RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Kent => Topic started by: Dane Falconer on Saturday 17 November 07 02:04 GMT (UK)
-
I've hit a real stumbling block on one branch of my family tree. I'm trying to trace the parents of one John Edwin Jacob Miller, a brickmaker from West Malling (possibly the village of Burham) and the surname of John's wife Harriet
who is called Harriet Smith in one family source and Harriet Langridge in another! Obviously I'm hoping that the less common name is the right one.
They emigrated to New Zealand in 1874 with the help of the Kent Union. Basically unless I can find out any more information on John Miller's family and his wife's real name I'm stuck. John was born circa 1844 possibly into a brickmaking family . Harriet's parents might have been called James and Mary.
Any help would be great!
-
Hello Dane,
Welcome to Rootschat :)
I've looked at the Parish Registers for Burham from 1840 to 1850 and there are no entries for "Miller", however, I did find this possible marriage on Free BMD:
John Miller
Harriet Langridge
Dec Qtr 1869
Malling Vol 2a Page 720
There are 2 others on the same page - Mary Elizabeth Edwards and Charles Terry, but it's a possibility that these are your folks.
There were no results for a John Milller and Harriet Smith in Kent.
The marriage certificate would give you their ages, occupations and fathers names and occupations.....
Hope this helps a little :)
Karen
-
There is only one John MILLER married to Harriott in the 1871 census living in Kent.
Living at 28 Waterside, Dartford
RG10/885 Folio 28 Page 5
John MILLER aged 26,a labourer ina gunpowder mills, born Dartford
wife Harriott aged 25, working in a paper factory born Dartford
daughter ELiza Ellen aged 1, born Dartford
Ann DAVIS, wife's sister, aged 13, born Dartford
also in the same dwelling but a separate household are
James SMITH aged 30, a waterman, born London
his wife Sophia aged 24, born Christchurch, Surrey
sons George 3 & Thomas 1, born Dartford
John's wife, Harriott, should have the maiden name of DAVIS if this is the correct family.
-
John Miller
Harriet Langridge
Dec Qtr 1869
Malling Vol 2a Page 720
I can't find a better match for the marriage. ???
-
Little Eliza Ellen (1871 census) was baptised Holy Trinity, Dartford 12 Sep 1869 dau of John & Harriet MILLER labourer of Fulwich? Road ..................... no middle names there for John :-\
Dane, from which source(s) have you found John with the middle names of Edwin Jacob?
Casalguidi
-
Just wondering about this possibility in q/e Sep 1869 in Marylebone:
Vol 1A Page 840
LANGRIDGE Harriet
MIDDLEBROOK Charles
SMITH Frances
SMITH John
Charles Middlebrook is in the 1871 census in Marylebone with wife Fanny. So it looks like Harriet Langridge married John Smith. Of course it might not be the same Harriet Langridge but given the known Smith connection this looks like more than coincidence.
-
I'm sorry I cannot help you with your query but you may be able to help me? You mention the Kent Union that helped someone to emigrate. Can you tell me more about it and where any records may be kept? I have an orphaned ancestor who emigrated to NZ at a young age but I cannot find any trace of him since the 1871 census age 10 and wonder if he was helped on his way by some organisation. Many thanks. Barry
-
Hi Barry
It wouldn't have actually been the Kent Union but rather one of a number of Unions that Dane is referring to. The Union workhouse system was set up in 1837 along with local registration districts as used by the registration of births, marriages, deaths. There was a local union (workhouse) to each registration district. The following is a great site for workhouse/union history.
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/
You will see a section about emigration.
Casalguidi :)
-
Thanks to all those who replied :). I really appreciate the effort and interest that's been shown. My feeling at the moment is that the James and Harriet from the Malling marriage entry are the ones I'm looking for as it fits in geographically and timewise with the little information we already have. With regards to the request for information about an ancestor who might have been helped to emigrate to New Zealand I'd like to recommend a book on that very subject available free online. Type in The New Zealand Electronic Text Centre. The title of the book is "The Farthest Promised Land" by Rollo D. Arnold and the text documents the fascinating background of en masse emigration from places like Kent in the !870's. Hope this is of help.
-
I don't know if you have this but there is a Charles MILLER baptised 1871 West Malling with parents John & Harriet http://www.west-malling.co.uk/baptisms.php5 - I can't positively identify them in the 1871 census though :-\
Casalguidi :)
-
:D Thanks so much with the extra information on the baptism record. This fits in with the ship's manifest for when the family emigrated which shows a son named Charles aged two. I tried to see if there was information on the site you mentioned about the other children William and Catherine but no luck.
William was possibly born en route to or in Portsmouth as the ship lists him as only two months old but Catherine Miller (my ancestor) was born in 1865 according to family records so I'm surprised that her records don't seem to be there. I'm wondering if the fact that James and Harriet don't seem to have been married until !869 has something to do with it. To what extent would families go to conceal illegitimacy I wonder. If anyone can find info to confirm the birth/baptism of Catherine Miller to James and Harriet Miller and whether she was in fact born about 1865 (as it claims on her death certificate) or not I would be MOST grateful. This particular branch of the family seems to be very elusive.
-
Hi Dane
Do you have a birthplaces ie. towns/villages for any of them from later certificates perhaps? When/where was Harriett supposedly born? Were there others from the same place travelling with them? What are the sources that list Harriett's various maiden names ie. was she alive at the time or deceased - anything that might help locate them as we were previously concentrating on John and young Charles and didn't realise there were other children too.
Casalguidi :)
-
You're right, I definitely need to give out some more background information so here goes. I don't have any info on the backgrounds of Harriet and John (i.e where were they born etc.) which was why I was finding them so elusive. However this is what I do know: John and Harriet Miller emigrated to New Zealand in 1874 with three children Catherine (10), Charles(2) and William (2 months). The Kent Union, with its executive in Maidstone, had already sponsored the emigration costs of about a thousand labourers and their families. In early 1874 sixteen families from the parish of Burham near Rochester were sent. They were farewelled from the Walnut Tree inn in Burham and set out for Portsmouth. One of these sixteen families (most of whom were unemployed brickmakers) was the Millers. This ties in with the baptism entry for little Charles which lists St Mary's as their parish church and that is the name of Burham's parish church. What I don't know is whether John and Harriet's families were natives of Burham or whether John and Harriet had moved there looking for work. Catherine's daughter could only remember her mother referring to the fact that they came from West Malling. Those are the only facts we know in the family. Any help in filling in some of the gaps would be very welcome :)
-
Hi Dane
Thankyou - every little helps - and a lovely story.
This ties in with the baptism entry for little Charles which lists St Mary's as their parish church and that is the name of Burham's parish church
Burham isn't that far from West Malling but they are not the same places even though the parish church of both is called St Mary see http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/MIs/Location/01.htm
West Malling parish church http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/mllw_c01.htm is where young Charles was baptised.
Still Looking
Casalguidi :)
-
Hi Dane
After much searching (thankyou everyone esp. Barbara ;)), I think we have them:
1871 Back Street, West Malling, Kent
John MILLER head mar 30 ag lab b.Hastings Sussex
Harriett wife 28 flag? cutter b.Barming Kent
Kate dau 7 b.Hastings Sussex
RG10/917 Folio19 page 29
I can't see anything further jumping out at me - perhaps the next step would be to pursue a birth certificate for Charles or the marriage certificate of John and Harriett :-\
Casalguidi :)
-
There are two LANGRIDGE couples in Barming having children Baptised.
This might be of interest:
20th Feb 1842 Harriet daughter of James & Mary Ann.
James was a Labourer.
Plenty of Smiths, of course, but only one Harriet & that was in 1780.
Betty
-
Well done Betty - that looks interesting ;D
1841 Hill House Corner, Barming, Kent
James LANGRIDGE 28 lab b.Kent
Mary 20 b.Kent
Matilda 2 b.Kent
HO107/456 folio 5 page 2
.............................
They are next door to a CROUCH family and I will post them (just in case it's relevant) because I looked for this Matilda later on to see if she had a sister Harriett and found a Matilda later on of the correct age born Barming with a CROUCH connection.
Thomas CROUCH 40 lab b.Kent
Rebecca 40 b.Kent
Jane 75 b.Kent
Casalguidi :)
-
Am wondering if this is Harriett with her mother remarried to a William SAMUELS ???
1851
3 Bunyard's Yard, Maidstone, Kent
William SAMUELS head mar 49 tailor b.Scotland
Mary wife 33 tailor's wife b.Barming Kent
Harriett dau 8 b.Barming
Thomas son 5 b.Barming
John son 3 b.East Farleigh
Charles son (?) months b.Maidstone
HO107/1617 folio 191 page 15
There is a marriage William SAMUEL(S) to Mary Ann LANGRIDGE in the Maidstone area 1845 http://extranet3.kent.gov.uk/sp/rois/marriagesearch.cfm# and http://freebmd.rootsweb.com
1861
William SAMUELS head mar 58 tailor b.Edinburgh Scotland
Mary Ann wife 42 b.Barming
Thomas son 15 b.Barming
John son 12 b.Maidstone
Charles son 10 b.Maidstone
William son 7 b.West Malling
Elizabeth dau 5 b.West Malling
George son 2 b.West Malling
RG9/485 folio 21 page 36
Casalguidi :)
-
There's definitely a CROUCH connection, with a slight variation in spelling.
I saw the name when I was looking for Harriet's Baptism.
21st Apr 1844 James son of James & Mary Ann LANGRIDGE
23rd Dec 1838 Matilda Dau of James & Mary Ann Croutch LANGRIDGE
Betty
-
:D :D :D Thankyou so much everybody who helped gather information on this as it really has given me some completely new areas to explore. I'll start searching out some of the necessary certificates which is probably where I should have started anyway (sorry I'm a bit new to this genealogy lark). Thanks also for clearing up the parish church confusion (even with the web I still find it hard to get useful maps/parish boundaries info from this side of the world and I'm afraid I haven't yet had the pleasure of visiting Kent myself!). Thanks again it's all much appreciated.
-
I started out searching for the parents of an ancestor Harriet Langridge and didn't make much progress although I received a lot of new information about Harriet herself. Through rootschat I have found out that Harriet was born in the village of Barming, Kent and this has led me to a potential breakthrough. The 1841 census for Barming shows that a James and Mary Langridge (the name of Harriet's parents in all the sources we have) were living there with a daughter named Matilda age 2. Is there anyone out there who can help me make the link between this couple and my Harriet? Harriet would have been born about 1843
if our family records are correct which means Matilda (if she survived) would be her older sister. Any help would be appreciated :).
-
Hi Dane
Is there anyone out there who can help me make the link between this couple and my Harriet? Harriet would have been born about 1843
I'm not quite sure what you mean?
There are two LANGRIDGE couples in Barming having children Baptised.
This might be of interest:
20th Feb 1842 Harriet daughter of James & Mary Ann.
James was a Labourer
1851
3 Bunyard's Yard, Maidstone, Kent
William SAMUELS head mar 49 tailor b.Scotland
Mary wife 33 tailor's wife b.Barming Kent
Harriett dau 8 b.Barming
Thomas son 5 b.Barming
John son 3 b.East Farleigh
Charles son (?) months b.Maidstone
HO107/1617 folio 191 page 15
There is a marriage William SAMUEL(S) to Mary Ann LANGRIDGE in the Maidstone area 1845 http://extranet3.kent.gov.uk/sp/rois/marriagesearch.cfm# and http://freebmd.rootsweb.com
What is it that doesn't look right or that you require proof of?
Casalguidi :)
-
Yes, Matilda did survive or at least I'm pretty sure this is her (with her mother's parents)
1861
Little Common .....?, Trottiscliffe, Kent
Thomas CROUTCH head mar 62 groom b.Barming
Rebecca wife 63 b.Yalding
/
Frederick STILL head/lodger? mar 24 ag lab b.Trosley Kent
Matilda wife 22 b.Barming
Ann dau 3 b.Trosley
RG9/486 folio 30 page 11
...........................
1871
Trottiscliffe, Kent
Thomas CROUCH head mar 74 b.Barming
Rebecca wife 75 b.Yalding
Matilda STILL grandau 33 b.Barming
Ann E great grandau 13 b.Trottiscliffe
RG10/919 folio 32 page 12
..........................
1881
10 May Street, Snodland, Kent
William STILL head mar 37 cement lab b.Birling Kent
Ann wife 23 b.Trottiscliffe Kent
Frederick W son 2 b.Snodland
/
Frederick STILL head mar 45 lab b.Trottiscliffe
Matilda wife 47 rag cutter b.Barming
Ann dau 25 b.Trottiscliffe
RG11/900 folio 20 page 34
.......................
Frederick STILL married Matilda CROUCH in the Maidstone registration district December quarter 1857 ref. 2a 669 http://freebmd.rootsweb.com
Casalguidi :)
-
:) :) :) Thanks again to all those who have helped so far. The next step would be to find out more information about Thomas and Rebecca Crouch. In the 1861 census Thomas claims to be 62 and to have been born in Barming (1798-99?). Rebecca claims to be 63 and to have been born in Yalding. Would anyone know if birth or baptism records exist for these parishes that could confirm these claims?
It would be great to get an idea of what Rebecca's maiden name might have been or the names of Thomas's parents (mother's name Jane?).
Also the search for John Miller's family has ground to a halt so does anybody know if church records for Hastings still exist as it appears from his census claim of 1871 that he was born there in about 1840-41. Any trace of him or more importantly his parents would be very welcome.
Thanks again for giving me a whole new branch of the family to explore.
-
Hi Dane
CROUCH Baptisms in Barming:
23rd Aug 1789 Thomas son of Thomas & Jane Crouch
27th Aug 1797 Thomas son of Thomas & Jane Crouch
18th Sep 1800 Thomas (?John) son of Thomas & Jane Crouch (Privately)
Thomas & Jane had seven children baptised in Barming.
It's likely the first Thomas died in infancy, so they called the next son Thomas, he also died so they called the next son Thomas as well, unless there are two couples called Thomas & Jane. I'll see what I can find for marriages.
Betty
-
This looks promising, only one CROUCH marriage in Barming:
22nd Aug 1786 By Banns
Thomas CROUCH Bachelor of Barming
Jane STARTUP Spinster of Barming.
Banns called Jul/Aug 1786
One other CROUCH under Banns for Barming:
Aug 1781
William CROUCH of Barming & Ann GOLDSMITH of West Farleigh
Betty
-
There's quite a few STARTUP Baptisms in Barming, only one Jane:
29th Dec 1863 Jane dau of James & Eliza STARTUP (Labourer/Beershopkeeper/Shoemaker)
I'll see if I can find Rebecca in Yalding, after lunch ;D
Betty
-
There's no sign of a marriage between a Thomas Crouch & a Rebecca, in Barming or Yalding :(
Betty
-
Hi Dane
I can't see anything definite for John MILLER prior to his marriage. This is the nearest I could see with a connection to Hastings :-\
1841
Bail St, Folkestone, Kent
John MILLER 40 lab not born in Kent
Priscilla 40 not born in Kent
George 10 not born in Kent
Sophia 9 not born in Kent
Sarah 8 not born in Kent
Elizabeth 3 not born in Kent
HO107/477 folio 34 page 12
..................................
1851
22 Bohemia Terrace, St Mary Magdalen, Hastings, Sussex
John MILLER head mar 50 lab b.not known
Priscilla wife mar 38 b.not known
George son unm 20 lab b.Crewkern Somerset
Elizabeth dau 12 b.Winchester Hants
John son 9 b.Folkestone Kent
Charles son 4 b.Dover Kent
HO107/1635 folio 601 page 85 and the following page
...........................
1861
Weigton? Villa, (Wells Road?), Lewisham (St Bartholomew, Sydenham), Kent
John MILLER head mar 61 lab b.Hungerford Berkshire
Prissilia wife mar 58 b.Broadwindsor Dorset
Charles son 14 porter b.Dover Kent
RG9/416 folio 77 page 44
........................
The moderator for the Sussex boards here on Rootschat has a great deal of knowledge and resources for Hastings familys so it might be worthwhile to post a further request for information on a possible baptism for Jane MILLER or LANGRIDGE and/or any John MILLER in Hastings (with a link to all the information on this one to avoid duplication of efforts ;))
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,265.0.html
I would think your next step be to purchase the marriage certificate for John MILLER and Harriett LANGRIDGE if you haven't done so already - it should give you names and occupations of their respective fathers.
Casalguidi :)
-
Thanks to all those who have helped out so far :) :) :). The circumstantial evidence is piling up that Mary Langridge was the daughter of Thomas and Rebecca Crouch of Barming and there are obviously records for the baptism of Matilda who was probably her older sister. Would anybody out there be able to provide the final absolute link and find a baptism or birth entry to prove she was indeed a Crouch. It would give a solid context to all the information I have so far. Thanks again!!!
-
Hi Dane
Mary Ann's baptism is on the IGI http://www.familysearch.org
Casalguidi :)
-
Thanks to all who have provided such a treasure-trove of information already. Now that I have so much more background knowledge of Mary Langridge I am becoming increasingly interested in her family the Crouches and Startups of Barming. It would be great to know if there is a marriage entry for Thomas and Rebcca Crouch that might mention Rebecca's surname as I have not been able to track her down at all. I'm assuming they were married before 1818 which was when Mary was born. Another marriage entry that would be useful if it exists is that of Thomas Crouch's grandfather James Startup and his wife Eliza. Again this seems to have taken place in Barming so any more info on the Startups or the background of Eliza would be great.
James Startup is listed as a beer-shop keeper, does anyone know whether someone like that would have to be registered or licensed and whether those kinds of records might still exist to provide maybe some more information.
Also two mysteries have sprung up which I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on. Firstly I have come across a message in a genealogy forum in which someone is requesting information on an ancestor Eliza Startup
who was from Barming and ended up in insane institution. Could this be my Eliza or is there evidence of several branches of the family name Startup in Barming? If it is my Eliza does anyone know if records for this hospiatl in Barming still exist and how accessable they are?
Secondly in the 1871 census Thomas and Rebecca Crouch are listed as living in the village of Trottescliffe and in 1876 there was a murder case in the village involving a child called William Crouch and I am wondering if there was a family connection there. Can anyone shed some light on these events?
Any help appreciated!!
-
I found a Thomas Crouch married Rebecca Baseden 01 May 1817 Maidstone, Kent.
Also James Startup & Ann ???? married 1789 East Barming, Kent.
Nothing else found as yet.
-
Parris, James
James Parris was a twenty seven year old labourer from Offham, he was convicted of the murder of William Crouch, a boy of just six years old, whom he beat to death with an iron bar in a barn at Ryarsh on 11 June. He had committed the crime in a rage after the child's mother had failed to keep an appointment with him. After carrying out the murder he walked to the local police station and confessed. He was convicted and sentenced to hang. The sentence was carried out on the 1st August 1876 in Maidstone by William Marwood.
-
Oakwood Hospital, Maidstone (formerly Kent County Lunatic Asylum, Barming Heath), East Barming, Kent and Maidstone, Kent. 1829-1986 records in Centre for Kentish Studies, County Hall, Maidstone. Closed. To be converted to housing.
-
My ancestor is Christiana Crouch whom married James Lenham in Barming in 1790.
The marriage entry records she is from Yalding.
Hope this helps.
-
This is a particularly interesting thread with regard to the mass emigration information, which I will follow up - thank you very much for the details of where to look.
Strangely enough I have a Miller family emigrating to New Zealand in about 1874, although I don't think connected with yours. James Miller (1821 Middlesex), Mary Ann (Clifton) Miller (1821, Seal, Kent), and two teenage children James G Miller (1858, Seal, Kent) and Mary Ann Miller (1860, Seal, Kent). They went to Invercargill, as I have been able to establish.
But it's fascinating to find out why they might have gone!
very many thanks
-
Hi,
It is with great interest I have read this forum. I was wondering who James Langridge who married Mary Ann Crouch parents were. Reason being I too descend from a Langridge family that emigrated to NZ in 1872. My ancestor was James David Langridge. His parents were David Langridge and Charlotte Bonner. David Langridge was the son of George Langridge and Sarah unknown and was born in Chiddingston, Kent. This is where I am wondering whether a connection lies - George Langridge and Sarah also had a son named James and I am wondering whether this is the James that married Mary Ann Crouch. James birth year 1813, born Chiddingston, Kent.
There was a reply stating that there were 2 Langridge families in Barming. David and Charlotte's children were all born in Barming, as were James and Mary Ann's. Coincidence or part of the same family???
Kymm
-
Hi Kymm
I can tell you that Mary Ann CROUTCH and James LANGRIDGE married in 1839 - I'm pretty sure it was in Barming looking at the code on the Kent Registration Services site http://extranet3.kent.gov.uk/sp/rois/marriagesearch.cfm and the marriage certificate should, hopefully, give name and occupation of James' father. Perhaps somebody already has a copy or has sighted the marriage ???
Casalguidi :)
-
I'm a late comer to this discussion. But this Miller/Langridge family is also my family.
Annie Elizabeth was born 1876 after the family arrived in New Zealand. Annie is my Grandmother.
Regarding John Edwin Jacob Miller - On his Entry of Death Certificate it states that his father is John (occupation: Flour Miller) and mother is Maria (Bartlett).