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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Renfrewshire => Topic started by: tassiedevil on Friday 31 December 04 00:35 GMT (UK)
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I am trying to find relatives of Agnes BARR who married Andrew Liddell ( Liddal / Liddle / Liddel) on the 10th Febuary 1809.
Has anyone have her on their family tree?
Cheers, Tassie :)
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Latter Day Saints Site
Agnes Barr
christening 5 July 1789
Burntshields Associate Congregation Kilbarcham Renfrew Scotland Parents James Barr and Janet Aitkin
Batch no C190601 source call no o889483 IT 7 Film 1745-1801
Agnes Barr birth 1789 Houston Renfrew
no source information
Agnes Barr christening 19th Sept 1790 Renfrew Scotland
Parents William Barr and Ann Fairservice
no source info
Agnes Barr birth Oct 8 1792 Middle Paisley Renfrew Scotland Parents John Barr and Margaret Ralston
Film no 446047 ref no 26854
christening 16th Oct 1792 Middle Church Paisley
Batch no c119616 1788-1807
source call 1041284 film print out no 6901703
Agnes Barr 15th DEC 1793 Houston Renfrew
parents John Barr Agnes Turnbull
film no 446295 page 0009
Agnes Barr 1793 Houston Renfrew
Parents George Barr and Isabella Lang
film no 184240 page 236 ref no 5155
regards Pam
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I have traced my family tree back to Ann Fairservice married to WILLAM BARR 4TH JUNE 1774, father of Ann was james Fairservice, who was appraently a customs & excise officer, at the time of Burns
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Hi John
My tree goes back to Agnes Barr b.1778 in Lochinvar, Renfrew. You indicate that her parents were William BARR and Ann FAIRSERVICE....can you please confirm where this info came from - and also if you have anything earlier on William & Ann apart from their marriage 4 june 1774 (ie were Jean and James her siblings?)
regards
Bryan
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Hi Bryan
Pam mentioned Agnes as being daughter of Willam & Anne. She was born 19/09/1790. my ancestor was her sister, Janet Barr born 10/07/1778. Williams mother & father were John Barr & janet Mc Cun. All data has been verified with Scottish Register via Scotlands People. Have electronic copies of cert., if the Agnes Barr is the same one. Do you have a death date for Agnes to try & verify.
All the best
John
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Hi all
I also have Barrs from Paisley. Helen/Ellen Barr who married a William Robertson in 1803 Parents Hugh Barr and mother Mary Templeton who I think was Irish.
Any connection please buzz me
Ann
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Hi all,
Im new to this and am trying to find out more about my family tree, I know the basics through word of mouth and sites like this have confirmed my heritage. But I would really like to start to compile my family tree and Get to know the "story" of my family and where i came from!
Any help with this would be great.
I am a Barr and was born in Dublin, brought up in Kildare and now have settled in Co. Westmeath. My Father is Robert Barr son of Robert Barr.
Kind regards
Graeme Barr
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Hi greame
If your family is from Dublin you may have some dificulty as a lot of the records were destroyed in 1922. General register office in Dublin may help. I f of a Scottish background try www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk. Good luck
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Thanks for that.
I have been told we were Scottish, and came down from Northern Ireland. Now i see people claiming the same family tree with same names but from farms in Donegal? I will try this site and go from there.
Thanks for your help.
Graeme.
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Hi Ann
I would be interested in any information you have about Helen / Ellen Barr. I am also descended from a child of Hugh Barr and Mary Templeton. Rebecca Barr was born about 1783 and married a James Barr (no relation that I know of). I haven't a bith for Helen. Would you know when she was born and died?
Regards
Wendy
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Hi wendy
I don't have her baptism tho I do have rebeccas baptism. I can't work out why Helen's isn;t there.
I do however have her marriage and her death cert. Helen died on 21/9/1860 in Paisley (5 Queen St). Going by age at death she was born about 1787 so younger than Rebecca. There are some odd gaps between the 3 children Hugh and Mary had that are listed on Scotland;s People. I think there were more children. Some perhaps may have died very young hence no baptisms. And of course cos pre 1855 no death records in Paisley.
I also have Hugh Barr & Mary Templeton's marriage banns in 1782 which was in Ochiltree Ayrshire tho Hugh was from Paisley. I'm just about to start unravelling this having spent what seems forever on the Robertsons and hit a bit of a brick wall.
But Helen is my direct line so next task is to try and find out more about her..
If you PM me your email. Happy to share what info I have.
Ann
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Hi Ann
Thank you so much for replying- I never thought I would find any Barr relatives out there as the other side of the family seemed to have died off in Paisley and I wasn't aware of the existence of Helen. Iagree that there should be more children, at least a son John to go with the naming pattern.
Rebecca married James Barr in June 1803. They had 6 children, including my ggg grandfather James who emigrated to Australia in 1849. He had a brother John who emigrated to New Zealand and became somwhat famous there as a poet who wrote in the style of Robert Burns. My father has a book of his poems. The other children, sons William and Hugh, and daughters Mary and Sarah Rebecca remained in Scotland. Mary married the Rev. John Symington but had no children. sarah married James Jamieson Lamb.
Rebecca died 11 June 1839 in Paisley.
I would appreciate any info that you are willing to send.
The best email address is (*)
Regards
Wendy
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To Ann Baker
Hello Ann
I was pleased to read your info re Helen Barr's death date as I am working on the same family in 1851 census living at 33 Castle St Paisley, hoping they are my husband's ancestors. His gggrandparents were William Robertson (weaver) and Elizabeth Grozet who married 30 Jan 1829 in Paisley. Their son Alexander was born c1840 in Paisley and married in 1870. His father William was still living and Elizabeth was deceased. I am hoping William (45) and Alexr (12) shown on the 1851 census are our family.
William (son of William and Helen Barr) 45 married Elisabeth Wylie in 1849 and think this could be his second marriage.
Haven't been able to verify the link as I can't find William's death certificate - would have been between 1871 census and 31 Dec 1875 when their daughter Agnes married.
I would greatly appreciate any info you are willing to give me.
Regards....Rae
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Hi Rae
It's definitely the same family. My William did marry an Elizabeth Wylie (who had previously been married to a James Watt). William is my gtx3 grandfather.
On the 1851 he is with his father and brothers at his parents house. Elizabeth is with her parents with her daughter Janet Watt.
Happy to share what info I have. Please PM me your email address as I can't post images on boards cos of copyright.
Best Wishes
Ann :)
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Rae
PS :) you'll need to make 2 more posts before we can PM.
Ann
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Hi Ann
Thanks for your reply. I'm new to this. I couldn't find William R and Elizabeth Grozet on the 1841 census or William and Helen and family so will be interested to hear from you later.
Regards Rae
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Hi All,
I have Barr relatations. That I would like assistance in. I have Janet Hunter born 1830 Barony Scotland married to William Barr 1855.
They had seven children Jane, Margaret, James, William, Robert, Elizabeth, and John Barr. is someone able to help. I know William was born about 1827. But this is about it. Janet Hunter is my 3rd Great Grand Aunt and I would like to find any information on this side if any one is able to hlep.
Thanks for your assistance.
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Hi Tanya G
Read your posting re William Barr and Janet Hunter but sorry I don't have any info that would help. Our ancestor is Helen Barr who married William Robertson in 1803 and my main info comes from that posted by Ann Baker and Didivot (Wendy). Will let you know if I come across your William Barr in my research.
Best of luck
Rae
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Hello Ann
I have sent you a PM with my email address but have not heard from you. Do you have the details of the death of William Robertson (son of Wm and Helen Barr). I am anxious to see if our family links up. I would really appreciate this information.
Regards....Rae
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Hi Rae
Apologies for not having been back to you! Life a bit hectic at the mo.
William's death date is 9/9/1872. He died at 45 Storie St Paisley - Wife Elizabeth Wylie.
Ann :)
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Hello Ann
Thank you for your reply re William Robertson. I thought if he had been married previously (hopefully to my Elizabeth Grozet) her name would also be shown on Wm's death certificate. Did it give his age.
Regards....Rae
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Hi Rae
This is odd, I didn;t see your reply pop up hmmmm. Just I thought would have a wee look at the thread.
Anyway he was 60 when he died. I have seen certs with Eliz Grozet on when I've been looking and discounted them cos I was looking for Wylies. I am not sure if he married twice or not. Does William Robertson and Helen (Ellen) Barr appear on any cert with Eliz Grozet? (Sorry I can;t remember now. The Robertsons research kkinda leaves me a bit brain numb at times). If so then I'll have opened them on SPs so won;t be hard to back track
Ann :)
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ooops should say I usually take age on death cert with pinch of salt and use as a guide only cos have found some 20 years out before!
Hey ho!
Ann :)
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Rae
Yes if he'd had more than one wife I would have fully expected to have seen both on his death cert but I suppose it all depends on how much the person reporting it knew at the time.
Ann :)
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Just checked his death cert and it was misrecorded as RobINson. Is def him tho cos the parents are right and wife. Who did indeed die after him (she was illierate) so she'd not have known they spelt it wrong.
I have his marriage banns to Eliz Wylie and unusually it gives parents names - hence why I know he's the man. (I was sadly disappointed after this in OPR banns - was first one I;d seen and expected them all to have parents names and they don;t)
Ann :)
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Hello Ann
The age 60 on the death cert floored me for a moment - thinking if William was born in 1812 would make him a bit young to be marrying Elizabeth Grozet on 30 Jan 1829 - he would be only 17. Possible I guess. I have been basing his birthdate c1807 from the dates in 1851and 1861. I have his marriage banns to Eliz Grozet from OPR and of course just the bare details William Robertson and Elizabeth Grozet both of this Parish 3 days booked 9th married 30th by Revd Walter Blair, Paisley.
The only other reference to Elizabeth Grozet I have been able to find is when their daughter Agnes was born on 17 Mar 1830, i.e. apart from her being named as Alexander's mother on his marriage and death certificates. No record of birth for Alexander, born c1840 in Paisley.
Yes I usually check out the Robinsons as Alexander's eldest daughter Helen was in among the Robinsons. That was another point I pinned my hopes on Helen Barr being Alexander's grandma - if his own mother had died when he was young, and Helen Barr reared him, maybe that's why they named their first daughter Helen.
I agree with you that it would be nice if they put the parents' names on the marriage certs. One could only wish.
If I could ask you one more favour, you said you had the 1841 census for William and Helen Robertson and I was wondering if William (35) Agnes (11) and Alexander (1 or 2) showed on it.
Thanks so much...Rae
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Hi Rae
The 1841 is :
William Robertson aged 54 Cotton Handloom Weaver
Helen Robertson aged 43
James Robertson aged 25 Cotton Handloom Weaver
Elizabeth Robertson aged 15 Shawl Weaver
Helen Robertson aged 13 Shawl Weaver
I've seen Elizabeth Grozet pop up ona few recrds I've opened in error on S People. Not sure tho if or how she's connected to my guys. My lot were tho connected with the Gaelic Chruch where Walter Blair was indeed the Minister.
Hope this helps
Ann :)
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Hello Ann
Thanks for the 1841 details. It looks as though William and Helen Barr had a daughter Elizabeth (aged 15) or could she be Barbara in disguise?
I do feel that your William who married Elis Wylie could have been married earlier to Eliz Grozet in 1829.
Ref 1851 census - William (45) and Alexander (12) are the right ages for my lot. I discounted Hugh the first being Alex's dad as he must have died before 1833 for them to have named another son Hugh.
Do you know if James married Jane Knox in 1840. They had a son John born 1845 and also a daughter Mary born 1841.
Another point that set my antennae aquiver - the IGI forms submitted by a member of the LDS church for Hellen Robertson 1826, Jean 1830, Hugh 1833 and my Agnes Robertson (dau of Wm and Eliz Grozet) born 1830 at Ferguslie, Paisley all have the same source info - batch no 702611 and source call no 0538644 as though the same person has been researching the family.
If you come across any references to Elizabeth Grozet on your files it would be wonderful. I have her surname spelt Grosset on Alexander's marriage cert and Grozett on his death cert in 1897. I have spent a lot of time researching her birth and there are at least four possibilities but I can't definitely identify her as yet.
Thanks for your help.....Rae
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Hi Rae
This is now puzzling me.
The LDS records if submitted I would consider but have a huge health warning on but that said
On the 1851 census the family are living at 33 Castle St Paisley
Willian aged 74 (showing as a Chelsea Pensioner former weaver born Cardross Dumbartonshire)* (we'll come back to him in a mo)
Hellen aged 63
William aged 45 (This is my guy and is consistent with the fact Elizabeth Wylie is at her parents house on the 1851 with their kids and a Janet Watt who was child from her first marriage)
James aged 33 Hand Loom Weaver (UNmarried)
Rebecca aged 31 Dressmaker (Married)
Barbara aged 28 a General Servant (Unmarried)
Hellen aged 25 a Winder (Unmarried)
Alex Grandson aged 12
* There is a birth in 1777 in Cardross for this william but I'm not sure yet if he;s the right one
It is enitrely possible that my William did marry twice but proving it is another matter. Do you know when Eliz Grozet died? If pre 1849 then it is entirely possible but I can't find a death record for her and the marriage won't have the parents on.
Hmmmmmmm one to ponder on
Ann :)
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Whooops Wiiliam was 64 on the 1841 - I must get better specs!
Ann :)
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Hello Ann
There are two more grandchildren on the next page of the 1851 -
Robert Crawford aged 10
John Robertson aged 6
Robert was the son of Rebecca Robertson and David Crawford married 8 Feb 1840 at Abbey Paisley. Maybe David had died before the census and Rebecca had reverted back to her maiden name. Robert Crawford was born in 1840 and died 26 Oct 1859 at Paisley aged 19.
I found a John Robertson christened 22 Jun 1845 High Church Paisley parents James Robertson and Jane or Jean Knox who married 6 Dec 1840 at High Church Paisley. Unfortunately there are no details of address or parents on the marriage proclamations. I thought Jane Knox may have died before the census which is why James is shown as single. That is why I thought John aged 6 belongs to James and Alexander aged 12 must belong to William.
I wasn't able to find another census with a father William and son Alex at the right ages which is why I have been concentrating on this family. Of course there could be another son of Wm and Helen Barr we haven't unearthed yet who could be the father of Alexander (12).
I haven't been able to find when Elizabeth Grozet died but know that she was deceased when Alexander married Mary Wallace in 1870.
Regards....Rae
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Hi Rae
Sorry I missed the two boys of the end. My second page had become detached from me first. I knew about the David Crawford marrying Rebecca in 1840 bit. Nothing strange about her having the Robertson name on the census especially if dad was the one giving the details. My dad still uses my maiden name - it's a Scottish thing lol. David tho certainly had died by the 1861 as Rebecca is on there with Janet Watt (Elizabeth Wylie's eldest from her first marriage). She is shown as a widow but can I find her death cert? And no kids at all which is odd.
James could well have been married twice as well. The girl he married in 1851 (Isabella - sometimes shown as Elizabeth- O'Hara) is a lot younger than him.
The thing that bothers me and not sure how going to solve is there is a gap in the kids of William and Helen between about 1809 and 1820. The Robertsons were non conformists which basically means the baptisms aren't on Scotland;s People and a lot are missing from the IGI.
The other bad news is the BMDs are not on the Kirk Session records for the church they were members of - I had this checked by a professional researcher . The only thing I can see now to follow up on are the Paisley Poor records which start in 1839 and hope they claimed Poor Relief and that identifies the missing kids.
I'm not discounting the fact James or William married twice but until it;s proven is still an unanswered question - this family drive ya nuts lol!
Ann :D
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Hi Ann
Must say it is not looking good for me to take my research beyond William Robertson and Elizabeth Grozet.
Have you been able to locate your William (45 on 1851) on the 1841 census? I have searched everywhere but no luck. Found Jean living with Rebecca Crawford at High St Johnstone, but not Barbara. They are an elusive lot.
Can't find my Alexander Robertson on 1841 either and only the one at Castle Street (with a father William) in 1851. My mother-in-law was certain the family all lived in Paisley, and I have the three death certificates for William Robertsons who died between 1870 and 1897 in Renfrewshire and two others from Glasgow from Scotlands People and none of them match up. All quite discouraging.
I always thought the gap between Hugh ch 1809 and James b c1816 was because William (Chelsea pensioner) was away at war. Fits in with the Napoleonic wars.
Thanks for your help Ann. Best wishes.......Rae
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Hi Rae
Researching Robertsons is very frustrating indeed. This lot especially because the were non conform church wise and I know their BMDs are not in the Kirk Sessions - I had a researcher to to Edinburgh for me. Not just them that are missing but all BMDs she reported back. This makes it even harder.
I am going to see what I can find down the Chelsea Pensioner and war route as that may bear some fruit.
Barbara I MAY, stress may, have found . There is a Barbara Robertson who on the 1861 is the right age but is in London as a servant to a GP and his wife who was born in Scotland. It also says she is a widow so am going to follow that one up cos she definitely didn't die in Scotland.
The Jean with Rebecca is Elizabeth Wylie's daughter from her first marrigae - the one that's with her mother and Wylie grandparents on the 1851. Now interestingly Rebecca is shown as a widow on the 1861. David Crawfor is on the 1841 with her and Robert then disappears. Now he could have died pre 1851 but I have found a death cert in 1861 for a David Crawford in Paisley. He'd be about the right age - sadly he hung himself. The niggle I have tho is that this happened 6 months after the census was taken so more digging to do there.
I've not found my William on the 1841 yet which could mean he was married before. Not ruling that one out but not ruling it in til can find more concrete proof.
I know they attended the Canal St church. As it happens my gt aunt goes there. She's not related to the Robertson side as this was mum's mum's side and Auntie Mae is mum's dad's sis BUT she may be able to ask some questions for me. The church may have records she can see.
The other avenue I'm going to look into is the poor records and will be emailing the library later today about them . They didn't start til 1839 but you never know!
Probelm we have here is that there were a lot of Robertsons in Paisley and it feels like they were all called William or James lol.
Will let you know if I turn anything else up
Ann
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Hello Ann
Yes Ann there seems to be a huge number of Robertsons in Paisley, and they never seem to be MY Robertsons! I found eight children for James and Isabella/Elizabeth O'Hara on the IGI. Now I'm doubting James married Jane Knox as they had a Mary and a John and then John names two of his children with Isabella, Mary and John. I can hardly keep sending them to an early demise. Did you find James' death certificate - I have had no luck there.
Interesting you say your Robertsons attended the Canal St Church, as Alexander and Mary lived at 16 Canal Street in 1871. I pore over the maps and it's interesting to see they seemed to live in the same areas over the years, Storie and Maxwellton Street. Alexander died at 23 George Street in 1897.
Thanks again.......Rae
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Hi Rae
I do have James death cert and no mention of any other Mrs than the O'hara lady.
Also have all the kids birth certs bar the first two. First one was a James and second not known. Only reason have these is because the birth cert for the 3rd child was in 1855 (marvellous year for certs) and it says 1 boy living and one dead and this is 3rd child. The first 2 were before they got married. Naughty James cos she'd only have been a kid herself. According to their marriage banns she was 18 when they got married and he was 30.
James died 21/1/1874. On the death cert is says dad John and mum Helen Barr. I am taking this as correct cert because of the fact his wife is correctly recorded and his mum's name is OK. Death was reported by bro in law a James Robertson.
So one of his sisters married a Robertson but which one?
George St is just round corner from Canal St! In fact runs parallel.
I have also found an 1841 entry for a Barbara with also a Jess and an Agnes Robertson. Being 1841 doesn't say if related but they could be so am looking at that. If she is THE Barbara then she was a shawl sewer and lived in Stevenson St. That would fit with other locations where the family were in Paisley in 1841 and would ex[plain why she's not on the 1841 with mum and dad tho is more the south end than the west where they were later.
Interesting re Storie st because the William who is my gt gt grandfather also lived in Storie St which is a wee bit nearer Paisley town centre.
They are sent to try us
Ann :D
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Hi Ann
Thanks for the info re James' death. Shame it doesn't give a first wife's name, now we still don't know who John (6) in 1851 belongs to. Could you tell me what James' occupation is shown as on the cert and his address?
When I was working on his being married to Jean Knox, I obtained their daughter Mary's marriage cert when she married James Wills in 1865. Mary gave her father's occ as 'shawl manufacturer'. She was living at 144 George St and James Wills was living at 63 George Street. Interesting that the bro-in-law is yet another James Robertson. Couldn't you just shake them that they didn't give them an outstanding second name - better still their mother's maiden name. I haven't found any of the sisters married to a Robertson yet. It could be a sister of Isabella O'Hara who married a Robertson.
I have worked on that 1841 census for Barbara. Her father was James Robertson and her mother Agnes Tarbert/Tarber.
Extracted marriage M116434 James Robertson and Agnes Tarbert 4 Jun 1820 East Kilbride Lanark.
Extracted christeneing C116434 Barbara Robertson 3 Jun 1821 East Kilbride Lanark.
LGS member submits -
Barbara Robertson b 29 Apr 1820 ch 20 May 1820 East Kilbride Lanark
Margaret Robertson - same as above (maybe twins)
Agnes Robertson b 6 Jul 1823 ch 13 Jul 1823 East Kilbride Lanark
Best wishes....Rae
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Hi Rae
He was a shawl weaver and his address at death was 7 Bridge St. Bridge St is right next to Paisley Abbey. At that time tho it was all slum housing - long gone now. I have other rellies who lived there - funnily enough O;Haras. Not sure if my other ones and James' Mrs are connected. So far not found anything.
Thanks ever so for checking out that 1841. Can't be our Barbara then :'(. Interesting it does say for her she was born out of county but not her 2 sisters and no Margaret on the census but she could well have left home or died even.
James' 3rd child Mary married an Archibald Russell in 1878 and they had 6 children (well I've found 6 so far).
Like you I am still wondering who those Robertson grandchildren on that 1851 belong to. Will we find out? I do hope so. Won;t be for want of trying :)
Best Wishes
Ann :)
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Rae
Some good news.
I have confimed that William (the Helen Barr one) IS the guy born in 1777 parents William (dee :)p joy! and Elizabeth Ewart). Have found another 5 siblings so looking at them at mo to see if can find any more clues.
Am pleased I have a gtx5 grandpa confirmed
Ann
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Hi Ann
Well done! That's wonderful news - another generation revealed. This is the same one on the IGI that gave only the father's name as William and no mother's name. I have checked the IGI and found the five siblings. There are a few variations on the spelling of the surname Ewart, they don't make it easy do they.
I don't know what happened but I missed seeing the email notification for this post or I'd have answered by return - I am really thrilled.
Ref your previous post, thanks for the details of James' address, I doubt he is the same James married to Jane Knox. Do you think Isabella's parents are John and Mary O'Harra at Cotton Street in 1841 - though the daughter is Anabella aged 7.
Thanks again for the info and happy delving........Rae
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Hi Rae
Funny I'm not getting messages either so am having to remember to check!
Those Oh'hara could be Isabella's parents (She does show up as Elizabeth on some records tho which is a pain).
Her parents were John O;Hara and Mary Sweenie accoprding to the death cert. I've not looked for any of her lot yet tho I will cos I have O'Haras (Daniel O'Hara who married and Elizabeth Wilson who are my gt x 3 grandparents) in my direct line.
Would be funny tho if they did turn out to be related cos the Daniel O'Haras are mum's dad's side and this lot mum's mum's.
I've also got a Che;sea Pensioner lead to look up for William 1777 and his brother James (seems he was in the army too)
Ann :)
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Hi Ann
I thought they may be the O'Hara family because Isabella has named one of the girls Catherine and she had a sister Cathrine.
Good luck with your lead on the Chelsea pensioner. I looked on the national archives and couldn't decide whether William b1777 was the one born in Bunhill served in the 83rd foot regiment 1797 - no discharge date but would be c1828 or the one born Renfrew served in 2nd dragoons 1794-1821. I wonder if your William b1806 was in the army at some time though I couldnt see him at the Paisley barracks in 1841.
Will be interested to hear what you find.
Regards....Rae
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Hello Ann
You have probably found this already but I came across William Robertson and Elizabeth Youart's marriage purely by accident - under Robison -
William Robison married Elizabeth Youart 2 Dec 1774 Parish Inchinnan
County Renfrew GROS Data 566/0010 0164
and another daughter
Elizabeth Ewart Robison Birth 24 Nov 1791 Chr 27 Nov 1791 Kilmacolm, Renfrew, Scotland
IGI extracted birth Batch no C115692
The first Elizabeth must have died.
I have seen the Robison name come up but haven't always checked it so will have to in future.
Rae
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I have a James Barr born, probably anywhere around 1740 to 1760, around Huston, Kilbarchan, Lochwinnoch area. he had a Daughter Jannet Barr born 1775 in Lochwinnoch, He later married a Jannet Lindsay in 1791 in Huston, then had children Robert b.1792, Jean b.1794, Robert b.1796, James b.1799.
Dose anyone have information for a possible connection?