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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: oldwell on Sunday 18 November 07 14:38 GMT (UK)
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I am unable to find any definite record of Harry via censuses or BMD indexes on the internet apart from an entry in the 1901 census, RG13/2808/92/21, where he is living in Selly Oak with his wife Jane and three sons Harry, Edward and Ernest.
From Ernest's birth certificate I know Jane's former name was Williams and on Ernest's marriage certificate, dated 1916, his father's name is given as Harry Horsfall Kimberley (deceased).
I cannot find any earlier records of Jane either. Has anyone the skill to get further please? If not are there any suggestions as to how I might proceed.
Peter
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Hello Peter
This family are not there in 1891.I've tried variations & wild cards but no luck.
I've also searched for a marriage 1880-90 to Jane but nothing on free BMD.
You may have to search the full indexes & try & cross reference with Jane Williams &
see if you get a match.
Found a Harry Kimberley right age in 1881 with parents David & Hannah(Harrison)
m.Dec.1863/Aston/6D/474
& in 1871 with G/Parents James Harrison/52 & Fanny/50
also David Kimberley with his parents John & Jane(Middleton)m.1820 Aston. in 1851/61.
But without a marriage for Harry you obviously can't be sure.
Let me know if you want the above info.
jim
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How old was Harry in 1901 please?also his p.o.b i cannot access the census other than 1881 however i can access the fullBMD and 1866-1920 is searchable by name as is 1983-2005
i wonder if there is any signifigance of Harrys middle name Horsfall
Jane and the childrens details would be helpful too
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birth:~
KIMBERLEY Gladys mmn. Williams Stoke Upon Trent. 6b 422 Q1 1914
is she connected?
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of course Harry is a pet name for both Harold and Henry have you searched these variants? and Kimberley / Kimberly
we have no proof of this but if his middle name was his mothers maiden name he could have course been registerd under this; Horsfall.
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Hello Both
I've searched Kim* on Ancestry for Harry/Henry forgot about harold but I don't remember seeing one.
I thought of the Horsefall connection as well that's why I traced the mother's maiden names which are Harrison & G/mother's is Middleton :-[
jim
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Harry Kimberley marriages 1866-1920 fullBMD:~
KIMBERLEY Harry Bromsgrove.6c 654a Q2 1898 on same page Mary Caldicott
KIMBERLEY Harry Foleshill.6d 889 Q3 1902 on same page JOhn Mowe, Elizabeth Riley & Mary Jane Sharratt
KIMBERLEY Harry Bethnal Green.1c 314 Q3 1904 on same page Eleanor Bennett Caroline Govey William John Poulter, Marian Packer should be on page 341 marian Parker, in anycase he is not yours he appear in 1881 in bethnal green
KIMBERLEY Harry West Bromwich.6b 1428 Q2 1906
KIMBERLEY Harry Aston.6d 753 Q2 1906
KIMBERLEY Harry spouse Lacey Kings Norton.6c 868 Q2 1912
KIMBERLEY Harry spouse Webb Headington.3a 3040 Q3 1915
KIMBERLEY Harry spouse Thomas Birmingham.6d 754 Q2 1919
KIMBERLEY Harry spouse Green Birmingham.6d 442 Q4 1919
KIMBERLEY Harry Briscoe Dudley.6c 21 Q2 1902
KIMBERLEY Harry E spouse Wallace Coventry.6d 1737 Q3 1915
KIMBERLEY Harry Grimley Solihull.6d 898 Q3 1894
KIMBERLEY Harry Sidney Aston.6d 702 Q4 1905
KIMBERLEY Harry T spouse Davis West Bromwich.6b 1393 Q2 1916
i've not checked the ones which are not striked through
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Hello Toni
Harry was born 1865 & the first child was born 1887ish.
I've searched free BMD 1885-90.
Haven't searched the full indexes for that period though.
Regards jim
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Many thanks for all the ideas coming in so far.
I have searched FreeBMD extensively in a similar manner to Toni. There are several possible births for Harry, but without some census records that might help to give a positive link to his parents they must remain conjecture. The other possibilty is to find a marriage certificate for Harry and Jane. As well as looking for them in FreeBMD I have been through all the marriage index lists from 1883 to 1888, (their first son was born about 1887) looking for a marriage of a Kimb*, Harry, Henry or anything else that looked possible, without success.
Note also that in 1901 Jane claims to be aged 40 and born in Bromsgrove, but there are no appropriate births in Bromsgrove, although there are a few in neighbouring registration districts such as Kings Norton and Stourbridge.
Finally there are no appropriate entries in the IGI that I can find.
The Horsfall link looks hopeful, but there are not many of this name in the records in the area we are searching. Don't forget Harry is believed to have been born in Birmingham, but that could, of course, include Aston or Kings Norton. In fact Selly Oak, where the family are living in 1901 was in the Kings Norton RD.
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The marriages I listed above are the only ones in the FullBMD for a Harry Kimberley 1866-1920
i sahll look for a Harry Horsfall and then variants of his first name and also the Kimberlee/ ly possibilites of his surname.
of course his mother might have not been a Horsfall at all and Jim found Harrison ad Middleton so Horsfall could be a red herring.
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Thanks Toni. However, it's not unknown for records to be missing from the national lists at GRO, I've had it happen before. I suppose I ought to contact Birmingham Records Office to see if it's in their lists.
The Horsfall name may be a red herrring I suppose, especially as it must have been from the memory of one of his relatives, him being dead by the time his son married, but then it's a distinctive name.
I've also tried a few searches in Ancestry with a wildcard, eg Kim*. I often try searches without a surname, but that's difficult with such popular forenames and with little else to distinguish the individuals.
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Harry Kimberley marriages 1866-1920 fullBMD:~
KIMBERLEY Harry Bromsgrove.6c 654a Q2 1898 on same page Mary Caldicott
KIMBERLEY Harry Foleshill.6d 889 Q3 1902 on same page JOhn Mowe, Elizabeth Riley & Mary Jane Sharratt
KIMBERLEY Harry Bethnal Green.1c 314 Q3 1904 on same page Eleanor Bennett Caroline Govey William John Poulter, Marian Packer should be on page 341 marian Parker, in anycase he is not yours he appear in 1881 in bethnal green
KIMBERLEY Harry West Bromwich.6b 1428 Q2 1906 same page minnie louise stone elizabeth sunburk (not come across that surname before! ;D) i seem to be missing a male from this page ???
KIMBERLEY Harry Aston.6d 753 Q2 1906
jesse Barker bella barr kate louisa evans
KIMBERLEY Harry spouse Lacey Kings Norton.6c 868 Q2 1912
KIMBERLEY Harry spouse Webb Headington.3a 3040 Q3 1915
KIMBERLEY Harry spouse Thomas Birmingham.6d 754 Q2 1919
KIMBERLEY Harry spouse Green Birmingham.6d 442 Q4 1919
KIMBERLEY Harry Briscoe Dudley.6c 21 Q2 1902
Samuel Barratt nellie hemming mary overton
KIMBERLEY Harry E spouse Wallace Coventry.6d 1737 Q3 1915
KIMBERLEY Harry Grimley Solihull.6d 898 Q3 1894
KIMBERLEY Harry Sidney Aston.6d 702 Q4 1905
florence beadles albert george lunt cnan anyone see the missing female here ???
KIMBERLEY Harry T spouse Davis West Bromwich.6b 1393 Q2 1916
i've not checked the ones which are not striked through
all checked now, i wonder if one of these marriages are for Harrys son, Harry?
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2 possibilities for Jane
1) she was married before and Williams is her married name.
2) she may have been christened by another name but known as Jane.
There is a Mary Jane Williams ch.1858 in Cofton Hackett just down the road from Bromsgrove.
Also Harry & Jane may not have married at all.
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Thanks Jim, I hadn't noticed the Cofton Hackett possibility.
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he must be there somewhere,
i have not had chance to search for any other mariages today sorry, it is on my things to do list.
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Toni
Don't worry, you've done a lot already and these things take time. Your responses have helped to clear my thoughts, so I'm still searching and have sent for the birth certificate of Harry KIMBERLEY b. Q1 1888 Bromsgrove 6c 237. I'm pretty sure this is the eldest son of Harry KIMBERLEY (senior). It might give more info on the mother, Jane and also help to nail down whereabouts in the Bromsgrove area they were. It seems most likely that Harry and Jane married in Bromsgrove - her birthplace and that of her eldest son.
Peter
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just to let you know i haven't forgotten to look but not got roudn to it yet, if you manage to look under the other names please let me know so i'mnot duplicating.
cheers
Toni
p.s i take it you have checked IGI there are a few Harry Kimberleys and Harry Horsfalls on there but no Harry Horsfall Kimberleys (that i could see)
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Hi Toni
Thanks for your note. Yes I have checked the IGI, and once again there are possibles, but nothing definite to tie them to my Harry. I've also tried FreeBMD for a death cert. for Harry, as he must have died between 1901 and 1916, but again there's no sign of him. I'm beginning to wonder if he used a pseudonym, or perhaps completely changed his surname. It certainly happened with another of my ancestors around the same time.
Peter
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i just checked the full index for Harry Kimberley deaths 1901-1916 in the right age frame but no matches.
there were 2 Harry Horsfall detah which may have matched yours but worng area:~
HORSFALL Harry 41 Hendon.3a 123 Q2 1904
HORSFALL Harry 35 Halifax.9a 230 Q3 1908
i know age is incorrect but age is what the informant beleived the deceased to be.
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Just to help you with process of elimination from the marriages - although you might have it all sorted by now.
"Your" Harry Kimberley is NOT Harry Sidney Kimberley as he was born 1872 to Thomas & Harriet Kimberley. He married Florence Beadles in 1905.
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Thanks Susan
It's always helpful to be able to definitely eliminate someone. However, I have gathered more evidence that he may have actually changed his name to KIMBERLEY when he married/started to live with his wife Jane. The birth cert of the Harry KIMBERLEY (born 1887) who I believe to be their eldest son shows the mother to be Jane KIMBERLEY, domestic servant, and no father's name given.
Does anyone know of a precedent for such a change of name? Perhaps he wanted to hide his true identity.
Peter
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Deaths Sep 1907
Sands Harry Horsfall 44 King's N. 6c 195
(Not to be confused with the Harry Horsfall Sands who marries in Chorlton Lancashire - he is a younger man on the 1901 census in Lancashire and born in America)
1881 census RG11 2940 folio 9
Dale Cross Cottage Bromsgrove Worcestershire
Joseph W. Sands 45 Head Married Coal Merchant Nuneaton Warwickshire
Harry H. Sands 16 Son Birmingham Warwickshire
Herbert J. Sands 15 Son Harborne Staffordshire
Ernest J. Sands 11 Son Birmingham Warwickshire
Arthur L. Sands 8 Son Birmingham Warwickshire
Margaret E. Sands 5 Daughter Bromsgrove Worcestershire
Jane Kimberley 20 Unmarried Domestic Servant
1891 census RG12 2361 folio 73
Arkendall? Road Harborne
Joseph W Sands 55 Head Married Coal Merchant Nuneaton Warwickshire
Anne H Sands 53 Wife Married Birmingham Warwickshire
Harry H Sands 26 Son Artist painter Birmingham Warwickshire
Herbert J Sands 25 Son Coal Merchant's clerk Harborne Staffordshire
Marion P Sands 23 Daughter Clerk in manufacturer's office Birmingham Warwickshire
Katherine A Sands 20 Daughter Governess Birmingham Warwickshire
Esther M Sands 15 Daughter Blackwell Bromsgrove Worcestershire
Arthur E Sands 18 Son Jeweller Birmingham Warwickshire
Ann Wright 29 Cook Domestic Servant Ledbury Worcestershire
1901 census Harry Kimberley was a house painter and decorator.
Williams would appear to be an alias Jane used.
Births Sep 1864
SANDS Harry Horsfall Birmingham 6d 33
Regards
Valda
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1891 census RG12 2356 folio 137
Dawlish Road Northfield Worcestershire
Katherine Kimberely 71 Head Widow Living on own means Bromsgrove Worcestershire
Jane Kimberley 29 Daughter Single Charwoman Bromsgrove Worcestershire
Harry 'Kimberley' and family were living in Northfield on the 1901 census and I believe from another post that Ernest Kimberley was born in Dawlish Road in 1893.
No sign of Harry junior but he could have been in the household and left off the return by intention or mistake. I cannot find a birth registration for Edward to be sure of his precise birthdate - born before the 1891 census or afterwards?
Did all the sons continue on in the surname Kimberley?
Regards
Valda
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Then again there is this birth registration as a possibility
Births Jun 1891
Horsefall Edward Kings N. 6c 467
Census night 1891 was 5th April, right at the beginning of the June registration quarter.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
Thanks for a brilliant bit of sleuthing. All the facts clearly fit together. I had already identified Katherine KIMBERLEY in the 1871 census as the likely mother of Jane. It appears that Jane came from a "dysfunctional" family as both her mother, Katherine and her older sister, Elizabeth seem to have been unmarried mothers!
Interestingly my wife has an unidentified oil painting of a Victorian female relative. It now seems highly likely that this is a painting of Jane by Harry.
What a web of deceit they wove. Your assistance has been quite invaluable
Peter
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Just to confirm the Sands censuses that Harry's full name was Harry Horsfall Sands
1871 census RG10 3095 folio 62
237 Icknield Street West Birmingham
Joseph Watkin Sands 35 Head Married Nuneaton Warwickshire
Anne Hephribah Sands 33 Wife Married Handsworth Staffordshire
Louise Anne Sands 8 Daughter Birmingham Warwickshire
Harry Horsfall Sands 6 Son Birmingham Warwickshire
Herbert Joseph Sands 5 Son Harborne Staffordshire
Marion Parker Sands 3 Daughter Birmingham Warwickshire
Ernest John Sands 1 Son Birmingham Warwickshire
Catherine Alice Sands 5 months Daughter Birmingham Warwickshire
Alice Pheobe Parker 18 Unmarried Wife's sister Birmingham Warwickshire
Jane Ann Sands 19 Unmarried Niece Nuneaton Warwickshire
Regards
Valda
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Harry Horsfall Sands' father's name was actually Joseph Walker Sands not Watkins as written on the 1871 census.
Marriages Jun 1859
Parker Ann Elizabeth Scarborough 9d 447
Parker Ann Hephzibah Scarbro 9d 447
Sands Joseph Walker Scarbro 9d 447
Deaths Mar 1904
Sands Joseph Walker 67 King's N 6c 271
It might well be worth checking to see whether Joseph left a will and if it mentioned his son Harry (if only to disinherit him)!
Deaths Sep 1899
Sands Ann Hephzibah 62 Kings Norton 6c 237
Regards
Valda
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On looking at the painting again, it shows a much older woman. So if it is by Harry, it's more likely Jane's mother (or possibly his own mother) as he died when Jane was only 47.
I'm not sure if all the sons of Harry and Jane retained the Kimberley name. Ernest certainly did, but the family have lost touch with the families of Edward and Harry junior.
Peter
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I only asked because though this marriage occurred in Kings Norton registration district
Marriages Jun 1912
Kimberley Harry Lacey King's N. 6c 868
Lacey Ethel M Kimberley King's N. 6c 868
so did this one which could of course be a complete red herring.
Marriages Jun 1907
SANDS Harry King's N. 6c 820
either
ADAMS Edith King's N. 6c 820
or
BROWN Laura King's N. 6c 820
Regards
Valda
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Joseph Walker Sands' parents - you owe the solution to his mother Ann's surname!
JOHN SANDS
ANN HORSFALL
Marriage: 16 MAY 1820 Nuneaton, Warwick
John was from Sutton Cheney Leicestershire and Ann was from Coventry.
JOSEPH WALKER SANDS
Christening: 15 NOV 1835 Nuneaton, Warwick
Father: JOHN SANDS
Mother: ANN
Regards
Valda
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It appears that Jane came from a "dysfunctional" family as both her mother, Katherine and her older sister, Elizabeth seem to have been unmarried mothers!
Peter
would you call them disfunctional or just before there time! considering the numebr of nmarried mothers there are nowdays.
happy new year
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I entirely agree. I meant to imply they were disfunctional for their era. Hence the inverted commas! In fact, the evidence suggests that the working classes in Victorian times did not have the "high moral values", (for that read hypocrasy) of many of their middle class counterparts.
Thanks for your previous help on this topic.
Best wishes for the New Year
Peter
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My grandfather was Francis Eric Kimberley (father of my father). His father was Harry KIMBERLEY (I don't know if Harry had any other first names) and Harry's wife was Mary Jane née SHARRATT. Francis had two brothers Joseph and Douglas. They lived in Coventry. Harry's father was apparently HAROLD. I do not have family tree details from before the period of Harry & Mary Jane. Anybody who has such info from the same family please e-mail me on
Moderator comment: e-mail address removed to prevent spamming and other abuse. Please use the personal message system to exchange e-mail addresses. Thank you
Regards to all interested parties
Christopher Kimberley
from Africa
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Edward Kimberley married Kate Turrel in 1916 in Kings Norton
i have struggled to find the correct family however years ago i discovered thie follwing information, i cant recall where from
Harry Horfall Sands son of Joseph Walker Sands formed a family with the domestic servant Jane Kimberley who worked for them in the 1880s . Harry assumed the Kimberley surname and the couple had 3 children Harry Edward Horsfall and Ernest John . In 1901 living in Hubert rd Selly Oak
Probate Sands Harry of 203 Upper Hubert Rd died 26/9/1907 estate to Arthur Eustace Sands
Probate Arthur Eustace died 9/11/1942 to Kate Alice Sands spinster
Edward Kimberley lived at 203 Upper Hubert Rd in 1915 according to WW1 service record