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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: millymcb on Friday 16 November 07 23:49 GMT (UK)
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Hi all
I was just wondering about men's regimental service numbers during the First War. I know that their numbers changed during their careers when they moved regiments etc but I thought that the numbers they had were unique.
But when I was looking for one of my relatives (John Lovatt Knight) I noticed that his number 240512 is the same as some others also on CWGC. I have his papers from Kew and that is definitely his number (although I have not seen papers for the other men). Is this normal?
KNIGHT, JOHN LOVATT Lance Corporal 240512
14/11/1917
22 Sherwood Foresters (Notts and Derby Regiment)United Kingdom
III. A. 27.PHILOSOPHE BRITISH CEMETERY,
COLE, H C Private 240512 22/07/1918
Unknown
Devonshire Regiment United Kingdom
VII. B. 8.MARFAUX BRITISH CEMETERY
GIDDINGS, CYRIL W. Private 240512
16/08/1916
30 Gloucestershire Regiment United Kingdom
Pier and Face 5 A and 5 B.THIEPVAL MEMORIAL
Milly
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You may find this site of interest.
http://www.hargreave-mawson.demon.co.uk/DCLINos.html
Regards,
Jebber
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Hi Milly
unique numbering for servicemen came in after WW1 (1920) and became an Army Number
To that end in the Great War you could and would end up with lads with the same number in different regiments.(ie a Regimental Number)
If you do a check on the NA Medal Cards by just putting a number in you will see it throws up a list of men with the same service number.
Yes you are correct that the men would probably be issued with a new number when moving Regiments....It was hard enough trying to remember one!
Ady
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My g.uncle signed on in 1906 aged 14 and appears to have had a 4 figure number, but during WWI, he had a different Army number. He didn't change regiments. Would he have changed numbers when he was no longer a boy soldier?
Liz
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I think numbers changed from 4 to 6 digits in 1916 or 17.
I have a few West Ridings 4 digit numbers who were issued a new 6 digit one.
Ady
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Thanks Ady - I didn't realise that they duplicated numbers. How confuising.
And thanks for the site Jebber that's really handy.
Milly
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My g.uncle signed on in 1906 aged 14 and appears to have had a 4 figure number, but during WWI, he had a different Army number. He didn't change regiments. Would he have changed numbers when he was no longer a boy soldier?
Liz
the territorial battalions of most regments were renumbered in 1917 from (usually) a four digit number to a six digit number, these numbers were still regimental and so duplicates within there were still duplicates through out the army
the good news about the changes is that each individual battalion was given a block of numbers to issue so we can trace which battalion the soldier was with at that time
for example ( and i'll use the manchesters as i used to them) a soldier prior to the changes could have 1234 as his number, which really would only tell us he was either a regular or a territorial, a change in 1917 to (for example) 276555, we can look at a table and see that number was allocated to the 7th battalion ;)
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Thanks for all the info. My g.uncle was killed towards the end of 1917, so his number must have been changed sometime before then. At least it explains why he had two numbers, I was beginning to think they were two different people.
When I eventually get to Kew, presumably I will need to quote both numbers to get two lots of army papers.
Liz
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Milly,
The Territorial Force re-numbering is useful for knowing which battalion of the Regiment that a soldier has signed his engagement with (in John Lovat Knight's case, the 5th), however, it does not necessarily determine the battalion that he was serving with. As you can see from the SDGW picture attached, John was serving with the 6th Bn when he was killed.
Please find below the blocks of Regimental numbers allocated to the 4th to the 7th Battalions of the Notts & Derby Regiment, Territorial Force:
200001 to 240000 4th Battalion Notts & Derby Regt
240001 to 265000 5th Battalion Notts & Derby Regt
265001 to 305000 6th Battalion Notts & Derby Regt
305001 to 330000 7th Battalion Notts & Derby Regt
The fact that John has changed battalions would suggest to me that something has happened, either wounded or become sick. On his recovery his Regimental Depot would have sent him back to the front to the Battalion which most needed him. It is likely to be after the battle of Loos, as before then the Territorials were contracted to only serve with their individual battalion of their regiment, and it took and it took an Army Council order, sanctioned from up high, to amend this. It is probably worth looking through the local press as this is full of useful information regarding casualties. You would be lucky to find this in the National Archives, as someone burned nearly all of the casualty records in the 1980s.
Both battalions were in the 46th North Midland Division. This division had a hard time at the battle of Loos, losing 3000 men in 10 minutes. After a tough time at Ypres, it was then in action again as the most northern Division of the British attack on the firsta day of the Battle of the Somme. It attacked at one of the, if not the worst positions, which was against a German fortified village that never fell - Gommecourt. Some of its men are buried in GOMMECOURT WOOD NEW CEMETERY.
Bill MacCormack, has written an excellent book about the 56th (London) Division (the Division in the southern part of the attack on Gommecourt), and has recently submitted his new book about the 46th (North Midland) Division for printing. I am sure it will be both informative and interesting. It may not mention John, but it will certainly mention a lot of the circumstances that he would have found himself in.
There is also a book about the 6th Bn by Clifford Houswey: Men of the High Peak: A History of the 1/6th Battalion the Sherwood Foresters 1914-18.
The 5th Battalion have a War Diary at the National Archives at Kew: WO 95/2695
As do the 6th Battalion: WO 95/2694
Hope this has been of use
Tom McC
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Hi Tom - thanks for all that.
I've been looking at his attestation papers which I was lucky enough to find at Kew. It gives an original number of 2303. But there is no mention of 5th Bn anywhere. All references are to the 6th.
First page -
Territorial Force
(One year's embodied service at home)
Attestation of...
No 2303 John Lovatt Knight Corps 6th BnThe Sherwood Forresters.
No previous military service
No 14 - (Received Notice from Capt ?? of 6th Bn Sherwood Forresters.
Dated Sep 1914.
The Description of Enlistment page also says 6th Bn Sherwood Forresters.
He went to France with the Expeditionary force June 1915
Regarding injuries - you are right in saying he was wounded. We have a photo and he has 3 wound stripes. His records give
(from his military history sheet) Shell Shock June 1917
Also - only half the Casualty sheet remains but I can make out
Wounded in the field 15-11-15 B213 Ex A36
(unreadable) 27/11/15
(unreadable) 8/9/16 01810
(unreadable) 23/8/17 (I think)
(other unreadable entries)
...
17/11/17 Killed in action Field
And papers end...
Enlisted at Bakewell on 1st September 1914
Joined on Enlistment 6th Notts & Derby Regt 2303
Transferred to..(nothing written here)
The papers regarding return of his personal possessions give his new service number of 240512 Lance Cpl John Lovatt Knight of 1/6 Bn Notts & Derby Regt
Does any of that make sense - pose any more questions???????
Thanks for info on the new book - I'll certainly look out for it. And will check out war diaries next time I go to Kew. Someone at the Notts& Derby Museum did send me relevant pages around the death date which may have come from the war diaries (I'll have to go and check). But I didn't have he wound dates when they did it so will certainly check the diaries at Kew for those dates too.
The other thing about him as that he was apparantly some kind of lay preacher. Grandma always said he was killed whilst actually giving a sermon but I think that may just be family myth.
Cheers
Milly ;D
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I am afraid most of the postings have missed the point about numbers. First:- Army numbers did not come in until 1921 so all the numbers used in WW1 were regimental numbers.
Most Regiments started the war with three series of numbers - one for regulars started in 1881 - this series was also used for men who volunteered (the Kitcheners) and those who later were conscriupted.
The second series was for Territorials and each Territorial battalion had its own series starting in 1908.
The third series was for reservists and should have been prefixed by the reserve battalion number - eg 3/2457 but in practice few used the prefix.
In 1917 all the Territorial numbers were replaced by six digit numbers, usually the 4th Battalion(TF) got 200001-239999 and the 5th Battalion TF got 2400001 onwards with the 6th Battalion getting 280001 etc But many regiments used a slightly different system of number.
Large - all-Territorial regiments like the London Regiment used the battalion prefix eg 14/4765, but again many men dropped the prefix.
Also with Territorial units they were divided into three lines for WW1, the 1st line was for men who signed the Imperial Declaration to serve overseas, the second line was for men who didnt sign and served in the UK until conscription came in and the thrd line was a reserve and training line. These were generally treated as one and the same battalion eg 1st/4th, 2nd/4th and 3rd/4th by their Territorial Associations and had a common numbering system but as seperate battalions by the War Office.
In 1919 all men holding Territorial or Reservist numbers had to sign on again if they wanted to remain in the Army and they were given new numbers in the Regular series. This also applied to men rejoining their original regiment after service in the Labour Corps or Machine Gun Corps or who had signed on for the period of the war. Then when that was done they all received a seven digit Army number (except cavalry and officers etc who got lower numbers) which they then retained for the rest of their service regardless of where they served. These are now eight digit numbers.
John
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Thanks John
that's really interesting
Milly :)
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hi all
i have been looking for my ggrand father's war record for some time
i have found it on an-----y
i have some questions on it
he was in the territorial force from 1915 to 1919
1 what is unit 838 a e c labourer
2 it has on it northen (theatre of war ) were ?
3 he was in st Luke's hospital Halifax what was it for (he had shell shock we think) ?
4 there are two numbers on the record (no 5127) (no 32144) and privet
5 he had two medals (victory ) and (British war ) ?
6 what it medical 13
7 the victory medal was awarded for hes services in the heroes in the field what is that
8 it had on the records that he was in the northumberland fusiliers ?
he was living in blaydon on tyne but joined in Lincoln ?
most of his records are hard to read
any help welcomed and thanks
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I think you have put your request on the wrong thread ???