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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Fern123 on Friday 09 November 07 10:00 GMT (UK)
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Researching hubby's family in NZ have a marriage Richard Disney Lancaster ASTLEY to Emily Hannah FLEMING 1883 - she was reportedly 21 so born around 1862 in Belfast NZ
Richard accidentally drowned 27 Nov 1894, Waiheke NZ, found information in Paperspast about the accident and have just got his death certificate - said issue was 2 males, age 10 years and 4 weeks, 3 females 8,7 & 1 - Eldest male would have been Richard Crampton Astley, middle daughter was Adelaide Emily Astley not sure who the others were at this stage.
Richard D L Astley was buried at Waikumete and Im trying to find what happened to his wife Emily Hannah Fleming. I have found an Emily Hannah Mabel Astley buried also at Waikumete however it doesnt show year of death just says 33 yrs, I phoned the cemetery in NZ and their records dont show any year of burial either. I estimated if that was her and if it is correct she was 21 when married then year of death would be about 1895. NZ BDM registrar searched years 1895 - 1897 but nothing, any suggestions on how I could find a year would be appreciated.
Also on Richards death certificate under cause of death it says Verdict by Jury Accidentally drowned and the informant is a Coroner. I searched the Archway on Archives but couldnt find anything like a coroners report any suggestions where i might look for coroners report or a jury's verdict?
If Emily did die that early im wondering also what happened to the children. Again any advice appreciated
thanks
Fern
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Hi Fern
A couple of things:
Did the death cert state that Richard was “married” or “widower”?
ie. was Emily still alive?
Request an ITM lookup for the 1883 marriage as it sometimes has different/other information to the marriage entry.
These are probable marriages for the 2 children you mentioned:
1910 Folio 0961
Adelaide Emily ASTLEY
James Henry CARRINGTON
1920 Folio 2232
Richard Crampton ASTLEY
Edith DAWES
Can’t see a re-marriage for Emily Hannah ASTLEY
Might be worthwhile getting a marriage printout for Adelaide.
Bren.
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Hi Bren
It says where married and age and to whom so I assume she is alive and as one of the issue was only 4 weeks old she was alive a month before.
Thanks for the ITM tip I will do that. I have got the marriage of Adelaide Emily Astley to Carrington, that is line hubby descends from, and yes also to Richard Crampton Astley marriage. I also looked for a marriage again for Emily Hannah Astley but to no avail. I cant help but feel that this Emily Hannah Mabel Astley buried in Waikumete is something to do with puzzle but unfortunately only thing there is age 33 and no burial year
Regards
Fern
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Hi Fern
I was thinking perhaps she might have died in childbirth?
What about checking Papers past for the last birth and a death notice around the same time?
Where did Adelaide's marriage take place?
Who were the witnesses?
What a shame she was over 21 as the ITM would have shown who gave permission for her to marry.......
Will keep pondering..
Bren.
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Just a thought, why not add Adeliade's marriage to your ITM lookup request....
Bren.
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I will have a look for you Fern, Waikumete is my backyard.
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Oh what a kind offer, Im in Aussie so makes it a bit difficult.. I did phone the Waikumete Cemetery though and like the NZSG Burial CD they didnt have a date of burial either so Im picking its an old grave. The lady I spoke to at Waikumete said she would take a walk up to that part of the cemetery as there was a lot of old gravestones and that she would email me and let me know but I never heard back from her so I dont know if she ever had the time to do that. Richard was drowned accidentally at 42 and left Emily with 5 young children so Im picking there was no money for gravestones, however Richard did come from a very well to do family in the UK maybe they sent $$ but then again maybe thats why he came to NZ maybe he was the Black Sheep lol - I did find a newsclip in Papers Past about the boating accident and it said "The deceased leaves a wife and family in poor circumstances"
Thanks for your offer anyway, there is no rush
Kind regards
Fern
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Hi Fern
Astley Births 1883 - 1894
Year Name(s) Ref. # Qtr District
1883 Mary Ella 3308 Dec Whangarei
1884 Richard Crampton 2309 Sep Auckland
1887 Margaret Constance 3442 Dec Auckland
1889 Mary 1202 Jun Auckland
1890 Willoughby John 2179 Sep Auckland
1891 Gladys Cicely Annie 1116 Jun Auckland
1892 Annie 2239 Sep Auckland
1892 Charles 2239 Sep Auckland
1893 Alice 3318 Dec Auckland
1894 Eric Henry 2230 Sep Auckland
1894 William Philip Sidney 3435 Dec Auckland
Astley Deaths 1883-1910
1889 Mary 1047 Sep Auckland
1892 Annie 1696 Dec Auckland
1892 Charles 1697 Dec Auckland
1892 Willoughby John 20 Mar Auckland
1894 Richard Disney 1814 Dec Auckland
1900 Emily Hannah Isabel 702 Jun Auckland
1904 Cicely 1416 Sep Auckland
1906 Olgah 8 Mar Auckland
1908 Charles 908 Jun Rotorua
1909 Emily Alice 469 Mar Grey
I didn’t find a birth for Adelaide Emily. Was she registered as Margaret Constance??….
If we rule out the Mary Ella, b. Whangarei, then the 3 girls still alive as @ 1894 could be:
Margaret Constance, Gladys Cicely Annie, & Alice
and the 2 boys:
Richard Crampton & William Philip Sidney
the ages/dob don’t fit, but the info on the death cert probably passed through several hands before being recorded.
The 1900 death looks like it is the mother. Its is quite possible that she “increased” her age at marriage so she didn’t have to get consent as a minor.
I couldn’t find a marriage for a Margaret, but there is a marriage for a Constance in 1908 to William John CARRINGTON.
With regards to the Coroners Verdicts, I think you first have to order/check the index to then get the file number for the individual record you require.
Bren.
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Crikey Bren!! you are a champ thanks so much for doing that.. I will send for that death certificate 1900 Emily Hannah Isabel that does look positive. The Willoughby John born 1890 and died 1892 would be one of theirs as thats an old family name. Im confused now about this Margaret Constance..... i had thought that Adelaide had a sister Constance and that the two sisters married two brothers.. i will have to delve into this a bit further me thinks. Adelaide Emily did have a daughter with Constance in the name it was very common in family.
Thanks for the tip on Coroners verdicts.. I couldnt see anything on the archway I will look further
I really appreciate this, will order that Death certificate monday and see how I go!
Regards
Fern
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Hi Bren..
Looked through my records seems maybe Adelaide Emily Astley Birth was not registered as there was a Constance - she married William John Carrington in 1908, witnesses at wedding were his two brothers James Henry & John Harold, Adelaide married James Henry in 1910
Fern
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Hi Fern
Where did Adelaide's marriage take place?
You still haven't said where the marriage took place
Hi Bren..
Looked through my records seems maybe Adelaide Emily Astley Birth was not registered as there was a Constance - she married William John Carrington in 1908, witnesses at wedding were his two brothers James Henry & John Harold, Adelaide married James Henry in 1910
Fern
I take it the parents for Adelaide were Richard & Emily....??
Just a thought, why not add Adeliade's marriage to your ITM lookup request....
Bren.
Perhaps, all the more reason to do this....
Do you know when or what ship Emily FLEMING arrived on?
Or Richard ASTLEY?
It's physically possible that all those births (except Eric Henry) are the children of Richard & Emily....
Some time back I had some basic reasearch done (free) by one of the staff at Archives, but unfortunately I have changed PC since then, so don't know who I contacted.
You could try a general "how do I find" question to here:
info@archives.govt.nz
It may be that they will be able to give you the specific file ref for your Coroners report, but then you will either have to pay them to photocopy it OR post another lookup request once you have this info.....
Bren
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Hi Bren,
Adelaide Emily Astley married James Henry Carrington 9 March 1910 Registry Office Wellington, her parents are listed as Richard Astley & Emily Astley nee Fleming
Im trying to get more information on Richard & Emily life in NZ, I have loads of information way back on Richard but cant seem to get a start on Emily. Emily's parents on her marriage certificate were listed as Joseph Fleming a Sawyer and Emily Fleming nee (not clear) Lovett or maybe Lovell. Emily was born at Belfast NZ. The witnesses at the wedding were Joseph Alexander Fleming of Auckland Engineer who i believe to be Emily's brother, and a Martha Jane Fleming who may possibly be Emilys sister. I found Joseph Alexander Fleming on 1893 Electoral Roll he married a Lilian Reece Clarke in 1885 - ( I think he may have gone by the name Alexander) she divorced him for desertion in 1905) not sure how long you had to have absconded for before you could get divorce for desertion..
No I do not know what ship either Richard or Emily arrived on
Richard & Emily were married 1883 Baptist Chapel Wellesley st Auckland. I have searched lots of passenger lists
???
Regards Fern
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Hi Fern
This may not help you but the Astley Family in West Auckland are into the Tannery Business and still have an interest in it, I used to deal with them, could this be a relation I will try and find the address for you but it is known as Astley Tannery. MAy not be the same family but might be worth a go.
Dyan
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Thanks Dyan, to be perfectly honest Ive got no idea! I really have no idea why Richard Disney Lancaster Astley came out to NZ from England, where his forebears were well established, a couple of his brothers went to Canada etc and ive traced the family way back & got stackloads of info on them but its the NZ stuff that im a bit stuck on. Tonight though i was looking through a NZSG cd on marriages and i stumbled across an Edward D'O Astley marriage around the time Richard would have arrived which makes me wonder if the D'O stands for D'Oyley as if it does it is maybe a cousin or uncle or something as Richards grandmothers maiden name was D'Oyley and it was a name passed down in generations etc, but then I cant find any other sign of him wasnt on 1893 electoral roll and no cemetery records.. maybe he went back and of course it may be a longshot but I just thought maybe Richard had relations here, maybe the Tannery ones you speak of might be them!
Dont go out of your way, but if you stumble across something I would appreciate it
Regards
Fern
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Hi Fern
When I read this in your first posting “..so born around 1862 in Belfast NZ.”, my brain registered “Belfast NI”. sorry… :-[
So I’ve been back to the library to look for a birth for Emily Hannah.
Emily (or Hannah) FLEMING Births 1855 - 1873
Year Name(s) Ref. # District
1857 Emily 185 Christchurch
1867 Emily Catherine Moleneux 247 Drury
1867 Emily Jane 732 Christchurch
The 1867 birth would fit with the age on the burial record at Waikumete and a death in 1900, but not the name…
This family certainly seems to be leading you a merry dance with dates and names…
Bren.
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Hi Bren
You are a sweetie, you really are. Yes the names and dates are giving me the pip, but hey would be boring if everything was plain sailing LOL .. I phoned NZ BDM this morning and ordered that death print out you suggested .. also I found another Hannah Astley died 1946 aged 84 which indicates born 1862 - however thats a long shot but might just be some connection anyway of that vintage, I say its a long shot because on the Archway it said she was a spinster but i thought maybe they made a typo! They take about 10 days to get here so will be waiting impatiently.
Looking at those Births you found .. I would tend to go for the plain Emily .. I will keep looking at various websites something may pop up in meantime, will let you know about certificates when they ariive
thanks so much
Fern
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Hi Fern
It wouldn't be the same without all the frustration and head-banging would it?
Yes I had seen that Hannah ASTLEY, Spinster, probate too.
Just as a matter of interest, how old was Richard when they married in 1883?
Bren.
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Hi Bren..
Richard said on marriage certificate that he was 30 in actual fact he had just turned 34.......... history of compulsive liars you reckon? LOL
Fern
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Fairly typical, esp if she was more than 5 years younger, so while marriage certs are genuinely a great info cert, the ages are always a bit suss.
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Hi Fern
What is it with this couple??......?? It's a wonder you didn't hear me laughing from there.
I was wondering if he was younger than her and therefore she put her age down - then the 1857 birth would fit!
Oh well, guess it will have to be one step at a time and wait until the death printout arrives.
Bren.
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Hey Bren
The death printout arrived this afternoon for Emily Hannah Isabel ASTLEY need FLEMING
This family are starting to drive me round the meth drinking bend mate.
Has to be her but what do you make of this?
Under parents names it says Joseph FLEMING and mother Margaret (funny writing almost looks like Marfuret) FLEMING formally HALL
Now it says - Born in Belfast in NZ 20 years so obviously they are now saying she wasnt born in Belfast NZ but Belfast somewhere else presumably Ireland! ..
AND under the marriage details confirms she was married to Richard ASTLEY but that she was age 17 at time of marriage (not 21 as Marriage certificate said - surprise surprise) will be interesting to see if there is an ITM for sure.
On the Marriage certificate though - it said her mother was Emily FLEMING nee LOVELL or LOVETT so where do you think this Margaret HALL comes from!
Children at time of her death on 30 May 1900 were 2 Males 15 & 5 and 3 Females 13,12 & 6
Ive only just got this so couldnt wait to write and tell you .. i will sit down and digest this and decide what to do next and look at.. ::)
Fern
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Blimey Fern
I'll print it out and read it in the car tomorrow.
I'm off for some zzzzzzzzzz,
Bren.
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Morning Fern
Just off soon, but who was the informant on the Death cert?
I find death certs very useful for ages and sex of off-spring, but can be quite wrong about the earlier details.
Will be back in about 12 hours, so hopefully the ITM will confirm some of the data.
It might turn out that my initial reading of "Belfast, Northern Ireland" will turn out to be correct!!
One step at a time...
Bren.
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Hi Bren
Yes hopefully the ITM will show something, the informant was the Undertaker. Found Emily's father Joseph FLEMING who is listed on here as a Surveyor on the 1893 electoral roll living in Nelson Street Auckland so that was a bonus
Regards
Fern
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Hi Fern
ASTLEY ITMs
1883
Richard Disney Lancaster ASTLEY, Bachelor, Sawyer, 30, Auckland, 4yrs
Emily Hannah FLEMING, Spinster, , 21, Auckland, 2yrs
1910
James Henry CARRINGTON, Bachelor, Carpenter, 23, Upper Hutt, 3 months
Adelaide Emily ASTLEY, Spinster, , 23, Upper Hutt, 2 months
CARRINGTON ITM, 1883
James Henry CARRINGTON, Bachelor, 23, Kaiapoi, 18 months,
Margaret CAMPBELL, Spinster, Weaver, 19, Kaiapoi, 7yrs,
The marriage took place at the bride’s residence Meadow Road, Kaiapoi, Rev Robert McGregor.
William CAMPBELL, father, gave consent
I have lots of theories, but will let you read info first.
Bren.
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thanks so much Bren I really appreciate that
interested in your theories!!..
Notice Margaret Campbell older on ITM than on marriage cert lol..
What you reckon?
???
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Oh .. forgot to tell you ive found Margaret (Maggie) Campbell birth!!.. she was born 27 August 1863 Selkirk Scotland. Father William Campbell mother Catherine Cranston
Fern
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Hi Fern,
I see you are looking into the Astley family in NZ
I am the grandaughter of Alice Astley. Her parents were Richard Disney Astley and Emily Fleming.
Alice was 1 when her father drowned .
How are you related?
Lyn
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Hi again Fern
When Richard Astley drowned he left 2 sons and 3 daughters.
Richard was 10 and Sydney 4 weeks old
Daughters were Adelaide,(Addie), Constance(Margaret) ,and Alice
Emily died just after and Alice and Sydney were put in an orphanage.
Richard and Emily are buried together at Waikumete in Auckland , along with 3 of their other children.
Mary died 11 August 1889 aged 3 months,Annie died 16 November 1892 aged 14 weeks ,and Charles died 19 Nov 1892 also 14 weeks
Alice died in 1968. Sydney died 1958.
What I want to know is more about Sir Richard D'arcy Astley from England . He was their grandfather.
Do you have any other info on him.?
Lyn
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Hello Lyn,
This is my husbands family tree, seems your grandmother and his grandmother were sisters. She was Adelaide Emily Astley b 1887
Yes I have quite a bit of info on the family probably easier if you email me. I will send you my email address in a private message!
Kind Regards
Fern (Marion)
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Hello Fern,
Have you discovered any more about the Hall/Fleming/Lovett/Astley connections? I have information on Hall & Fleming, & also on Hall & Lovett, all in Ireland. However, I am confused about the Lovett connection on the marriage certificate. Perhaps you could send me a PM.
Janos
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Hi Janos
Fern hasn't been active here for a couple of years hopefully she will get notification of your post
Cheers Janette
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Hi Janette,
Thank you for the update. Hopefully, one of the other forum contributors may be able to assist.
Regards,
Janos
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Hello Fern,
Have you discovered any more about the Hall/Fleming/Lovett/Astley connections? I have information on Hall & Fleming, & also on Hall & Lovett, all in Ireland. However, I am confused about the Lovett connection on the marriage certificate. Perhaps you could send me a PM.
Janos
So, do you come down a Hall line??