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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Gloucestershire => Topic started by: Sprout on Saturday 24 November 07 12:47 GMT (UK)
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I’ve managed to trace my grandfather’s line back to George Gough, born Minsterworth, Glouc. 1815. By 1861 he is still in Minsterworth and the landlord of the Ship Inn, but google tells me there is no such pub in town…..has it sailed away?
Help appreciated.
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hi sprout
can see him 0n the 1871 census listed as publican,
with wife sarah
no mention of ship inn
perhaps the information in not on google
we have a ship inn near us and the last time i
went there i got wrecked ;D
ev
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1861 census says Ship Inn...or ship something....I'm sinking fast....
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sprout
join the crew ;)
google ship inn gloucester
there a few entries come up but not many many entries
come up for just ministerworth
i'm not familiar with the area so i don't know if theres any matches
on the 1881 census he is a farm labourer
ev
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Hi Sprout
Hoping to bail you out!
I think it might be the pub that is now known as the Severn Bore.
The census shows the Ship Inn is near a place called Naight House, which still exists - postcode GL2 8JJ.
Here it is on a map:
click here (http://www.multimap.com/maps/?hloc=GB|GL2%208JJ)
Now compare with the Severn Bore, postcode GL52 8JX
Not far away?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/028z/
What do you think?
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Thanks Arranroots....problem solved I think...now I can up-anchor and look for a sunset.
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If you have access to the census, it is often a good idea to search a few pages either side of your family for "landmarks" that might still be there.
I am sure the present owners of the pub would know a little of its history - perhaps a phone call or a visit to said hostelry would be beneficial?
kind regards, Arranroots :D
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I think a visit....it's a tough life this ancestry game - could I get a research grant?
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Yes, I should think the council would keep you afloat!
;D ;D
Let us know how you get on...
;)
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Until about 10 years ago the Severn Bore pub was called The Bird in Hand.
Was closed for a while this year now open under new management.
A good place to look for information and history on Gloucestershire pubs, when it's up and running again, http://www.easywell.co.uk/pubs/
Susan ;)
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Hi Susan
I don't suppose you remember what it was called in the census?? ;D ;D
Sorry to mislead you Sprout - must have been another one in the vicinity I guess.
Susan and I could do a spot of detective work around the local bars ...
(I did notice a Ship in Newnham, but that is a wee bit further away than you would like)
Any other ideas Susan?
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Have been looking at a history of Minsterworth - The Bird in Hand was in being as early as 1831 and the licensees are recorded from 1856. There is Mermaid Cottage at the Naight once thought to have been a river side inn.
Will do some more digging; all this talk of pubs and me being tea total :-\ :D
Susan
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Thanks for the help you two......Susan have a lemonade on me. Meantime I've dropped anchor and gone fishing.....
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Cheers Sprout ;D
Have been looking at later census (1881-1901) for any clues as to which house could be the Ship Inn where George Gough was in 1861. I'm pretty confident it's one of the cottages at the Naight, an area near the river, so conceivably this could be Mermaid Cottage, to confuse things this was formerly called Memorial Cottage!
Naight House is named on the census, 1901 the parish clerk Wintour Stephens is in residence RG13/2418 folio 41 page 4, he was parish clerk from 1883-1908.
In 1871, 1881 and 1891 Naight House was the home of Richard Clifford Stephens.
There are several cottages either side, in 1881 in address all it says is N.K., very helpful :-\ (RG11/2525 folio 115 page 9).
1891 there are three cottages enumerated as The Naight and two Naight Cottage (RG12/2007 folio 91 page 9).
Not much further forward but I believe in the right area of Minsterworth to be your Ship Inn.
Regards
Susan
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Appreciate your work....make it a lemonade AND packet of crisps.
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There is another pub in Minsterworth now called The Apple Tree, address aptly Watery Lane GL1 8JQ, but it's not as close to the river as the Severn Bore.
The district is famous for its apples, see
http://www.orchard-group.uklinux.net/glos/apples/index.php
Unless your Ship Inn is no longer an inn, I would go for the Severn Bore, where you can sit sipping your cider and watching surfers fall over on the Big Wave.
Cheers,
Gillg
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Hi
As mentioned in earlier post the Severn Bore is out of the equation as it was formerly The Bird in Hand from c 1831, also falls within the boundary of Westbury on Severn parish. The Apple Tree didn't become an inn until the early 1900s, both of these pubs are on the main A48 road.
According to 1861 census the Ship Inn was in the area of the Naight, a part of Minsterworth village off the main road down towards the Church and The Street, a very pretty area near to the river Severn.
I still believe the best option is Mermaid Cottage at the Naight, which, according to locals, was formerly a river-side inn.
Sprout is going to have a good time viewing these places ;D
Regards
Susan :)
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I think you're proabably right Susan but I have one further explanation: Having just 'google-mapped' the area, there seems to be a carpark (probably for the church) two cottages to the left (west?) of Naight House. The Ship Inn was also two cottages away from Naight House on the 1861 census. Ergo whatsit....the Ship Inn was where the carpark is now!
What do you think Miss Marple? I could send you a concrete drill - the anchor might still be underneath?
Sprout.
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A concrete drill??
Is that anything like a chocolate teapot??
??? ;D :D
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Arranroots ;D ;D
Sprout - think I'll have to put my Miss Marple hat on and investigate further, see what you've done got me intrigued now ::)
Mermaid cottage is reputed to be the oldest in the village.
Haven't been down that way to the river for a while so another visit is long overdue!
Regards
Susan :)
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Arranroots....I knew I'd get 'picked up' re. concrete drill, I'd ask what its proper name is but guess that's a new thread.
Wish I could join you Susan but have to go and brush up on my road-building vocabulary.....a photo would be lovely! ( Not of you, the area....I could swap it for a very fine snap of a headstone in Dunster Churchyard?....with a robin perched on it....)
Once again, appreciate your help
Sprout
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sprout
following the tale of ship inn with interest
would it be a "masons drill"
looks like a normal drill but the cutting blades are welded on to the
fluted shaft
the cutting blades would be heat treated and very hard but cheaper
than making the whole drill like this
i notice all the smileys now have santa hats and its still november
hope you find your anchor :)
ev
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ev
wouldn't there be an apostraphe in "masons drill"?
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hi sprout
no but an "apostrophe" maybe should be there
perhaps there was a young apprentice who took care of the
mason's drill
rodger the cabin boy ?
ev ;)
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Oo-er Matron.
Ev, you must understand this is a forum for deep and serious debate not....Carry on up the Family Tree....
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Sprout
You are not going to like this - I passed through Minsterworth today, but was unable to stop, as I was a passenger in the car of someone who was rushing to work. >:(
It's a long, rambling village along the A48, but I did notice that there were only 3 streets on the river side of the road - Pound St, Church St and Broadway Lane, all narrow lanes. So I passed the top of the lane where the Ship Inn must once have been (assume it was Church Street from what has been said earlier), but never got a chance to inspect that car park ::)
You might like to order Terry Moore Scott's "A History of Minsterworth" from your local library. http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~cotswold/minst.htm for more information.
Gillg
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hi sprout
hope you find your ship inn :)
put me down as a cheeky monkey
didn't sailors have them instead of parrots ?
and they are good at climbing trees
yours
saucy sally(sorry ev :-[ :-[ :-[)
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Perhaps next time gillg. (Once you've passed church on right, carpark should be immediately on left.) Thanks for tip on book.
Ev, I think you should go to your crow's nest and think about what you've done.
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Hi Sprout
Good news is believe have found your Ship Inn alias Poolend House, the bad news it’s derelict! Why I think they are one and the same this is the address the Goughs were living according to 1881/1891/1901 census and is also where the Ship Inn would have been according to 1861/1871 census.
Daughter and I took a walk round Minsterworth village today trying to follow in the footsteps of census enumerator, looks like a different route was taken for each census but whichever way you go leads back to Poolend House, situated at the Naight.
We met an old boy of the village who hadn’t heard of the Ship Inn but had recollections of Poolend, he said this was once a well known cider making cottage but now was difficult to get to over the fields down on the river bank. We did find the cottage only the lower half now standing. Have taken some photos and will post in the common room (can’t attach on this board). Couldn’t get a very good one of the front – danger of slipping into the river, me that is not the cottage, didn’t fancy a ducking! Along from Poolend (approx quarter mile) is the Naight House and Mermaid Cottage
When we got back home found an old map c 1920s and low and behold it shows Poolend House (copy posted in common room).
In the Gloucestershire Militia survey of 1522 for Minsterworth
William Gowgh 20s (goods) bow & arrows (arms)
Robert Gowgh
How certain are you that the christening of Joseph Gough 1797 is yours? I note on one census he states birth as Rodley which is just down the river from Minsterworth within Westbury on Severn parish, may be worth a look at that area.
Didn’t need the “concrete drill” after all!
Regards
Susan :)
Photos here http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,271815.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,271814.0.html
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Fascinating stuff! Thankyou so much yet again Susan….Ive always felt as if I have cider in the blood ( I fall over a lot) Just my luck it’s derelict….guess I owe your daughter a lemonade now.
I went to common room but wasn’t sure where to look….is Poolend east or west of Church? Maybe I could google- map it.
Looks like the Goughs have been around Minsterworth a while!
Let me explain my reasoning re. Joseph:
Using FamilySearch.org (IGI) I’ve found the following information:
Joseph Gough (b:1812 – Minsterworth, Glouc.) Parents Joseph Gough and Esther.
George Gough (b:1815 – Minsterworth, Glouc.) Parents Joseph Gough and Esther.
William Gough (b:1817 – Minsterworth, Glouc.) Parents Joseph Gough and Esther.
I thought it was fairly safe to presume they’re the same family.
The only possible, nearby birth for Joseph senior would be 1797 in Maisemore, Glouc.(IGI) but this would mean he was 15 when he had Joseph junior.
This seemed unlikely but I have since found them on the 1841 census,(Westbury on Severn, Glouc., see below.) and Joseph+Esther are indeed living with another Joseph just 15 ish years younger than his (probably) father. (Esther is almost 10 years older than her husband! William and George are accounted for elsewhere. )
I was aware that Joseph(b:1797) was in Rodley, Westbury on Severn by 1841, but presumed he moved there in later life.(i.e went Maisemore – Minsterworth – Rodley) The situation is further confused by son George saying he was born in Minsterworth in every census except 1871, when he suddenly wants to be born in Rodley! I’d presumed he’d found an old barrel of cider.
Why do you ask Miss Marple?.....what’s going on in that cunning mind of yours?
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Sprout
You must click on Susan's link to see the photo - it's very atmospheric. So glad she managed much better than me and actually saw the place.
When Gloucester Record Office re-opens after Christmas I can take a look at Minsterworth records for you. Looks as though there are BTs from1575 and registers from 1633. Looks like there will be plenty of Goughs to be found. I can also try Maisemore (quite a step away) and Westbury registers for a possible marriage.
Gillg
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Hi S
click on these links for photos and map in the Common Room - Lighter side.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,271815.0.html
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,271814.0.html
Poolend is east of the church but doesn't appear on modern maps.
Why I was querying Joseph 1797 from Maisemore was because his age when he married would have been 13!! There was a large contingent of Goughs in Westbury on Severn at that time.
I presume you have the maiden name of George's wife Sarah (Artus). There is a web site with the Artus family tree also includes George and children.
We had daughter's dogs with us yesterday unfortunately the cattle took exception so we had to get over the stile very quickly - sight to behold ::) When the fields are a bit drier will have another look at the cottage and take some photos of the inside, would have been a two up two down - the old boy told us the cider press was still there somewhere - can you lay claim to this as heir ;D
Regards
Susan :)
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Sssh! The whole of Gloucester will be traipsing the fields to grab my Cider Press... I bequeath it to you on condition I get a tenth of the produce every Christmas Day!
Yes...bit of a problem with our Joseph...just matured early? I'll keep working on that.
Great photos they neatly sum up my 'roots' (another line- Griffiths- were human scarecrows!)...if you ever need 'field-work' doing in East Devon or West somerset...let me know.
The reason I say google-map is it has a satellite option and you can zoom in on areas to incredible detail....p.s. you need to bring your washing in.
Sprout
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Have looked at satellite image on http:maps.live.com/ putting in postcode GL2 8JJ, Poolend House should be approx qtr. mile east on edge of riverbank, apple orchard to rear but can't see it :o ???
Susan :)
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Never easy is it....thanks again and thanks to you to gillg. Let me know if you find anything..
Sprout
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Sprout
I shall probably need a reminder after the Christmas hullaballoo, please :D
Gillg
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Hi Gill
Might join you at RO after Christmas :D
Regards
Susan :)
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Susan
That would be good. Everything is being re-organised just now, so it will be a case of starting afresh, just when I'd got the hang of things. The staff are always helpful, though.
Regards,
Gill
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I think I've found my Joseph....born 1782 Minsterworth.(IGI)
This means Esther wasn't quite the cradle -snatcher she appeared.
Joseph appears in the 1851 census in Cheltenham...complete with son Joseph of correct age(b;1813) ( Esther seems to have 'gone on')One of them was born in MUSLERWORTH and one in MUTTERWORTH!!!......are these transcribers ever sober?
This ties in nicely with the memoirs of Joseph's other son William, who mentioned his parents moving to Cheltenham.
And here's the spooky bit....
Joseph (b:1812) is married to a Mary! They have two lodgers, A.Shepherd and A.King......and Cheltenham is almost an anagram of...well take off the c and n....add a b!.....I knew I was special.
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Hi Sprout
All we need now is the other two Kings and Oh Little Town of ...........;D :D
I did spot Joseph in Cheltenham but thought I would let you have a look for yourself. ;)
Regards
Susan
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Ahead of me again Miss Marple......first one back to Noah wins!
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I was interested in your messages as I'm related to Joseph Gough senior via his son Joseph.
The information I have is that Joseph senior was born 4/8/1782 in Minsterworth with his father being (yes you guessed it) Joseph and mother Ann. I've information coming down the line but that is as far as I've got going up.
Sarah
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Hi Sarah
Good to hear from a fellow Gough! I'm presuming you're of the Joseph - b 1812 married Mary- line? I always presumed they were childless! Would love to have any info from your Joseph down.
In return, I can give you loads on your Jo's bothers - William and George, if you're interested.
Regarding 'up' the line, I have Jo(b1782) married to Hester (Phelps) and,as you say, the son of another Jo(b1740) married to Ann (Butler) There it goes cold, although Jo(b1707 - Ashleworth) is a possibility.
I think there's a way to send more 'personal' messages - e-mail addresses etc. but can't think how at the moment.
PS This isn't a cunning plan to lay claim to my Cider Press is it?
Sprout
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Hi Sprout
Yes I am related to the Jo 1812.
This is the line so far:
Joseph (b 1812) married Mary Hewinson (b 1821),
their son is Robert Gough (b 1853 in Cheltenham) married Eliza Day Saunders (b 1853 in Swindon, Wilts)
their daughter is Clara Alice Gough (b 1878 in Swindon) married Charles Frederick Beamish (b 1871 in Paddington, London)
their son is Herbert Frederick Beamish (b 1912 in Chippenham, Wilts) my grandfather.
Thanks for the information going up the line that is really help.
Cheers
Sarah
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Sorry it's helpful not help, I sound illiterate, I may need some help after all !
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I think there's a way to send more 'personal' messages - e-mail addresses etc. but can't think how at the moment.
Sprout
Hi Sprout ;D
Click on the green personal message thingy (don't know what it's called :-\) if you're on line it's lit up, under your name below profile piccy or where it says copyright national archives
Another option, click on the name of the person you want to contact, their profile page opens, towards the bottom is the option to "send this RootsChatter a personal message".
Hello Sarah welcome to RootsChat, which is very addictive as no doubt you will find out ;D
If you need any help just ask.
Regards
Susan :)
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Hi Sprout
In the Gloucestershire Militia survey of 1522 for Minsterworth
William Gowgh 20s (goods) bow & arrows (arms)
Robert Gowgh
Susan :)
Sarah I see you have a Robert wonder if this is a family name, as there is a Robert Gowgh in Minsterworth 1522! (Mentioned in reply 28).
Susan :)
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You never know, they do like to carry the first name down the line.
Sarah
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Hi Sprout,
I ended up here through a certain Liz who had info from Sarah about you Gough research, all of us being in some way connected to the Goughs.
I descend from a Caroline Gough (c 1822-1886, who married a John Weir in Cheltenham in 1850. They went off to live in Welshpool, Montgomeryshire in Wales, where they are recorded on the 1851 census. A daughter of theirs married a Henry Carpenter and this family moved to Shrewsbury, where their granddaughter, my mother, was born.
Anyway, the point is, you said in an earlier post that Esther Gough appers to have "gone off" somewhere in the 1851 census. Actually, she is staying with, and presumably helping, the pregnant Caroline Gough in Welshpool. I've attached an image of the census return.
The reason I assume Caroline is another daughter of Joseph and Esther Gough is mainly because Caroline gives her father's name on the marriage certificate as Joseph Gough, Farmer. I've attached this certificate, too. One of the witnesses is a William Gough. Also Esther's age, on the Welshpool census return corresponds with that of your Esther. What do you think?
Could you answer a couple of questions, please?
Firstly, why do you say Esther's maiden name was Phelps? I hadn't been able to find anything on the IGI (and I live in Sardinia so I can't go bombing around Gloucestershire looking for parish records).
Secondly, please tell me about the memoirs you mention for William Gough. They sound fascinating.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards,
Chris Pain
Moderator comment: images removed
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Hi Chris
Interesting stuff...the facts certainly fit the theory as far as they go. (For a moment I thought William would have left England before he could have witnessed Caroline's wedding but no, he sailed for America in August 1850-a month after the wedding)
It's just a shame we can find no info regarding Caroline's birth.
Regarding Esther/Hester's surname, there is a very lovely lady called Susan who just finds out these things! I quote:
(Completed Look-ups)
Keziahemm
Re: Look up - Maisemore/Minsterworth - Gough
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 01 December 07 16:57 GMT (UK) »
Hi Sprout
Joseph Gough of Minsterworth
and Hester Phelps married at Rudford 22nd May 1810 by licence
Susan
She may even be able to 'sniff out' stuff on Caroline Gough if we ask her nicely.
Regarding William, it's lengthy so I'll send it as a personal message.
Relatives in Sardinia...how lovely!
Sprout
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Here is a baptism :)
Caroline Gough - 28th January 1823 at St Lawrence, Barnwood
Parents - Joseph & Esther of Barnwood
Occupation - Farmer
Sue
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That was quick...thankyou Sue.
Chris, this may be a different set of Jo and Esthers to the Minsterworth couple?
Sprout
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Yes, you're right that was quick. Thank you from me too Sue. And thank you Sprout for all the stuff on the Rev. William Gough. I especially liked the ballad. Do you know if it's been set to music? If not, I might do it one of these days (another hobby of mine).
Sorry to the Copywright-Editor. I didn't realise you couldn't post images of certificates or census returns here. In future I'll do as you say and post a small relevant portion or send them privately.
Well, "Caroline Gough - 28th January 1823 at St Lawrence, Barnwood" is almost certainly the right baptism for my Caroline. I forgot to mention that in the 1881 census she gives her birthplace as "Gloucestershire, Barnwood". As you say, Sprout, this may mean her parents "Joseph & Esther of Barnwood" are a different set of Jo and Esthers to the Minsterworth couple, but not necessarily.
There are no Goughs in Barnwood in the 1841 , 1851 or 1861 censuses and no Gough births or marriages in Barnwood parish indexed on the IGI, so it seems these Gough were not a Barnwood family. They may have been living and working in this area on the western outskirts of Gloucester as they were later to be doing in Rodley, and later still in Cheltenham. The American material about William did mention that he had attended school in the city of Gloucester.
The only other couple of Joseph and Esther Goughs I can find any mention of are based in Thornbury and they had their children there between 1803 and 1809.
Anyway, I'd better start making lunch. That's my job around here. Doesn't it take the biscuit? Italians are supposed to be these fabulous cooks but in my house it's not my Italian wife but me, a Londoner, that gets to do all the cooking. I'll have another look at all the evidence later on.
Regards,
Chris
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I agree Chris, the evidence is promising in that Jo+Est don't appear in two places at the same time! (and share a William) I write songs too! Surely genetical evidence that we are related.
Biscuits for lunch?
Sprout.
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No biscuits, I can't make them. I can only make things involving large quantities of garlic or chili or both. Today it was Petza Imbinada, Sardinian for "soused meat".
What sort of music do you play? We're basically a group of old codgers (myself being the oldest codger at nearly 49) who spend a couple of evenings a week together playing a bit of blues, a bit of soul and a bit of rock, anything from Van Morrison to Stevie Wonder.
Chris
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This is astonishing...I love chili, garlic and VanMorrison too! Further genetic evidence! (We have to relate these conversations back to genealogy otherwise Arranroots will get us for being off-subject) Have played in various bands but got tired of all the travelling and carrying heavy speakers about, just bluesey piano in a few pubs these days...
Any suggestions for a good Sardinian wine? Ancestor hunting certainly works up a thirst....
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I didn't realise we had to stay on-subject. Well, I'll try. So for people with genes such as ours, the best Sardinian wine is Cannonau, anything over 13%. This is a strong red-black wine, more ore less the wine equivalent of Guinness. As regards actual bottles I'd recommend Nepente from Oliena or Orturù from Mamoiada, also Mamuthone from Mamoiada but that's quite expensive. Don't know if any of these reach England.
Chris
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Hello both
Technically, yes - please try to stay on topic.
Privately I am getting an education about Sardinia and am intrigued by the idea that you share musical genes!
You can either chat privately by Personal Message, use the chatroom (RootsChat Chatterbox - see the Chat link at the top of each page) or start a topic on the Totally off Topic board.
Enjoy!
Kind regards, Arranroots ;)
p.s. I assume you have come across Scribes Alcove for your Thornbury records?
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Sorry Arranroots, will try to stay on topic in future.
Could you tell me more about these Scribes Alcoves?
Regards,
worldsender
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Hi,
Here is the link for Scribes Alcove :)
http://www.scribes-alcove.co.uk/
Sue
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Thanks Sue!
worldsender
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My pleasure :D
Sue
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hey Sue....how come when I thanked you earlier I didn't get a "my pleasure"?
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You don't got cute baby toes
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So sorry Sprout, my pleasure :-* ;D
Sue
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Sprout, I was reading the Ballad of the Circuit Rider again and I wanted to find the site it came from, but when I pasted the first line into Google it didn't find anything. Do you think you could post a link to the site you got the ballad from.
It looks to me as if it originally had music, baove all because of that three line verse which looks like a bridge:
The winter's snow, or summer's heat,
Or the flood of raging stream,
Could never deter a patriot's theme....
All the best,
Worldsender
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Thankyou Sue
Chris (prehensile more like!) I can't remember where ballad came from...but suspect it was via Ancestry.co.uk where I found an American Tree that had it in the 'notes' bit on Rev.Will. (Tried to contact that member but no reply...now the whole tree seems to have disappeared) Just looked again and one link that came up was "Butler and Bremer Counties, Iowa History" but couldn't follow the link because I haven't coughed up the necessary cash!
Yep....looks like a bridge to me too.
Sue, no need to say "my pleasure" for the above "thankyou"...we'd be on a loop.
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Hi Sprout
You're wandering off topic again, Arranroots will be on the case ::)
Haven't had chance to go back over the fields to Minsterworth to look for the cider press, waiting for the weather to cheer up!
Susan :)
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Hi Susan
I keep meaning to get up there myself...if you find the press, slap a "sprout" label on it will you - I suspect this Sardinian 'pretender' is after it.
I do try to stay on-topic.... it's Twinkle Toes Chris who wants to talk about bridges. We know what Arranroots'll say -a bridge too far!
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Good job I'm not very good at being grumpy!!
::) ;D
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quick everyone.....scarper!