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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: mary45 on Wednesday 21 November 07 13:21 GMT (UK)
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I recently checked the IGI records on a family name of
Vallaney/Vallany. I was surprised to see a new entry with
entirely different christian names & an new variation of the surname ?
Birth 1887 (no date)
Christening 26 Feb 1889 at St. Marys ,Clayton Street, Newcastle upon Tyne.
Parents : Caroli ? should be Charles
Maria ? should be Mary
Surname : Vanelly 0r Vallaney ?
Unfortunatly there is still no more information on the birth date ?
I checked the 1901 census for a Caroli & Maria Vanelly but found nothing.
Any comments would be welcome.
mary45
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Carolus (in latin) == Charles (in English)
Pauline
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Hello, Maria in Latin is transcibed as Mary......Pat
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Thankyou Pauline & Pat for your comments.
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I,m wondering why latin names were used...is this normal ??
In this case the couple were the " adoptive" parents of Ethel Vallaney.
Which I don't believe knowing their circumstances of poverty.
Regards
Mary45
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Hello mary45, I am trying to assist you with this family, but need additional information: have you found the family in 1901 census yet? perhaps the best way to determine Ethel's parents is to find her birth in on of the birth indexes and order her civil birth certificate. A good one for the 1887 time frame is<www.freeBMD.org> and you should try BOTH spellings of her surname. Let me know how that goes for you. Also, her parents (guardians?) should be in 1901 census as Charles and Mary... Some churches used Latin names in their parish records until quite recently...do you know if the family was Church of England or Roman Catholic? Let me know if I can help any further. Pat
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Hello again, Further searching seems to indicate that your Ethel was baptised in a Roman Catholic Church and in that time they would have most cerainly used Latin in their parish registers. I cannot find her birth listed under the spelling in the IGI.....However,a promising entry in the freeBMD is for an Ethel VENNELL born in Bradford,W. district (5a130) -- also, it is noted that there do not appear to be any Vennell births recorded in Northumberland. It appears that Ethel's family moved "up North." That might also account for the fact that she was born in 1887 and not baptized until 1889.... Your thoughts? Pat
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Hi Pat !
Thankyou for your help & Information.
Ethel Vallaney according to her baptismal record was 2 yrs old in Febuary 1889.
(born in 1887)
Her adopted parents married in October of the same year 1887.
The marriage & Christening took place at the same catholic church.
This couple did not have any own natural children. ???
Her adopted father Charles Vallaney died age 32 in 1891.
Her mother re married in 1894 to James O, Connor.
I cannot find Ethel Vallaney //Vallany in the 1891 or 1901 census ??
??? Mary45
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Hello mary45, I cannot find any spelling of Ethel's surname except VENNELL. I don't have access to ancestry, but I am hoping you might find her with that spelling. Let me know how that turns out for you...if Ethel is not in those two censuses with that spelling, perhaps she simply took over the O'Conner name??? When she married, what name did she use?? Pat
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There's an Ethel 'Vanneby' on the 1901 Census.
1 Thames Street West, Wallsend listed as a servant to John Wilson. She's aged 16 and says was born in Newcastle, but if she had been living there all her life and the head filled out the form, then it could be her.
If you can look at the page on ancestry, it could be Vanneley with the l & e running into each other to look like a 'b'.
The source citation is Class: RG13; Piece: 4795; Folio: 24; Page: 39
Cheers
Tracy
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Opps ignore that last post, got the 'l's and n's mixed up. Will take another look.
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Hi Pat
I don't know what name she used. Wish I knew more !
By her maiden name she was a Gallagher and her family
were part of the Tyneside Irish I guess.
I,ll have to keep digging !
Thanks so much for your help !
Mary45
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Hi Tracy !
This seems to be an interesting lead !!
I,ll check it out and I,ll get back if there is a link.
Thanks ever so much !!!
Cheers back :-)
Mary45
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Mary45,
(have you quried this before ? )
As you can see from my profile I "do" Gallaghers in Northumberland and Co Durham (from c1820s onwards) !
The St Mary's church on Clayton St (West) was/is the second RC church in Newcastle. (St Andrew's was the first)
It became a cathedral in 1850 (for the Diocese of Hexham and Newcastle)
It would have been very unusual for a newly-born RC child not to have been baptised very quickly after birth.
A two year gap ?. Maybe later baptism was a religion change?
Michael Dixon
Newcastle
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Mary
Thought I'd add my penny's worth to your searching.
There is an Ethel Venney to parents Charles H and Mary Venney born circa 1886 born and living in Yorkshire in the 1891 census. Wonder if this is of any use to you.
J.A.
P.S - my family are Roman Catholic and my mother and aunts' and uncles' baptisms in the 1930's are recorded in Latin as are the marriages and my grandfather's burial record. He was James and my grandmother was Ellen - they are variously recorded as Jacob and Helen. Ethel may be a variant of Elizabeth.
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Thankyou Northern Girl !
The Charles Vallaney/Vallany/Vanneby/Vanelly
would not have been in the 1891 cenus since he died just shortly
before the 1891 census was taken.
But thanks anyway for your effort :-)
Mary45
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Hello Michael
Yes I have been down this road before on Gallaghers & Vallaney/Vallany/Vannely/Vanneby :-)
I became interested again when I checked the Free BMD and saw the entry
in a "new form" with latin names, and a new variation on the surname.
You are maybe right about the religion change. I have never thought about that.
Its interesting that Mary(Gallagher) and Charles got married circa 9 months after
Ethel was born. ? She was baptised 27 Febuary 1889.I have a copy of the record.
It says she is the adopted daughter of the above couple.
Charles was a soldier and spent time abroad, came home with a lung desease
and died age 32yrs.
I doubt I will ever find out the truth of who gave birth to Ethel Vallaney.
But it is strange that she was baptised 2 yrs after her birth at St, Marys.
Mary45
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Northerngirl,
Was your James really baptised as exactly "Jacob" ?
And Ellen as exactly "Helen" ?
Mary45,
You say you saw a "new form" in Latin on FreeBMD. Where on FreeBMD (which is CIVIL registration) are these Latin forms ?
Adoption !. Adoption did not become formal/legal or whatever until 1900s. Does Ethel's baptism record in 1889 really record that she was adopted ?
Michael Dixon
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Hi Michael
You are correct I was wrong. It was IGI FamilySearch.org
and not BMD.
Now to the Certificate of Baptism it shows as follows :
On the ...........day of .........1887 was born Ethel Vallaney and on the 26 day“of Febraury 1889 was baptized ...above name adopted (handwritten) daughter
of Charles and Mary Vallaney by Rev M Forster.
Godfather was Thomas Harrison
Godmother was Mary Vanally ?? ( difficult to read)
When Ethel Vallaney (married name Watson) wrote to St. Marys Cathedral in Newcastle in 1946 applying for a copy of her certificate of Baptism the reply
she recieved said "You will see there is no date of birth given, only the year 1887. You will see from the certificate that Mr. & Mrs Vallaney adopted you when you were about 2 yrs old. So At birth you would be registered under another name, that is why you cannot get it. God bless you, and best wishes. Canon E. Wilkinson.
Mary45
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Is it likely that Ethel was born to unmarried mum Mary-before she then married Charles 9 months later. The only 'adoption' that took place would then have been for Charles to adopt her as his and give her his surname?
Just a thought ;D
Carol
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Mary - sorry to hijack your posting.
Hi Michael - I don't know if my grandparents were baptized in their Latin name (I can't find any baptism certificates at present) but their marriage certificate gives their names as Jacob and Helen. Their witness - Martin is Martinus. The local priest in Gortmellia, Mayo was an ardent Latin enthuesiast and so the names were latinised. My grandmother in particular was born as Eleanor - got Ellen in the censuses, at home, on her passport and on her death certificate - was variously referred to as Ellen, Nelly etc but never Helen
I was recently looking at my grandfather's burial entry in 1960 and that too is latin though I can't recall if he was James or Jacob.
I was born a week after his death and my mother was advised by the priest to give me my name which now that I investigate it is the anglised version of Jacob!!!
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Northerngirl,
I see that the priest in County Mayo was an "ardent Latin enthusiast"
In RC churches in England, it did not matter whether the priests were Latin enthusiasts or not..... the baptism, marriage and death registers were already part pre-printed in Latin .... and priests just filled in the gaps for names and dates in Latin....
I particularly liked "Dionysus".... priests best effort for parents wanting their child baptised "Dennis"
Jacobus= James
Joannes= John
Joanna= Jane or Joan
Micaelis
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Hi Carol
I,ve had those thoughts too...
Maybe Ethel was Mary's daughter. Since Mary came
from a RC family it must have been awkward for an umarrried mother ,and so maybe
she was never registered at birth. If she had been registered in Newcastle
Upon Tyne in 1887 she would have her mothers surname Gallagher.
Its a brick wall.
I,ll probably come back again later and repeat my request !
Regards
mary45
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It has also crossed my mind she “(Ethel) may have come from one of
Mary Gallagher's family members in Ireland.
Mary45
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Mary
I know it used to be tradition for the oldest child to stay with grandparents or aunts and uncles many years ago. Perhaps as others have suggested - Ethel was Mary's and she was left in Ireland until Mary got more established. I know that when my grandparents emigrated to England in the early 1920's their first born was left behind and only moved to England when he was 10 years of age. I can vaguely remember him as he used to speak gaelic.
J.A.
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Hi J.A
Mary was born in Newcastle upon Tyne in 1865 her father
Michael Gallagher was certainly from Ireland.
I,m told Ethel could remember visiting relatives for short periods in Ireland when she was small.
This maybe explains why I can not find her on the 1891 -1901 census ???
She got married when she was 21.
Thanks again for your input :)
Mary45
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I saw Ethel's baptism record today ( at least film of it from St Mary's RC Church, Newcastle)
The surname was written as VANELLY on the original record, but the name VALLANEY had been pencilled onto the record. At what stage, it is impossible to say. !
In normal baptism records the priest would have written
"Ethel filia Caroli et Maria" for "daughter of Charles and Mary" but this time he wrote "Ethel adoptera Caroli et Maria", confirming what Ethel herself later discovered.
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The godfather ( patrinus fuit) and godmother (matrina fuit) were Thomas Harrison and Mary Mary Vanelly.
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Incidentally I could not see the record of the marriage of Charles and Mary in 1887 in St Mary's records ( nor in St Andrew's or St Dominic's, other RC churches nearby )
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When Ethel herself married, what maiden name did she use ?
Michael Dixon
Newcastle
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Dear Michael !
Thankyou very much for the information you have sent
Its the nearest & dearest Information I have recieved
for a long time.
I have a copy of the marriage certificate for Charles & Mary.
They were married in October 1887 at St. Marys Catholic Church
in the district of Newcastle Upon Tyne.
"according to the rites and ceromonies of the roman catholics"
Charles "Valleny" and Mary Gallagher.
When Ethel got married in 1904 she used the name Vallaney.
She was living in Ryhope Sunderland then.
Ethel signed the marriage certificate herself and used the name Vallaney.
I ,m so glad that you could supply me with the correct name of the witness as being Mary Vanelly . ?? who was she I wonder , maybe she was also a Vallaney ?
There were 4 people involved in Ethel's baptism , yet no one apparently knew the day or month of her birth only 1887.
Mary VALLANEY remarried in 1894 at St. Patricks Chapel Gateshead
to James O ,Connor.
Your information was interesting. Thankyou !
Mary45
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Mary44,
I have deducted one point from your score of 45, for missing the maybe obvious answer to your question of who Ethel's godmother/sponsor was !
Do you have the date in October for the V/Gallagher marriage in October 1887 @ St Mary's ?
I am also interested in "St Patrick's Chapel, Gateshead". I am wondering if it was RC. There was a St Patrick's RC Church in Felling, which lay just south of Gateshead !
Just a wee thought here.... with all this RC and Latin flying about... The name "Ethel" strikes me in two ways.... priest did not latinise it... and there is no Saint Ethel ( in my youth, b1941, RC priests in my area would refuse to baptise anyone with a non-saint name ??
Michael
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Michael (your deduction was right)
Charles & Mary were married on the 22 October 1887.
in the presence of; A Patrick & Maria Cullen.
The chapel was , The Felling at Heworth district of Gateshead.
on the 31 March 1894. They were both widower/widow living at
11 Providence Place Felling..
Could this be the Mary Vanelly/vallany who was present at the wedding 1887 ?
I,ve often thought the name Ethel was odd too.
Charles Vallaney was also RC baptised at St. Marys in Consett.
He served as a private in the Durham Light Infantry according to his army records.
He lived at the barracks at the time of his marriage. Mary Gallagher lived at 41 Mosley Street.
the same address as her witness Maria Cullen.
In keeping with the tradition I was baptised at St. Marys Church in 1945.
I agree with you Michael. There is no Saint Ethel ?
Mary44-45
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Hello Mary45
So to recap...
1859 Charles baptised St Marys Consett (who were his parents? could we try and find them in the censuses to get a handle on the surname)
1865 Mary Gallagher born Newcastle upon Tyne, father Michael, probably from Ireland (where did the Ireland bit come in? who was her mother? have you found them in any census records?)
1887 Ethel born
22 October 1887 Mary Gallagher marries Charles Valleny, witnesses A Patrick & Maria Cullen (living at 41 Mosley Street with Mary G.)
26 February 1889 Ethel 'Valleney' baptised St Marys Clayton Street Newcastle, adoptive daughter of Charles & Mary 'Valleney'. Valleney also written in register as 'Vanelly'. Godparents were Thomas Harrison & Mary Vanelly
1891 Charles dies aged 32
31 March 1894 Mary 'Vallaney' marries James O'Connor at Heworth Gateshead, both living at 11 Providence Place Felling
1901 Census possible sighting of Ethel
1904 Ethel 'Vallaney' marries
Have you found any Gallaghers or Vanelly/Valleney on any census record? I did look for any Charles born in Durham between about 1859 but the nearest I could come up with was a Varley, who was happily married and still alive in 1891.
I have also found a Mary Ann Valleny on freeBMD born Sept 1858 Durham 10a 222, with her possible sighting in Heworth in 1861 (Valleby), father Patrick, mother Catherine in Heworth.
All good stuff.... Any more names would be great to narrow them down.
Tracy
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Mary, you mention Charles was baptised St Mary's Blackhill, do you have the record. A few years ago I did a look up for a Vellanny (various spellings) in that parish and it may be the same family but Charles was absent.
If you look at 13 William St, Consett in 1881 Patrick Vallerly is a widower aged 46 with a son Patrick aged 22 and a daughter Catherine aged 16, also brothers Neil aged 30 and James 25 all are stated to be born Armagh.
Going back 10 years (1871) to the same William Street where Patrick Vellany is a widow aged 41, born Ireland with his son Patrick aged 13 and Mary aged 12 both born Scotland. Catherine is not at at home but there is a Catherine Valley aged 6 born Glasgow, visitor, close by at Nile Street. Charles might have also been visiting elsewhere if he belonged to this family, whilst Mary aged 12 in 1871 may have been Ethel's godmother in 1889.
Good luck
J.T.A.
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Thankyou Tracy & Jt for your replies and information :)
I value them both !
I,ll be back soon !
Mary45
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Charles Vallaney enlisted in the army at Shotley Hall
8th Feb 1875 he was 18yrs old.
Birthplace Blackhill Consett Durham.
5ft 11 inches blue eyes & fair hair. Roman Catholic
Enlisted Sunderland Barracks 27th March 1876
"Military History Sheet"
COUNTRY FROM TO
home 27 mar 1876 3rd oct 1876
India 4 th oct 1876 9 mar 1882
home 10 mars 1882 11 may 1885
Egypt 12 may 1885 20 dec 1886
home 21 dec 1886 15 dec 1890
Arrival Embarkation: Cairo 5th Dec 1886
Colchester 11 Jan 1887
Newcastle Upon Tyne 4 Feb 1887
admitted to hospital: 2 feb 1889--14 feb 1889
23 july 1890 --23 aug 1890
2 oct 1890-- 18 oct 1890-
York. 18 Oct 1890 recommended for discharge.
Charles Vallaney died 10th March 1891 at 74 Walker Road Walker.
present at death was "Maggie Gallagher , sister in law.Living at 14 Caledonia Street Walker.
The census for that year took place on 5/6 April 1891.
I do think Charles father was Patrick Vellany of William Street.
Mary Vellany may well have been godmother !!
Mary45 ps All of Charles army records spell the name Vallaney. Charles signed his name with a X.
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Mary, you earlier mentioned Charles' baptism at St Mary's, Blackhill, do you have details of the entry which will include both his parents names; I think Patrick's wife was called Jane. A Jane Vallaley aged 36 wife of Patrick died at Consett and was buried in Blackhill Cemetery 10th March 1871 just missing the census.
The name Vallelly is very common in Co Armagh and I think that was the correct name. If Charles was in fact born Blackhill circa 1858 there is an inconsistency with the other three of Patrick's children who were all born Scotland vis: Patrick circa 1857, Mary circa 1858 and Catherine circa 1864, nor do the family appear to be in the district in 1861 which makes Scotland a possibility, so that needs tidying up.
Patrick Jr. adopted (or reverted to) the name Vallelly, he married Catherine Kane in November 1881 and their descendants are still in Consett today. I think Catherine Vallelly married James Agnew in 1882 but I don't know what become of Mary who may not have married.
Poor Patrick Snr's mind must have failed him in old age, he died at Sedgefield Asylem aged 68 but was brought all the way back for burial at Blackhill Cemetery 24th February 1908.
The above is from notes I took for a lady years ago who I think lived in Wales.
J.T.A.
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Hi JTA
Thankyou for your reply !
The information I have on Charles V is from Army Records which I ordered from England.
(I live in Sweden)
It could be that Charles did not quite give his correct date of birth when he registered himself
for army service ?
On his marriage certificate in 1887 his father's name is Patrick Valleny (deceased) Lab.
Mary Gallaghers father Michael was also deceased in 1887 ?
It says in his army record he was born in the parish of Blackhill in or near the town of Consett in the
County of Durham. Would it be possible for me to obtain a birth certificate with the details I have ?
Where would I apply for it ?
Its all very interesting reading with the information you have sent me about the Vallelys in Consett.
I,m certain they are the relations of Charles.(I'd like to think so)
Maybe these Vallelys living in Consett today have a family history tree ?
Mary45
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Hello Mary,
Assuming Charles gave his correct age, he would have been in his 19th year when he first enlisted in February 1875 which means he could have been born as early as 1856 making it possible he was an older brother of Patrick, Mary and Catherine; however, if this was the case he could not have been baptised at St Mary's, Blackhill as those records only commence some time in 1857 when the church was founded. Prior to that Catholics from Consett and Blackhill were baptised at Brooms near Leadgate.
Do Charles' army records give his next of kin when he enlisted? I doubt if you would get a birth certificate based on your current information and the chances are that his birth would not have been registered, also there is a strong possibility he was born in Scotland if he did belong to the William Street family.
It's a head banger but I think you'll get there.
J.T.A.
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Mary,
Terry mentioned possible root of Charles in Scotland.......
His death was registered (between 1st Jan-31 Mar) 1891 within Tynemouth Registration District (age at death 33 yrs)
C1891 taken fairly soon after, shows an absence of related folk from their addresses at the time of his death...
14 Caledonia Street ( 4231-81-44 Longbenton District 3)Bradley family... no Gallaghers !
74 (-78) Walker Road (4231-8-10 & 4231-9-11 Longbenton District 1) shows several families.. no Valleney (or variations)
or Gallagher.
Elsewhere in this Walker district of Longbenton parish is a
Maggie Gallagher, 33 yr old wife of Patrick, living at 3-4 Tyne St ( 4231-31-55). This Maggie is recorded as born in Scotland. On C1901 ( 4806-59-11) she is Margaret, 43, born Kirkcudbright, Scotland.
I wonder what her maiden name was !
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Have you got Newcastle baptism record of Mary, dtr of Michael Gallagher ?
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Michael Dixon
Newcastle
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Michael & JTA
Thankyou for your replies.
I,ll check through your information & ideas.
Mary45
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Mary,
I've managed to make contact with the lady who is related to the the Vallely family of Consett. Will send you a personal message.
J.T.A.
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This new angle with the Vallaney variation Vanelly/Vallelly
has been constantly in my thoughts and giving me new hope
of finding information about my grandmother & her birth parents.
JTA Thankyou so much.
Thankyou too Tracy for doing the "recap" and Michael Dixon for the Gallagher link !
Angela
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Mary,
Terry mentioned possible root of Charles in Scotland.......
His death was registered (between 1st Jan-31 Mar) 1891 within Tynemouth Registration District (age at death 33 yrs)
C1891 taken fairly soon after, shows an absence of related folk from their addresses at the time of his death...
14 Caledonia Street ( 4231-81-44 Longbenton District 3)Bradley family... no Gallaghers !
74 (-78) Walker Road (4231-8-10 & 4231-9-11 Longbenton District 1) shows several families.. no Valleney (or variations)
or Gallagher.
Elsewhere in this Walker district of Longbenton parish is a
Maggie Gallagher, 33 yr old wife of Patrick, living at 3-4 Tyne St ( 4231-31-55). This Maggie is recorded as born in Scotland. On C1901 ( 4806-59-11) she is Margaret, 43, born Kirkcudbright, Scotland.
I wonder what her maiden name was !
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Have you got Newcastle baptism record of Mary, dtr of Michael Gallagher ?
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Michael Dixon
Newcastle
Hi Michael !
Its strange that on Charles V death certificate it states "Maggie G "as living at 14 Caledonia Street Walker.,
on the 10th March 1891 ,yet circa 3 weeks later she is not there when the census were taken.
I have also checked the 1891 census for Vallaney at 74 Walker Road , like you I found other surnames in the building but no Vallaney. ? I wonder where Mary & little Ethel were as I have been unable to find them in any census ?
No I do not have Marys baptism record of Mary Gallagher (father Michael)
Do you think I could apply for it with just a name & birth year and her fathers christian name ?
I,d love to know more about them.
Another twist in this story I have discovered is when Ethel Vallaney married in 1904 at the register office i Sunderland her fathers name is written as "George" Vallaney (soldier).
Mary45
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Mary45,
Mary, wife of Charles V....
There are records that ..
give her maiden name (Gallagher) and..
her father's name (Michael Gallagher)
What are the records/indicators that point to her been born in Newcastle ?
Michael
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Michael
I don't have a 100% answer to that question.
Marys brother Patrick lived in Newcastle.
Mary was married there.
Michael was a coalminer and was,nt alive in 1887 .
Thats not much to go on I admit.
I,ve heard mention ...
Newcastle Upon Tyne & Felling when my mother
talked about her mothers Gallagher & Vallaney family history.
(the little there was)
Michael, Mary & Patrick Gallagher.
There must have been quite a few people with these names
at that time in Newcastle Upon Tyne // Felling :-\
Mary45