RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: Fear na mara on Wednesday 21 November 07 01:07 GMT (UK)
-
My Scots grandfather, John William Elliot was born in Nagasaki, 1870. His father, John Elliot was a Master Mariner, who died in Swatow(China) Hospital, Oct, 30th 1872. Exactly one year earlier to the day, John William’s mother, Eliza Ann (neé Baverstock) had died in Shanghai.
I now have a very full account of Eliza’s family. National Maritime Museum, Lloyd’s Registers and the logs of the barque Rifle, have yielded every move of the ship from the week after John’s wedding at St.Mary , Newington, up to and beyond John’s death. I have a very full tree for the family who owned John’s ship
John gave his DOB for his Certificate examinations as 20th March 1834, Annan. On his marriage certificate his father’s name is given as John Elliot, Cabinet Maker. Despite hours combing Scotland’s People – not to say many pounds spent – I cannot find any trace of John Elliot’s family. Would any of the experienced genealogists be able to offer a few words of advice on how I should proceed
-
HI There,
Just a quick look I found this family......(I know this little John..is 10yrs old but it is a possiblity..and the father is JOhn and a Joiner....which can be a cabinetmaker)
Also Halfmorton is 10.2 miles from Annan..
1841 census
Halfmorton
County: Dumfriesshire
Address: Holm Head
Parish Number: 828
John Elliot 40 Joiner
Margret Elliot 40
Jannet Elliot 15
Andrew Elliot 14
John ElliotJunr. 10
Joseph Elliot 6
1851 Census
Homehead, Half Morton, Dumfrees
Margaret Elliot 53yrs, born Cummertrees, Dumfrees.
Joseph Elliot 16yrs, born Half Morton.
This is interesting.....Margaret is living with her daughter-in-law...Ann ...who is married to a sailor...I wonder which one of Margarets sons was a Mariner?
1861 Census
13 Cumberland Terrace Annan.
Margaret Elliot 63 Joiners Widow, born Cummertrees, Dumfriesshire
Ann Elliot, 28yrs, Daughter-in-law, Mariner (mercht Serv) Wife born Annan.
There is a Margaret Elliot or Glover who died in Annan, 1867
JOhn Elliot married Margaret Glover.
these are their children.. {you will notice that John was born 30 march not 20 march and the year was 1831 not 1834}....I hope this is your family....but there will have to be a lot more investigation..}
HELEN ELLIOTT -
Gender: Female Birth: 26 MAY 1820
HELEN ELLIOTT -
Gender: Female Christening: 16 JUL 1820
ISABELLA ELLIOTT
Gender: Female Birth: 10 AUG 1822
ISABELLA ELLIOTT -
Gender: Female Christening: 18 DEC 1822
JANET ELLIOTT -
Gender: Female Birth: 05 JUN 1824
JANET ELLIOTT -
Gender: Female Christening: 14 DEC 1824
ANDREW ELLIOTT -
Gender: Male Birth: 01 MAR 1826
ANDREW ELLIOT -
Gender: Male Birth: 01 MAR 1827
JOHN ELLIOT -
Gender: Male Birth: 30 MAR 1831
JOSEPH ELLIOTT -
Gender: Male Birth: 13 JUL 1834
JOSEPH ELLIOTT -
Gender: Male Christening: 10 DEC 1834
All born Half Morton, Dumfries, Scotland
Just as a matter of interest...Janet Elliot married James Jeffery 1848.....in Annan..
regards,
JO[/color]
-
It's him. You have found them. Hang on, I need to read this again - but must go down to the vet first (to give me something for the excitement) and something for the dog's arthritis. Back very soon
-
What a great job you have done Kenjo– experience counts. I have produced most of my data on the luck the beginner. You have found my great-grandfather – and his first wife and his family. I was concerned about the length of my first post so omitted some detail.
The London marriage certificate of 1869 gives John as WIDOWER. I had chased a poor ghost around Liverpool, but the marriage cert showed it was the wrong John Elliot. So your discovery is right on the nail. His mother, Margaret was living with his wife.
I had tried births between 1833 and 1838 on the assumption that apprentices, like soldiers, would offer themselves for service under-age, so I added four years to 1838, but did not imagine that he would have played his age down. But I should have done because on one set of Rifle logs he sets out with his usual age of 39 but ten months later lists his age as 42. (Date and place of birth were used as part of the Lloyd’s Register identity, along with, license number and place of issue.)
Now I see he had surviving siblings – Janet marrying a Jeffrey in Annan, shortly before John takes up his apprenticeship with Capt.Robert Ewart of the brig Lawson (out of Annan) in Sept. 1849.
I must now follow up all of these clues – where to start! I think I need to get a death for his first wife to ensure that everything remains respectable. Then try to follow up his sister Janet and brothers Andrew and Joseph.
I am so grateful to you.
The note at the bottom of your post gives a link to a website but the link is broken. Can you let me have a live URL.
-
Oh I am glad you see the possibilities....work to do though.
If I may make a suggestion though....
Please buy the Death of Margaret in 1867...first.....then the informant will be a clue, hopefully as to who was still around in Annan....
I fear that the families have moved away....I am not even sure if Ann and John Married in Scotland or England and not sure if she died In Scotland....this could be quite hard from here on...
There could be emigrations (other family members) as well but to where...?
The link to my site will work soon according to Trystan.( RC wonder worker...THE MAN).
Don't forget to tell us here on this thread, how you go with the death certificate....Please...We all want to know..
regards,
Jo
-
Have bought Margaret's death cert - quite the worst it of text yet. From what I can make out - and it is really very faint.
Widow of John Elliot, Joiner, 18th March - [ 4 lines of illeg], female, aged 70, Fathe, John Glover, Farmer, [ one line illeg] Helen Glover [ two lines illeg]. paratyphoid [three lines illeg]
McG???? Medical Attendant.Jannet Elliot present (this is the clearest text), 1867, April 7th,
[illegible signature] Acting Registrar.
her son, John, the mariner, was Captain of the Regent at the time and was on a voyage to West Indies, then down the coast of south America and off to the East Indies. He hardly paused for breath at the end of tha voyage before he took the rifle to Japan for the first time.
This lad was no supporter of the 35 hour working time Directive.
-
Good Work....
I wonder who jannet is?
You can ask Scotlandspeople for a new copy.....( they will send you an A5 size copy of the oroginal for free, by post)....
Go to Scotlandspeople ......logon....at the bottom of the page there is a link to Contact us...
click this...
At the bottom of the blue part ...click..."Continue here to fill out the contact us form"
then click on the third from the bottom..."Illegible image".....and give them all the details you can read....
I am trying to find anyone from the family....not having any luck....
Do you think that the informant Jannet Elliot...was her daughter? (even though she should be Jeffery)...or a daughter-in- Law.....is there a clue as to her relationship to Margaret?
Jo
-
OK...I have found 2 girls who could be Margarets daughter....
1861Census
Isabella Elliot born about 1825, servant at Annan Manse, born Half Morton..
also..
Janet Elliot.born about 1827, servant at Long Meadow House, Annan, born...Kalfmorldie, Dumfrieshire ...( this should be Half Morton)...
I wonder if this is your Janet......and she has gone back to her maiden name...
Jo
-
Yes it says Jannet Elliot daughter present.
-
I love how you are enlightening us of the voyage that John was on....I am enjoying it.
I think I have found Andrew Elliot...
1851 Census.
Milgillfoot, Westerkirk, Dumfries.
24yrs, servant, Carpenter (journeyman), born Half Morton...
I couldn't find him in Dumfries in the 1861c..
also 1851c There is Isabella Elliot 27yrs, servant, at Port St, The Manse, Annan... born Halfmerton...
So Isabella was there working for years...
JO
I will add that I don't know who put the Marriage of Janet and James Jeffery...on the IGI...even though it does make sense...re John leaving for a voyage at the same time 1848....from Annan...
why has she gone back to her maiden name....? I never found any children from this union...maybe James Died soon after marriage...
-
After you forwarded on the Death certificate to me....
I found this..
Margaret Glover.
Born, 13 Jul, 1794..Cummertrees, Dumfries, Scotland (so she was 5 yrs older than she implied)
father John Glover ,...mother...Helen Batcliffe.....(Helen or Hellen Babcliffe or Radcliffe or Ratcliffe )
This is the Batch no:C118172 put this in the batch....box with British isles in the region section...and John Glover in the father section..and you will find all his children...sometimes it is best not to put the mothers surname in when doing a general search '''as it may not pick up all the spellings.
regards,
JO
-
PART I
Thanks to Jo’s research and guidance, I now have John’s immediate family and the families of both lots of grandparents. The next target is to get a view of the family network around John and more important, what network would have been there for his son, John William
Remember John and his wife were dead when their son was just two years old. I have evidence of his care at a couple of points in his life with his Aunt Georgina and Uncle William: this couple were childless and lived in some comfort. William Durham was a silk merchant who threw in with Jays and opened the Mourning Warehouse in Regent Street, employing over two hundred staff in the Regent Street premises and many more as outworkers. Jays led the way in provision of the most exacting standards of mourning attire, jewellery, accessories and could discreetly arrange for cremation. John William’s maternal grandfather (and Aunt Georgina’s father) was an export merchant, living at a very expensive address in Southwark: there is a whiff that not all his dealings were entirely legal, but they were certainly profitable – and they lived up to 1880. Georgina and William could certainly afford to feed an extra mouth. Besides – our John was making very serious money as a Captain in Far Eastern waters. Masters with Foreign Trade Certificates were not cheap and John had trained with James Gales, who had been commended by the royal society for his work in meteorology. The ship Rifle did not lose a day from its schedule for the birth of the Captain’s son, nor for the death of his wife: time was/is money. Young John William would not have returned from the Far East with just his cot and blankets.
But money is not everything so had he turned to Scotland what family might have welcomed him.
Using Jo’s batch technique I went back for John senior’s family
at Half Morton, Dumfries, Scotland Batch No. 7426817
The Grandparents - James Elliot + Isabella Broatch
Their children,
2 sons; JOHN (24/07/1799) and ROBERT (18/09/1807)
4 daughters; JANNET (01/08/1801), MARGARET (03/08/1803)
MARY (09/06/1806) SARAH (11/03/1821)
I am assuming that John (1799) is my John’s father.
Surviving daughters likely to marry and thus difficult to trace – leave for now.
What is the extent of Elliots in Half Morton, could there be room for confusion with first names ?
Check all Elliots in Half Morton on 1841 Census.
Scotland’s People gives me 14.
First, the family you put together for me
John (1799) occup Joiner
Margaret (1793, neé Glover)
Daughters Sons
Helen (1820), Andrew, (01/03/1827)
Isabela ( 1822), John (30/03/1831)
Jannet (14/12/1824) Joseph (13/07/1834)
N.B. Helen and Isabella not listed with John and Margret.
Other Elliots in Half Morton 1841
Cadgillside (?), HALF MORTON/DUMFRIES 828/00 002/00 003
GEORGE M 30 born in county occup – Cloger ??
ISABELA F 25 do.
Mary F 4 do.
ROBERT M 25 do. wood-cutter
Thomas Craig M 18 do. wood-cutter
Cadgil HALF MORTON/DUMFRIES 828/00 003/00 001
JAMES M 65 do. GLAZIER
JAMES M 20 do. GLAZIER
JANNET F 20 do.
Isabella F 1 do.
MARY F 30 HALF MORTON/DUMFRIES 828/00 003/00 011
JOHN M 19 HALF MORTON/DUMFRIES 828/00 004/00 003
PART II to follow
-
PART II
Follow-up Margaret, my John’s mother, at Cummertrees
Widowed at Half Morton by the ’51 census and living with her son Jospeh.
10 years later, living in Annan at 13 Cumberland Terrace with daughter-in-law
Ann – my John’s first wife. Margret died of a long term paralysis on 30th march 1867 at Annan. (from Margret’s death cert)
Father, John Glover, farmer, born Cummertrees.
Mother, Helen Radcliff
Then IGI batch gives children of John Glover + Helen Babcliff (?)
Jane 4th-Apr 1773
Helen 16-Dec 1776
Catherine 23-Apr 1779
Jannet 03-Jul 1781
Mary 16th-Dec 1787
Margaret 13-Jul 1794
Margaret, as you noted, shaves her age – even when she was pegging out.
Perhaps not surprising that her son did the same – if not quite as brazenly.
Six sisters presents a bit of a challenge for research – due to the name changes.
John’s wife Ann.
I have found a death in 1862– but it is not very strong. ANN ELLIOT other name AITCHISON age “U” at Ewes/Dumfries.
Nothing further on Ann so far.
John’s sisters.
So far - Jo has found Isabella, a servant at the Manse, Port Street, Annan, in 1851 and again in 1861. I have a marriage 9/12/1867 between Isabella Elliot (dob 1821) and Andrew Irving (1813), thereafter living at Backlady Street, Annan, until Isabella’s death in 1899. That seems like many years of loyal service in the Manse brought to an end by a marriage of matures, he would have been, 54 and she, 46. They are certainly available at the critical time in young John William’s life, married five years before he was orphaned and living until he was 29, by which time John William had already exhibited at the Royal Academy and moved to Ireland where he was living a few doors away from James Joyce.
Jo also found a marriage, possibly for sister Jannet Elliot to James Jeffrey in 1848. But Jo also found Jannet Elliot, born about 1827, a servant at Long Meadow House, Annan, in 1861 census with a probable transcription error on birth place born Kalfmorldie, Dumfriesshire for Half Morton. We do have a competitor for the position that is James Elliot’s wife, Jannet, about the same age. I have tried for this James and the daughter Isabella in the 1861 census and got a nil return – so it is possible that this Jannet is now a widow and working as a servant at the House. This explanation would resolve Mrs Jannet Jeffrey – changing back to her maiden name, Elliot (and wanting to be called MS).
Robert, the wood cutter has dropped off the Half Morton census by 1851 and needs searching. George, the Cloger ( or whatever that is) has dropped off also. Indeed by 1851 there are just three Elliots left in Half Morton, including our Margaret and her son, my John’s young brother, Joseph.
Jo has led on most of this and it has been a great help to me, though time is really not on my side at present. Need to draw breath and be advised on next steps and advice on poor assumptions, bad moves or explantion of Clogers
E
-
I am reading this thread with great interest! Jo what a great job you have done - Grandad Harry would be proud!! :-* :-* :-* If/when I get some time, I will try to help out with the digging, too.
Fear na mara - I know (I think!) that "na mara" means "of the sea", but what does "Fear" mean (or is that in English?!)
Prue
-
Fear = man, plural = fir
You have the next bit - na mara = of the sea.
if you want "woman of the sea" = bean na mara.
I am so glad that you join me in applauding Jo's work on my family. Do you know that she had most of this sorted within six hours of my first post.
-
Hi E!
Lovely to hear from you, I know you are a very busy person....but you have found time for some digging....and once again, a story to boot....wonderfulll....love it.
If Prue gets time to investigate...you will be given great advice.....(lovely to see gorgeous Harry again, Prue) 8)
I have to go out soon, so can't do many excavations....at the mo;
but I notice that John and Margaret Elliot have possibly been using the Scottish naming pattern..
so...
Helen -----1st girl named after mother's mother
Isabella -----2nd girl named after father's mother
Andrew------1st boy named after (should be father's father)
John----------2nd boy named after mother's father...
If this is true....then John Elliot's father should be Andrew....
If this is the case you may need to try out of the parish of Half Morton...
I will have a quick look now...and see..
But it still could be what you have found...and there could be another reason why they named their first boy James...
speak soon,
by the way.....what did John jr exhibit?
Jo
-
Hi E!
No I haven't found an obvious match..between an Andrew and Isabella...so I think you may be right here but...this is danger territory...and there are gaps in a lot of parish records in the 1700s....so take the family you cleverly found but keep in mind that there could be another family..
I will look for an old Andrew in the 41 census..
sorry to put a dampener on it..
Jo
-
I wrote my reply and the wretched server threw me out. Apologies - I was just hearing the thud of hooves and the yips of the hounds and seeing you off again in hot pursuit of the weaving and ducking Elliots. And it seems that Prue may be taking a quick swig before she pulls on her hunting gear.
No apology needed for the strong amber light of warning. I have fallen often enough for the plausible name, age and birth-place. I am working on two fronts - trying to press ahead with the research and also working on a Powerpoint presentation for Thursday night - Mother's 98th and she knows nothing about her father's life after her fifth birthday and really not that much before.
-
Sorry, forget to answer the question. British Artists of the Royal Academy lists grandfather in 1898 - design for stained glass wall for Banqueting Hall - this was I think the Masonic Temple in Dublin. I paid a visit, though I am not a mason they were very decent and showed me the glass in their main building. Glass was very significant in Ireland at the turn of the last Century and the Dublin school eventually produced Evie Hone, doyen of an Túr Gloine - (Eton College Chapel - West window).
Grandmother won a scholarship to the Royal Hibernian Academy - that is where she met John William.
.
-
Major break through!! :D
Think I have found Ann !!!!
E.....!!!Will get back soon...
YES!!!
I thought that I would see if Ann died abroad..(Consular Deaths). first....only found one who died at Philippeville 3 96 sometime between 1860 -1865....this place turned out to be in Belgium....(unlikely being inland)..
anyway...I looked for an English marriage ...and found only a few between any John Elliot and an Ann...
found a very suitable one in Wirral 8a 638 dec q 1859.......
John Elliot and Ann Shannon....
and guess what ....they had 2 children in Annan....soooo I had to buy the certificate to see....and yes....we have a winner!!
Joseph Elliot born 15 Aug 1861....father John (seaman chief mate) and Ann Shennon
also Sarah Margaret Elliot born 26 Dec 1865, Annan...
1871 Census..
Lodge Wynd, Annan.
Andrew Irving 56yrs, House Propietor and Mason, born Annon.
Isabella Irving 48yrs, born Half Morton.
Ellen Elliot dau, 7yrs, scholar born England.
Joseph Elliot, boarder, 9yrs, scholar, born Annan..
(not sure if Ellen is Sarah Margaret Elliot.....probably not)
1881 Census..
Back Lady Street, Annan.
Isabella Irving 57yrs, born Half Morton.
Sarah M Elliott 15 yrs, Neice, born Annan.
and 1 boarder.
In the 1881c I think I have found Joseph Elliot 19yrs, nephew,(grocery shop man) born Scotland..
living in Cumberland with Grace Elliot, 50yrs..Widow..
Also in Cumberland is Joseph Elliot born Morton...Joiner...
I have to go now..
Jo[/color][/b]
-
Wow! I think that between the two of you the story is unfolding before our eyes. It just shows that an accurate direction can bring about a detailed and positive conclusion. Indeed, I am sure it's not the conclusion yet.
Well done Kenjo and Fear Na Mara.
Judy
-
Gee thanks Judy,
It is great fun ....isn't it...but it is the story that is the most interesting....this boy John made good, didn't he....and was able to pass his successful genes on ......and his own family were able to look after his first 2 children as well.....I can't wait for 'E' to read this.....It could take him a few days as I think he has gone away....
1881 Census
Low Keckle, Whitehaven, Cumberland.
Grace Elliot, Head, Widow, born Scotland...........(Widow of Andrew)
Mary Elliot, dau, Unm, 22yrs, Gen Ser, born Whitehaven.
William Elliot, son, 17yrs, Joiners App, born Low Keckle.
Joseph Elliot, son, 15yrs, Grocers App, born Low Keckle.
Andrew Elliot, son, 13yrs, Scholar, born Low Keckle.
Joseph Elliot, nephew, 19yrs, Grocery Shopman, born Scotland.
also
John Elliot, Head, Mar, 23yrs, Railway Guard, born Whitehaven.
Kate Elliot, wife, 23yrs, born London.
Florence, Elliot, dau, 1yr, Low Keckle.
1891 Census
Cleator Moor, Egremont, Cumberland.
85 Birks Rd,
Joseph Elliott, Head, Mar, 29yrs, Grocer,born Scotland.
Annie Elliott, Wife, 25yrs, born Whitehaven.
John Elliott, son, 3yrs, born Whitehaven.
Arron S Elliott, son, 1yr, born Whitehaven.
Arron Smith, visitor, Widower, 56yrs, Coalminer, born Whitehaven.
1901 Census
Egremont, Cumberland.
52 Dallzell St,
Joseph Elliot, Head, mar, 39yrs, Grocers Assistant, worker, born Scotland.
Ann Elliot, wife, 35yrs, Whitehaven.
John Elliot, son, 13yrs, Egremont.
Arron S Elliot, son, 11yrs, Cleator Moor.
Joseph Elliot, son, 9yrs, Cleator, Moor.
Florence Elliot, dau, 7yrs, Cleator Moor.
Annie M Elliot, dau, 3yrs, Egremont.
Mary L Elliot, dau, 8 mths, Egremont.
1871 Census
Egremont
Andrew Elliot, head, mar, 44yrs, Joiner, Scotland....(son of John Elliot and Margaret Glover)
Grace Elliot, wife, 42yrs,Scotland.
Margaret Elliot, dau, unm, 16yrs, Gen ser, Carlisle, Cumberland.
John Elliot, son, 14yrs, Railway Engine Cleaner, Whitehaven.
Mary Elliot, dau, 12yrs, scholar, Whitehaven.
Isabella Elliot, dau, 10yrs, scholar, Egremont.
William Elliot son, 7yrs, scholar, Egremont.
Joseph Elliot, son, 5yrs, Egremont.
Andrew Elliot, son, 3yrs, Egremont.
Elizabeth Elliot, dau, 5months, Egremont[/color]
Joseph Elliot son of john elliot and Margaret Glover is also down in Cumberland...will get to that another time...
regards,
JO
-
Nice work Jo...nothing for me to do but sit back and watch you bring it home! :D
:-* Prue and Harry x
-
Hey Prue your input is always welcome...and anyone else for that matter...
1901 Census
The Manse Port Street, Annan.
James A Crichton, 60yrs Minister of Annan Parish..born Perth.
Rachel L Geekie, sister
Sarah M Elliot servant, 35yrs, born Annan..
So this is a lovely story, of a boy with the sea in his heart..
It doesn't seem to be in the blood, for his brothers all took after their father and were Joiners.
Isabella grew up and found work at the Manse....for years and then..marrying Andrew Irving was able
to look after her brothers children..
Sarah Margaret also working at the Manse...having the best of recommendations from her Aunt.
Sarah Margaret's mother Ann Shennan married John Elliot and lived with his mother - Margaret...
I can picture her in 1861 waiting for the birth of Joseph and Margaret being great comfort while they wait for John's return......
This was a very ambitious man.{his family would have been very proud} .(for if any of us with sailors in our heritage.....they are called 'sailors')
But when Joseph was born his mother very proudly said ...Joseph's father was 'Seaman chief mate" knowing that he had Captain in his sights....she sadly was not to know the outcome of his years of determination and study..
Young Joseph was raised by Isabella his Aunt and then went to Whitehaven, Cumberland...to his other Aunt - Grace and Uncle Andrew .
He married Ann Smith Dec Q 1886 Whitehaven 10b 873...Ann presumably being the daughter of Arron Smith.
Sarah Margaret Elliot went on to marry Edward Elliot in 1903 ...Edward Elliot being the child of James Elliot and Janet McEwen.....both bride and groom being aged 37yrs....I don't know if Sarah had any children..but we do know Joseph did...
so 'fear na mara'......your very dear mother now has Joseph and Sarah Margaret as her Aunt and Uncle...and Joseph's children are her cousins...
I pray that you do get to know this for her birthday, and "E" I hope you find living relatives from this ..
below is a snippet of the Marriage certificate between Sarah Margaret Elliot and Edward Elliot 1903.....she stating that her father was ...in fact....a Sea Captain....as we all know..
lovely..
JO
-
Hi Kenjo
I can feel a novel coming on! The bare bones are there ready for an imaginative writer to add some detail, albeit historical and geographical descriptions. What I would have liked to have done in another life maybe.
I can't wait for the next instalment please.
Judy
-
I agree, that there should be another novel written,....."E" take note..
'E' mentioned that a 'Robert Elliott' wrote a novel about the return of John William Elliot ( as a wee babe) from China to London...
this was done in Ireland...in and around 1900.....
re: me.....
I am being haunted by Ann Scott Shennan......in my dreams....I feel so for her...
and I suppose 'E' and his family have felt so strongly for Captain John Elliot.
We now wait for
fear na mere..........'E'
Thankyou for your support......it does carry you on..
Jo
Modified....
I had a look at Wills Isabella Irving sister to the Sea Captain....has a Will of 5 pages..1899.
her husband Andrew has a Will 1872 3 pages....
also Joseph Elliot brother to the Sea Captain....has a Will...Index .stating died 11/1/1889 proved 16/2/1889
sometime residing at Moor Row Carnforth, Cumberland, afterwards in Annan died Annan...3 pages.
1871 Census..Moor Row Egremont, Cumberland.
Joseph Elliot, Head, Unm, Joiner. born Scotland.
1881 Census..
Moor Row, Egremont,
Joseph Elliot, Head, Mar, 46yrs, Joiner, Morton.
Ann Elliot, wife, 46yrs, Cumberland.
Children of Joseph Elliot (son of the Captain)....and Ann Smith.
all registered in Whitehaven, Cumberland.
John Elliot, Dec Q, 1887......10b 652
Aaron Smith Elliot, Dec Q, 1889.......10b 616
Joseph Elliot, Dec Q, 1891......10b 654
Florence Isabel Elliot, Sep Q, 1893......10b 693
Annie May Elliot, Sep Q 1897.......10b 695
Mary Lilian Elliot, Sep Q 1900.......10b 711
-
Continued ::
Very interesting......
I just looked for a Marriage for Jannet Elliot ( the Captains sister) after 1867..(when her mother died)....and found this....
Jannet Elliot married James Jeffrey, 4/8/1868, Annan....this is official...
so once again ....submissions are wrong ...if you remember I found a submitted entry of this very marriage but in 1848.....
1871 Census..
Southcoates, Kingston upon Hull, Yorkshire.
5 Emily St,
James Jeffrey, Head, Mar, 53yrs, Houseowner, born Scotland.
Jannet Jeffrey, wife, 47yrs, born Scotland..
Sadly Janet died...Sep Q 1871.....Gateshead..10a 576..
Just to make sure.....James was a widower in 1881c...
http://www.whalesrevenge.com/
Please help the Whales...click on the link and sign your name ..they need 1 Million names..
-
As Bill McLaren used to say:there was rejoicing in the valleys, when I displayed the results of Kenjo's research to my mother and the assembled clan. All the revelations came as a great surprise and there is great impatience for the next chapter of the story.
While I was away, Kenjo has been racing on digging up the ancestors with the speed of a JCB and now, instead of an early night after my travels, I am reading wills. Swathes of the work are confirmed by the text of Joseph's will though I am having some difficulty sorting out who is who. John Elliot (Mariner) married Ann ( Shannon), his brother Joseph Elliot married Ann (mcMillan) and John's son Joseph married Ann (Smith ?) Now I find Joseph talking about his "putative"son Andrew - I'm no too sure I like the sound of that. Interesting though to note that Joseph has shares in a ship - modest but he has them.
Back now to read Isabella's will - then bed before the dawn chorus.
-
Ah ...Fear na mara,
You have the Wills, that is great.....
we will wait and see what you wish to share with us now.....and if you need anymore help...
It has been wonderful, to contribute to this story...of yours.
take your time ..
JO ;)
-
The Wills and the Wedding
Isabella’s will was “proved” on 6th Oct 1899 following her death on 12th May of that year. This confirms that she is the widow of Andrew Irving, mason in Annan ( and brother of Cap’n John). That the Irvings lived at 7 BackLady Street, Annan but owned other cottages there.
She nominates the minister, Reverend James Alexander Crichton DD, as the executor of her will. Total amount of personal estate which is made up of income received from investments and trusts comes to £560 – but the assets; cottages and shares, remain in the Irving trust.
She leaves the entire residue, after Inland Revenue and proper expenses, to be divided between two of her nieces, Mrs Helen Elliot / Gardiner and Sarah Margaret Elliot.
Provision for the premature death of the beneficiaries indicates that there are other nieces and nephews who might have benefited but these two are the favoured pair. Jo was absolutely right about the bond between isabella and Margaret and the quality of the relationship with the Minister. So, it is not just the skill of tracking and extraction but the gift of sensing the life behind the data.
Sarah and Edward marriage
This wee snippet sent me diving back to my bad-hits file.
I thought I had found a John in this Elliot familiy in Annan. Wrong – but there is Sarah’s husband Edward from the clan of blacksmiths.
In 1841 census George Elliot, 50, Blacksmith and his wife Janet are living on Watch Hill, Annan, with children Thomas (20), James (15), George (10) and John (2)
I thought a two year old was a bit optimistic for a 50 year old.
In the same year Thomas Elliot, 55, Blacksmith was living at PORT Street ( remember this is the location of the Manse where Isabella, and later Sarah, would spend quite a time as servants. Thomas does not seem to have a wife but has children, Sarah, John, Helen, Thomas and Mary.
In the 1851 census, George, now 61,has moved to 36 North Street, Annan, given up Blacksmithing and become a Miller. His son, John, who was 2 years old in 1841 – has aged miraculously and is now 34. He is a farmer of 34 acres and a Miller, another son, William, aged 29 is also a Miller and little George, now aged 23, is an apprentice Miller. But son James, now 27 is a Master Blacksmith. The household is completed by two servants and a nephew, John Proudfoot, son of the Mason, who lived next door.
By 1881 census, the farming/Milling side have cleared out of the house in North Street, leaving son James, the master Blacksmith, now 57, and his wife Jannet, 47.(born Cummertrees). He is employing three of his sons as blacksmiths; Edward (14), James (26) and William (20)
The “baby” blacksmith, Edward, is the man who marries Sarah Margaret.
The two Eliot blacksmiths of the 1841 census came from Canonbie, where their father had been a blacksmith.
Back to a wee bit of hacking on Joseph's will
A bientot,
-
Hi E,
So pleased you have told us more ...
I wonder if Helen...Elliot / Gardiner....is John (the Captain) and Ann Shennan's child..
Remember in the 1871c...there was an Ellen, born England. living with Isabella and her husband.
There was a gap in births for Ann Shennan...so Ann may have visited England after having Joseph...and before having Sarah Margaret.
Anyway the only answer is to buy the Marriage of....David Gardiner and Helen Elliot...Annan. 1890.
For the Sea Captain has most likely another child...being Helen..
Another thing I have noticed ...is the apparent devotion to the women who raise the children.
These girls haven't been promiscuous.....yet married late...right after their mother died...and in Sarah Margaret's case...when her Aunt died.
Have the men they married ......waited in the wings for their sweethearts to finally agree to marriage.....Is this another clue to the love and respect these women had for their family..
Jo
I just thought I should look for the Gardiner Family in the 1901c.
7 Scott St, Annan.
David Gardiner, Head, 36yrs, Journeyman Tailor, born Ruthwell, Dumfries.
Helen Gardiner, 37yrs, England
John Elliot Gardiner, son, 9yrs, Annan
David Gardiner, son, 5yrs, Annan
It is looking good.....
Helen Gardiner ...or Elliot died 1925 Annan.
and
John Elliot Gardiner married Agnes Jane Wilson....1926...Annan..
-
Once again Jo’s sure intuition and forensic eye spots the clues and swoops on the next layer of the family. Helen’s marriage to David Gardiner pushes us forward but I notice that there is no detail of David Gardiner’s father on the marriage certificate.
But we have their son, aged 34, John Elliot Gardiner, grocer’s assistant and even his marriage in 1926 in the Erskine United Free Church of Scotland to fisherman’s daughter, Agnes Wilson, who has been a tailor’s machinist in Annan –The Gardiner, Tailor and Clothier business perhaps.
Joseph Elliot (Cap’n John’s brother) moved down to Egremont in Cumberland where he – late as usual- married Ann McMillan. And it was while at Moor Row that they prepared their wills.
Joseph died 11/01/1899 leaving the income from his investments to his wife and after her death to his sister Isabella. Jo’s feelings about Isabella are confirmed again here – as Joseph had a number of relatives to whom he might bequeath. We learn that he owns a couple of cottages in Annan and has been receiving rent – but his other investments are poor, his ship shares having declined in value and his “loan” looking like a forlorn hope, reduced to 2/6 in the £.
The surprise is that he leaves ½ his freeholds – in the fullness of time- to his “putative” son Andrew, who is a Clerk at Rowanburn Colliery, Canonbie. To my innocent mind putative son suggests one not listed in the regular family.
I looked at the 1901 census - 13 Watchhill, Canonbie
Elizabeth Scott, Head M 66 Gamekeeper's wife born Dum. Canonbie
Andrew Elliot, son, S, 44, Clerk at Colliery, born Dum. Canonbie
Now how do I interpret that ?
-
Hi Fear na mara,
This is a little tricky....{I must add I hadn't realised that that Elizabeth Scott ...said in the 1901c that she was a game keepers wife......untill I had posted this ....how dumb am I }
In the 1891 census. same address as the 1901c
Watchhill Canonbie...
Andrew Elliot, Head, 35yrs, Clerk, Canonbie.
Elizabeth Scott. mother, 55 yrs, Canonbie....
I looked for a birth of an Andrew...with Elizabeth Scott...as mother..
the only suitable ones were...an Andrew Scott born 21/7/1855 Stow Midlothan..with only the mother listed ....Betsy Scott.
the other one was
Andrew Scott 23/5/1857 Dryfesdale Dumfries...to a married couple....
The first one was a possible....sort of...{but dismiss}
anyway I looked up the
1861Census
Watchhill, Canonbie
Jane Armstrong, Head, 67yrs, Canonbie.
Mary Armstrong dau, 43yrs, Farm Labourer.
Andrew Elliot, grandson, 5yrs, Canonbie....
So with this info....Andrew Elliot's mother should be Elizabeth Armstrong..
and there is an
Andrew Armstrong born 22/1/1856 ..Canonbie...mother Elizabeth Armstrong.
so Andrew was illegitamate....but his mother told him who his father was and so took up his fathers name....and would have been financially supported...most likely.
Now this is where it does get tricky....and this is my interpretation...I could be wrong though.
Elizabeth Armstrong married Adam Scott.26/5/1865 Westerkirk....
(her father Andrew Armstrong and mother Janet Murry)...(this could be a submission).
This couple had 3 children.
Elizabeth Scott. 27/3/1866 Westerkirk.dumfries.
Gideon Scott. 11 /9 /1867, Westerkirk.
Adam Scott. 25/5/1870/ Moffat.
Adam Scott and Elizabeth are in Moffat..in the 1871c with Adam...
Gideon Scott 3yrs, is staying with his grandparents Gideon and Elizabeth Scott
at Crooks, Westerkirk..
Now back to Andrew Elliot..
In the
1871c
He is still at
Watchhill.
Mary Armstrong. Head, 53yrs, Ag lab. canonbie.
Andrew Elliot...nephew, 15yrs, scholar. canonbie..
1881c..
the family have moved to Deer Park House, Inveraray, Argyll.
Adam and Elizabeth Scott and Gideon and Adam..and 2 servants.
Back at Watchhill.
Mary Armstrong, Head, 64yrs, House keeper.
Andrew Elliot, nephew, Clerk at Collery,
Thomas Farish, boarder, 22yrs, draper, Half Morton.
Jamima Lorrain, niece, 11yrs, Caanonbie.
Elizabeth Scott returned to Watchhill. and is living with Andrew Elliot.
I wonder if Mary had recently passed...
Gideon Scott is still over at Argyll...I will have to look further for Adam Scott now that I realise he was still alive in the 1901c.
modified..
In the 1891c and 1901c Gideon Scott is still in Argyll...he is a Clerk for the Estate Factor and is married with children in the 1901c.
1891c
Adam Scott is visiting at Crooks farm ....where there are a lot of Armstrongs...
1901 C
Adam Scott is at William Park's home --his brother -in- law address Cruie....Eskdalemuir. Dumfries...
NB....in the 1861c Adam birth place has been transcribed as England...but it is Langholm...Dumfries.
So even though Adam Scott isn't with his wife in 2 census, it really doesn't mean anything negative...he could be just away both nights the Census was taken..
regards,
Jo
-
I have altered the previous post considerably..
-
This has been a fascinating thread . . . every bit as good as many of the Who do you think you are episodes.
I'm really impressed with the work Kenjo's done. Wish all brick walls could end like this!
-
There are many criminals sleeping happily in their beds safe in the knowledge that Jo is not heading up the criminal investigation service in OZ – well, perhaps you are. You have kept the pace up – never less than a canter – and I am left mesmerised at the sure footed denouement.
And you have made it as clear as crystal: we have two families in parallel. Andrew, the “putative” and bachelor, living with his Aunt Mary at Watchhill, Canonbie. Andrew’s birth mother and husband Adam Scott, move north up the Esk valley, beyond Adam’s birthplace of Langholm, and eventually end up in the Highlands. After 35 years, mother and son are back together in Canonbie.
From earlier, we have Joseph at home in Half Morton with his mother in ’51. He has his liaison with Elizabeth Armstrong before he is 20 and the baby, Andrew, is born in 1856. Six years later, he is recorded as a sawyer, while he is a lodger, unmarried, with McVanes, the grocers in Castle Douglas, a fair distance from Canonbie. By ’71 he has moved to England to join his brother, he is still unmarried and a joiner. His elder brother, Andrew has been in the Whitehaven area since 1855. It would be nice to think that Jo is right that he may have been supporting his child. By 1881, Joseph is married to Ann (McMillan) Elliot, his putative son now being 25 and earning his own living. At the same time, his nephew Joseph is living with the late Andrew’s family and is working as a grocer. The Elliot’s of the remote parish of Half Morton now have a much wider territory from the lake District up to Argyll.
There are few remaining loose ends – but one in particular will not lie down. Captain John took his first command, the Yuca, a one year old barque, built at Workington, just a few months before his son, Joseph was born. For four years he was both Captain and also consignee. His remuneration would not have been insignificant. His American voyages on the Empire Queen, beginning weeks after the birth of daughter, Helen and his final two and a half years in the China Seas would have provided a handsome income also. But there is no trace of a will. Did any of Joseph’s and Isabella’s money came from John ? Joseph was not an astute investor and even if the reference in the Trade Directory for Cumberland, “the principal landowners of the township [of Oughterside] are F.L.B.Dykes, Sir Wilfrid Lawson, Joseph Elliot and John James. “ refers to our Joseph, I cannot see Joseph the sawyer/joiner generating that kind of capital.
-
Hi Fear na mara and lesleyhannah,
I am glad you told us a bit more about your wonderful Sea Captain, and in the last reveal....that Ann did infact know her husband as a Sea Captain...
I wonder if Ann did pass away while on a trip with her husband..?
I was thinking that because the Will of John Elliot has not been found, yet.
You could go to Edinburgh and search the sasines.
.http://www.nas.gov.uk/guides/sasines.asp..
just to see info on when Joseph bought the houses in Annan.
This could give a clue as to when he came into money...
Also if anyone else has any suggestions about searching Annan solicitor records please chime in..
By searching the Sasines...it could tell you what came of the houses and the people you are related to.....
JO
-
Just to keep you all on your toes on this saga, following are the MIs for some of the Elliots buried in Annan.
ELLIOTS BURIED IN Annan
ANNAN OLD BURIAL GROUND
In memory of George IRVING, Master of the Sloop New Land who was lost in Ulverstone Canal on the 13th March, 1819 aged 34 years and is interred there. Also Margaret HALLIDAY his wife who died the 27th of November, 1857 aged 72 years. Also Andrew IRVING their son, Mason in Annan who died the 27th September, 1872 aged 59 years. Also Isabella ELLIOT his wife who died at Annan 12th May, 1899 aged 77 years.
Here lyes the body of Thomas ELLIOT, Smith in Annan who died November the 3 day, 1724 of age 55 years. [Back of stone] Here lyes Thomas ELLIOT son of William ELLIOT.
In memory of Margaret RICHARDSON spouse to William ELLIOT Coast Officer in Annan who died October, 1833… James ELLIOT Surgeon their eldest son who died at Lees near Manchester on the 2nd of December, 1855 aged 60 years. Also William ELLIOT M.D. of Sewerby Bridge their youngest son born 12th December, 1811 died 5th October, 1882. And James ELLIOT Surgeon of Sewerby Bridge only son of the last named born 22nd May, 1843 died 30th November, 1881. Stone weathered.
In memory of Thomas ELLIOT Blacksmith in Annan who died November the 3rd, 1724 aged 55 years. Also in memory of William ELLIOT his son, Blacksmith in Annan who died December 22nd, 1771 much regretted he lived to the age of 71 years well respected by all who knew him. Also Margaret MITCHELL spouse to William ELLIOT who died May 8th, 1766 aged 67 years. Also James ELLIOT late smith and Burgess in Annan son of the above William ELLIOT who died in June, 1787 aged 55 years. He lived beloved by all that knew him and died lamented by his friends. And Agnes BLAIR his spouse who died 5th March, 1812 aged 80 years. Also Bryce ELLIOT their son Accountant in the Bank of Scotland at Kelso who died 3rd April, 1796 aged 28 years.
ANNAN OLD PARISH CHURCH GRAVEYARD
In memory of Elizabeth McKinnel spouse of Robert Elliot in Annan who died 23rd February 1825 aged 47 years.
D2 In memory of John Jeffrey who died 19th February 1826 aged 13 years. Also Janet Elliot the beloved wife of James Jeffrey in Hull who died at Northfield Farm 28th July 1871 aged 47 years. ‘Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven’
In memory of Isabella Bell who died at Brydekirk Village 29th March 1883 aged 77 years. Foot of Stone Erected by her grandson William Elliot.
ANNAN NEW CEMETERY
B11 In memory of Life how short, eternity how long. Ann Scott Shennan, wife of Captain John Elliot, who departed this life at London on 1st October and was interred here on the 4th of October 1866 aged 33 years. Also the above John Elliot who died at Swatow, China, on the 30th October 1872 aged 40 years. Also Helen Elliot, daughter of the above and wife of David Gardiner, who died at Annan 29th December 1925 aged 62 years. Also the above David Gardiner who died at Annan 23rd March 1948 aged 83 years. Also Elliot Gardiner their son, died 11th September 1946 aged 42 years. Also David Gardiner their son died 15th June 1956 aged 61 years.
-
OH AGA!!!! :D :D
I have to tell you....as I was reading ....I could feel there was something big coming up....
and when I read the last passage I was covered in Goosebumps...and blood rushed to my head..
WOW.....Wow...wow.
Darling Anne...we now know what happened to you.. I am so grateful.
I must say 'fear na mara' I am sorry for jumping in and replying like this....and taking the pleasure away from you...but I couldn't help it...
You have a lot of info here.....and if they are all connected that is grand...
all the Elliot women...revealed again and Janet...knowing were exactly she died...wonderfull.
Oh...I can't explain...my happiness....now I am having a cry.
JO
Death Index
Ann Elliott aged 33...Dec Q ..E London, 1c 1
-
Demands of family took me to London for the last couple of days. I return now at dead of night to find yet another great seam of family history revealed. It is overwhelming: so much information - corroborative and new. Not just revelations from Aga, but pushing the envelope way back and way ahead. I will need to examine all this when I have recovered my composure. (If the current demands do not moderate, I shall have to consider becoming a Camaldolese hermit).
October was a bad month for Captain John - two wives and finally his own death. Yes Jo, it is a "sad joy" to have the end of Ann's story, and John mentioned on the same stone with his children and his childrens' children. But, John was not in London at the time of her death, he had set off on the Regent for a trip - first call West Indies, then round the Horn and across the pacific to the East Indies. I will need to look up the port stops and my log of telegraph growth to see when he might have had news of Ann's death.
-
When Captain John married Eliza Baverstock in May 1869, his residence was given as Albert Square, Limehouse - not yet made infamous by Jack the Ripper or famous by Eastenders. I have ordered a copy of Ann's death certificate which should tell us where they stayed while in London.
I am so grateful to AGA for the information about the graves, especially Annan new Cemetery, where Ann, John and Helen are commemorated. And their children Elliot and David, which brings this history into my own lifetime.
My mother is both delighted and saddened: to have found her lost relatives and their story, yet never to have known them.
Jo has really achieved quite an outstanding result and I hope there is a grander title than Aristocrat to mark her exceptional performance.
There is a small sadness that Isabella lies apart from the later family but consolation that she is perhaps with the forbears of Sarah Margaret's husband Edward - the Blacksmiths of Annan. It raises a question about my conclusion that Edward's grandfather, George and his great-uncle Thomas had their roots in Canonbie.
I see that a search of the Sasines would require a trip to Edinburgh - that must wait until the spring, when I anticipate loading the camels and trekking up to Scotland - first stop Annan.
-
I can add just a little to AGA's gravestones report. Not for the Elliots but Isabella's father-in-law, who is mentioned
on her gravestone in Annan Old Burial Ground.
The following is taken from the Dumfries Journal of 6th April 1819.
On the 30th March a Sunday evening, George Irving aged 39 and his younger brother William Irving aged 32 left a public house on the quay side at Ulverston Canal. The publican lighted their way to the steps.
Shortly after cries for help were heard and next morning the two bodies were found in the canal. George was the master of the 'Newlands' and left a wife and Five children.
Given his age, he had survived the worst the seas could throw at him and the hazards of the Napoleon's navy, only to drown in the local canal after a few drams too many.
-
Hi All,
I just thought I would add the facts on the Irving family seeming 'E' your on the trail at the moment..
{I must say 'E' you do have some wonderful resouces at hand...}.
1841 census
English St, Annan.
Agness Anson 20
Andrew Anson 30 Glass blower
Andrew Irving 25 Mason.
Margaret Irving 55 Widow
Margaret Irving 13
Susan Irving 12
Agness Williams 25
John Williams 25 (I am not sure of the order this is in..or even if it is right all the names together)
1851 Census
Murray St, Annan.
Margaret Irving Head, 67yrs, Sailors Widow, Annan.
Andrew Irving Son, 36yrs, Stone mason, (journeyman), Annan.
George Irving, grandson, 7yrs, Annan.
1861 Census
Murray Street, Annan.
Andrew Irving, Head, 46yrs, Stone-Mason (mastic), Annan.
Grace Irving, Neice, 14yrs, Annan.
'E' I was wondering if Andrew was a bachelor or a widower when he married Isabella Elliot?
Jo[/color]
-
Now, with the benefit of the marriage certificate, we know that Andrew waited in Back Lady Street and had his fiftieth birthday before Isabella married him. The patient Andrew contrasts with another Irving - William , born in Annan in 1816, became one of the youngest Captains working out of Boston. At the age of 33 he moved to the Western seaboard on the barque, Success, in which he owned some shares, and set up a freight business in Oregon. He bought a steamer, the Eagle, the first to work the North East Pacific, and some land as a base for his business. That base eventually became the city of Portland. He moved over the border into British Colombia and bought two river steamers to work the Fraser River. His home is now a heritage site. He is very well researched but the Annan roots do not indicate his relationship with our Irvings.
And – I recognise a nautical deviation which might pull too far from the business in hand.
And - if we skirt around the temptations of the sea-farers, we should avoid most carefully Edward Irving. whose statue used to stand outside the Town Hall, but was moved to the parish Church in what may be an act of forgiveness for his heresy. There is enough potential religious controversy in Helen and David Gardiner's son, John Elliot slipping off to marry in the United Free Church.
-
This is a fantastic thread of work!
I'm getting goosebumps reading. I have sea captains in my family from Annan so extra special interest for me.
I also have a coincidental name thing which is getting me very excited. Unfortunately my website seems to be down >:( but I have a female who had 5 illegitimate children all with the middle name Elliot born in and around Port St in the 1860-70s. I will log on tonight when I am at home to see if any naming patterns coincide. I have had many moments of "that sounds familiar" as I have read the thread but without access to my website I can't confirm anything.
Pam
:)
-
Thank you Pam - the trigger words are "that sounds familiar". A couple of months ago when I was trying to get some hold on Captain John – I checked the adresses he used in Liverpool. He had given these on his applications for mates and master’s examinations. I thought I might get a clue to his first marriage. Had he married the landlady’s daughter! Now we know better,
Now Pam's comments about half remembered names and recalling the link between Helen Elliot and Edward taking me back over old ground to blacksmiths, George and Thomas, I thought I might put here the occupants of the boarding houses – just in case names ring a bell for anyone.
CENSUS 1861
38 Sparling Street, Liverpool, St.Thomas Ecclesiastical parish St.Michaels
Relationship to Where Born Condition Sex Age Profession/Occupation,
Name Head of H'hold
CAMERON, Hugh Head Ireland M M 60 Lodging House Keeper
CAMERON, Margaret Wife Ireland M F 50
CAMERON, Mary Daughter U F 19 Domestic Servant
CAMERON, Esther Daughter Liverpool U F 13 Domestic Servant
CAMERON, Annie Daughter Liverpool U F 9 Scholar
CAMERON, Hugh Son Liverpool U M 17 Sailmaker
MC KENZIE, Donald Son ‘Law Scotland M M 28 Seaman Merchant Service
MC KENZIE, Margaret Daughter Ireland M F 27 Seamans Wife
MANSON, Daniel Boarder Scotland M M 31 Seaman Merchant Service
HUIG, Henry Boarder Holland U M 28 Seaman Merchant Service
BROWN, William Boarder Ireland U M 30 Lab Sugar W’house
BARNES, Thomas Boarder Bolton U M 23 Seaman Merchant Service
When John qualified as master he moved “up market” to Kent Square and stayed there during shore time, between Jan '60 - Jan '61. His marriage to Helen is in the Wirral: when I worked in Liverpool that was the posh side of the Mersey. Why did John not stay with his Shennan relatives ? Kent Square is just a couple of minutes from the docks - ??? But . . .
CENSUS 1861
13 Kent Square, Liverpool, St Thomas
Ecclestical Parish St.Marks
Name Relation ‘ to Where Born Con’dt Sex Age Profession/Occupat’
BOWMAN, David Head Ireland M M 35 Joiner
BOWMAN, Jane Wife Scotland M F 33
BOWMAN, James Son Lancaster Walton On The Hill Un M 3
BOWMAN, John Son Lancaster Walton On The Hill Un M 1
CASSADY, Daniel Boarder Scotland M M 50 Master Mariner
CASSADY, Robert Boarder Scotland M M 28 Master Mariner
DUKE, James Head Sielly Isles [sic] M M 34 Master Mariner
DUKE, Mary Wife Sielly Isles [sic] M F 30
I get no results searching for Ann Shennan in the 1841 and 1851 Census. The area of UK with the highest concentration of the name Shennan, in both 1881 and 1998, is Dumfries. Why does the gravestone list Ann as “Scott” Shennan? Was she really a Scouser ? I think Ann’s family were from “back home” in the Annan area. But I am not going to try to compete with Jo in the intuition department.
-
Hi E and so wonderful to hear from you Pam,
It has been a wonderful adventure hasn't it....I have loved every minute..
Got a bit carried away a few times..
I wasn't going to put any of this part on the thread till there was more to go on...but I suppose a discussion about different possiblities is how things can get sorted out..
In the 1841 c .......there is this family...
High Street, Annan.
William Shannan, 35yrs, Shoemaker.
David 13
Joseph 10
Anne Shannan, 7yrs.
William ..I feel is the father...but I think the mother of the 1841c children will be Sarah Irving. who a William Married on th 10 Oct 1828 Annan Batch Number: M118124.
If you put William Shennan in the father box and Sarah Irving in the mother box..
1 child pops up..
Joseph Shennan born 6 DEC 1830 c/ 12 DEC 1830 Annan, Dumfries, Scotland
this should be the Joseph in the 1841c....
now maybe ..why there is no mother ( in the 1841c) is because she has died and then William marries Ann Little..in 1843
I haven't checked Scotlandspeople ..for entries...
William Shennan married Ann Little 14 Jul 1843..Annan. Batch Number: M118124...( now this is a proper Church record)
BUT.....if you put William Shennan in the father box '''igi
and Ann Little in the mother box..
you get all submitted names...from well before this marriage of 1843 and after..so take note....but be very careful for if it was up to the submitter....then Ann Little would be the mother of Sarah Irving's children as well.....so the submissions have come from the 1851c..it also adds the address...Green Croft Lane....from the 1851c
these submissions have put 2 families together...Oh I do ramble on don't I....
So 'E' if you want to know who the father was..then the marriage is needed from England.
Only the father will be revealed sadly but maybe......
Ana.....
is there any chance of you seeing if there are any MI for Shennan....
Also
In the 1871c
If you remember that the Sea Captain's daughter Sarah Margaret Elliot was not with her Aunt Isabella ...but I think I have her boarding with a family in Annan...but badly mistranscribed..
{this still may not be her though}
1871c
Johnston St, Annan.
Christopher Richardson, 52yrs, Shemaker, Annan.
Janet wife, 52yrs, Annan.
Ann dau, 20yrs, Annan.
Christina Richardson, granddau, 5yrs, Annan.
Margaret Richardson, granddau, 6mths, Annan.
Mary Irving, 8yrs, boarder.
Annie Turnbull, 7yrs, boarder.
Sarah Ellwood, 7yrs, boarder, Annan.
William Ferguson, 4yrs, boarder,
I have no idea how this family fits ..
modified..
I thought I would delve further....
looking for a marriage of a Joseph Shennan....maybe brother to our Ann..
Joseph Shannan married Margaret Jeffery 11/12/1854 Annan....M118124
they had Sarah Shennan 26/1/1858 Annan..
in the
1861 Census
Hairs den St, Annan.
Adam Jeffery, 54yrs, Tailor, Annan.
Mary Jeffery, wife, 60yrs, Annan.
Richard, son, 23.
Margaret Shannen, dau, 30,
Sarah Shannen, granddau, 3yrs..
not sure if Joseph is alive....
-
Jo is really into her stroke now and this boat is skimmin. The marriage certificate is on order.
The scene in 1871
Joseph and Andrew are living and working down in Egremont in Cumberland.
Their brother, Captain John, is now in the China Seas with his second wife, Eliza, who is in the last months of her life and baby John William ( my grandfather) is just months old.
John’s children by his first marriage are back in Annan, his first wife is now deceased ( and we are waiting for the death certificate). His children, Ellen [Helen, 7yrs] and young Joseph (9 yrs) are living with Auntie Isabella and Uncle Andrew Irving at Lodge Wynd (?). Sarah Margaret (6) but listed in this census as 7 is boarding with the Richardsons. So are other young children. Are Richardsons running a mini-orphanage?
Once again, I wonder is Isabella the “bursar” handling payments from John for the care of the children? She had brother and sister living with her – why not Sarah Margaret?
Captain John did not declare his wife Eliza in the Log of the Rifle but all the crew had to be listed and checked by the Consul at each port of call. His Crew List for 1871 is here.
John Elliot 42 Annan Master
John Runcie 26 Aberdeen Mate £7.00
William Mearns 25 Banff Carpter & Bosun £6.00
William Simon 32 Singapore ABS $16.00
Ambrose Rigaso 31 Manila ABS $16.00 Swatow discharged
Gindah 23 Singapore ABS $16.00 Shanghai deserted
Hassan 29 Malacca ABS $16.00 Swatow w. consent
Seedim 28 Singapore ABS $16.00 Shanghai deserted
Ahmat 27 Singapore ABS $16.00 Shanghai deserted
Ah sos 26 Swatow ABS $16.00 w. consent
Ko sin 25 Swatow ABS $16.00 w. consent
T'ai sing 27 Swatow ABS $16.00 w. consent
Peter Fletcher Mauritius ABS $16.00 w. consent
Alli ? ? 30 singapore ABS $16.00 w. consent
Dora singapore ABS $ 5 w. consent
Matteo ?? ABS $5 w. consent
The itinerary is Singapore, Hong Kong, Osaka, Cheefoo, Hong Kong, Nagasaki, Osaka, Saigon, Nagasaki, etc.
John Runcie was appointed Master after John’s death the following year.
-
The marriage certificate was disappointing – addresses for the pair were given simply as Birkenhead and Liverpool, respectively. But there was a helpful snippet – her father was a Cordwainer. Now that confirmed Kenjo’s discovery of William Shannan in the High Street in Annan, with his two sons and daughter, Ann. William pops up with his shoemaking business in Green Croft Wynd/Lane – with his wife and subsequent children. Census 51/61/71. Strangely, there was an Ann Shannan and her daughters in Green Croft Wynd in the ’41 census. But as our Ann’s family moved from the High Street to Green Croft Wynd after ’41, the older Mrs Ann Shannan and her daughters moved to the High Street. It looks almost as if the addresses had been transposed for the ’41 census.
As for cordwainers and shoemakers, my good lady, Bean na |Mara, comes from an unbroken line of Lancastrian shoemakers and leather workers. Her clan brings a new meaning to endogamy. For them a skeleton in the cupboard is a spouse who was deficient in leather skills.
The marriage certificate yielded another small piece in the jigsaw. The first witness was Robert Elliot Henderson, Master Tailor of Duke Street, Liverpool, employing four men. (England Census 1871 – 1901). Robert was born in Annan where his father, John, had been a Master Tailor in the High Street. Not a native of Annan, John was born just over the border in the Cumbrian, Longtown. He was the son of a ship’s cook and his mother Margaret joined her son and his family in Annan after she was widowed. They were neighbours of the Shannans on the High Street close to James Irving's Inn (census 1841).
John moved the family south to Liverpool (Census 1861) first to Toxteth and modest premises. Robert met and married a Liverpool Tailoress – not seamstress, (which surprised me) and then expanded the business, employing four men in the Duke Street premises.
Robert, witness at the wedding of John and Ann, was not just a childhood neighbour.
Though Ann’s father was a shoemaker, her uncle William was a tailor who was a fellow apprenticeship with David Gardiner in the shop of master Tailor, James Irving. There are links here that need more investigation but they are relegated to a later phase as there are more immediate matters to be investigated.
John and Ann were married a the parish church in Birkenhead, according to the rites of the Established Church, i.e. the Cof E. The 1901 census entry for Robert Elliot Henderson details his guest as a minister of the Reformed Church (Cof E no longer spoken of as the reformed church at this time) with his wife and three children. I reckon it is was not common for people to have a minister and his family as house guests. Kenjo has emphasised the long service of John's sister Isabella and later, the long service of his daughter Sarah, as servants at the manse in Annan. I have been to the British Library to follow up another reference dug up by Kenjo - Journeys in North China, Manchuria and Eastern Mongolia, by Alexander Williamson (pub. 1870). This eminent Presbyterian missionary spent the later part of his life as a linguist with the Chinese Customs Service [ there is a special project dedicated to their work at Bristol University]. He describes the end of the first phase of the mission and the start of the second phase: "On Sept 9th 1867, we went on board the good ship the Rifle, Capt. Elliot of Annan, who kindly gave us and our books a free passage." There is a very brief description of "the tedious journey" to Newchwang, but no further mention of Captain Elliot or the ship. The thread I see here is the involvement with the Church. Am I reading too much into these events.
There was a second certificate just before Christmas. Ann’s death. As next of kin have now been briefed, I can now reveal that Ann took her own life, leaving three orphans, the youngest not yet a year old. Here indeed is the more pressing task.
-
Had a bad day today. Started at the London Metropolitan Archive. Three boxes of Inquest reports covering the period 1866, were delivered to the desk. Unlike other archives you do not get to explore unsupervised. The archivist opened the first box and fingered through the folds of grey paper, each one like a take-away menu, four or five folds. Some of the papers had to be eased apart and the rim of rust at the edges of the paper darkened to black and it was clear that dampness had encouraged a mould growth. She came to a block wrapped in paper and tied with string. My anticipation was growing. She undid the wrapping and the ends of the bundle of papers dissolved into a fine ash. The mood changed and I had the feeling one gets when visiting a very sick patient in hospital. I was no longer addressed. A conservator was summoned. He arrived wearing gloves and a cotton face mask tucked under his chin. She pointed, he peered, raised his mask, touched and promptly rewrapped the bundle. Without a word to me, he departed with all three boxes. The archivist gave me a form to fill out details of the documents and the object of my search. When I returned it, she said, “we may be in contact with you”. I left with a very strong feeling that they might not. I have no doubt that despite the presence of these trained specialists, the deterioration of these papers is due to being too tightly packed and stored in conditions of high humidity. I think the gloves and mask owed more to an excess of “Health and Safety” than it did to preservation.
Lunch was very good in an old City of London pub and there was no sign of the hysteria about today’s tumbling share prices. Perhaps because almost everybody else in the dining room was French; come to the Walrus to gather intelligence on the British sausage – the speciality of the house. I walked past the Tower and the Lutyens memorial to the 32,000 merchant seamen lost in two World Wars. Directly opposite is the Minories. This is where Ann was staying when she took her life. I had a chat with a cabbie who assured me that Circus Minories used to be at the Aldgate end and “was bombed by Jerry”. He rattled off London Circuses - Ludgate, Piccadilly, Finsbury, Cambridge, Holborn, St.Giles, Lismore . . . Only one very elegant building of the period remains on the Circus and the church of St Botolph is still standing due only to constant restoration. I have, therefore only the entry on the death certificate: Female, 33 years, Wife of John Elliot a Captain in the Merchant Service. Suicide by swallowing a large quantity of Laudanum about 3 hours. Temporary Insanity. P.M. Information received from Wm. Payne, Coroner for London and Southwark. Inquest held 3 October 1866. Registered 5th October 1866.
I should have recognised that this was not an auspicious day, but walked to the Guildhall Library to inspect Lloyds Shipping movements around the time of Ann’s death. Did John take her body to Annan within four days – or was he still at sea? My last examination of five years worth of registers had thrown up a few indistinct entries so I was not prepared for the frames on the microfilm when I reached the October 1866. Four frames marked “pages lost”. I left sucking my thumb and blubbering, “I want Kenjo”.
-
Oh 'E',
I was only thinking today, I have to write to 'E'....I have been toooo rude.
I have had fairies and goblines playing havoc with me..re: 2 other trees.....they are continually partying and there is a carnaval on at this very minute....pleasuring over their disruptiveness
My angels have stood back and chosen not to help..
so please forgive my absence....
also
I have been merging one lady's tree......she had created 4 trees on 3 programs... enough to send a sane person off the edge..
So enough of my miseries..
I was devastated by dear Ann's suicide...
I can't bring myself back to the Shannon's...because of my previous distractions...and I need peace and things to go my way to concentrate on the problem.....but I have had none of theses things and I don't think I will for at least another 2 weeks...
Questions to be pondered...
I think that the date ..Ann chose to die..is very important.....was she devastated not to go with John...and did he decide never to make this mistake again....only to find his fears to be true...when his beloved 2nd wife died....at sea ..or away from home...
Was Ann..alone? was her little babes with her or safe with their Aunts?
Was Ann dreadfully alone.......and punishing John?
I feel for your unfortunate encounter with the archives......and felt your every word...
All I can say......I am here......and I want to help.... given time..
Peace to Ann.
JO
-
Ann - The Inquest.
Thanks to Janice M, Rootschat Aristocrat, I have the Times report of the inquest on Ann's death and attempt to attach it here. More after some sober reflection
-
Checking on technical fault.
-
I have returned from my pilgrimage to Annan where I visited Ann’s grave. A fine memorial over six feet high in the “new” cemetery outside the town. Back in the old cemetery, behind the Town Hall, we looked for the memorial stone for Andrew Irving and his wife Isabella Elliot. It was AGA who had passed on the text of both of these memorials, so it was a surprise to find another memorial – the Shennans. Kenjo and the other serious genealogists will throw up their hands and ask: why did I not begin by visiting the Family History Centre in Dumfries and get a copy of the MIs. Well, some of us are slow learners. I did go to the Centre – after I had slogged through the graveyards. I was unable to get a photograph of the Shennan memorial, not only because the rain was sheeting down but the wind was threatening to lift me off my feet.
The Shennan memorial was very informative. First - Ann’s mother, Sarah Irving.
Back before Christmas, Kenjo dug up the details of the marriage between Sarah and William on the IGI and also found the family in the 1841 census, but without a wife. Now we know that Sarah died, aged 32, when Ann was 5 years old and just one week after little Robert’s 2nd birthday. The 1841 Census, gave us William with his three children, David, Joseph and Ann living on the High Street, but Robert did not appear until the 1851 Census, aged 14, I have trawled the ’41 census for him but not been successful.
And now we know that two of Ann’s brothers were mariners. Ann had lost her mother when she was just five years old, her brother Joseph was lost at sea in the Indian Ocean the year before Ann got married. Joseph was First Officer on the clipper, Mary Cannon, . According to the MI, the vessel left Akyab, [a port in Burma – or Myanmar, if you prefer] 1st April, 1858 for Port Said and was never seen again. The following year she married John, and she lost her brother Robert who died in Hong Kong on the Annandale ( the biggest of the fast clippers built at Annan). And just a reminder, five months after Ann's death, John's mother who had been living with the family, died.
The following year Isabella, John’s eldest sister, then 42 years old, married Andrew Irving who was a monumental mason living in Backlady Street – though his workshop was in Murray Street. They took in the Elliot children and raised them. Kenjo spotted very early in this hunt that Isabella, was a servant at the Manse for 24 years. She went there as a young girl to attend to Rev James Monilaws and his family. In 1863, when Rev Monilaws was 76 years old, he was joined by Rev Dr. James Alexander Crichton, a young man who had already made quite a reputation as a scholar. He had taken a double first in Mathematics and Classics at St. Andrews. In preparation for the exams for the Indian Civil Service he had studied Oriental languages which led him to serious scriptural study: he had already produced Syriac and Ethiopic grammars by the time he got to Annan. He had a European reputation in his field. He did not marry and in his early days in the parish he lodged with Isabella Halliday and her elderly mother, Elizabeth ( I am looking at links with John Shennan’s wife, Margaret Holliday, back in the Georgian period). The Rev Crichton was very popular, he drilled the volunteers and was a good enough shot to compete at Bisley. He was also a director of the Annan Savings Bank. What comes through the account of his life is that he was a very genial man with a remarkable capacity to listen and be helpful. Kenjo had the feel of the kind of ethos that prevailed at the Manse, an environment that Isabella would not have given us easily and one she desired for her niece who also spent many years at the Manse.
But, one more thing - David. Ann's eldest brother was not a sailor, he went to Australia and became a goldminer. Kenjo - time for a small sweet sherry.
-
Goosebumps Goosebumps again!
What a wonderful history.
I have recovered from Ann's death..lovely the family made such a monument.
No one will chastise you for not going to Annan ...before this...everything has unfolded perfectly.
Such highs and lows, everyone will be so pleased for you.
I have a probable right David Shennan for you...
David died 1869 aged 37yrs, in Victoria. father William and mother Sarah. he was born Scotland.
also in Inquests.
David died Sandhurst, from (fall of earth).....I wonder if this is a mine cave in
David may have married Helen or Ellen Don.. if this is the right David they married 1857 victoria.
and had 3 children
Jane Shannan born 1857 Ballarat, and died 1859
Sarah Ann Shennan 1859 Ballarat.
Agnes Johnson Shennon 1862 Beaumont.
It looks likely that Sarah Ann Shennan married Thomas Anderson Cook 1878...the index says she was born Ballarat..
They had
Henry Cook 1879 Will ( not sure what town that is short for )...vic
David Alexander Cook 1881 also Will, Vic
Thomas Anderson Cook 1883 Brunswick, Vic
Thomas Anderson Cook, born Brunswick 1883, died at Yarram, aged 64. He came to live in Balook in 1889 and was the Yarram to Traralgon "Mailman of the Hills" from 1912 for 25 years. August 1948 Traralgon Journal
cont: sarah's children.
William Don Cook 1887 Fitzroy, Vic
they had another 3 children in Traralgon, Vic
Agnes Johnston Shennan married Robert John Chapple 1884 she was born Fiery Creek, Victoria.
They had
Helen Don Chapple 1884 Ballarat. she died 21 days later.
Robert Arundle Chapple 1886 Ballarat.
they had another 7 children in Stawell, Vic..
will write them up later.
Well there you go it is all correct..I found this posting..
http://www.ballaratgenealogy.org.au/hw/help2008.htm
this is what it says
SHENNAN / SHENNON
I am looking for information on the SHENNAN/SHENNON family. David Shennan married Hellen DON on 17th March 1857 at Presbyterian Church Ballarat. The marriage certificate stated that he was 26, gold miner from Annan Scotland. His father was William SHENNAN a shoe maker, his mother Sarah IRVING. Hellen DON was 25, from Auchterader Scotland. Her parents Alexander DON and Jean ( nee SOMERVILLE) came to Australia in 1856 on the "Arthur The Great" with their children Anne 22, Alexander 12, Robert 12, Hellen 24, James 17. They were assisted immigrants.
David and Helen had three daughters Sarah Ann(SHENNAN) born 1859, Jane(SHANNAN) born 1857, Agnes Johnson(SHENNON) born 1862.
Agnes married Robert CHAPPLE in 1883. I am looking for some information on when and where David SHENNAN came to Australia, how he got to Ballarat. I believe a David SHENNON was killed in a mining accident in 1869, but haven't confirmed this is the same David SHENNON. If it is what would have happened to Hellen? Did she remarry? When or where did she die? Where is David buried?
Any information or help would be appreciated.
Contact: Pam Messenger, 6 Morison Street, Maffra Vic 3860, Australia - EMAIL - February 2008
Lovely to hear from you again E
JO 8)
-
I thought there was enough on my last post just to winkle you out of your chair but I should have know better; just one sniff of the rabbit and the hounds are off in full chase. Kenjo lines them up and Pam pops up and ticks every ping.
PAM “Believes David was killed in a mining accident”
Kenjo has the inquest for David: died Sandhurst, from (fall of earth).....I wonder if this is a mine cave in. The memorial stone says: David Shennan their eldest son born 26 June 1829 and accidentally killed in the Deep Lead Gold Mine, Huntley Victoria 3 June 1869. Is that helpful ?
When I was looking for Robert Shennan, who was missing on the night of the 1841 Census, I found a Robert Shennan in Liverpool. He too was a mariner but the bells rang out for the address – Sparling Street. Captain John used to stay at Hugh Cameron’s lodging house at number 38. Robert Shennan and his wife Janet were from Caerlaverock, east of Annan, but had been in Liverpool prior to the birth of their eldest child, Robert, who was in 1851, an apprentice seaman. In the early days while Robert senior was at sea, Janet and her son Robert stayed in a boarding house in a Scottish enclave in Toxteth, but, by 1851 they had moved to 59 Sparling Street. Robert’s brother, John was also a master mariner. Not relatives of Ann?, well, not very close. She did not stay with them when she came down to Liverpool to marry John and it was John Henderson, the tailor, who was best man at the wedding. But this is yet another example of the Dumfries nautical presence and the replication of social networks in commercial hubs.
While in Annan, we drove out to Cummertrees, climbed into the cemetery, but found no trace of the Glovers – John Elliot’s mother’s family. On a whim, we carried on into the village, and found the Kirk with a wonderful lych-gate. Just three rows in and there was John Glover: farmer in Malsgill, who died 9th May 1799 aged 54 years also Helen Radcliff his spouse who died 31st January 1799 aged 48 years, also Joseph their youngest son, mariner, he died at Sierra Leone 18th January 1826 aged 34 years, also Anthony Glover their son, mariner, who died at Annan 25th January 1847, aged 63 years . Five years before Anthony’s death, the 1841 census shows Anthony’s wife, Charlotte (Foster) Glover and her daughter, Jane in Queensbury Street in Annan, with three young children, the youngest, 2 year old John Park who grew up to be master mariner and retired to Annan ( census 1901). Four year old, Charlotte Blacklock’s mother, Margaret (Glover) Blacklock had given birth to baby Helen three days before the census took place, hence youg Charlotte farmed out to her Aunt. Father – John, though not a mariner was in one of the other “family” trades – “joiner and cabinet maker”. This link was made thanks to the MIs for the Old Burial Ground.
So John Elliot’s in laws and his uncles were mariners. Uncle Anthony was around up until the year before John was apprenticed to Robert Ewart, Master of the Lawsons. When he was ashore, Robert Ewart lived with his wife and three small children in Port Street, within view of the Manse. He was the son of James Ewart, one of more than two dozen ship owners listed in Pigot’s Directory for Annan (1837). Robert survived many voyages and retired to a house on Watchill, on the eastern edge of Annan. The MIs - and I have only two for the smaller cemeteries - are bulging with mariners. But even at this stage there emerges a much clearer picture of a community with shipping at its centre: John was not a one off.
There is more to be done on the MIs.
I am in contact with Pam - David's descendant - and I await more news from Oz.
-
Fantastic work E!
The layers have been peeled back, and I am so happy to be corrected about Johns blood.
It is only fitting that mariners blood ran freely through John's veins.
You have revealed so very much..
To have the headstones to back all your earlier searching, is a blessing..and huge plus.
I don't have any headstones in my family....
Your heritage is rich.
Pam will be thrilled to have her questions answered..
So pleased for you.
JO :D
-
Hello. my wife is a descendant of the elusive seaman, Captain John Elliot. i was referred to this rootschat site by a person who had previously read your story. i haven't used this site before. I've quickly scanned your posts and am just amazed with what you have put together here. this is simply wonderful. i can't wait to analyze every name, date, reference etc.
before i do that i simply had to post a quick reply to say thank you for your hard work.
my wife's grandfather, John Elliot, was the son of Joseph Elliot and the grandson of Capt. John Elliot. I've collected quite a bit of information about her family tree but couldn't find much about the seaman Capt. John Elliot. you have certainly filled in those gaps. thanks so much.
i have so many questions to ask I'm not sure where to start. can you tell me if the family tree of capt. john elliot has been summarized somewhere like on Genes Reunited or a personal website?
Merv and Kathy Scott
Victoria, BC, Canada
-
Hello Canadian cousins - what a delightful discovery.
Kathy will be the granddaughter of John (who was born in 1888 in Egremont) and Annie who was born in St.Bees a year earlier. If I have the geometry right, John was my 1st cousin once removed. So indeed we are kin. Quick hugs all round. Yet again we must conjure up a small, sweet sherry for Kenjo who was instrumental in this act of family reunion.
I will be delighted to learn as much as possible about the 20th Century branch, not to say 21st Century, of the family
-
hello cousin....my that has a nice ring to it.
Kathy's grandfather is John Elliot born Oct 4, 1887 in Moor Row, Egremont. he had married Isabella Mills Little (born, Aug 23, 1892, Denholm).
her great grandfather, Joseph Elliot, was born Sept 15, 1861, at 13 Cumberland Terrace, Annan to Capt John and Ann Shannon. Joe married Ann Smith on Nov 30, 1886 at Egremont.
i'll add more to this site when i have a moment.
Your tracking of the Captain's naval records is amazing. did you find his death certificate? i've gone thru the string of posts above once but need to read it much more closely. was it cholera or typhoid or something that took him and his wife?
Merv and Kathy
-
Tried to scale a picture of John's Master's Certificate but - it is still too big. My usual limitations are accentuated at this hour. I will try again tomorrow.
-
hello from Canada.
your discussions have provided so much incredible information to me that i simply have to pay you back by providing some information that hopefully you dont' have.
i'm not sure where to start but i'll try my luck with Joseph (Joe) Elliot, born to John and Anne (M.S. Shennon...or is it Shannon?).
you have given me some wonderful information about his youth that was a strange void for me. what an interesting but tragic tale. if it's any consolation it finishes much happier for Joe. here's the short form.
Joe married Anne Smith of Whitehaven on Nov 30, 1866 at Bigrigg, Egremont. She was born about 1866 to Aaron Smith a Collier. Joe became the key operators of the local grocery called the Cleator Moor Co-operative Society and Anne worked there with him.
Kathy's mother, Elsie, told us of stories about her grandfather Joe and that he served in the Co-op Society for 60 years, being the manager for all of his working life, retiring in 1934. Elsie also reported that Joe was a good athlete and known as one of the best billiards players in West Cumberland and to have excelled at (lawn) bowling, and served as the Worshipful Master of Stirling Lodge Freemasons in 1897.
Joe and Anne had a large family that i'll discuss in later postings:
- John (Kathy's grandfather)
- Aaaron (middle name was Smith)
- Joeseph
- Florence...i'm confused here but might be the same person as Rene??
- Annie May
- Mary Lillian
- Nellie
- Esther Ellen
- Allan (i have located Allan's son and his family here in Canada and we are presently starting to share information)
i hope this is of help to you? i'd be happy to post more.
Merv and Kathy
-
Six months ago, I was asking if there was any chance of a lead on an Annan mariner - John Elliot and now I have cousins in Canada - increasing with each posting: BC and now Toronto. And not just names and dates - but the life details. And Uncle Joe was a stalwart of the Coop at a time when the area was still expanding greatly in the scramble for the haematite: demand expanding with the exponential growth in demand for iron. All of that has long gone and it is simply the edge of the Lake District. Were it not for our ancestors there we might have lost sight of the historical significance of that area in the Industrial Revolution and the irony of Joe servicing the workers producing the iron and feeding the steam that would put an end to the great sailing ships.
Your news about the last three children Nellie. Esther and Alan is also an addition to my info - as I reckon they were born after the 1901 census. And we may hear more about Alan and his family. Oh delight!
N.B. Slip on the keyboard - Joe and Ann got married at Bigrigg, Egremont, Dec, 1886 (Whitehaven 10b 873)
-
you've made my day. i'm so happy to hear that some of my information is new to you. i'd love to be able to assist you in putting together this puzzle and re-connecting new found relatives.
yes it was a slip of keyboard....1886 is correct.
thanks cousin.
Merv and Kathy.
ps. i'm going to have to figure out how to start a discussion on my Scott lineage too. i've gotten back to approx 1801 in Ashkirk. i'd like to get the root's chat monitor to add Ashkirk to the Selkirkshire discussion board before i start though. i've sent one message to what i think is the moderator. is there an easier contact for the moderator....or can i add Ashkirk somehow myself to the district lists of parishes wihtin Selkirkshire?
-
here's some more info and a teaser for my new found friend from Australia....and yet another question:
Allan Elliot, born to Joe Elliot and Anne Smith on Oct 11, 1904, in Whitehaven, married Nellie Louise Potts born Aug 5, 1905 in Kalgoorlie, Boulder, Western Australia. they lived in Lancaster, she a teacher and he a British Rail Station Master at Lancaster.
now the question...in my searching i came across another seaman named John Elliot....only much earlier. he sailed with, amongst others i would guess, Capt Cook. you can read about him at: http://pages.quicksilver.net.nz/jcr/~cookmen4.html
well folks.....any chance our Capt John had earlier relatives that were also men of the sea?
this is such fun.
M.
-
Apologies for the length of my reply to your second question Merv.
When I discovered my grandfather’s entry in the Dublin census of 1901, listing his place of birth as Japan, it was a surprise and a lead. The Consular Returns ( now available on line) showed that there were not very many British babies born in Japan at the start of the Meji period, when the civil war was not quite ended and trade was regulated by the Unequal Treaties, which had forced China and Japan to open their ports to European ships: not least some very heavily armed war ships. Grandfather was there in a very short list and I ordered his birth certificate which cited JW’s father as a Master Mariner.
My next task was to find Captain John in The Index to the Captains Registers of Lloyd’s of London ( Guildhall Library) covering the eighteen fifties to the end of the Edwardian period.
Seventy four Elliot master mariners are listed. Sixteen of these are Elliot with single T – which is roughly the ratio of singles Ts to double Ts in any general index. Three of these single T Elliots are called John, only one is Scots. Born Dumfries 1834, Certificate no. C 15108, awarded in Liverpool in 1861.
So despite the misleading date of birth – which kept me stumped, but not Kenjo – this was the only man to fit the bill. His application form for the examination of Mate listed his sea service and with his certificate number,
I could track in Lloyd’s Shipping Register all the ships he had commanded as Master.
Only he was in Nagasaki at the time of John William Elliot’s birth. The Register of Consular Returns listed one Elliot birth in Nagasaki and two Elliot deaths in the China Seas area – Eliza and Captain John. Those indexes and the good fit of the data were sufficient justification to buy all the certificates and, the rest is history.
I retell this mainly to flag the number of Elliot/ts just in that half century – and just in the Merchant Service. I would be wary about undertaking the search for a link between sea faring Elliots just on the basis of their common vocation. It is, however, tempting to look at the relatioships between the sea faring families in Annan. We know the connection with the Glover, the Shennan and the Irving mariners, and we have more recently seen Anthony Glover’s daughters were married into the Nelsons, the Blacklocks and the Parks – all with seafarers.
I can well understand the urge to find a link with the great Elliot naval commanders – the following is a translation from the Manx Gaelic – and just a few of the many verses
When little Carrickfergus was completely strippéd,
They then meant to arrive in this Island all unknown
But how little did they think who would first meet them there,
Who all their impertinence would bring unto an end.
It was Elliot that they met, who made an attack on them,
And with a most daring front openéd fire on them.
Right ahead went great Thurot, with all his wonted pride,
But he had to surrender on board of the "Belleisle."
When they all came together, and were firing the guns,
And the top-masts were flying, going east and going west,
The Frenchmen's blood like water most freely was spilling,
And Thurot's great ship "Belleisle" was riddled like a sie
There were six score fully of the choicest French guns
Against Elliot's cannons, which were five score and four;
Three ships of battle against three, they fought very fiercely,
Till Thurot he discovered his heels up in the air.
The Frenchmen had good reason to lament bitterly,
For the business that was done in three halves of an hour
Of the sailors three hundred were wounded sore or dead,
And a dozen of hundreds going into the hold.
There were five of the English, who were dead there also,
And thirty-one more wounded severely in the fray;
But many a one would have felt wounded at that same time,
Had not the gallant Elliot won the fight on that day.
The inhabitants of Mannin on the Island's west side,
Even Bishop Mark Hildesley, and all his household too,
Were observing most keenly, and seeing and hearing,
From beginning unto end, how the big fight was played.
They were called their best friends by landsmen and sailors,
Much was made of the sailors, who had won on that day; ,
And never since King William had sailed unto Ireland,
"ere there such bright days shining over Ramsey.
Just a fraction - it does go on and on.
-
"Allan Elliot . . .married Nellie Louise Potts . . .they lived in Lancaster", and I attended graduate school in Lancaster and stopped overnight there on the way up to Annan last month.
-
and Nellie Potts taught high school in Lancaster...it is a small world afterall.
thanks for the information and advice about searching for yet another seaman named Elliot and especially for the wonderful story of battling the Belleisle. it's remarkably vivid.
i've started going thru all your previous postings and it's a wonderful source of information and history. your john william is certainly a mystery man. can you share what you've learned about him and his wife to date? maybe that will lead us somewhere?
i'd like to learn more about those seafaring Elliots and Shennans. what do you suggest for a novice like me? isn't there a Coles Notes book on the topic?
your pesty cousins from Canada.
-
Hi Ya!
You are in safe hands M with E looking after you...I am engrossed in a family history and have been away...but
Would you like me to look into the fmily of Nellie Louise Potts?
I see her parents were John Leonard Poots and Maggie Otten.
Jo :D
-
Thank you Jo. your expertise may not be needed on the Potts family as thier son, Allan, says he has a good and interesting history. i'll get it from him before i use up any of your valuable time. now John William and his father are mystery men. what became of them i wonder?
Canuck
-
What a fantastic thing! Family being brought together.
Can I just add a guiding word? Can I ask you to be a wee bit careful with naming anyone who may still be alive as their identity must be protected.
Thanks,
Pam
-
i can see that i'm not following everyone else's good practice. i'll get better. thanks for the advice.
-
Dear Sir
My friend Vera (details ofliving person removed) is the Gt Gt Granddaughter of John Elliot, Master mariner.
She has been researching for ages and is overjoyed at discovering, through me, more information, particul;arly about the ship Rifle.
I have printed off all 5 pages for her as although she is online she is not yet fully computer savvy.
regards
Brian Higgins
-
Spookie or what? I have been travelling for the past two months. Returned last night after midnight. Today, I have been remonstrating with a sulky dishwasher and a boiler throwing tantrums. So now, shortly before midnight, I dare to face the emails. Deleting all the offers and the chain-jokes (virals), I need to let a lot of people know that I ain’t dead yet. Then zing: up pops a smoke signal from Rootschat, the first wisp in six months and WOW – what a link.
It is just a few weeks short of the first anniversary of my appeal on Rootschat, and during the first six months, I have been linked with cousins in Canada (Merv, have you alerted Kathy to our new cousin?) and Scotland. Vera will be my first close cousin in England: just up the road really ( 200Kms). May your glass never run dry Brian. You must warn Vera that 5 pages is just a smidgen – there is a lot more.
-
Dear Sir,
thank you for your response. i will be seeing Vera on Tuesday21/10 and will give her all the information along with a copy of your reply. i seem to have more luck with Veras` Genealogy than with my own.!
I will ask Vera if she would have any objection to using her Email address for correpondence, that is of course with your agreement. I have no problem in disclosing mine which is [email removed - please use the private message system to share details - it prevents abuse]
thank you again
kind regards
Brian Higgins
-
great news Brian. Vera's going to have a wonderful read about the Sea Captain thanks to Eamonn's detective work. i'll send you a personal email in a moment because i can't wait to learn how Vera is connected to us.
Merv
-
Hi team,
It is a wonderful thing to have been involved in this thrilling tale.
The Sea Captain will be pleased, with the joining of family, there, and across the seas!
Ann will be relieved that she is now known to her descendants.
E, you will handle your new extended family as you have so successfully handled the thousands of fortunates who have come under your guidance.
I have loved the educated hand. The reason this flowed so well was you bought the necessary documents, pronto. That was the secret to all flowing harmoniously.
I am thrilled to have been of assistance.
Joanne :)
-
Days under dense, grey skys; chilling drizzle; dismay news of hard times and so on, as Alan Sherman sang to Mudda and Fadda the perils of Camp Grenada. Likewise, how things are transformed by news of a new relative - come on Vera, give us a wave. How the spirit rises at the sound of our beloved Kenjo. Great to hear your words again. It seems like summer never happened. Well, it didn't, did it. What a joy to back among our ain folk.
There is work to be done sorting so many files - Merv is a gleaming example of diligent marshalling - but the temptation to follow the hunches and glimpses at the edge of vision will once again lure me into the labyrinth of archives. Yumme, can't wait.
-
hi
my relative james clark b1836 in annan was a master mariner .his family is on the 1841 census .but not on other census .it might be useful to check at dumfries library of dumfries and galloway genealogists .
bill
-
There are more than 20 James Clark’s listed in the Index to Lloyds Captains Registers. Mostly Scots, but only one from Dumfries and his dob is given as 1838 and 1835. So Jamie’s handwriting might have been a wee bit fluid. He won his master’s Certificate in Shields in 1865. It was common for mariners to be awarded their ticket in their late twenties. He is listed in the registers between the years 1865 and 1872, but I do not have easy access to these – you would need to visit Greenwich. You would then know which ships he captained. But if you make the request ahead of your visit, there is a good chance that they will have his application forms for the mate’s and master’s exams. Then you would have a full list of his service from apprentice to master. Greenwich offer a postal service but there is a charge for that.
The 1841 census offers two James Clarks dob Annan at your date of 1836: the Miller’s son on North Street and Joseph, the cotton-weaver’s son at Hiltown. I have not found any trace in the Annan MIs. There are much sharper hunters who cruise these boards, far better qualified to hook your James, but they would be helped by having as much detail as you can muster.
Happy St Patrick's Day -well evening
-
hi fear na mara
well james clark was my gggrandad born 4/4/1836 from sp .robert the miller was his dad and mum margaret weild .cant find his 9 brothers and sisters or parents after the 1841 census .i have his mariners record at shields.he drowned off lisbon in 1873 .
he wed elizabeth jane kell at blyth in 1861.at that time robert was a mason .dont know whether family moved to northumberland .can you get a list of masons .
bill