RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Shadwell on Monday 05 November 07 09:37 GMT (UK)
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Hi there
None of my family have been able to find details of my grandfather's birth or christening in Melbourne despite visits and searches of commonly available records there and in NZ. We believe James GARCIA was born on 13 January 1876 (NZ school admission record, although anytime 1875 to 1878 is possible) in Richmond, Melbourne (Cyclopaedia of NZ) or at least Melbourne (death certificate). His parents were Miguel Paschal GARCIA (sometimes known as John GARCIA, emigrated from London) and Mary Jane GARCIA (nee AMY, emigrated from Jersey, likely of Presbyterian faith).
The Garcia family lived in Richmond (Charlotte St, Rowena Parade, Brougham St) from 1876 to about 1887 (Directories). James’s early education was at Yarra Park State School in Melbourne. The family also had a son named Stanley GARCIA, born on 14 or 16 August 1882 (NZ school record, probably in Melbourne) who we believe was adopted. Possibility, therefore, that James GARCIA was also adopted, which could explain why we are unable to find his birth record. The birth details of James GARCIA are an important link for our family as a GARCIA family reunion looms in January in New Zealand. We would be grateful for any help to find James GARCIA's birth details or other Australian information on this GARCIA family. Kind regards.
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Hi
Had a quick search of the indexes using the mother's name only - no births to Mary Jane AMY in the period you request. There are only births to a Charles John GARCIA with wife Louisa Amelia BUTCHER and to a David GARCIA with wife Rose ISAACS between 1854 and 1874. No other Garcia births on the disc to 1888. I agree with your suggestion that James may have been adopted as was his brother.
I will pm you all the GARCIA registrations on the index to 1888.
Cheers
Cando
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Many thanks Cando
GARCIA is certainly a popular Spanish name, but unusual enough in Australia and New Zealand in the 19th century to make searching quite easy - if the right names are there. The name has been misspelt in Directories as Gracier and Gacia, and no doubt there are other variants.
This family line is a bit of a mystery, especially with the mention of adoptions. But the fact that family oral history had knowledge of Stanley GARCIA being adopted and possibly reverting to his birth name WHITE, while there has never been a suggestion in the family that James GARCIA was adopted might still suggest James is the biological son of Mary and Miguel (John) GARCIA.
Could some birth records at that time have been destroyed? Would Church records provide some help perhaps? Does anyone know if Yarra State School records are available or whether adoption records would have been available at that time in the 1870s/1880s and how I might access them?
The family seems to have been in the wake of the gold rushes - in Otago late 1860s, in Victoria in the 1870/80s and Thames, NZ, in the 1890s, so there might be some material there.
Thanks again for such a quick response.
.
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Hi Shadwell,
As a Richmond person, I wish I could give you concrete helpful findings. However can only offer a few hints about Richmond in general which may have bearing.
There were/are 2 state schools in Richmond with similar names and they are often confused.
One is Yarra Park State school which my own grandfather attended in the 1890's. It is on the corner of Punt Rd and Victoria Pde and was converted to elegant apartments a few years ago.
Here is a picture.
http://www.domain.com.au/Public/PropertyDetails.aspx?adid=5491859
The other is Yarra Primary School in Davison Street Richmond. Here is a picture.
http://www.yarraps.vic.edu.au/aboutUs.html
From the addresses of the homes that the family lived at when in Victoria both schools were a possibilty though neither were really close to home, except when they were in Rowena Pde. Either would be convenient from that street.
Richmond had in those times, a very large Catholic population and St Ignatius Church on the Church Street Hill was a source of great pride and community activity.If they were Catholic the addresses of your family are close to the church, especially Brougham Street.
Here is a picture.
http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/heritage/photodb/imagesearch.pl?proc=detail;barcode_no=rt35886
[Whoops, that's a biggie. might have to come back and shrink it]
No, I don't think you will have much luck with records from Yarra Park. I have tried in regard to my grandfather. You could easily contact Yarra Primary, if in fact that is the school.
The Church records might be a possibility,but I am not sure of the avenue. Someone else may know.
Sue
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Hi Sparrett
I really do appreciate your local knowledge of Richmond and the links to the images you sent. Cando has helped me locate the death certificate of my great-great-grandmother Elizabeth Garcia who died at Brougham St in 1881. She was buried by a Minister Dawe (looks like) of Methodist Free Church and was buried at St Kilda cemetery. Is there a Methodist Free Church in or near Richmond (or was there in 1876-78) where I could locate records of the birth or christening of James GARCIA - 13 January 1876 is the most likely date, so that might also help locate a baby who was adopted near that time, although I'm thinking less now that James was adopted.
Cando has achieved a real breakthrough for our family. Now if we could just find the James GARCIA link.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Kind regards
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Hi Shadwell,,
Sorry, wrong end of the day for me with the biggest horse race of the year being the focal point for many this afternoon....not that I am horsey, but we all get a bit interested in November!!!
I think there is something about a Church of that denom. and will have a look for it tomorrow.
check your P.Messages now as I have sent you something which may be of help with a St Kilda Cem look-up.
Sue
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Hi Shadwell,
I believe the Church you are seeking is the Methodist Church at 314 Church Street, Richmond. It may now be called 'Uniting".
I will pm you a map showing its location. [copyright probs maybe?]You will see that it is very close to Brougham st. and Rowena Pde.
The Richmond Historical Society have in the past been very helpful in my searches, and here is a contact link. These groups of course are not able to do things quickly as they are run by volunteers etc., but I think it would be worth asking where/whether records could be found for the Church. They do seem to have good holdings at their headquarters, including rate books which may be of interest to you. I am not sure whethr there would be a rsearch charge.
http://localhistory.ymrl.org.au/histsocs.htm#rbhs
Sue
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Hi Sue
Local knowledge could be a real help. The Richmond Historical Society has some interesting publications on their site and I have emailed them today. I'm more than happy to pay a research charge. We have so much more information and possible leads now for the Garcia family in Victoria.
They seem to have come out to Victoria about 1860 but I can't find them on the assisted nor unassisted online searches. I'll keep looking though.
You've been an awesome help. :D :D
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Hi Shadwell
Is this of any interest?
Stanley Edward WHITE born Richmond Vic 1883 Reg: 19166
Parents: Father: Unknown Mother: Sarah White
Is he a possiblity for the brother, I note his WW1 army records list him as Stanley Edward GARCIA born St Kilda/Melbourne.
A Sarah White also gave birth to a James WHITE in Melbourne in 1875.
There are indexes at the SLV library on Orphanages & receiving homes. I'll see if I can find something when I go.
Regards
Genni
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Hi Genni
That is amazing :o :o According to Vic BDM Stanley Edward WHITE was born on what looks like 16 August 1883. His mother Sarah WHITE was 21 years and lived at 9 Brougham St, Richmond. The Garcias lived in Brougham St in 1883 (directory in 1885 shows it is 7 Brougham St, right next door). According to NZ school records Stanley GARCIA was born on 18 August 1883. So this will be our Stanley. Thank you.
The question is whether James WHITE is my grandfather James GARCIA. No birth certificate has been located for James GARCIA but various records, including death certificate, state it was Melbourne, and Cyclopaedia of New Zealand cites Richmond. According to Thames High School's (NZ) register of pupils, James was born on 13 January 1876. Vic BDM has James WHITE born on 19 October 1875 to a Sarah WHITE who is 20 years. So with the dates not matching and the mother's age not coinciding with that of Stanley's, it does not look to me like James WHITE is James GARCIA, but I'd be interested in what you think.
Genni, we'd be so grateful if you could turn up something on James GARCIA. You've done so well on Stanley. Thank you so much.
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Hi Shadwell
Glad Stanley appears to be correct.
I'm not sure how adoptions took place in the early days. But I know my grandmother's family advertised her illegitimate daughter in the paper. This was in the 1920's and her daughter was virtually put up for sale!!!!!
The bdm's indexes give 3 James' born in Richmond in 1875 with Father: Unknown. In 1876 there is also 3 born in Melb & nil born in Richmond. One in particular appears to be born early in the Year.
Surname is COOK - mother is Alice. I'll see if I can track him.
Regards
Genni
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Thanks Genni
In 1876 the Garcia family was living in Charlotte St, Richmond. The father of James GARCIA was Miguel Paschal GARCIA and the mother was Mary Jane GARCIA (nee AMY). The grandmother Elizabeth GARCIA (nee Graham) was also likely living there. We'd be very interested in what you can find.
Kind regards
Shadwell
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Hi Shadwell
Did some investigation at the Library on Saturday, but couldn't find anything on James or Stanley in the Children's receiving home.
The only mention of a GARCIA was as follows:-
In the Girls Books for State Children's registers.
GARCIA Jane Frances also known as BOOTH.
On looking at the register entry, it appears
Jane Frances DENNINGS born Melbourne 14th Nov 1874 (birth doesn't appear to be registered) was fostered by Mary J GARCIA of Richmond from the 12th July 1876 for a period of time, she appears to have been fostered by the family until Dec 1881, when she was readmitted to orphanage. She was then fostered by the BOOTH family. She was fostered at least 3 more times after that.
In reading about adoptions, there was no formal process before 1929 and most children were taken in by family or friends.
Regards
Genni
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Hi Genni
Thank you very much for taking time out to research my family. I'm amazed at what you've been able to find. I've just come back from a very short trip to Melbourne during which we visited a gravesite and houses in Richmond lived in by the Garcia family.
Your news about a foster 'daughter' was fascinating. I wonder why one would send a child back to the orphanage after fostering for five years? That doesn't sound like my modern-day family at all, but I guess we do not know what the circumstances were at the time.
The adoption of a brother (Stanley) and a foster child (Jane Frances) is building a picture of a family that did adopt and makes it even more important we find out the birth details of my grandfather James Garcia before our family reunion in January 2008. I wonder if Vic BDM would give me all births for 13 January 1876 or whether someone would kindly lookup Melbourne and/or Richmond births on that date looking for a James or a male born close to Charlotte St, Richmond?
Many thanks once again and kind regards.
Shadwell
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Hi all
I have pm'd Shadwell the results of a search for a James b. Richmond for the year 1876 but I don't know how helpful this will be as James may not have been registered at birth with this name.
Cheers
cando
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Hi Cando and All,
Yes, certainly possible that the boy's name was changed from a birth name of James.
However, just looking at what we know at this stage.
It is most unlikely that James was biological child of the Garcia's
AND
The other 2 children that we know of who were fostered/adopted by the couple kept their full birth given names.
AND
The name James would not appear to be for his adoptive father ....Miguel or John ....as one might think if a name were being selected for a first "son"
Was Mary Jane AMY's father James, Shadwell?
To me it suggests that James was the boy's original given name.
My thoughts anyway.
It should be considered too, that the date recorded as his birth may not be accurate.
January fits in nicely with the beginning of the school year and if his birth had never been registered, being like Stanley's the child of a friend or neighbour , then you could say what suited about birth date, within a few months anyway.
She may have been very busy with the comings and goings of foster and adopted children and having one in school might have suited. ;)
Sue
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Thanks Genni, Sue and Cando
I appreciate you sticking with me on this one. I have a number of relatives in New Zealand and one in London now following this quest and I'm just hoping to crack through this brickwall before the family reunion in January.
There is no James in prior family history - parents Miguel and Mary Jane had fathers Miguel and Francis (Francois) - so what Cando says makes sense to me. So I'm looking for a James born 1875 to 1878 in Melbourne (probably Richmond, close to Charlotte St or perhaps family known through the Methodist Church) to an unmarried mother, father unknown.
I have revisited what I know about James "Garcia's" date of birth and it appears he could have been born between 1875 and 1878. Cyclopaedia of New Zealand would make it 1877 in Richmond, Victoria, marriage details indicate 1877/78 in Richmond, Victoria, and James’s death certificate indicates born between 18 July 1876 and 17 July 1877, but his mother Mary Jane Garcia’s death certificate in 1908 indicates it could be 1875 or even 1882 - two male issue aged 33 years (1875) and 26 (1882). Place of birth on James’s death certificate is stated as Melbourne, Victoria, Australia. Taranaki Daily News of 19 July 1943 stated that he was born at Melbourne. A relative once told me that James’s birthday was 13 January 1878. In Thames High School's (NZ) register of pupils, James was born on 13 January 1876.
I also can't help wondering why Mary Jane Garcia would return a young girl to the orphanage yet keep my grandfather who was around the same age.
I know this all sounds very confusing, but any further help would be gratefully appreciated.
Cando, thanks for the "James" names. Genni, thanks for the library research - which library was that and I wonder if there is a James for my dates in the Boys book?
Kind regards
Shadwell
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Hi again,
As one who works with and knows many very young children, I can suggest a number of reasons why a child may be returned to an orphanage and then subsequently move through a series of fostering arrangements in early life.
Disability mental or physical, abnormal social/emotional behaviours to mention a couple.
Questions
"but his mother Mary Jane Garcia's death certificate in 1908..."
Who was the informant on Mary Jane's death certificate and how "reliable" do you think they are? how close to the situation?
Could you clarify this bit
'A relative once told me..."
What relative and how would they know?
[I just have a feeling that there is a connection between these children.]
I've put this in brackets because it is just speculation :-\
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Hi Sue
The informant for Mary Jane Garcia's certified copy of entry of death is not shown, but they did not know where she was married, nor at what age married, nor the first name of to whom married, - so I would say the informant was not very reliable or not very informed. I doubt it was her son James as she died when he was a few hundred miles away.
I'm not sure who the relative was who told me 13 January 1878. I've been looking into this part-time and spasmodically for thirty years and in the early days did not know the importance of keeping files and references.
I agree there could have been valid reasons such as the ones you suggest for returning the child Jane to the orphanage, but it all sounds a bit sad :'(. Mary Jane's mother-in-law died the year Jane was returned to the orphanage and her husband seems to have died or diappeared about that time, so perhaps circumstances became too difficult.
As to whether the children are connected? James must have been close to the adopted Stanley as he named one of his sons Stanley, but he referred to Stanley as adopted but not himself. You may well be right, but we have no evidence as yet.
Thank you Sue for helping me narrow down the search. Genni found Stanley :D, now surely we could find James and end a longstanding puzzle. Just relaised Genni has been searching at SLV, which I understand is State Library of Victoria, so perhaps there is more there.
Cheers and thanks for your ongoing help :).
Shadwell
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Hi shadwell
Your right, I found the information at the state library of Victoria.
My sister and I are going to the PROV on saturday, i'll have a chat with the lady there, see if she can suggest anything.
Unfortunately, the children's register index I checked is referenced by the Child's surname. I found Jane Frances purely by chance. She was in the alphabetical index under GARCIA & BOOTH but not under her birth name. The Registers themselves are in date order, so not that easy to trace someone.
I'm hoping the PROV has a better index, It would be nice if they had a foster parent index!!!!!!!
Cheers
Genni
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Thanks Genni
I (and my many relatives) look forward to the outcome. Good luck :)
Kind regards
Shadwell
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Hi Genni,
I have been delving into the Le Busque family, and found your posts here.
Margaret Ann Frances Le Busque is my link. She married Charles Ernest Clark, and their daughter Emily Victoria married Randolph Bernard Fogarty (my Father's Brother).
I have made contact with a Catherine Le Busque in the UK who is very interested in tracing
the family. From what she has told me, she has a very good information due to the fact that she obtained it from a Cousin in Australia ... perhaps it was you?
Anyway .. I have added yours and Catherine's info to my own in Family Tree programme.
I use Family Tree Maker, so I can send a GEDCOM to you, or export it to a word file for you, and I would be happy to send it to you for your perusal, and correction.
I live in Queensland, but was born in Victoria. If necessary, is there some way we can make direct contact rather than through the Chat Room ?
Re Anne McKinley .... I obtained a Death Cert. for one Margaret Ann Le Busque nee McKinley in 1908, daughter of Michael McKinley & Jane Gilliband ... all of the details fit ... so it appears that her full name was Margaret Ann.
Hope to hear from you ... I have found all of this very fascinating, and it's the first time I have actually come across a Convict in my albeit very distant past !!
Kind Regards ...
Margo Kennedy
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Hi, Margo. You have Glaister as one of your interests? Could you please let me know more as I'm also chasing Glaister.
Thanks