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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: UncleLarry on Monday 29 October 07 23:17 GMT (UK)

Title: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Monday 29 October 07 23:17 GMT (UK): Could someone familiar with Hastings enlighten me.....I am researching a business that was located at 4 Stratford Place in Hastings, from about 1861 to about 1883/1884 at which time it was moved to 39 White Rock, or so I thought. This evening when "wandering around" the 'Post Office Directory of Sussex 1878', on page 3256 it says.....and I quote "James Foord, 4 Stratford Place, White Rock, Hastings". I am confused, would appreciate if anyone could straighten me out. And while we are at it, should St Leonards be considered "within" Hastings?
Thanks in advance, very much.........from Canada.....Larry Foord
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Tuesday 30 October 07 11:52 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

Welcome to Rootschat and especially the Sussex Forums which we think is the best one here on rootschat - lets hope we can help you in your quest for ancestors.

Yes, Stratford Place is a continuation of White Rock Road up to the junction of Robertson Street. I am pretty sure that by 1881, the street had been renumbered and think that No 4 Stratford Place became No 39 White Rock, - anyway, Stratford Place had dissappeared.

Up to about 1881, Rock & Co were Coachmakers in Stratford Place - very well known business that built carraiges for Queen Victoria, but in the 1881 directory they are at No 40 White Rock Place - White Rock ended at No 43 and then became Robertson Street.

Will search my archives for a map to try and download for you.

And while we are at it, should St Leonards be considered "within" Hastings?

Yes, after they knocked the dividing archway down between St Leonards and Hastings in the middle of the night, (Council workmen demolished the stone secretly overnight in 1895, much to the horror of local residents. All that remains of the arch today is a large piece of granite by the roadside) the two communities joined.

Chris in 1066

NB. Just read in Historic Hastings that "White Rock was formerly called Stratford Place"
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Tuesday 30 October 07 12:00 GMT (UK): Hi again

Found these entries in the trade directories of 1852 - 1858 - probably just before your ancestors moved there

Dressmaker & Milliner.
Mme Victorine Winsor, 4 Stratford place (b. Paris 1803, married to an out-of-business tradesman; 4 daughters)
Isabella Winsor, 4 Stratford place

1862 Post Office Directory
Ford Jas, watchmaker & Jeweller, 4 Stratford Place, White Rock

1866 Post Office Directory
Foord James,Watchmaker, jeweller & Silversmith, 4 Stratford Place, White Rock

1872 Parsons Directory
Foord James, 4 Stratford Place - Watch & Clock Maker

I notice by the time of the 1881 Street Directory - 39 White Rock is still a Gold & Silversmith, but under the name of Sydney Allen.

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Tuesday 30 October 07 12:48 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

Found this picture in my archives - the archway belongs to Rock & Co at No 40 White Rock, therefore the building on its left must be your ancestors shop at No 39.
Straight ahead is Robertson Street and turn to the right is Carlisle parade.

I believe you can just make out a name above the door which does not look like Foorde - anyway, the tram dates the picture to after 1903

Hope that helps

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Tuesday 30 October 07 14:10 GMT (UK): Larry

Guess what - I have just found an advert in one of the old directories from James Foord.

Will try to scan it and attach it to this message

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Tuesday 30 October 07 15:16 GMT (UK): First.....talk about above and beyond the call of duty! I am extremely grateful, and frankly just super excited to get the postcard. Thank you very very much. As to the address change, that solidifies my specualtion, and the card and your comments help me finalize some data. I do have a website for him with a lot of detail and am going to include the photograph (I assume copyright issues have long since expired); this will appear in a few weeks and will post a notice here. If bychance the postcard and advert (it does not appear in the post?) is larger than the attachment here in the forum, could you email them to me at: (e-mail removed to prevent spamming - please send by private message - Global Moderator)

Second...the 1881 entry for Sydney Allen is a bit of a mystery since (to the best of my knowledge the store was active until at least 1888. James died in 1883, and the store continued to by run by his wife and/or son James B Foord. I must do some more digging.
Again my deepest thanks.........Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Tuesday 30 October 07 15:18 GMT (UK): Chris......ooops, the advert scan did come through. I think perhaps since it was a .tif it didn't reproduce in the post, however I was able to click on it and download it. And it is so cool, I am going to include it in the website also. Gosh, life can be so exciting some days!
Thanks again (and again).........Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Tuesday 30 October 07 15:35 GMT (UK): Larry

Glad to be of help to you in your research.

Hey, isnt it great, you can now say on your website that he was watchmaker to the Prince of Wales - wow

Am keeping my eyes open for more info or pictures for you

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Tuesday 30 October 07 16:00 GMT (UK): Larry

Hi Again

I notice from the Burial Registers that he died in Dec 1883 and is interred in Section A of the cemetery -do you know if there is a gravestone.

As I live just across the road from the cemetery, it would not be a problem to go and have a look and take a photograph of it if there was.

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Tuesday 30 October 07 16:34 GMT (UK): I don't know if there is a gravestone or not, I would guess that since he was in business and 'probably' was somewhat affluent, that he might have one. If it's convenient, that is without walking the whole place or whatever, that would be great to have that picture too. Obviously if you run into more adverts or whatever, I would be love to have theml. Also, to forewarn you, as bizarre as this sounds, there is another Foord watchmaker......his name is Alfred George Foord, and he operated from 14 Queens Road, Hastings, from about 1884 to 1917. I just found this out a little while ago and am also working to confirm the little info I have, and to try to see if the two are connected. While Foord (with two Os) is uncommon here (I am in Canada) it is somewhat common in the UK, but primarly in Sussex and Kent (I know I have a direction connection in Kent). However, how common is it that there are two Foords as watchmakers in Hastings in the same time frame? They must be related! And to further blow your mind, my occupation is (retired) watchmaker. Sorry for such more babbling, you just have got me so excited!
Thanks, Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Tuesday 30 October 07 17:24 GMT (UK): Larry

When my wife and I started our family histories back in 1989 we learnt that an ancestor of my wifes was also a watch and clock maker in Burnley, Lancashire by the name of Blakeborough (Richard born 1778 at Pately Bridge in Yorkshire) in the early 1800's and then in Otley / Ilkley in Yorkshire

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,1960.msg1246202.html#msg1246202

Small world isnt it

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Tuesday 30 October 07 18:49 GMT (UK): Small indeed. If your genealogy pursuits go back to 1989, as do mine, you will remember the pre-internet days. Mailing letters etc, boy how things have changed! And for the better I would say, although some might disagree. Regardless Chris, you've made my day!
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Wednesday 31 October 07 16:36 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

Went down town today to take some pictures of 39 white Rock place - i have quite a bit of news for you concerning the building - but got to take my youngest daughter to St Johns Ambulance cadets and my eldest to football training as she plays for Hastings Borough Ladies Football Team - so will not be back on till later this evening

See you then

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Wednesday 31 October 07 18:43 GMT (UK): Wow, can hardly wait Chris. The bad news is that I am out of town until Saturday, but will be waiting with baited breath! And again, what can say......thanks just seems so insignificant!
Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Wednesday 31 October 07 21:06 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

As I said earlier I went down town today to see what is happening to No 39.

As you can see from the picture No 38, 39, 40 etc are being coverted into high class flats; but as parts of the buildings are listed, they can only do so much alterations.

I got talking to the foreman on the site and went and had a look inside No 40, but 38 and 39 were unsafe for me to enter - but the foreman promised to let me in, look around and take photographs in the very near future.
So more than likely I will be able to get inside the building that your ancestors lived in- but I dont suppose the interior will bear any resemblance of what it was like in the 1800's

So keep an eye on this space

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Saturday 03 November 07 18:17 GMT (UK): Hi Chris:
Now that is pretty cool, imagine being able to look at the building that 150 years ago was a shop that (probably) was one my ancestors. An inside picture, ableit different, would also be cool. I do appreicate it Chris, very much. Again thanks doesn't seem like enough. Perhaps one of these days (or years) I will actually get to the UK and I'll buy you a beer, or two, or.....
Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Sunday 04 November 07 00:58 GMT (UK): Hi again

I have had an e-mail from Bob the foreman (he is very interested in Local History) and we have made arrangements that he will show me around the place on Thursday next the 8th November.

Getting quite excited at the thought of looking around and taking lots of pictures.

Some of the architectual features especially the ceilings are listed, so they just cant touch them, just cover them up - who knows when anyone will ever see them again; but my little camera will have recorded them.

Great in it

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Sunday 04 November 07 19:42 GMT (UK): Wonderful, be looking forward to it. And it is so nice that preservation is a key word in that area!
Thanks much, Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Sunday 04 November 07 21:05 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

Found this picture taken in c1905 amongst my archives - it clearly shows which building is the jewellers by the wording on the sunblind and above the windows upon the wall.

In conversation with Bob the other day he said that the building with the Archs i.e the Coach Works,was in fact Number 41 and therefore the building we thought was your ancestors was no 40 - I think this picture confirms it dont you.

But on thursday he is taking me in No 38,39 and 40, so will be able to pictures of all three wont I

Sorry about this slight mix up, but glad we have got it sorted out before Thursday

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Sunday 04 November 07 23:26 GMT (UK): Interesting, that it was a jewelers after James Foord closed down. I hate to ask more favors on top of everything else you are doing, but can you make out, or find out, the name on the blind "...atterbury". I will try also to do some more digging. One other point I want to confirm, is it correct that houses are numbered consecutively? Here in Canada, one side of the street is even, the other is odd. Thus, next door to #40 is #38, and next to #41 is #39. Regardless, I think you have it nailed down, and we will wait for the pictures on Thursday. And thanks for this one, I am going to add it to my webpage!
Thanks,Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Sunday 04 November 07 23:39 GMT (UK): One other comment that might help out......I have a picture that I found somewhere, showing a similar view of White Rock but "facing" the other direction. The arched building has a sign that says "White and Norton" in "bronze" letters on the arch, and on the side of the building it says "White and Norton, Drapers". The next building to its left, which we originally thought was #39, has a straght horizontal sign that I can't read. To the left of that, the same sunblind, but I can't read the writing. However, at the third floor level (interestingly this building is only four stories, or three and an attic, compared to four or five plus for most others) the sign reads "Joseph Atterbury"..I think. And, to the right of White and Norton is Judge's Photo Store, and very clearly on the front it says 42 White Rock. Between the two of us Chris, we would make good detectives. I am attaching a copy of it and hope it helps.........Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Tuesday 06 November 07 12:43 GMT (UK): Think I have some more of this figured out Chris.......according to a note I got from the Hastings Library about five years ago 1888 was the last year for the Foord store. And according to the Kelly's Directories (spurned on by your original comment) effective 1890 the store was run by Sydney William Allen, and then in both 1905 and 1911 by John Atterbury. And, since we can read that in the sign above the store, that definitely is #39. Do you agree?
Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Tuesday 06 November 07 13:07 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

Sorry I wasnt on last night, Fireworks, Bonfire, Children and all that.

You were asking about the numbering - usually, yes, it even numbers on one side and odd numbers on the other - BUT; being as this is the seafron there is nothing but water on the other side. Get my drift?

Yes, got to agree with all your working out - we now have confirmation that this is definitely No 39 with the shop blinds bearing the watchmaker, jewellers name - I wonder if the Foords had a similar sun blind.

I think on the latest picture that you attached it shows the prince of wales crest (3 feathers) above the window - did you spot them?

Chris
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Tuesday 06 November 07 13:18 GMT (UK): Larry

Prior to 1828 the piece of land that was in front and to the left of your ancestors shop was a rope walk - but by 1828 it had over 1000 squatters living on it with all sorts of piggeries, slaughter houses, glue works, etc. - but no one was paying any rent to live there. In 1828 the crown seized the land and gave everyone 7 years to get off it - and by Christmas 1835 people moved with their houses literally on their backs to other parts of Hastings and St Leonards. Some took up residence and built their houses in gaps just across the road - now you can see why some houses are very small and dont really fit in with the scheme of things.

To read the full story, see my web site and Robetson Street

Chris in Hastings
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Wednesday 07 November 07 00:25 GMT (UK): Hi Chris:
Not sure I get the significance of the Prince of Wales crest??? Anyhow, OK on the street lettering, and we concur that we have it figured out correctly. That is cool. I too wonder if the James had a sunblind; given the popularity of them it seems like it might have been nearly a necessity. But what is really cool is the history you have on Robertson St etc, my compliments on your research. I find this stuff fascinating, and want to try to work some of it into my website on the two watchmakers. Without people caring about the past it will just evaporate into oblivian, and be gone forever. You have my compliments!
Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Wednesday 07 November 07 08:55 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

Not sure I get the significance of the Prince of Wales crest???

If you supplied goods to Royalty on a regular basis and you met certain criteria, you were allowed to say "By appointment to Her Royal Highness Queen Victoria" or "Prince of Wales " in your advertizing and display the Royal crest on the outside of the building and on your stationary etc. Rock & Co,s carraige works show Queen Victorias Coat of Arms on the outside of No 41 and we know from the advert placed in the Street Directory that Foord was serving the Prince of Wales whose insignia is 3 feathers.

I really enjoyed doing that research on Robertson Street and my paper was instrumental in getting me my Local History Certicate from Sussex University - it is still ongoing and I am adding to my knowledge more and more.

Incidentally I spotted on the web when I was browsing the other night a web site called "Uncle Larrys Clockmakers page" or some very similar name - does it have any connection by chance?

Chris in Hastings
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Wednesday 07 November 07 13:12 GMT (UK): I had run into that comment "by appointment........" before and now I know what it means. There is another point here that might expand our knowledge base. Many times, and I mean many times, I have run into this termonology or something very similar to it, a bit with clocks but primarily with watches. Since I had seen it so many times I thought it was somewhat of a misuse of the phrase. Perhaps not so. Or there was a lot of royalty back in those days ;)
Similar to yourself, but nowheres of the depth, I have done a lot of local research on the area where on my father's side my early immigrants took up farming near Niagara, and on my mother's side where the very early immigrants to Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island also took up farming. Both sides have produced some interesting tidbits of history, and over the years I have been able to offer some insight into the "times" to other researchers. So I know the joy you get from doing this.
And yes, that guy Uncle Larry is me. We are semi retired but still run an internet business selling watchmaker's tools. And if you are familar with the Antiques Road Show, that is the Canadian version, you can see me there on ocassion as an appraiser. My priorities these days have changed though, we do little actual watchwork anymore, prefer to travel a fair bit, enjoy my grandchidren, pursue ham radio, and yesterday I bought myself a new motorcyle. LIfe does have its rewards for us old guys who worked hard all their lives!
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Thursday 08 November 07 20:32 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

Well, I went down to Stratford place this afternoon, but despite me sending Bob the foreman an e-mail last night, he had forgoten that I was going down and was very embarrassed that he had a meeting to go to.
Although I could not go anywhere else in the building, he did say I could wander around the ground floor of No 40 but was unable to get into No 39 - but Bob said that if I go down nest wednesday, he will take me around.

I managed to take this picture of No 39 from the back - (the little building)

Sorry mate, but it is a bit out of my hands at the moment

Chris
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Friday 09 November 07 12:43 GMT (UK): That's really not a bad thing Chris, in fact the rear of the building actually gives a rather effective image of what it would have looked like back then. I do realize of course changes have taken place, but it does offer a window (wow, what a pun) into where they lived (over the store) and I'm gald to add it to my archives. Whatever you get is a bonus, I'm sure that these guys have a lot of things to do during any given workday, and their priority is hardly genealogy guys chasing down 150 year old history. And of course I do very much appreciate it!
Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Saturday 10 November 07 12:37 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

Just been doing some thinking (yes, I did have a lie down afterwards) whilst looking at the pictures of the rear of the houses - If you was a jeweller/watchmaker in the 1800's when there was no electricity and you had to rely on candles or paraffin lamps - you would want as much natural light as possible to enable you to do your work, hence the very big windows at the top of the building.
This follows on from my own ancestral research where my ancestors were silk weavers and again had large windows to the upstairs of their houses in Macclesfield.
Looking at this picture you can really see how a small building was wedged inbetween larger ones. The very big one on the right is Palace Chambers used to be called Seaside Hotel and obviously the buildings on the left are Rock & co's Carriage Works
As a matter of interest, have you followed James backwards and got his parents, and found out how he aquired his watchmakers skills?

Chris in Hastings
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Saturday 10 November 07 13:23 GMT (UK): Good morning Chris...boy do you have an active mind! Your point is absolutely valid, and I would never have thought about it. Being a watchmaker myself I do certainly know the value of good lighting. This would "enchance" the fact that even after James departed the store it remained a jewelery (and watch, and precious metal) operation for another thirty years, that I know of.
Although the website will be done soon (I might actually put it up sooner than later because the details never end), I have James' son who worked the store with his father, and after, plus I have his father, also named James. According the James' marriage certificate his father was a tailor. I do not know where James got his skills, I am quite sure he would have had to apprentice somewhere. However, I can't find James or his father in the 1841 census, so we are still digging.

And we also have Alfred George Foord another watchmaker who as of 1881 was a "jobber" and then had a store at 14 Queens Road from 1884 to 1917. Again, to date I can't nail down Alfred's parentage, and therefore can't tie the families together yet. But, it is such a bizarre surname coincidence that there must be some connection. The overall objective, besides an obvious horological interest (my father was also a watchmaker!), is to try to tie my known ancestors from Maidstone Kent to the Sussex Foord branch, but again I have issues here since I can't get back much earlier than 1850 or so on this side.

But no denying, we are having fun despite all the frustration!
Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Saturday 10 November 07 15:38 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

Thanks for that information, I will try and do a bit of searching from this end.
I had been looking through the hastings baptisms (census all say he was born in Hastings) and I found a James baptized 4th Feb 1829, son of James & Jane - Fisherman. That all fits but for the occupation of Fisherman when it should be Tailor. ??? Its a bit of a jump grom Fisherman to Tailor.
The only other James that could fit was baptized on the 3rd May 1832 the son of James & Mary - Butcher.
There are no Foord / Foorde entries for a James. :'(

By e-mail today I received the following

I have just been looking in Rootschat and followed the chat about the area around Palace Chambers. I found it very interesting, especially as his name is Foord.

As you know my Chapman family were resident on The America Ground before migrating to North Street, complete with the building, but did you know this Charles Chapman was married to Ruth Foord? Her sisters Barbara and Phoebe were also married to Chapmans and they had a brother James. Coincidence? The family came originally from Ashburnham.

I wonder if this could be the same Foord family.

Food for thought perhaps as we can not find him in Hastings.
Incidentally Chapman was the local milkman who also moved his house on his back and rebuilt it in North Street, St Leonards Picture below shows Charles Chapman and his son Charles - both early milkmen in St Leonards. He married Ruth Foord of Ashburnham in 1834, around the time the dairy was established in North Street. Edmund Chapman's brother James was a Sailor! He died at sea at Rhodes and is buried there. He was married to Barbara Foord, sister of Ruth Foord who married Charles. Another sister, Phoebe Foord, married their cousin Edward.

Do you have any other info on James the father or any other members of his family - who were the witnesses on the marriage certificate, what date did they get married and where, and did it state where James was living at the time of marriage as he married a girl that was born in Lincolnshire ?

All questions and very few answers at the moment I am afraid

Chris in Hastings
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Saturday 10 November 07 17:25 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

Been looking at the early marriages, this one fits all of our known information

Location: Hastings All Saints, East Sussex, Date: 31 Dec 1827:
Groom: James FOORD
Bride: Jane COLBRAN

The only other James in Hastings getting married is back in 1789
Hastings St. Clement, East Sussex, Date: 7 Sep 1789:
James FOORD & Ann RUSSELL, St.Mary in the Castle

Any thoughts on the above

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: turenne on Saturday 10 November 07 18:22 GMT (UK): Larry,

As a matter of interest, are you by any chance related to Bert Foord the BBC presenter and weatherman?

Richard Lichten
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Saturday 10 November 07 21:37 GMT (UK): First, Chris........stop the presses! You did it! You have the right one, I am 99.9% sure. It is long and complicated but I had all along suspected that James Foord who married Jane Colbran was the right one; and that he died prior to the 1841 census (or took off)! Again it is complex.....but......I have been away all day, just checked my mail, must go back out again, and am away tomorrow. It is unlikely I will get to this until Monday. But if only you knew how excited I am (you probably do, you've been here before), and how grateful I am! Just as soon as I can get to it I will, and will confirm here in the forum. My gosh, I wish I could find another way of saying "thanks"!
And Richard, thanks for writing. I don't know of any connection, if there is it would be very very distant. Is he handsome and good looking like me? Just kidding, thanks for your interest.
Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Saturday 10 November 07 22:35 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

Looking on the 1841 Census we do have
Jane Ford aged 30 born in Sussex and
James Ford aged 13 born in Sussex
both living in Bourne Street in the Old town of Hastings
~~No one else is listed as living at the address.~~

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Monday 12 November 07 12:57 GMT (UK): Very confused here Chris....this is just a posting to insure that the forum is working properly....I made a posting early yesterday morning that it doesn't show, plus I received an email saying that you had made a posting also, and it doesn't show.
Before I go any further I want to confirm that everything is working OK.
Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Monday 12 November 07 14:36 GMT (UK): Hope this system is OK now Chris, just reply when you get caught up.

Yes, I too had the James Ford earmarked and felt quite confident that since James always listed his birthplace as Hastings, then he should (likely, but not guaranteed) appear in the 1841 census there. And this was the only entry that matched up so very very close. However, assumption is not always enough. But, you have put it altogether. Also, there is another person living there, her name is Elizabeth Colbran.

I just revised text for the webpage, and here is the snippet which pretty much covers it:

According to James and Clara's marriage certificate, his father's name was James and his occupation was sailor (the fancy scroll writing of the day makes
this word difficult to interpret, in fact we originally thought it was tailor). And according to the Hastings Baptisms James was baptized 4th Feb 1829, son of
James and Jane Ford, occupation fisherman. James Foord does not appear in the 1841 census, however a search based on his birthday produces a James Ford (a common
spelling error, and at the correct age of 13), living with Jane Ford age 30, and Elizabeth Colbran age 60, on Bourne St in old Hastings, all reported they
were born in Sussex (the 1841 census listed counties only, and did not state relationships). Elizabeth Colbran might very well be the widow of Geroge Colbran, who was listed
in the 1840 Pigot's Directory as "gaol" (jail) keeper and living on Bourne St. According to the early parish records, we find on 31st Dec 1827 James Foord
marrying Jane Colbran! It would appear that Jane and her son were living with her mother-in-law in the 1841 census. While it is somewhat of a safe bet that
Elizabeth was a widow, we cannot verify James' state. While he might have died prior to the 1841 census, given his occupation as fisherman and/or sailor, it is
also possible that he was "at sea". We cannot verify James' age, however his wife Jane was, according to the census, born abt 1811, and we assume
likewise for James..........'

A wee bit of irony here, James and Jane were married on my birthday. I do have some other questions and comments, but since I have been away so much I must get some work done, but wanted to get this off to you and to say thanks again. Will make another posting either later today or tomorrow with a bit more information and/or speculation.

Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Monday 12 November 07 16:13 GMT (UK): Larry

I sent you several messages yesterday that have all been lost - and for the life of me I cannot remember everything that I wrote.

Some things that I can remember are that in the 1841 census, George Colbran was listed as being in the Goal House with two deputies/constables on that night; therefore his good lady (we assume) was in Bourne Street with Jane and James.
If James was a sailor in 1841, it was a tradition that they all went to sea on the night of the census and therefore never got recorded as the census particularly required people who were resident in the property on a particular night.

According to "Historic Hastings" by Manwaring Baines - George Colbran the Hastings Goaler was pensioned off at the age of 71 after 20 years service on the 4th February 1842. He died at 9 Hill Street on November 27th 1862 at the age of 92. In 1842 on his retirement he was listed as a widower.

Found these burials in Hastings:
COLBRAN   George   93   3   Dec   1862   Hastings, St Clements
COLBRAN   George   2   8   Oct   1838   This Parish   Clem
COLBRAN   George   35   16   Dec   1833   Hastings, St Clements
COLBRAN   Jane   51   2   Oct   1851   All Saints
COLBRAN   George   2   8   Oct   1838   All Saints
COLBRAN   Elizabeth   77   18   Mar   1852   All Saints

Among that list do we have George the father, George the Son and George the ~~(Holy Ghost)~~ Grandfather; but we do not have an Elizabeth being buried after the 1841 census and before Georges retirement in 1842 that would have make him a widower.

Cant remember any more of what I wrote
Chris
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Monday 12 November 07 17:05 GMT (UK): Larry

I also now remember telling you that I had spotted this in the 51 census:

21 St Andrews Terrace, Hastings
Foord James, Head,23, Married, Jeweller, born Hastngs
Foord Sarah, Wife, Married, 21, born in Wainfleet, Lincolnshire

Which means between 41 and 51 he must have served an apprenticeship somewhere, possibly in Hastings for him to become a jeweller.

Chris in Hastings
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Monday 12 November 07 17:15 GMT (UK): I think I have lost it totally Chris.........first on George, I distinctly recall searching for him, trying to confirm my suspicion that he was dead. Totally missed it. So therefore, for the time being, we probably should assume that James was at sea based on your comments. It would be logical, whether he had died or not, that his wife and son might be living with the Colbrans.

I do have the 1851 census entry, Clara being misspelled as Sarah, a pretty easy mistake. There is no doubt that the nature of the trade required an aprenticeship, and given the ten year span between census makes it tough to find out where.

With respect to the Sussex marriages (prior to 1837 BMD registers), is this searchable? And if so, by name? Or by location?

Thanks again!
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Monday 12 November 07 17:23 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

Yes it is fully searchable - what would you like me to look for?

Chris
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Monday 12 November 07 21:38 GMT (UK): I would like, if possible and that is assuming that there is a true search (not you searching through pages and pages) all Hastings (which I assume you have done and produced two results), and all Foord/Ford marriages in Sussex prior to 1810. This is to build my database of probables, ultimately (I think) I am going to need 1700s info to tie this Foord family to my Kent Foords....or at least I pray I can..... :)
Zero rush here Chris, I have a lot ahead of me yet. Also, probably by tomorrow or next day I will have the website close enough to put it up.
So I will start a thread on it to perhaps rein in some more helpers, and I also am going to start another thread on "economics" of the time so I can get a better understand of what was going on in the UK in 1850.
Feel free to contribute anything and everything you want, you are great asset!
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Monday 12 November 07 21:39 GMT (UK): Forgot to mention, about two weeks ago I ordered the death certificates for all James Foords (four of them) that died prior to 1840. So that should either confirm that he did die, or confirm that he "at sea".
Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Tuesday 13 November 07 12:22 GMT (UK): Larry

I made this posting a while ago, but it seems to have dissappeared just like some messages did yesterday together with a private message I sent you. Perhaps we should communcate via e-mail till the system settles down again.

There are well over 500 marriages in the marriage index for the surname foord and variants, so perhaps it would be better for you to buy the CD and then you will have all marriages to hand when you have time to browse them

The Sussex Marriage Index, available from the Sussex Family History Group costing £23.10 GBP - Coverage is all known Sussex marriages between 1538-1837.
www.sfhg.org.uk/pubs-1.html

I am also sending you another private message

Chris
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Tuesday 13 November 07 12:50 GMT (UK): My gosh, I had no idea there would be anything like that quantity. I was (mistakenly) assuming that there would be 25 at most! You are absolutely right, I will buy it. Like most of this stuff I find myself going back and back to it, so having it on hand is an excellent idea. I will get it ordered today.

Back to the other inquiry you had. Could you ask her to either contact me direct, or if she could either post here or send to you, the parentage of the Foord sisters if she knows then, and the total family with approximate dates etc, again if she knows them. I am also just a bit confused who married who, and also the reference to a James....I think it means that he was a brother to Chapmans as opposed to the sisters.

I found the picture of the milkmen, and the stories of these people moving their houses literally on their back, just so fascinating. This ties in with the "economic" thread I am going to start. I think there is something about being old (I am talking about myself here) and being interested in genealogy that invokes the curiousity about life in those days. And, if nothing else, it sure can make one reflect on the fact that despite how tough we think things are for us now, revert back to those days and one will soon find what tough really is!

Thanks for not doing the search, if you had delivered 500 returns to me I would have choked at the thought of putting you to that kind of work!

Have a great day!

Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Tuesday 13 November 07 16:37 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

I have been making a few enquiries and the Hastings Cemetery Records indicate that:

James Foord, a Jeweller aged 55 years, was interred on 20th Feb 1883 in Grave Division A, Section D, Row K Number 15.
This is a private grave on which is a Headstone with a Curbed Surround.

So, first thing tomorrow morning I will be up there to see if I can locate it and take some pictures.

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Tuesday 13 November 07 20:10 GMT (UK): WOW, again..............thanks!
;)
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Wednesday 14 November 07 12:53 GMT (UK): Larry

Went up to the Cemetery this morning, and yes, the memorial is still standing - it is in the shape of a CROSS

Will post it together with the Inscription when I have processed the pictures - but I may not have time to do it before going down to Stratford Place this afternoon

Keep your eyes on this spot - its the middle one in this picture

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Wednesday 14 November 07 13:46 GMT (UK): Larry

Just had time to do it

Memorial – Division A, Section D, Row K, Number 15.

Memorial Description :-
Number of components 2    Memorial condition LICHEN STAINED
Memorial type   HD STONE CURB    Inscription condition GOOD
Material of gravestone Sand Stone   Height/Length(mm) 0
Mason J J Tutt of Hastings    Width(mm) 0
Number commemorated 1     Thickness(mm) 0
Inscription Method LEAD LETTERS    Direction faced by memorial SW

Memorial inscription :-
In
Affectionate Remembrance of
JAMES FOORD
who died February 16th 1883
Aged 54 Years

The Lord gave and the Lord hath taken
away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Hope the pictures are to your liking

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Wednesday 14 November 07 19:01 GMT (UK): For sure Chris, what can I say but thanks again. Just fantastic, imagine after these years. Much gratitude! I hope to get the website up later today, and start the other thread(s). Will add your stuff later, at your convenience..I can ammend it any time.
Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Thursday 15 November 07 18:06 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

A bit of good news and a bit of bad news I am afraid.

The bad news is that when I went down to see Bob the foreman in Stratford Place, he was just on his way out again to a meeting with his architects - I will get in there some day.

The good news is that he asked a young lad named James to show me around instead - he took me all over the building and I saw the new flats that they have now finished constructing. I spcifically asked to go into No 39 to see that - he said that No 39 was not part of the conversion, and when I come to think about it - there is no scaffolding at the back of the building in the pictures.

He said that although the ground floor of 39 is empty, there is someone living in the upper floors - so now I have to find out who it is and try and get invited into the building - it may be original in some parts.

I will try

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Thursday 15 November 07 18:40 GMT (UK): I'm not sure, I actually think it is more good than bad. If 39 is not part of the renovations, then the inside would be more "original". Although I suspect there have been a few changes since James' day. As usual my thanks for the major effort!
Larrry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: Chris in 1066Land on Thursday 22 November 07 11:28 GMT (UK): Hi Larry

I am always on the lookout for old books / pictures/ postcards/etc and very often trawl through e-bay items on Hastings or St Leonards.

I spotted a book on there about 3 weeks ago called "Photographic Views of Hastings St Leonards and Neighbourhood" produced by Brooker and Jepsons who had a Stationary/Book Shop in nearby Robertson Street from c1880 onwards.

I managed to aquire that book at a bit more than I wanted to pay for it, and it finally arrived in the post this morning - but guess what - It has a picture of White Rock Place c1890 - about the time of your Foords final days there.

I have attached the picture to this message, and upon blowing it up, the name on the Sun Blind of No 39 just says 'Jeweller'

We know that Foords successor Atwell had posh new blinds with his name all over them and also written on the top of the building, so I think this must be a picture with James Foord in existence

Hope you like it

Chris in 1066
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: UncleLarry on Thursday 22 November 07 12:14 GMT (UK): Now isn't that cool! Gives such a dramatic view from a different perspective...it shows the relationship of the storefronts to the sea, and look at the height of the building beside it! Again, above and beyond the call of duty! I just finished some changes last night and will reload the site this morning, this picture won't get added for a few days, it definitely goes up!
Thanks much, Larry
Title: Re: Hastings....Stratford Place vs White Rock
Post by: JOBAZ on Tuesday 01 January 08 16:28 GMT (UK): Quote from: Chris in 1066Land on Tuesday 13 November 07 12:22 GMT (UK)
Larry

I made this posting a while ago, but it seems to have dissappeared just like some messages did yesterday together with a private message I sent you. Perhaps we should communcate via e-mail till the system settles down again.

There are well over 500 marriages in the marriage index for the surname foord and variants, so perhaps it would be better for you to buy the CD and then you will have all marriages to hand when you have time to browse them

The Sussex Marriage Index, available from the Sussex Family History Group costing £23.10 GBP - Coverage is all known Sussex marriages between 1538-1837.
www.sfhg.org.uk/pubs-1.html

I am also sending you another private message

Chris

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