federation (he became Speaker of the Legislative Assembly), and then was elected as Toowoomba's first representative in the Federal Parliament, where he died late in 1901. As well, he was involved in just about every important enterprise in Toowoomba in these years. He actively promoted the interests of the emerging middle class (of which he was a member) against the attempts at dominance by the wealthy landed class, the "squatters".
It took almost a century for his importance to be recognised - perhaps because of his origins. Thankfully, he now is well and truly recognised in the city!
MarieC
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Hey - I seem (unintentionally) to have stirred up a bit of a hornet's nest ;)
I wasn't saying that the many of the crimes were not minor - many many were and some were incredibly minor and were committed by children. But not all!! I was just making a comment that the motives of those who seek to prove that their convicts committed only minor crimes or non-crimes seem to me to have some similarity to those earlier people who didn't want to acknowledge convict ancestry at all. :D Are the current people saying that there are degrees of convict ancestry - bad ones are unacceptable but minor ones are OK? ;)
The closest to a convict in my own research (to date - I'm still hoping!!) is my children's paternal GggUncle. His crime was a white-collar crime - but most definitely a crime (forgery and uttering). In 1847, in Fife, he forged the signatures on bills of his own uncle and of his titled landlord. He was sentenced in Perth in 1848 to 7 years transportation and served a couple of years on the prison hulks in Portsmouth. He was just about to be shipped off when he was pardoned - and the submissions in his defence came from all the gentry and important people of his area (excluding, however, his uncle!! - but including his landlord's son); when it comes to white-collar crime, plus ca change, eh .... Anyway, my "convict" came to Melbourne of his own volition 2 or 3 years later and made a great success in business (surprise, surprise!).
My children's Gggma married, late in life, a former convict (a very hard man from all documented reports). His English descendants (of his first marriage of three or four) certainly downplay his "crime" - well, who knows ...
Anyway, I'm very sorry for any offence unintentionally caused.
Cheers,
JAP (still hoping for a convict of my own; non-convict - though a thorough rogue - Henry HACKING, Quartermaster of the 'Sirius' in the First Fleet, is said to be related according to family folklore but this is most certainly unproven and unquestionably he is not a forebear).
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Anyway, I'm very sorry for any offence unintentionally caused.
JAP (still hoping for a convict of my own; ).
Certainly no offence taken. I was just saying that some of the penalties back in those days were a bit harsh eg; 7 years transportation for stealing a piece of material. I have seen the Court papers of one ancestor who was convicted of stealing. The sentence is actually written "To be hanged. Transportion for Life" Phew, by the stroke of a pen his life was spared. I guess back in those days the old saying "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime" really meant what it inferred!
Best of luck with your own convict searching, I do hope you can find one, and be a member of the "Club".
Les
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Hi Les,
I suspect I'll never be a member of the "Club" :'(
My lot were terribly terribly boring and ordinary ...
I do sometimes wonder whether perhaps, back then, the crime which resulted in the conviction, might - like now - have been the only one which could lead to a conviction but might have hidden other known crimes which couldn't quite be proven. But who knows ;)
However one never knows what will come along!
A relative of mine (on my maternal side) went along to a 'show and tell' genealogical meeting where someone got up and described how her rell, a barmaid, had been shot by mistake in a hotel by the jealous lover of the female hotel owner. To my rell's shock, it turned out that the the hotel owner was (disappointingly for me, it was on her paternal side) her Great-Aunt! :o
There are always shocks lying in wait ...
JAP
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I also think you misread some of the responses JAP - I was attempting to explain it was rather pointless to research whether someone was guilty or not - they were transported regardless.
The 18th century experiment of convicting anyone of the most minor crimes, simply proved that society cannot afford the gaols required for this type of system & when other countries will no longer take your outcasts, an alternative is needed. We seem to have gone a full circle, as today western societies are much more likely to complain that the "courts are too lenient" rather than that the sentence was way too long for such a minor offence. It rather proves my thoughts on most things in society - we go round in circles every 50-100 years.
Trish
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Agree, Trish! The wheel always turns and we arrive at a state of affairs that has existed before (and before and before and before....!)
I do think JAP is misreading some responses here. There certainly were some hardened criminals transported, no doubt about it, but I think all I was doing was pointing out how minor offenders, including children, were punished disproportionately, and used their initiative to make good in the new country. I wouldn't care if I did find a serious offender in my background - it would spice up the family tree a little!
MarieC
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Nearly all mine were sent to Oz for stealing something except for an Irishman who was recorded as "giving the English Hell". Another guy forged bank notes - the Bank of England took a dim view of that and took him to court ::) (some people have no sense of humour!!)
I certainly wouldn't say that all, or even any, of my lot were not guilty but the sentence of LIFE for being in possession of a stollen handkerchief certainly is a bit over the top.
I believe that, even though they all probably worked themselves into an early grave - all for our benefit - in most cases they had a far better life here compared to "home"
and I applaud every one of them.
Di
:D
(Thanks Joppo - I think :-\ )
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How do you find out why they were sent here?
- Belinda.
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How do you find out why they were sent here?
- Belinda.
Hi Belinda
I found mine through the trial in England - they were at the Old Bailey which is online
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/
I think all the counties have records - but others could tell you more than myself about the different areas.
Trish
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Hi All,
I would like others to tell us when they think the 'cover up' began in their family regarding the convict origins.
When in their previous generations was it decided that nothing would be said about 'all that'
I can say with certainty that my fatherand siblings knew nothing of their mother's grandfather and grandmother who were both
Tasmanian convicts married with permission in he 1840's
I would be almost certain also that she, their mother, was in dark regarding the truth about about the 'nice farming family from Victoria'.
The fact was that my George Cornish was absolutely uncontrollable as a prisoner and kept having his sentence extended for drunkeness, insubordination, insulting his master's daughter, stealing things and , amazingly, making a pair of boots without permission!
He had solitary, bread and water, he had lashings ...the lot.
Finally, at Spring Hill, there was a fire in one of his mater's outhouses and he raised the alarm, and was very helpful in extinguishing it. The governor saw fit to quickly end his punishment.
I think they were just sick of him.!!
None of this great story was known to immediate previous generations, so when did the cover up begin?
Sue
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Hi All,
In 1864 my 2x Great G'father (free settler) married the daughter of a convict. They (or someone) started the story that they had met on the boat coming to Oz. It didn't take long to disprove the story but even my father today still pretends that we don't have convicts in the family.
So I'd say that the "shame" of marrying a convict probably started with the "free" ones as they didn't have a lot of choice back then and just made up anything to cover the facts.
Of course, in most of my lines, I have convict marrying convict so they were probably spared the "horror and shame" as they were all in the same boat (so to speak)
I guess it was probably the old English mentality of never marrying beneath themselves that started the stories. Of course, some of the convicts actually came from far better families than some free stettlers but the stigma of being, or being a descendant of, (a convict) stuck for a very long time.
Thanks goodness for our enlightened generation.
Di
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Sorry Belinda - meant to answer your query as well.
Somewhere on most of the shipping, ticket of leave, musters, Colonial Secretarys index, etc records, a place of trial or name of the ship is normally mentioned.
I was lucky that about half of mine were tried at the Old Bailey in London. So the records are freely available. To search the other ones, I checked the assizes records in the county they came from. That worked for about 98%. The Irish ones are the greatest "challenge" but there are a few databases available on line now that show some of the Irish crimes although the information is rather limited.
Every one of my convicts came into Sydney. But if you find one going to Tasmania, you'll find that their shipping records provide so much more information including, in some cases, their parents, wife, children's names.
Unfortunately NSW doesn't have any of that information so trying to trace the parents of convicts can be a bit of a challenge at times.
Di
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Hi All,
I would like others to tell us when they think the 'cover up' began in their family regarding the convict origins.
Sue
Hi Sue
My husband's convicts arrived in Tasmania in 1808 from Norfolk Is - by this time they were free as both were convicted about 1784 - arrived in NSW in 1788/9 and by the time they got to Norfolk had virtually completed their 7 years.
So the cover-up began in 1808 :o :o - as it did with the hundreds of other ex convict families who arrived in Tasmania at this time. As Mike mentioned earlier, if you have a Tasmanian heritage, there is usually a convict or two in the family.
We have a wonderful family tree created in the late 1800s which shows the family descending from a wealthy british family of the same name (bit of a shady link as to how they got to Australia).
Current generations found out in the 1970s - but until I started researching (30 years later) - nobody told me ::) ::)
Trish
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Hi All,
That is a wonderful tale, Trish, about the semi-invented family heritage which was not yours ::)
You would wonder though why the second cover up took place in the 1970's. Perhaps we were still under shame constraints as recently as that.
In all the family stories I used to half listen to as a child, the word Tasmania was never mentioned. The convict couple died there and within a few months, the offspring [adult by now] had moved to country Victoria farming. One of these men my father remembered..... He was my Dad's grandfather and I think the headstrong temperament was evident in this old man [he was not easy], but he obviously never said a word about who his parents were.
Like yours Trish, the forbears seemed to have just sort of arrived on a ship and were good English stock. ;D
Sue
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I'd say that in my family, the cover-up began in 1881 when a woman who was both the grand-daughter and great-grand-daughter of convicts married a man who became a Member of the Legislative Council in Queensland. From then on, the family was ultra-respectable and I'm sure later generations had no idea about the convicts until my second cousin unearthed them!
MarieC
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So, MarieC,
Do you think that this woman you speak of knew her own parental and grandparental background and chose to not mention it?
Or do you think from the time of her birth she was led into a different way of thinking and so did not herself know?
Sue
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It's hard to know from this distance, Sue!
But I suspect that she did know, but since she married into a very respectable middle-class family (who came from a line of gentlemen farmers and maltsters in Wales), it was put into the background and not spoken of!
That was the Victorian era, when even here respectability was sought and prized! (And probably a good pinch of hypocrisy coming along with it!)
MarieC
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Somewhere along the lines my grandmother's family covered it up. (Well if you had 10 convicts in your history; you'd want to back then!) My grandmother obviously didn't know about the convicts because when she did find out she was as proud as punch..
..Elfie.. :D
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Funny old times, eh!
Obviously (from earlier posts) I'm totally deficient on convicts.
But, as for cover-ups ...
I've mentioned Henry HACKING, Quartermaster of the 'Sirius' of the 1st Fleet and said (family folklore) to be connected to my Liverpool HACKINGs who came in 1850 (absolutely not a smidgin of proof of this - and I'm sure that those who claimed him would have been shocked if they'd known what a rogue Henry was). Henry returned to England and then returned to Aus - and was an absolute rogue (though obviously well-regarded by people of influence); twice sentenced to death, twice escaped the death penalty.
Anyway, true descendants of Henry (and his convict wife!) on one line played ducks and drakes with their ancestry - to the utter confusion of later descendants. A granddaughter of Henry HACKING via his son Edward said that her grandfather was a Captain Henry AIKEN, captain of a ship on the First Fleet; that he subsequently came out on another ship that he owned; that the HACKINGs were terrible people; and that Port Hacking (most definitely named after the rogue Henry) should have been named Port Aiken ...
Ah, what a tangled web ...
JAP
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I've always thought it was just so easy for folks to cover up their history when they came to Australia in the 18th/19th centuries - as convicts or free folks. Every piece of family folklore I have investigated to date has been based on a lie! Even my ever so respectable gg grandmother from Scotland lied about her age - when she married a man 10 years younger.
I doubt any of them had any idea that 100-200 years later, as if by magic, we would be discovering their true roots and family histories - sometimes I think they should have been allowed to bury their secrets.
But recently, my neighbour asked me to investigate a few of her family secrets/stories/folklore & everything she knew turned out to be true - what an honest group (despite there being a few convicts included) :D
Trish
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... Every piece of family folklore I have investigated to date has been based on a lie! ... Trish
Trish, I hate to say this but every piece of my own family folklore that I have investigated to date (apart from the supposed silly connexion with Henry HACKING) has been based on fact! Even down to the exact streets where my HACKINGs and BAYESs (who came in 1850) lived in Liverpool and their occupations ... What a sad boring lot I have. >:(
JAP
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Well ,Jap,
Convicts aside for the moment, I have found my recent forbears to be very flexible about the truth as recently as the 1920's if it meant things looking or sounding better at the right school. How brazenly tragic :'(
I really do know and appreciate your enormous experience in this game, but just keep digging...... a litttle snobby lie will surely emerge ;)
Sue
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Dear Sue,
I'd love to find a lie that would lead back to something exciting - and naughty - about my own proven ancestors! But I fear they are utterly and completely boring!
From the Liverpool HACKINGs/London BAYESs English side I have cabinetmakers-pub-owners/portmanteau makers (came to Aus from Liverpool 1850).
From the London SULLIVAN-SULLIVAN English (ex Irish) side who knows what they were - suggestions are army or pub-keepers (married in Aus 1852).
The Yorkshire TRIPPITs equally boring (Gran b 1873 and came to Aus via NZ ca 1890 and m Gpa SULLIVAN). Oh yes, I think Gran TRIPPIT had an ex-nuptial child with Gpa SULLIVAN before they were married and before my father was born - but not really exciting.
From the Irish (Galway) STANTON-DONOGHUE side, Irish Ag Labs (came to Aus 1841).
From the Irish (Mayo) BURKE-RAFFERTY side, Irish pub or shopkeepers or whatever (in Aus in the 1850s/1860s).
From the Scots HALL (wherefrom? - a lettercarrier) - MCLAUSE (Stirlingshire masons) side (Jane Ann HALL married in Aus 1852) ...
From Jane Ann HALL's husband, James Christie ROBINSON's side (he perhaps a mariner - who knows)! Born Exeter??
Boring, boring, boring ...
Obviously there were some of us who had no convicts and were totally and thoroughly boring, boring, boring ...
If only ... ::)
JAP
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Well now JAP
That is one term that we could not attribute to you... BORING ...never
regards JEnn ;D
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Hi Jenn,
Well, that's a very puzzling comment indeed ;)
But IF what you say is true (seems odd) what can I offer other than that I was talking about my unutterably boring forebears (not my equally boring self!) ...
All the verye best,
JAP (boring - and of the very boring forebears) ...
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JAP,
See if Lady Di will donate you one of her convicts! She's got plenty and to spare! ;D ;D
MarieC
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Hi MarieC,
That wouldn't be proper! They surely have to be of one's own blood (insofar as any of us can be certain of our many paternal lines!)!
Ah well, at least my children's paternal side has the GggUncle who was convicted of forgery & uttering and sentenced in 1848 to 7 years transportation - though he didn't actually sail to Vic as a convict (he sailed later as a free chappie - after being on the Portsmouth hulks but pardoned).
Convicts or no, I guess those of our forebears who were in Melbourne back in the 1840s and even later probably ran into each other ... Especially in the churches. My earliest lot were Irish Roman Catholics who probably met many others of that faith in St Francis Melbourne. I've been in that church fairly recently and it's a real meeting place for people of that faith from the Philippines - I suspect that's a bit what it was like for my Irish back in the early days ...
All the best,
JAP
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I flew into Perth, SWA. in 2003, i was asked did i have a criminal record ?, i answered, i did'nt think you still needed one.
Bodger
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I flew into Perth, SWA. in 2003, i was asked did i have a criminal record ?, i answered, i did'nt think you still needed one.
Bodger
;D ;D - in these days of political correctness and supposed terrorists - you were lucky to be allowed in after such a comment ;D ;D Maybe you found the soul immigration officer with a sense of humour.
Trish
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JAP,
Just joking!! ;D ;D ;D (Thought Lady Di mightn't miss one or two! ;D)
Bodger ;D ;D I love it!
Trish - do ANY immigration officers have a sense of humour? They're not known for it generally! :D
MarieC
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Trish - do ANY immigration officers have a sense of humour? They're not known for it generally! :D
MarieC
When flying into other countries (outside Australia) I have never been "game" to find out (given they can instantly send you home). After waiting 2 hours at immigration in Hawai - I saw the man in front of us sent to the end of the queue because the Imm man said his form was not written neatly enough - not even a chance to tell him what was on it - maybe he thought that was funny :(
When flying into Australia - in my experience - No
Trish
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Awww J A P - - would you like to just adopt a convict ;)
I understand that your Hall family have some connection to THE Ben Hall - if they haven't, a little white lie wouldn't hurt.
Fact always ruins a good story!!
Di
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No, No, No Lady Di -
Don't tell anyone you are related to Ben Hall - the story just keeps getting bigger and bigger!!
As a member of the Family History Group, near where Ben Hall was shot in 1865, we received a letter from a lady twelve months or more ago, saying that not only was she related to Ned Kelly, but Ned Kelly's sister married Ben Hall ! !
Absolutely up the wrong tree - and she was told at a family gathering / reunion by some of the "oldtimers" that this was absolute truth.
Just for the record - Kate Kelly was born about 1859 and died in 1898, while Ben Hall died in 1865. So, unless she was an exceptional forthright child, there is no way.
We never heard from the lady again so I assume that she didn't believe us....
Jean
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Thanks Jean,
I just thought that J A P may have wanted to spice up her family "stories" a little. :D
Oh well, I'll just have to foster out a few more of my "unwanted" POMS!! ;)
Merry Christmas
Di
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Di
My last posting came from pure frustration - I apologise.
Maybe I should also explain, if you are not aware that not only is Ben Hall buried in Forbes cemetery (NSW) but also Kate Foster (nee Kelly, sister of Ned Kelly, bushranger).
I suspect there has been a good few "unwanted" English people fostered out to Australia over the last 200+ years in one way or another.
Happy Christmas to you.
Jean
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No apology necessary Jean.
A few of my ancestors are also buried in and around the area. I know it well :)
Regards
Di
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Awww J A P - - would you like to just adopt a convict ;)
I understand that your Hall family have some connection to THE Ben Hall - if they haven't, a little white lie wouldn't hurt.
Fact always ruins a good story!!
Di
Although Jean doesn't agree, I think it's a great idea - think of all the time future family historians will spend trying to prove/disprove an association. I have spent many enjoyable hours/days/weeks disproving all the family stories passed on to me (& proving the ones I was never told about). 8) 8)
Trish
Edit
Hi Jean - no worries - One of my family stories related to Ben Hall - my g grandfather supposedly kept a "hide out" stacked with food to provide sustenance for Ben and others. This was a very quick one to disprove - my man didn't arrive in Australia until 1885!!
Merry Christmas to you too :) :)
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Isn't it amazing how people make up all these stories but get the basic facts wrong ::)
I still have one final "unknown" in my Oz family tree who (I believe) made up the most unbelievable fantastic stories and unfortunately I have been unable to prove or disprove any of them. If he was right - he was richer than the Queen, if he was telling "porkies" - he probably was descended from (another!!) convict. What are the chances?
Di
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To Redmr2red, I am descendant of John Marsden Snr too. I found this out recently. Jane his daughter was 8th generation back. There are a number of us in NZ. Pipp
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I am a direct descendant of 10 convicts.They were all transported to NSW.Of these 8 were married couples.Only 2 didnt marry fellow convicts,but married free settlers.But the son of one of these married the daughter of convicts.There is a lot of intermarrying with other convict families thus so many in my family tree.
Chinka
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Hi all,
What a fantastic thread.
My third great grandfather, George Chatterley, had hung on the edge of my tree for a number of years before I received an enquiry from an Aussie researcher who asked whether he was the George Chatterley who arrived in Oz aboard the Lady Castlereagh in 1818. I didn't know but the information my Aussie contact was offering tied in with what I had so I started on a long and truly rematkable historical quest which finally uncovered a gang of note forgers who had operated here in Birmingham, England, from about 1806 until it came crashing down in 1817 and George, among others, was sentenced to transportation for 14 years, ending up in TAS. His wife remarried, bigamously, two years later.
I now have a mass of information on George but the one thing which eludes me is the cause of his death on 18 Sep 1822. He was buried in Hobart two days later. Please can anyone help me complete the puzzle?
Keith
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Hi Keith if you click onto the link below it will take you to Tasmanian Names Index.In the search bar (next to where it says All Fields)at the top of the page write George Chatterley and then click onto the red magnifying glass next to it and it will give you two records to view of George.One is his convict records and the other his death record.No information of how he died :(
http://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net.au/client/en_AU/names/
Johngirl
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.... finally uncovered a gang of note forgers who had operated here in Birmingham, England, from about 1806 until it came crashing down in 1817 and George, among others, was sentenced to transportation for 14 years, ending up in TAS. His wife remarried, bigamously, two years later.
Bigamous marriages have been discussed at length at RChat, particularly when one of the parties has been sentenced to transportation beyond the seas for seven years or more. May I please suggest that the marriage had effectively ended with that 1817 sentence, and that the injured party (ie George's wife) may have been married the second time, without fear of being charged with bigamy....
See the following link
http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html
And from the same author (A Professor of Law) :
"Also, in 1820, the Reverend John Youl stated that there was a general belief among the convicts that 'those who had been transported to this country are released from their matriomonial engagements'." from one paragraph (on page 27), of a reference text :
To Have But Not to Hold: A History of Attitudes to Marriage and Divorce in Australia 1858-1975 9781862875425
https://www.federationpress.com.au/bookstore/book.asp?isbn=9781862875425#bookcontents
https://www.federationpress.com.au/pdf/EvattsSpeech.pdf
I now have a mass of information on George but the one thing which eludes me is the cause of his death on 18 Sep 1822. He was buried in Hobart two days later. Please can anyone help me complete the puzzle?
Civil registrations of BDM events commence in VDL in 1837, so you will only find a burial register rather than a death certificate giving a certified cause of death.
The Burial register for St Davids (C of E), Hobart, is available online, free to search, via Tasmania Archives and Johngirl has given you that live link
George Chatterly, died 18th September (1822), buried 20th September, 40 years of age, arrived on the Lady Castlereagh, he was under a current sentence of a court (“Convict”)., and the Rev Knopwood performed the burial.
Have you searched the digitised newspapers from that era?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/search?adv=y
Hobart Town Gazette and Van Diemen’s Land Advertiser
Hobart Town Gazette and Southern Reporter
Cheers, JM
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I have four convicts, looking for more
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I have not read all of the thread BUT it is so "fashionable" now to have a convict connection.
I knew when I was a wee child that I was descendent from convicts. ( not proper grammar)
Thomas was one of the Wiltshire Machine Breakers & Mary uttered Base Coin.
I think the generation prior did not discuss such matters as we do now.
I must say I find family research fascinating -- I just wish I had stated umpteen years earlier
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Hi Majm and Johngirl,
I already have some of the information you suggest and it is the absence of a cause of death attached to his convict recors which arouses my suspicion. I must admit that I hadn't thought to try newspaper archives. That is something I nust delve into.
With regard to George's wife's remarriage, with eight chilfren it would have been a simple economic neccessity, With the end of the Napoleonic Wars in 1815 and the resultant loss of military contracts Birmingham's economy had all but collapsed, which, I'm guessing, is what led George into crime. There was mass unemployment and he had a large family to feed.
Thank you both for the links you have provided.
Keith
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Is this wierd, or what? Despite George Chatterley's 1822 death I have now uncovered what appears to be a "release" date on 1 August 1831. It must be the right George because it mentions the Lady Castlereagh.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/8646004?searchTerm=George%20Chatterley&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom|||dateTo|||sortby|||l-state=Tasmania
Keith
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Hi Keith,
I am not sure IF the lieutenant governor's administrative processes in 1822 required him to be notified of the name of the deceased person being buried. But I do know that it was logical for the governor's administration to issue Certificates of Freedom once the sentence had been served. Your chap was sentenced to 14 years transportation beyond the seas. So, perhaps the admin were simply notifying that those 14 years had expired, but were not aware of his decease.
...... period for which the under-mentioned persons were transported expiring at the date opposite their names,Certificates of Freedom may be obtained on that or at any subsequent period, upon application to this Office, or to that of a Police Magistrate in the Interior :-
The notice does not say that George collected his Certificate of Freedom.....
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM.
Thanks for your thoughts on that. I had pretty much come to the same conclusion. It's obvious that the left habd not knowing what the right hand is doing is not simply a modern phenomenon,
Thanks again.
Keith
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Hi Bellejaz,
I am 5th generation Aussie and descended from two Convicts, John Nicholls was a First Fleet convict (1788 - ship - Scarborough) who married Ann Pugh, also a convict. After his term was served he ended up with a rather large land grant for farming which is now Parramatta NSW.
They had numerous children, I'm still tracing some of them. :)
Kind Regards,
Milly Mac.
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I have 5 convicts in the family tree.... 4 on the Eleanor.. being 2 brothers and 2 cousins.....
however nort of those is my direct line....... BUT are related directly....... each one of them had interesting lives and are well recorded....... the brother of the 5th convict was an equally nasty little fellow and got the convict in trouble but didnt get sent to Australia.
Between the two latter ones mentioned they stole a bible , amongst other things, belonging to their grandfather...... it took some doing and research to track the life of the bible published in 1761; and cost a thousand dollars to get the bible out of a bookshop which had been out of the family for nearly 225 years.
I see someone else posted the Eleanor here and as that person probably knows Tasmania is a reflection of Wiltshire in names and families......... but at the end of the day and night its better to have a convict in the family than none at all cos at least u have some stories to tell.....
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Still looking. Haven't properly researched my fathers side yet.
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Just saw the topic, even though it was written awhile ago, thought I would post something. I am related to 6 convicts. I am still researching my mother's mums side.
Michael Noy (stole a donkey- 14 year sentence)
Mary Ann Davis (8 year old who forged money)
Ann Monks (stole clothes)
George Howes (machine smasher in industrial revolution)
John Dodds (burglar- life sentence)
Mary Gager (forged money)
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My goodness ..... and I was thrilled when I finally managed to confirm ONE convict ancestor on board the Lucy Davidson arriving in 1829. And stereotypically her crime was stealing silk ..... but not a hankerchief - 'twas reams of the stuff!
Her convict indent states that her mother "Ellen Davies" was already in the colony having allegedly arrived/transported on the Princess Charlotte. Problem is that there is no "Ellen Davies" listed on the Princess Charlotte in 1827 (1824 trip no good - male convicts). So there is a possibility of one another ancestral convict in my DNA!
cocksie
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Today I found my first Convicts.
Jonathan Harris, He was convicted of stealing from his master, He was transported on the Marquis of Hastings to Sydney.
Another is Mary Ann Squire who ended up marrying Jonathan, She was transported to Tasmania on board Anna Maria.
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a comment on an earlier post>>>>>>
I am fairly certain that Ben Hall did marry Bridget Walsh or "Biddy" as she was affectionately known. not a Kelly related person. Biddy did end up moving in with someone else only after ol Pottinger had distroyed the place at Sandy Creek which included letting the cattle perish from lack of water...... gawd another goldseeker trying to connect themselves to our heritage,,,, struth. Well I hope u sent her on her way
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a comment on an earlier post>>>>>>
I am fairly certain that Ben Hall did marry Bridget Walsh or "Biddy" as she was affectionately known. not a Kelly related person. Biddy did end up moving in with someone else only after ol Pottinger had distroyed the place at Sandy Creek which included letting the cattle perish from lack of water...... gawd another goldseeker trying to connect themselves to our heritage,,,, struth. Well I hope u sent her on her way
Yes, Ben Hall did marry Bridget Walsh. That marriage was 29 Feb 1856, and the NSW BDM index shows it as Benjamin HALL and Bridget WALSH, and gives the early church code as "LG" which indicates a Roman Catholic Ceremony, Bathurst, Kelso, St Michael's, Co Bathurst
Family search has it as Banjamin HALL and Bridget Walsh. https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTZJ-HZD
I suspect the apparent connection to the Kelly Gang is simply that Ben Hall is buried in the same cemetery as Ned Kelly's sister Kate.
Cheers, JM
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Being born and bred in South Australia, it always seemed very unlikely I would have convict ancestors. That is, until I started delving more seriously into my maternal grandmother's mysterious family. It seems I am descended from 2 convicts, both of whom were transported to Tasmania, and both ended up in South Australia. I have no facts, but it is very possible they knew (of) each other, as one's son "married" the other's daughter. Throw in several Irish spouses, and it makes an extremely interesting, and difficult, line to research.
And I never used to celebrate St. Patrick's Day....... ;)
Edited: I nearly forgot my wife's seemingly only convict ancestor. Her 4x great grandfather's brother was transported for forgery, and fraud. Now if only I can connect this family to the respectable family of the same name mentioned at his trial; but they claimed not to know him!
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What's interesting to me is that many descendants in my trees ended up in places where there was no transportation eg South Australia and New Zealand, so even folk in those places can claim convict ancestry.
I have 1 definite and maybe 1 more. My son has mine and 1 on his mothers side.
' its just not talked about'
I have done some Trove searches and placed my ancestors ( Father/Son) on a property.
Read a book on ''Early S.A Rural Pioneers '' and reading on H.E. Jones where I found the Trove mention.... '' Jones only employed Ticket of Leave men on his property apart from 1'' and that 1 wasn't Richard or Charles ;D
Its interesting now that generation Jones' are getting over that hill we embrace our convicts more readily than our grandparents
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I've always thought it was just so easy for folks to cover up their history when they came to Australia in the 18th/19th centuries - as convicts or free folks.
Trish
Yes. The Richard I mentioned may well not be a Blacksell but a Blackstone or Blackson or ???? It has stumped a few minds who have gone in search.
And how do we then weave a different name - not just poor phonetics but deliberate deception - into our own understanding of who we are? Let the philosophy start