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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Aulus on Monday 19 November 07 15:37 GMT (UK)
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I noticed recently that I'd not got a date of death for my great x3 grandmother Hannah Marsden (b. 1813, Sykes, Bowland and married John Noble 2 Dec 1833 at Whitewell).
Couldn't find it anywhere, but had a brainwave that she might have remarried (as did her daughter, Isabella Noble, my great great grandmother).
Lo and behold Lancashirebmd turned up a marriage at Leyland in 1851 to a John Occleston. Subsequently, I found that on the GRO indexes and have sent for the marriage certificate, just to be sure. Though I am: Hannah and her first husband moved to Leyland c. 1838, where they ran the Railway Bridge Inn.
Having a new surname for Hannah, I then quickly found a likely death Q1, 1881, Preston.
Then I found Hannah & John Occleston on the 1861 census at 48 Mount Street in Preston (RG9/3129; Folio: 99; Page: 30). John is an engine driver, and presumably didn't want to give that up to run a pub instead. Nice dilemna for every big boy: train driver or pub landlord? ;D
Hannah had continued to run the Railway Bridge Inn in Leyland after the death of her first husband, John Noble, 28/4/1849. Presumably John Occleston used to pop in for a pint or several after work and that's how they met.
But the odd thing is that I can't find John Occleston (b. c. 1823, Leyland according to the 1861 census) before his marriage to Hannah. He seems to pop into history on only the two occasions: his marriage and the 1861 census.
Obviously he's really only incidental to my tree, so don't waste too much of your time on him. It'd just be interesting to know a bit more about him.
Can anyone see Hannah and/or John on the 1871 census?
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Hi Aulus,
I think this might be them as boarders at 8 High St, Preston: Ref RG10/4211 Folio 102 page 1
John Eccleston , born 1826 in Leyland, with Ann Eccleston (Hannah?) who is 10 years older, born in "Yorkshire, Sykes with Bolland"
I think we've comiserated before about these pesky enumerators! (takes one to know one...)
If it is your man though, its a bit sad as he's now only a railway porter, not an engine driver :'(
Barbara
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sorry, that should be 9 high St - like I said, takes one to know one ;D
Barbara
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Hi Aulus & Barbara
Looks like John died Q1 1875 Preston Reg district b abt 1823
Found a possible for him in 1851:
1851 census, Preston 10 Ladyman St
HO 107/2266 folio 89 pg 16
James Whittam; head; mar; 50?; Longridge
Alice do; wife; mar; Farrington
John Occleston; step-son; u; 28; railway guard; Leyland
David do; step-son; 26; u; Walton le Dale
Mary do; step-dau; u; 16; Penwortham
Good find Barbara - I was still distracted by Lancashire & didn't think of Yorkshire ;D
Regards
SandraC
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Thanks Barbara - yes - that looks very much like them.
Eccleston's a transcription error by Mr AN Cestry - it's definitely an O, not an E (but an easy mistake to make).
The fact that they're boarding now, rather than having a house to themselves (as on the 1861) would presumably reflect the drop in status and income from engine driver to porter.
He's further to walk to work too. Mount St (1861) is very near the station. High St (if I've found the right one) doesn't really seem to exist any more, but is out near the present-day bus station.
Ah, just seen Sandra's reply. Thanks for the death and the 1851. Guard in 1851. Driver in 1861. Porter in 1871. I wonder what happened!
One of those where you can't help but think there's a story and you wish you knew it ...
Oh, and yes, Sykes is just over the border in the West Riding, and of course Bowland is still pronounced Bolland by the locals. Sykes is right in the middle of the Trough of Bowland and consists of four or five houses today. It was (may well still be for all I know!) in the parish of Slaidburn, but if you read the Whitewell registers, you get the impression that once the Whitewell chapel opened, they much preferred to go there. Understandably when you look at the terrain.
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Thanks for the death and the 1851....
My son's just walked past, read this over my shoulder and said "Do you know how weird that makes you look Mum?"
I've told him we're all Goths.
Barbara
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I've told him we're all Goths
Barbara :o
If my daughter sees that quote I'll be barred from using the PC again ;D
SandraC
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My son's just walked past, read this over my shoulder and said "Do you know how weird that makes you look Mum?"
Give him 30/40 years, and he'll understand ;)
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I suppose it might be a bit unnerving when your mother cheerfully shouts "Yes! I knew it was cholera!" or something like that.
Can't understand Daughter's attitude Sandra - anyone would think she was embarrassed by her rellies ;D
Barbara
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Don't you love it when someone replies to something you posted years ago? :)
I'm not familiar with Rootschat, having just joined to respond to this message, but we seem to be on the same trail. Your 3x great grandmother, Hannah Marsden, is my husband's 2x great grandmother. I'd be happy to make contact and exchange info, if we haven't already elsewhere on the web.
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Hi, I am doing research for a friend and we seem to be on this same course. He is the great grandson of Alice Isherwood - ne Occleston. They married in Manchester in 1886.
Alice was the daughter of David Occleston, who was the younger brother of John in your search. Like his brother he worked for the L N W R in Preston and was an engine driver working up from a fireman. You will see them both together with James and Alice Whittam in the 1851 census referenced earlier in this thread (12 Ladyman St Preston)
This Alice (Whittam) was their mother because she was married to David and John's father (John Occleston) who married her (as Alice Potter) in Penwortham on 26 July 1819. But John died in Leyland on 23 May 1834 and she then remarried to James Whittam on 13 July 1840.
The Preston Chronicle of 13 September 1862 might help answer your question about John's change of status. It reports a fatal accident when he was driving a banking engine pushing a freight train and someone walked across the tracks and died. Though he was not responsible for the death it very likely was highly traumatic.
Hope this helps.
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Hi, Jaycee and Whaledancer,
And huge apologies to whaledancer, as I don't think I've ever replied to you. How extremely rude of me. I must have just missed the notification email that someone had posted a reply in this topic. I'm guessing that your husband is a descendant of Hannah Marsden's daughter, Elizabeth Noble, as - as far as I've found - of Hannah Marsden's children it's only Isabella Noble and Elizabeth Noble who went on to have any children. Unless, as you say, we've not already met. ;)
Jaycee,
Yes, I've got David (born c. 1827, Walton-le-Dale), but haven't pursued him any further.
A few years ago, I had a brief look at their younger sister, Mary Occleston. She married John Curwen Roe 14 May 1855 at Preston St John and had three children: John Curwen Roe (1856), Richard Occleston Roe (1857) and James (1862), but I've not traced them beyond the 1871 census.
I've got Alice (Potter/Occleston/Whittam) as marrying James Whittam at Broughton St John on 19 July 1840. I'll have to try to remember to make a note to recheck the register at Lancashire Records Office sometime.
That newspaper report is a great find. I always forget to check the newspaper collections: once you start looking, there's all sorts of fascinating stuff hidden away there. It's quite something to see John Occleston's own words in his testimony to the inquest.
In the 22 Jan 1853 edition of the Preston Chronicle, there's an advert for an auction of "valuable timber" to be held "at the house of Mr. John Occleston, Bridge Inn, in Leyland, on Monday January 24th, 1853"
I wonder if it's the same John Occleston who appears a few times in the Preston Chronicle accused of passing counterfeit coins?
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Hi again Whaledancer,
I've tried to send you a private message with my email address so we can compare notes, but I'm not sure if you'll be able to access the message as I think you have to have made 3 posts on rootschat before being able to use the private messaging system.
If you don't get the pm, try responding to this a couple of times to bump up your post-count!
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Hi, Thanks for the speedy reply. I don't have full access to the newspapers so have not read the full report just the summary. As such I was reading between the lines of what I could read.
My dating of the Alice Occleston/ James Whittam marriage at St John the Baptist, Broughton as being on 13 (not 19) July 1840 came from the Lancashire OPC records. Double checking these just now they do clearly say 13th - though this does not mean they have accurately transcribed it, of course.
To triple check I have accessed the actual record in the Lancashire Banns and I can see the source of possible confusion.
You could easily read the 3 in the entry as a 9. I think it is a 3 - though - if you look at the preceding marriage (which was on the 13th) and the one after it (which was on the 19th) and compare how the clerk writes both the 3 and 9. Doing that suggests this one is the 13th.
But if you have another source that might suggest the 19th that could be right.
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Oh yes, definitely 13 July now I look at it on Ancestry. Previously I'd only looked at it on microfilm at the Lancashire Records Office, I think before Ancestry copied and cleaned up their films. (That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it!)
I know Ancestry come in for some stick, but they have done a great job at digitising these microfilms and making them so much more readable than the films themselves. If only Ancestry would now do all the parish registers held on microfiche at LRO, as I hate microfiche!
Here's the full text of the Preston Chronicle 13 September 1862, p. 4 col. 5
SHOCKING RAILWAY ACCIDENT
Early on Sunday morning a pointsman in the employ of the North Union Railway Company, named James Norris, who resided at Penwortham, met with his death in a very shocking manner. An inquest was held over the body, on Monday, before Mr. M. Myres. The following evidence, which will explain the nature of the accident, was adduced:- Henry Edge, of Farington, engineman, deposed: On Sunday morning last, about a quarter past two o'clock, I found the body of the deceased near the outside signal of the North Union Railway at Penwortham, on the down line. He was dead. Both his legs were taken off. I did not examine his body. I was walking on the line at the time, off duty. The deceased was in the habit of walking from Preston to Penwortham along the line. He would be on duty at Preston until four o'clock on Saturday afternoon.
Moses Ormerod, pointsman, of Preston, said: I am pointsman at the Ribble Bridge. On Sunday morning last the deceased passed me at twenty minutes to one o'clock. He was on the line going up the "six-foot" from Preston to Penwortham, and was alone. He did not appear to be any worse for drink. He used sometimes to go to Penwortham, and came to his work on the line. The first engine that came down the line after he went by would be about twenty minutes past one o'clock - an empty engine with the tender first. The moon was overcase at the time. The men have been told not to go on the line, but they continue to do so. The deceased would know that he was breaking one of the rules; but it was nearer for him to go home that way. The express train passed about four minutes to two o'clock. The empty engine was what is called a bank engine, and it was used to help the goods train up the incline. John Occleston was the driver of it. There is no public crossing at the place where the deceased was found.
John Occleston, engine driver on the London and North-Western Railway Company's line, said: On Saturday night and Sunday morning I was on the line assisting the goods trains with the bank engine. We left Preston at twelve o'clock on Sunday morning. We had to go from Coppul to Preston. When coming towards Preston we had the tender of the engine first. I felt nothing unusual in passing through Penwortham. We looked out for signals, but we cannot see anything on the line at night time. The distance from the station to where the body was found will be a mile. After the deceased was discovered I examined the wheels of the engine, and found some hair on the safeguard of the tender wheel, which corresponded in colour to that of deceased's. I also found marks of corduroy trousers on the tender wheel next to the safeguard. I did not find any blood either upon the tender or the wheels. It was the wheel next to the "six foot" that I found the hair and marks upon.
The jury returned a verdict of "Accidental death." The deceased, who was thirty-five years of age, has left a widow and five little children.
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Thank you so much for that. I will copy that to David's Great Great Great Nephew whom I told about this today. I know he will be fascinated. There is still a Railway pub in Leyland beside a railway bridge. Not sure if it is the same one. But if it is you can bet he will be heading there for a pint.
Thanks for all the detail about Mary.I had not looked into her yet. Based on the marriage records the Occleston name left the Preston area around the 1880s as I cannot find a later marriage there beyond David Occleston to Sarah Turner in 1881 at St Mary's. Though I have not looked very hard.
I think he and John (David's other child) were the last two Occleston's to marry locally. John seems to have married Margaret Hague in 1878 at St Thomas's. The ages are about right.
Certainly David's third child - Alice - was born in Carlisle, not Preston as the others (though even she was baptised in Preston). As a train driver on the then new main line up toward Scotland Preston and Carlisle were (and, indeed still are) the two major rail centres. So I would imagine they shuttled back and forth a bit.
In 1861 (with Alice just 2) they were back in Preston (at 28 Pedder St) but by 1871 they were now at 9 Charles St in Carlisle with David still driving his trains (he seems to have lived to 1916). His first wife Mary Hodson had died in 1860 and he quickly remarried after the 1861 census (on 5 October) to Margaret Bleasdale (daughter of farmer Thomas Aughton).
They all seem to have been the quick fire remarrying type and the records suggest that your John and my David were close brothers as they seem to have been witnesses at each others various weddings!
David's oldest son, Alice's brother (another John Occleston) was also by 1871 working as a railway fireman at 19. Wonder if he joined the family line as a train driver.
Ancestry has some railway records of the LNWR for the two drivers John and David, by the way, though hard to read and limited in detail.
By 1881 David had left the railways and become an ironmonger. John is elsewhere (not looked for him yet) but the other child David is seemingly assisting his dad in his new business.
Daughter Alice, then 22, has started work as a dressmaker - a profession she kept up after moving to Manchester - somewhere between 1881 and 1886 when she married the already widowed (like everyone in this story!) Henry Isherwood (my friend's great grandfather). He was a handkerchief maker and shirt hemmer so they presumably met professionally first.
By 1891 Alice (now Isherwood) was living in Fallowfield, Manchester and had two of her three children (Henry had 3 from his previous marriage already) and so she was very busy. The two eldest girls from Henry's first marriage seem to have been running her dressmaking business whilst she raised the young ones - one of whom was Clarence Isherwood (b 1889) - my friend's grandfather.
Clarence was to go on to have an eventful war (he survived the horrors of Gallipoli with the Lancashire Fusiliers in 1915).
Alice's husband, Henry, ended up seriously ill by 1911 and in a home of some sort in Cheshire leaving her to look after her 3 growing children (24,22 and 11 then). She died on 19 November 1920 living at 1 Birch Grove in Weaste, Salford. She left £68 13 s and 8d to Clarence via probate.
After the war he became a wood carver.