RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: tony h on Monday 29 October 07 18:00 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I am interested to know about Franciscan priests at the St Francis Friary, Cumberland St, Glasgow. I know who was there in 1881 but would appreciate any help with 1871, 1891 and 1901.
If it helps the Guardians at those dates, and hence the head of the household, would be as follows
1871 - Emmanuel Kenners
1891 - Francis Verhagen
1901 - Cuthbert Wood
Any information would be gratefully appreciated i f somebody has access to census info.
Many thanks
Tony
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Tried a search on Ancestry for each of the names but can only come up with 1881.
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Wondered if you might like to take a look yourself .... still free days !! ::)
http://landing.ancestry.com/popularmedia/hs1.aspx?landingpage=3DF_nc&o_iid=32618&o_lid=32618&o_it=32845
Annie :)
I think this was 1940-1950's though !!
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2335367540047537350vQXpmR
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Hi daval57,
Thanks for the look much appreciated. Checked out your Tribal Pages site - fantastic, well organised and amazing photos, thanks for sharing.
Hi Annie, I did join a free offer with Ancestry before but never got any luck north of the border. I don't fancy another 72 hour marathon so as not to waste a single second ;D I lied it was 71 hours, as I took an hour out for lunch ;D
See you around
Tony
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Thanks Tony,
Always nice to get appreciative comments.
Good luck with your search.
I googled the names too. Got a few hits, some interesting reading but nothing that helps you re Glasgow. There's one article about Gorton Monestary but being from Manchester I guess you know about that one.
Brief article here about Cumberland St:
http://tinyurl.com/yw86bf
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Found 1871 census by searching for "Louis" Verhagen - the name as shown in 1881.
I'll drop you a PM in a while. Still trying to find the other years.
Dave
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I think I have 1891 too.
There are differences in the address in Cumberland Street but I think it is possible that the records have been transcribed incorrectly.
Will keep looking and see whether I can get 1901.
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Hi Dave
Thanks.
Louis was Francis's brother literally, not just religiously. I've got just about all there is about Emmanuel, Francis and Cuthbert at the Manchester end but seeing who is up there with them will possibly help me move forward.
cheers
Tony
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Dave,
Absolutely outstanding ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Dave's given me 1871, 1881, 1891 and it is fabulous research material, but has just added months more to my search ::)
The transcriptions of names I know so well are appalling, but i can see them anyway.
Poor old Paschal Sliney
Listed as Pascal Slimey ;D
Many of the Friars are Belgian who first learned English in Drogheda, Ireland. The Scottish enumerators must have been in despair :o
Going to take a while to sort out, but i'll re-post correct names here to leave a record for future searches.
Thanks ever so much Dave ;D
And if anyone can help with 1901? well that would be just asking too much, or is it :D
Love Rootschatters to bits
Tony
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Thanks Tony,
As you say, the transcriptions are atrocious (dare I say diabolical considering who we are talking about?).
I think that is possibly why we can't find 1901.
ScotlandsPeople might be a better bet for searching in view of that - you can use Soundex to better effect.
I've no credits left for SP at the mo', perhaps someone could search 1901 census, Verhagen (no forename and using Soundex), Glasgow City, Hutchesontown .
There are two possibles.
Maybe a separate post for a search on SP
Dave
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1901 Scotland Census
St Francis Friary 407 Cumberland St
Name - Cathbert Wood
Age - 67
birth year - 1834
Relationship - Head
Born - England
Registration Number - 644/11
Registration district - Hutchesontown
County - Lanarkshire
Occupation - Roman Catholic Priest
Patrick Carroll 24
Paul Collins 26
Frederic Furlong 26
Ephrem Hickey 28
Albert Keshane 39
Lake Lawton 33
Roger MacAluse 26
Michael McCarthy 46
Arsenius Merters 65
Frederic Mooney 27
Richard O Connor 33
Edmund O Sullivan 36
Alexander Reilly 36
Parish - Glasgow Govan ED 54 Line 20
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Show off Annie. ;D ;D
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What can I say ?? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Here's a little bit of padding !! ;) ..... ( just to get Dave going !! ::) )
Franciscan Church and Friary
Hutchestown
Glasgow
Status - A Listed
Notes - Anson records that work continued by the Pugins until 1896. Between 1869 and 1881 the refectory of the Friary was used as church. Friary now converted to housing. Cost of church of 1881 £8000. John Devlin, Builder.
Name Pugin & Pugin
Designation Practice
Started Early 1870s
The founder of the Pugin & Pugin practice was Edward Welby Pugin, born in London on 11 March 1834, eldest son of Augustus Welby Northmore Pugin and his second wife Louisa Burton. Brought up in his father's office, Edward was 'his right hand man' by the age of sixteen, keeping the practice going through his father's periodic fits of madness from February 1852 onwards. When his father died on 14 September of that year, Edward was eighteen.
The sole beneficiary of his father's will was his third wife, Jane Knill, and on the advice of the stained glass manufacturer John Hardman Powell who had married Pugin's eldest daughter Anne, Jane Pugin moved both household and practice to Birmingham partly to be near their main patron the 17th Earl of Shrewsbury. For the Earl, Edward revised his father's designs very much in his style, but in 1856 the Earl died. The Pugin family resettled in Gordon Square, London, in the same year becoming sufficiently prosperous to resume full occupation of the Grange at Ramsgate by 1861.
In 1856 Edward succeeded in having himself appointed an additional assessor in the Lille Cathedral competition. Thereafter he began working in an individualistic French and Flemish gothic, often with strong polychromatic effects. His practice expanded rapidly and to cope with it he set up an additional office in Liverpool and formed a partnership with the Irishman James Murray in 1857. In 1860 he formed a second partnership with his brother-in-law George Coppinger Ashlin and opened a Dublin office for Irish work. The Murray partnership was, however, dissolved in 1860, Murray thereafter practising on his own account until his early death, and in 1862 Edward merged his practice with that of the older and well-established Joseph Aloysius Hansom. That partnership closed acrimoniously in the following year.
Edward Pugin was admitted FRIBA on 16 June 1862.
Two years earlier in 1860 he had founded the South East Furniture Company to manufacture his designs, the management of it being largely in the hands of his brother Cuthbert. The break-up of his partnership with Ashlin in 1869 may have been related to a much more high-risk business venture, the Granville Hotel at Ramsgate, a vast hotel and hydropathic complex. This failed in 1873 leaving Pugin bankrupt with liabilities of £187,000. He left for the United States where he quickly obtained commissions for some thirty churches and a monastery in Cuba. The English and Scottish work in hand was continued by his brothers Cuthbert Welby Pugin, born to Louisa in 1840, and Peter Paul Pugin, born in 1851 to his father's third wife Jane Knill, both of whom had been assisting him since the 1860s and had recently been taken into partnership, the practice becoming Pugin & Pugin.
Edward Pugin died suddenly on 5 June 1875 as a result of overwork and 'injudicious use of chloral hydrate'. He was unmarried and the main responsibility for the practice passed to Peter Paul, Cuthbert being principally concerned with the furniture making and furnishing side of the family business. Although Peter Paul's offices remained in London and Liverpool his practice was largely Scottish through Charles Eyre. Eyre came of a landed Northumbrian family and had been a parish priest at Pugin's church at Newcastle; Stephen Eyre, one of Edward Pugin's clerk of works, was probably a relative. Charles Eyre was appointed administrator of the Catholic church in the Glasgow area from 1869 and Archbishop of Glasgow when the Catholic hierarchy was re-created in 1878. Although Peter Paul's earlier churches were strongly influenced by his father and brother, by the 1880s he had developed a very recognisable curvilinear Gothic style, usually in red sandstone with elaborate altarpieces in coloured marbles.
Peter Paul Pugin married the third daughter of the Catholic builder John Bird of Hammersmith in 1886. They had five children, but none entered the practice. Peter Paul died in March 1904, the firm being continued by his nephew Sebastian Pugin Powell, born in 1866, the son of John Hardman Powell and Anne Pugin, Peter Paul's eldest sister. Sebastian became a member of the firm in 1884, Cuthbert having withdrawn in 1860 to run the family's furniture workshops. It is not clear at what date Sebastian became a partner.
Cuthbert lived on in retirement at Ramsgate until March 1928. Sebastian Pugin Powell died in 1949, but the practice was continued by his cousin Charles Henry Cuthbert Powell, born 1874, until his death in 1958.
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Annie,
I stole this from someone else but appropriate I think.....
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
You're funny Dave !! ;D
I was going to be serious and say that that photo you posted earlier of the St Francis in the Gorbals and this photo of the St Francis in Gorton .... are very similiar !
Also the GOR in Gorton .... and the GOR in Gorbals .... was that co-incidence do you think ??
Annie :)
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Absolutely re photos. Co-incidentally I'm just updating some info on my own site and just found a rellie that was married in this very church. I can now add it to my pictures of churches.
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How cool is that ? .... now we just need a picture of that wedding to see if one of the Fathers is on it !! ;D
Annie :)
PS Wonder if there are any old photos of the Fathers anywhere ?
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I hope Tony doesn't mind us taking over his post!
He'll get a shock :o when he opens his emails next :D
He's certainly sparked my interest. It's only about 4 miles from where I live now.
Just found this wee article from one of the local papers just last year.
http://tinyurl.com/2ohmau
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Found this .... I had read about it
The Franciscans arrived in Glasgow in the early 14th century and built their first chapel in the George Street area of the city. A Franciscan presence remained on the High Street near the University until around 1559 when the forces of the Reformation led to their suppression.
Despite attempts to carry on their good work in dangerous conditions the Franciscans did not re-establish themselves in the city until 1868 when they established a small mission in Calton.
In the same year the mission purchased a piece of land in Cumberland Street, Gorbals. The succeeding years saw the parish of Gorbals prosper and grow till soon a larger chapel was needed. The first turf was turned on the 2nd February 1880, closely followed by a ceremony on 25th May to lay the foundation stone. Although the original design by the famous architect Peter Paul Pugin had been altered the formal opening of the magnificent St Francis church took place on the 1st June 1881.
During an archaeological excavation at the site of the new City Science Centre on High Street, the remains of twenty followers, or benefactors, of St Francis were discovered on the site of the aforementioned monastery. After a deeply moving service by Archbishop Conti at St. Andrew’s Cathedral on 18th March 2005 the historic remains of St Francis’ faithful medieval followers were taken on the short journey to the Southern Necropolis where they were respectfully laid to rest at a graveside committal given by the Rev. Patrick Lonsdale, OFM, Guardian of the Glasgow Franciscan Friary in the Gorbals.
.... but just found the photo !
http://travel.webshots.com/photo/2168193650047537350tiEhzG
This site has some of the most poignant ..... " stick in the gut " photos ..... and even though I have never been to the Gorbals .... I can "feel" it !
Annie :)
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I like the look of that site. I've not come across it before. I'm off to kip now otherwise I may crash on my computer.
See ya.
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Not quite like your picture Dave ... but these are pretty cool !
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Well what can I say :o
I must go to bed more often and leave the Rootschat Elves to weave their magic through the night ;D
Dave, you might like to add this picture to your collection. I do have images of the Friars Annie and I'll post them shortly so as to put faces to names.
Gor blimey
Tony
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Here we go.
Unfortunately the names do not show clearly on this scan, but they do on the original.
It has been very useful to see those census images as I can fill in a lot of gaps now about who was doing what, where and when. They didn't half move around a bit.
See you soon
Tony
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And this is what 10 years in Glasgow does to you ;D
The man in the centre of the group photo and as he looked 10 years later :o
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Hi,
Think I've got all the ones I know of sorted now ;D
Census Real name
1871
James Innocent Barlins 32 Fr Innocent Bulens
Thomas Brandon Butte 29 Fr Brendan Thomas Butti
John Arthur Duffy 26 Brother Arthur Duffy
Ann Glincay
James Glincay
Jerry Glincay
John Glincay
Mary Glincay
Rose Glincay
William Glincay
Livia Anthony Emmanuel Kawas 44
Dennis Emmanuel McCarthy 32
Francis Moneyghan 18
Peter George Bateard Shulte 38 Fr Bertrand Schulte
Louis Verhagen 28
Theodore Martin Verhagen 32 Fr Martin Verhagen
1881
George Buckley 46
Innocent Bulens 42 Fr Innocent Bulens
Aidan Clancey 47
Patrick Dalton 43 Brother Patrick Dalton
George Dowling 38 Fr George Dowling
Ann Gold 44
Margaret Gold 6
Thomas Gold 45
Thomas Gold 3
Francis Higgins 35 Brother Francis Higgins
Antonine Scannell 36 Father Antonine Scannell
Bertrand Schulte 49 Fr Bertand Schulte
Lewis Verhagen 37
Cuthbert Wood 47 Fr Cuthbert Wood
1891
Chyston J Coleman 28
Ormand Conney 26
Rophel Van Coppenolle 59 Brother Raphael Van Coppenholle
Wilfred D Hafe 35 Fr Wilfred D’Have
Francis Higgins 45 Brother Francis Higgins
Erbert Knight 33 Fr Bruno Knight
Antonio Scamell 16 ?
Pascal Slimey 31 Brother Paschal Sliney
Rev F Vertrogan Rev Francis Verhagen
1901
Patrick Carroll 24
Paul Collins 26
Frederic Furlong 26 Fr Frederick Furlong
Ephrem Hickey 28 Fr Ephrem Hickey
Albert Keshane 39
Lake Lawton 33
Roger MacAluse 26 Fr Roger McAleese
Michael McCarthy 46
Arsenius Merters 65 Fr Arsenius Mertens
Frederic Mooney 27
Richard O’Connor 33 Fr Richard O’Connor
Edmund O’Sullivan 36 Fr Edmund O’Sullivan
Alexander Reilly 36
Cuthbert Wood 67 Fr Cuthbert Wood
Now for some real fun finding out who the others are ;D
Thanks very much again for your help on this one, lots of the jigsaw have slotted into place now.
Very best wishes
Tony
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Glad you're happy Tony h !! :)
We had fun doing it ....... well ! I know I did ... can't speak for the other fellah ! ::)
Just as an aside .... on the other census .... the extra names were pupils or servants ..... the pupils being maybe monks in training .... so at some point you may find them as "Fathers "
And can I ask a question .... what's the difference between a Brother and a Father ? weren't they all monks ?
Annie :)
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Of course it was fun.
Bet Tony didn't realise when he looked at my site that there would end up being a link to the Church. If you go back now, I have uploaded the photos and linked the couples name to it. Under morephotos there is an extract of their marriage.
Tony, do you reckon it would have been one of the Father's that would have performed the marriage? or would the Friary and the Church have been separate?
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Hi Dave
Church and Friary were bound at the hip like siamese twins. Tell me the year of the marriage and I'll probably be able to tell you the name of the priest :o
Tony
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They married on 28 March 1889, so church was barely opened.
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Really Annie,
A brother is a sibling and a Father is your dad ;D
Seriously, A Franciscan brother takes a number of vows each committing him to a life of Poverty, Chastity & Obedience. If he is married he can join the Third Order and commit to Poverty, Fidelity & Obedience, in which case Poverty and Obedience are guaranteed ;D ;D ;D
A Father is an ordained priest who is able to celebrate mass etc. He can be a Franciscan Brother who goes on to be ordained or a Priest who chooses to subsequently join the Franciscan order.
Either way none of them are monks. Monks live in a monastery, stay in the monastery and devote themselves to God. The Franciscans are Friars, who live in a Friary, but very much work out in the community supporting the poor and needy. Hence 'Our Father' feeling the need to go off to WW1 to support his boys. (sorry gone off topic there but Annie knows what I mean)
So the task now is to sort out those other names. I have already done most as I have a database of nearly 200 Franciscans active in the Uk 1858 - 1928. the problem is they change their first name to a Franciscan Saint when they take their vows. Hence my need to see census results to check surname and year of birth.
Bet you never wished you'd asked now ;D ;D ;D
Cheers
Tony
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Hi Dave,
I can't guarantee this is the Priest who married them, but he was certainly the Guardian at the time. ( Guardian = Abbot, head honcho etc).
I would be honoured if you would post him to your site linked to the marriage if you could, so he gets his place in history.
I will sort out bits of his biography to add later if i have them
Very best wishes
Tony
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No sooner said than done Tony. If I have time later, I might try and clean up the photo.
You should maybe post some of your photos in Photo restoration. There are plenty of folk out there that would enjoy making them clearer for you.
Dave
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Hi Dave
I realised when I had sent it , it was a raw scan. I've since ran it through auto adjust and it is much sharper. Will e-mail you a copy
Tony
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Thanks Tony, that would be great.
I don't do personal thanks on my site for contributions but there is a general acknowledgment on the home page.
Consider yourself included ;D ;D
Dave
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Really Annie,
A brother is a sibling and a Father is your dad ;D
Seriously, A Franciscan brother takes a number of vows each committing him to a life of Poverty, Chastity & Obedience. If he is married he can join the Third Order and commit to Poverty, Fidelity & Obedience, in which case Poverty and Obedience are guaranteed ;D ;D ;D
A Father is an ordained priest who is able to celebrate mass etc. He can be a Franciscan Brother who goes on to be ordained or a Priest who chooses to subsequently join the Franciscan order.
Either way none of them are monks. Monks live in a monastery, stay in the monastery and devote themselves to God. The Franciscans are Friars, who live in a Friary, but very much work out in the community supporting the poor and needy. Hence 'Our Father' feeling the need to go off to WW1 to support his boys. (sorry gone off topic there but Annie knows what I mean)
So the task now is to sort out those other names. I have already done most as I have a database of nearly 200 Franciscans active in the Uk 1858 - 1928. the problem is they change their first name to a Franciscan Saint when they take their vows. Hence my need to see census results to check surname and year of birth.
Bet you never wished you'd asked now ;D ;D ;D
Cheers
Tony
OK ... I was confused .... who me ??::) ::) ::)
I was thinking OFM was Order of Franciscan Monks - but it's really Order of Friars Minor !!
OK I've "got it " now !!
Thank you !
Annie :)
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Hi Dave,
I've cleaned up the photo of Fr. Antonine Scannell and will send e-mail. Also had another look at your excellent website and now that we know who we are looking for can see his name quite clearly on the Calderwood\Forrest marriage registration. So he's definitely the one who married them.
Cheers
Tony
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Got your email Tony. Have added better quality photo to my site.
I never tend to pay much attention to that portion of the marriage certificates.
Will do from now on.
Thanks
Dave
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Tony Francis Verhagen was the priest who married my Great Grandparents :)
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Hi Pancho,
Inspired by Dave's brilliant site I have been posting up all my research to tribalpages. Up till now it has been in carrier bags, files and spreadsheets, but Dave's site gave me the inspiration to treat the Franciscan brothers as a family. Its very much a work in progress less than a week old but I've got Fr Francis Verhagens obituary up there already.
Enjoy
http://franciscans.tribalpages.com/?userid=franciscans&x=15&y=10
visitor password: 1861
Enjoy
and Dave, thanks for the inspiration ;D
Tony
;D
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Hi Tony,
How are you doing?
I lost your email address and had to ask for help on this site to find you. Happy outcome.
Anyway, I went for a walk today and decided to go to The Southern Necropolis - Pancho, I think you know it well but it was a first for me.
On my route, I passed St Francis and took some photos.
There are too many to post here but if you are interested Tony, send me a PM with your email address again and I'll pass them on to you.
This one is my least favourite although it shows the whole building - lovely building!
Dave
PS - thanks for the nice comments earlier.
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Hello Tony
Just had a wee look at your site and discovered that my Gran and Grandad were also married
at St Francis on the 28th of February 1922 by Anthony Mulder ....another name on your site
by the way their names were Francis Sloey and Margaret O`Connor
I must have a look to see how many of my rellies were married there
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Oh and Edwin Witsker Married my Great Grandparents on April 26th 1895 at St Francis
their names were James Slowey(note spelling)and mary McKenna
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deleted - meant to amend but sent message twice ??? ???
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Sancti / Pancho
in case Tony doesn't get this, do you have his email address? I really think he'd like the photos I took.
Dave
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Sorry Dave
I dont have Tonys Email but I too ,liked the photos could you emai them to me ?My Gran lived opposite and I have happy memories visiting her
my email is .........Email addy removed to prevent spamming and other abuses. Please use our secure Personal Messaging System to exchange private information - keep safe!
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Done - hope you got them - they were all over 500 megs
write this 100 times...
DELETE your email
DELETE your email
DELETE your email
DELETE your email
etc
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Hello Dave/Pancho
Fascinating info, thanks ever so much. I am pushed for time as ever recently ::) I'm off to Mum's for a week in a few hours, NO internet ??? What am I going to do ::)
My e mail is mjahurley (all one word lower case) AT yahoo co uk with the usual @ and dots in between.
Dave, I'm intrigued by the picture, would love to see more. Gorton has some fascinating architectural secrets. I can see another possible one in your picture. It is a seven bay church, look at the highest windows, 7 bays each with 3 windows with the exception of the last on the right only 2 windows ??? I guarantee that will mean something.
Can anyone confirm the church's alignment it should be east/west but is it north/south?
Hope to log on from a library in next few days,
Cheers
T
x
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The front of the church faces South.
So what does it all mean?
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My Dad went to the school attached to the church my mum has some photos of him in the
school football team I must look them out
I was born in the St Francis Nursing home (Merryland St Govan)my mum says it was the birthplace
of most babies from st Francis parish.
ps St Francis Nursing Home is also the birthplace of Fivecrates Daval
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A report in the local paper says that the catholic church authorities are going to buy back St Francis' because the other local church was badly damaged by fire
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Hi sancti (again),
Which, where and when? Missed that.
Dave
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Evening Times, yesterday
Buying it back for £1
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Tight ar*e says, gonnae scan it and post. Please. :P
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For all those who missed it
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/mostpopular.var.2442563.mostviewed.row_after_church_is_bought_back_for_a_pound.php
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Brilliant Glad to see it being back to what it was bulit for its a beautiful church and I for one am delighted to see it back
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Hi Dave,
If the church faces south rather than the traditional east west then you can play amazing tricks with the sun entering the building and illuminating certain features on feast days and other holy dates. I'll e-mail a stunning example from here.
Cheers
T