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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Denbighshire => Wales => Denbighshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: lidgett on Saturday 24 November 07 23:14 GMT (UK)
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Help
Elizabeth Taylor, widow on 1851 with children ranging from Sarah b 1807 to twins Margaret and Martha b 1845 all in Abenbury Fawr, all saying father James Taylor, a tailor. Any chance anyone can find her marriage for her maiden name, etc. Elizabeth died 1866 according to death cert reported by daughter Mary Griffiths she was then 86. I haven't been able to confirm the twins births on the GRO or North Wales bmd.
Lidgett
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Given that the Twins are only given as six year old,and Elizabeth is given as 66 years old as I see from the actual entry,I don't think the Twins are her daughters.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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Hello WRJ
No I thought they might have been grandchildren,born to a maiden daughter perhaps, but it still might have led to something. But I can't spot any twins by the names of Margaret and Martha. The only other child born after 1837 is a John, of which there are many! I just hoped someone miught have access to the parish registers for marriage, or possibly even for the baptisms of some of her children, Maria born c1836 my GGGrandma for example?.......
Nice to hear from you again,
Lidgett
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I have to say I am as puzzled as you are by these apparent Twins,Martha and Margaret Taylor and the non appearance in the same Quarter and Year in the GRO Birth Index.Martha Taylor appears in the October Quarter of 1844,and there are two Margaret Taylors in the October Quarter of 1845.Have you possibly tried to obtain the Birth Certificate for the Martha that is showing to start with?As far as the Parish Registers are concerned,they would only appear in these if they were Baptised at Wrexham St Giles,and they wouldn't appear if Baptised at any Non Conformist Chapel.
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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I'm afraid,looking at your post again;Can you seriously suggest that Elizabeth could give Birth to children in 1807 and 1845?
Regards
William Russell Jones
Cefn Mawr
Wrexham.
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In 1861 I have found both Martha and Margaret aged 18.
Martha is a servant in the household of James Ellis aged 45 in Dutton Diffeth.
Margaret is a servant with William Phillips aged 45 wife Mary 49 in Cacca Dutton.
So it seems that they were born about 1843 according to the census record.
Also in 1861 an Elizabeth Taylor, house servant , widow, aged 76 b about 1785 at Llanfair Denbs is living in Gresford .
This still doesnT help with their father though ??? ??? ???
There are a couple of Martha`s and Margarets on North Wales BMD but not in the same year. ???
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Hello Wilcoxon and WRJ
Thanks for your comments.
Just for the record Wilcoxon, the Elizabeth living in as a housemaid you mention is living with the Sarah b 1807 mentioned in my first post. She married John Bythell , and I am in touch with a descendant of theirs, as we are trying to piece it all together. She also states her father as James the tailor. But there is an entry for Elizabeth b 1876 in Abenbury Fawr and in 1851 she states'tailor's widow washer woman living in her own house'. In 1861 she is living with her daughter Mary who married Edward Griffiths in 1852. Another son of Elizabeth turns up in 1881 living with Mary Griffiths daughter Elizabeth who by then is married to George Edwards, he is described as Robert Taylor age 60 Uncle. I have followed these families as well as I can through the censuses and Martha and Margaret (noted as twins in 1851) are I believe the ones Wilcoxon mentions. Martha marries Robert Thomas of Aldford Cheshire in 1860. The cheshire parish records show this and she states her father James a tailor, as does Maria when she married Richard Thomas of Aldford in 1856. Maria is in Pickhill as a servant in 1851, not living with her mother. These along with those shown on the 1851 census are all the children of Elizabeth I have identified so far .
I started looking for the twins as I thought they would be easiest to spot in the registers,but no. Now they are a mystery instead of a solution! It is intriguing.
In the interests of genealogy all I really need is someone who could look up a marriage for James and Elizabeth, however with there being so much confusion over when the marriage might have taken place I can see this could be difficult.
Lidgett
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Not really a solution but I`ve found a Martha Taylor registered Dec qtr 1844 Wrexham and two Margaret Taylors in Dec qtr 1845.
Have you thought that the `twins` could have been sisters born less than a year apart, and the census clerk put twins down as he saw they were the same age. ??? ??? ???
I can look in Wrexham PRs for you when I`m in Wrexham museum again,
sometime soon.
Sooooooo we are looking for marriage of James the tailor , and Elizabeth ? b 1786?, This `should` be in trancscriptions as its before 1807, Sarah`s birth.
Later ones are one micro film and I`ll need a reader.
Then the children of this couple , and finally the `twins` ??? ??? ???
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hello Wilcoxon
I wouldn't want to put you to all that trouble. The marriage if you can find it, yes please, I would very much like that. I hope you are right and it has been transcribed so it will be easy for you. As you can tell there could be a problem with the date if Sarah is a red herring. That would make Mary or Robert the oldest known child c 1821. Sarah b 1807 and Maria b 1836 are the only children that are on the direct lines, and as for the twins, well as I said I am just curious about where they might fit in, I'll leave them up to you. I have no idea how long this might take you but I'd be grateful for just the marriage.
Thank you very much
Lidgett
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Wilcoxon
Just re-read the posts, Elizabeth was born circa 1780 if she was 86 when she died in 1866 or 1786 according to the census, your entry was probably just a typo but I thought I ought to make it clear.
Cheers
Lidgett
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1851
Elizabeth Taylor, 66
May Taylor, 30
James Taylor, 24
William Taylor, 15
John Taylor, 12
Margaret Taylor, 6
Martha Taylor, 6
In St Giles PRs I found.
1806 Dec 31 marriage of James Taylor ba a tailor and Elizabeth Evans sps.
both otp. Banns.
Wittnesses were Martha Taylor and Thos Wainwright.
Baptisms . All children of James and Elizabeth Taylor, Tailor. Abenbury Fawr.
1807 Oct 7. Sarah.
1810 born Jan 18 bapt Apr 29 . Elizabeth.
1813 Jan 7 William
1816 Feb 3 Mary
1819 Jan 27 John
1822 May 12 Robert
1828 Mar 29 George
1836 Oct 16 Anna Maria.
Elizabeth must have been quite a woman to have children over 30 years I bet Anna Maria was quite a surprise :o :o :o
I went as far as 1846 but none of the other children in the 1851 census were there. ??? So who were their parents ???
Where did the rest of James children go, and where did the ones in 1851 come from ??? ??? ???
At least you know now Elizabeth was an Evans,
There were a few more baptisms I took note of, if you want I`ll send them privately , they may fit in somwhere.
I really didn`t mind doing this, I have Taylors in Coedpoeth and found some of them while looking, so it wasn`t a chore.
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Hello again
Well, I wasn't expecting all that, brilliant. And thank you very much. The others you have well yes I would love to see as they might fit in somewhere. I am really glad to see Maria at last! She was baptised on my birthday - well I'm not really that old but you know what I mean! So I now know that my other contact and I are really related, I was thinking that maybe we weren't as the difference between the first and last was so great. Yet I know that Maria herself had 10 children who survived to adulthood over 22 years, and her daughter Elizabeth my Gt Grandma worked in her village as an informal midwife to all the mothers there who couldn't afford the doctor. Obvioulsy she had a lot of practical experience. Well off to spread the good news.
Thanks again
Lidgett
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Elizabeth in 1851 was indeed living in her own home.
In the tithe map for Abenbury Fawr dated 1838 the Plan No 249 is entered as Landowner - James Taylor, Occupiers, Himself.
Name and description of Land and Premises , Cottage and Garden.
State of cultivation, Garden.
Quantities in Statute Measure. A -, R 3, P 3,
R - Rood, is a 1/4 of an acre, 1210 sq yards.
P - Pole, is 30 1/4 sq yards.
James did have his own place then after all. :)
If I have worked that out correctly , it seems that it was just under an acre.
Open to any corrections. ;D ;D ;D
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I`ve been looking for the baptism of James.
Gresford - nothing
Marchiwel - nothing
Holt - nothing
Isycoed - nothing
Wrexham - 1790 Nov 30, born 6th.
James Taylor son of Edward and Margaret, abode Ye Pidgeon.
When James married Elizabeth it was in Wrexham Dec 31 1806 and he was OTP. Could this be him, and was he only 16 ??
WE KNOW NOW THIS IS NOT OUR JAMES ,
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Hello again
yes I guess it could be, since I now know, thanks to you, that he was alive in 1843 I have looked for likely deaths, it narrows it down to only 2 so I was going to send for a death cert I think I shall have to ask the local reg office as opposed to the gro and hope Elizabeth reg the death to sort them out. The local office is/has been quite helpful in the past. That will hopefully help sort it out.
Thanks
Lidgett
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The tithe map was dated 1838, not 1843 as I first thought , so that opens it up a bit, but at least there will be a record.
Also found in Pigots 1828/9 directory .
Margaret Taylor, Three Pigeons, Hope St Wrexham.
PIGOT & CO. DIRECTORY 2. Midland 1835 North Wales section
TAYLOR, Margaret, THREE PIGEONS, Hope st (taverns and public houses)
Looks like Edward has died.
From WCBC site, the Town Walk comes this =
Hope Street
Walk along Hope Street. The Welsh name Stryd yr Hôb dates from the origins of the town when it was the road leading out to Hope. Pass by the building site that was WHSmiths. In 1699 the Three Pigeons Hotel was built on this site and in the 1840s it became the Lion Hotel. When a Russian cannon captured in the Crimean War was brought to Wrexham in 1857, the celebrations were held at the Lion. It seems it was a popular drinking den for the town's many soldiers. Another unlikely visitor was Guiseppe Garibaldi, the Italian Revolutionary, who had friends at Marchwiel Hall.
Also there are deeds at Denbs Records Office for the Three Pigeons dated 1770
and 1863.
WE KNOW NOW THESE ARE NOT JAMES PARENTS, BUT STILL A BIT OF GOOD LOCAL KNOWLEDGE
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Hello
I just noticed my email isn't working now! I checked back here on the off chance and found your new message. I think things are really falling apart pc wise, but they seem to be coming together fh wise. Even with the amended date it still only leaves the 2 James deaths so I shall send for the cert as soon as I can get to the post office!
Thanks again
L
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We now know James died on June 1 1849 aged 75 years and twelve days.
Wrexham PRs
1774 June 4 baptism of James Taylor s/o William ( occ taylor ) Abenbury Fawr.
James was born on May 13 th and presumably his father William was also a tailor.
There is no entry of the mothers name ???
I found a marriage by licence of William Taylor and Sarah Pulford , b and sp otp in 1762 ( forgot to record date ) this is the only one for a William.
Also more baptisms with a William as the father.
1767 Mar 18 (b Feb 14 ) William s/o William ( Mr) yeoman. Abenbury.
1768 July 1 ( b Apr 30) Elizabeth d/o William ( Mr) Coedaben.
1770 Feb 3 (b Dec 30) Susanna d/o William (Mr) Coedaben.
So - are William and Sarah the parents of James, and are the other children his siblings. Yeoman usually means that the person was a landowner , also the title gent , could James have inherited it from William., James was a landowner in 1838 ( tithe map)
WE NOW KNOW THIS WILLIAM AND SARAH ARE NOT THE CORRECT PARENTS, BUT SEEM TO BE RELATED SOMETIME FURTHER BACK .
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I looked at some books on the Wrexham area and found a few refs to Taylors.
Palmers History of Wrexham.
The Lamb, a building in High St was owned by William Taylor, gent. Almost certainly Mr W Taylor , Coed Aben, Abenbury who died 1784, he was the brother of Robert Taylor.
Encyclopedia of Wrexham
Coed Aben. An important farm in the township of Abenbury Fawr.148 acres. For most of the 18th and 19th century it was tenanted by a family named Taylor.
Going back as far as 1645 there is mention of an Edward Taylor of Pickhill. who was possibly a Parliamentarian.
If any one has more info then please add to this.
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Well I don't know how to thank you for all this work it has been wonderful to make the breakthrough after all the years of looking. William certainly seems right, William and Sarah are 'family names'. The family doesn't seem to have moved about much and that is a bonus. What a Christmas present. Thanks again and please have a good break. You've earned it.
Your next post has just arrived, can't keep up with you! I was just going to review the book you sent a copy of earlier, but haven't ywet had chance. Does Lamb sound like a pub?? Lots to keep me busy. Thanks again
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I have to say I am as puzzled as you are by these apparent Twins,Martha and Margaret Taylor and the non appearance in the same Quarter and Year in the GRO Birth Index.Martha Taylor appears in the October Quarter of 1844,and there are two Margaret Taylors in the October Quarter of 1845.
Coming back to the `twins`
Dec 13 1843 Margaret and Martha were both baptised at St Giles Wrexham
daughters of Mary Taylor, no father named. They are in seperate entries .
In Isycoed Marriages 1863 Apr 11.
John Taylor 24 b Red Wither, father Edward Griffiths
Ann Mottersham 22 sp Isycoed. father Sam Mottisher (Mottershead ? )
Isycoed Baptisms
1863 June 7 Mary d/o John and Ann Taylor. Isycoed.
1865 Feb 25 Ermine ?? “
1867 May 19 Joseph "
This John Taylor is the correct age for John with Elizabeth in 1851. As John was born before the `twins`, and Mary Taylor marries Edward Griffiths in 1852 at St Giles Wrexham, it looks like Edward Griffiths could be also the father of Margaret and Martha. :)
Before you all point out that the baptisms of the twins seem to be before the possible birth index entries, :D I can`t find then in 1843 so will re-check again when I`m in the Museum.. ;)
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I am hoping someone sees this. I just got to this part of my Genealogy. I am descended from this Taylor family. I was wondering what you all had on James Taylor and Elizabeth Evans or their parents.
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Hi,
Which of James and Elizabeth's children are you descended from? I am from his daughter (Anna) Maria who married Richard Thomas and lived in Alford Cheshire til her death in 1915. I do have lots of info on James and Elizabeth but sadly nothing concrete on Elizabeth's parentage.
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I am from her brother George. He married Rachel Parker. They lived in Birkenhead Cheshire. He died in 1891. Their daughter Kate Taylor married James Radley in 1881 and one of their granddaughters was my grandmother.
I haven't found anything on Elizabeth either. The census records give 2 places she could have been born. I think James Taylor's dad was a William Taylor. A tailor from Abenbury Fawr. But I can't find anything solid on the mother or siblings or grandparents etc. Do you have anything on James' side?
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Hi , I have private messaged you, hope to hear back from you soon.