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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Gert on Saturday 10 November 07 09:02 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I have just received my great uncles medal card, which says he enlisted in 1915, a Sapper in the Royal Engineers aged 50
We know he was a Sapper in the Royal Engineers in 1901, have not found what happened to him between 1901 and 1936, but his children were put in a orphanage in the early 1900s, he remarried as a widower in 1936
My question is, would he have to enlist for war service if he was still in the regular army?.
Thank you for any help.
Sylvia
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What was his name Sylvia? And his number from the medal card?
I have the RE medal rolls from the Boer War 1899-1902 which may be worth a look, see if he's there.
The first point to note about the medal cards is that they don't give date of enlistment. I imagine you're thinking of the part that says "date of entry"? This refers to his date of entry in a theatre of war. For example, if he first saw action in France & Flanders then this would refer to the date he set foot in France.
Does it give a theatre of war, either by name or in code?
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Hi Neil,
His name was John William Tomlinson Born 1864 in Derby, corps were R.E. 281 A.T. Co. Reg no. 92891, rank. sapper, It then says date of discharge 29-3-1916 and underneath enlistment 6-7-1915, causes of discharge, a. o. 265717 and underneath , para 2 d and under that is an S.
Further down the card it says, Action taken , List R.E. 1740
We haven`t found a death for his wife nor anything on her since 1901 and this is the first sighting of John between 1901 and 1936, when he was living in back in Derby
Thank you for your help.
Sylvia
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To be honest Sylvia, it'd be easier if you post the card on here so we can look at it. At the moment you're describing what you think you can read, which may or may not be the correct reading :)
You simply have to attach the pdf file you downloaded to a message on here.
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Hi Sylvia
"AO 265" is Army Order 265 and could "717" be "/17", ie Army Order 265 of 1917?
This link to the TNA gives a useful summary of medal index cards - http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/medals.asp. If yours is Design 3 it should confirm that he was awarded a Silver War Badge upon discharge. This was to ensure that he was not presented with a white feather once he was back in civvies. Or is "SWB" written on the card anywhere?
Regarding his service, there was obviously a break in service between the Boer War and WW1. Therefore the papers covering the first period may survive in Kew. These are original documents and are in series WO97. There are no online indexes I am afraid, and you will have to visit or employ a researcher. It should not be expensive as WO97 can be checked in about 20 minutes. If they are there you can taken you own photographs, so take a digital camera if you go yourself.
Ken
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Will try and attach the file, his is the middle one on the left. I do know he had 3 medals, as my mum had them for a while, but i don`t know where they are now.
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Hi Ken,
Thank you for your input, unfortunatly, i live in Australia, so can`t get there myself. I can`t a "SWB" on his card, inless its on the bottom which seems to be missing. It is a design 3 card.
Sylvia
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I do know he had 3 medals, as my mum had them for a while, but i don`t know where they are now.
The three medals would almost certainly be the 1914 (or 1914-15) star, the British war medal and the victory medal
Philip
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Thank you Philip, i do recognise those medals.
Sylvia
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Hi Sylvia
It is a pity you recognise these medals, as the National Archives medal index cards have no record of him receiving any WW1 medals. Some men do have more than one MIC card, so there is an outside chance that there was another for the medals, and it has been lost. But I doubt that. More likely is that he only received the SWB for WW1.
As per the link I sent you, as it is a “Design 3” card the dates are his date of enlistment and discharge for WW1. Any medals he received are probably from his first period of service.
If you do not get a RE and/or SWB expert on this Forum within the next few days I suggest you post the attachment on http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php? You can save a copy by right clicking and using "Save Picture As..."
There you can ask:
= the meaning for discharge of “Para 2d S” under AO 265/17
= what 281 AT company did
= confirmation that “ List RE 1740” is a SWB roll
As there was a break in service he would have had a different number the first time around, if you do get someone to search WO97 for you. They will also need his place and year of birth.
Ken
(http://usera.imagecave.com/km1971/JWT-RE.JPG)
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Thank you Ken, i have had a look around that forum before, but never had the need to join before now.
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Does appear to be just the SWB
Army Order 265/17 paragraph 2d is as follows, relevant part highlighted.
I'd hazard a guess that the "S" is sickness
2. Under the amended conditions the badge will, subject in every case to the approval of the Army Council, be issued only to the individuals specified below, who have served with the military forces subsequent to the 4th August, 1914:
(a) Those who, having served as officers and being still of military age, have retired, resigned or relinquished their commissions:
(i) After service overseas in the armed Forces of the Crown, on account of disablement or ill-health caused otherwise than by misconduct,
(ii) After service at Home, and have been medically examined and finally discharged from liability to further military service under sub-section (5) of Section 1 of the Military Service (Review of Exception) Act, 1917, as permanently and totally disabled, otherwise than from misconduct.
(b.) Those who, having served as soldiers and being still of military age, have been discharged under the conditions set forth at (i) and (ii) in (a).
(c.) Those who, having served as officers and being now over military age, have retired, resigned or relinquished their commissions.
(d) Those who, have served as soldiers and being now over military age, have been discharged otherwise than for misconduct.
(e) Civilians who have served with the Royal Army Medical Corps under a fixed agreement for a period of service, or who have been employed with the army overseas (provided such employment received official sanction), who have resigned their military employment on account of wounds or sickness, and who, if of military age, have received a final discharge under sub-section (5) of section 1 of the said Act.
(f) Nurses and members of Voluntary Aid Detachments who have been discharged on account of old age, wounds, or sickness, such as would render them permanently unfit for further service.
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281 AT Coy= 281 Army Troops Company Royal Engineers.They concentrated on bridge building and water supply to forward troops.
Are you 100% that this is his number and card theres a couple of other John W Tomlinson RE Medal cards.
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Not sure what happened to my post from yesterday, so here goes again.
Oh heck, i have looked at TNA again and found the others, how do i know i have the right one.
We know he was on the 1901 census living with his family in Chatham. He was a Sapper
in the Royal Engineers, He would have been 50 in 1914, which made me think he would have been too old for the war unless he was a regular soldier.
He was back in Derby by 1935, were he had a child with and married his neice in 1936 as a widower and he was a news vender.
Thank you to all that have tried to help with this.
Sylvia
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Hi Sylvia
RE/1740 is a Silver War badge reference (its actually a page number in a SWB volume) With this reference you will be able to see his entry in the SWB list and one thing it will tell you is how old the man was at time of discharge (as well as cause of discharge).
Unless you can get to Kew yourself, best to get a researcher to look up the reference for you.
Regards
Andrew