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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: tonyhennessey1 on Sunday 28 October 07 20:51 GMT (UK)
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Hi all
(this was previously posted in The Common Room before I realised a non-county forum for Scotland existed)
I've gone as far as I can (which isn't very far at all) with the research for my GG-Grandparents in Scotland and am hoping that some bright spark out there will be able to help me. Sorry this is so long but I thought it would be better if you detectives out there had as much info. as I have.
This is what I have so far:-
English Census 1881 in Albion St., Jarrow - County Durham
James Irwin 41 born Ireland - Iron Puddler
Mary Irwin 40 :) born Scotland, wife
Robert Irwin 14 born Scotland - unemployed
Ellen Irwin 9 born Scotland
Mary Irwin 5 born Felling, County Durham
Catherine 4 born Gateshead, County Durham
Thomas 5mths born Jarrow, County Durham
English Census 1891 in Princess St., Jarrow - County Durham
James Irwin 56 born Ireland - Retired Iron Puddler
Mary Irwin 46 ;) born Scotland, wife
Robert Irwin 23 born Scotland - Ironworker
Ellen Irwin 18 born Scotland - working in Ropery
Mary Irwin 15 born Felling, County Durham - working in Ropery
James 8 born Jarrow, County Durham
Annie 6 born Jarrow, County Durham
English Census 1891 in Burns St., Jarrow - County Durham
James Irwin 61 born Ireland - Shipyard Labourer
Mary Irwin 51 or 54 :o born Scotland, wife
Ellen Irwin 28 born Scotland - Yarn Winder Ropery
James 18 born Jarrow, County Durham - Steel Roller at Mill
Annie 16 born Jarrow, County Durham
Mother Mary's age is a little skew-whiff but that kind of aging process runs deep in our family
After much searching and a lot of help from Durham Genealogy, I managed to buy son James' birth cert for his birth in 1882 when he is living at Albion St., Jarrow/Father James - Iron worker/Mother Mary. There were significant developments with this information:-
Irwin had now become Irvine but this may be because Mother Mary couldn't read and write and maybe the Registrar couldn't understand her Scottish accent.
Mother Mary's maiden name is given as RUSSELL.
So, having worked out that the family must have been in Scotland in 1871, I searched the 1871 Census for Scotland for suitable Irwins and Irvines without any luck.
There are about 15 Mary Russells who fit the bill in the 1861 Scotland census.
On the Scotland's People site I bought credits for a variety of matches for Irwin/Irvine marriages, Irwin/Irvine to Russell marriages and Robert and Ellen birth certs. all within the age and date ranges of the English Census data. I have found absolutely nothing out with these.
If its any help, it is probable that at least part of the family were RC. I know they are in the next generation because son James (my G-Grandfather) brought up his boys as Catholics and his wife brought up the girls as C of E.
This then is my brick-wall. Having had a lot of luck with finding others who have shared information or who have proved to be amazing detectives, I have managed to push all my other branches as far as they possibly can go. I'm hoping someone here can at least nudge me in the right direction with my IRWIN and RUSSELL family branches.
There is an Irving family from the 1871 census with similar names but having bought two birth certs. for this family I can confirm they are not mine.
Thanks for reading
:) :)
Good Luck
Tony
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Hi Tony,
I think Robert and Ellen may have been born before James and Mary married. Here's a few births, listed with just the mother, Mary Russell.
- James Irving Russell - 16th Sep 1863, High Church, Glasgow
- John Russell - 30th Oct 1865, High Church, Glasgow
- Robert Russell - 1st May 1867, High Church, Glasgow
- Ellen Russell - 20th Jun 1872, High Church, Glasgow
- Samuel Duncan Russell - 27th Feb 1874, High Church, Glasgow
Can't find Mary (or the first three children) in 1871 yet. :-\
hume24
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Hi Hume24
I am very impressed!!!
Where on earth did you dig up that information?
I'm presuming that James is the father since James IRVING Russell has his surname (Irwin-Irvine-Irving) as a middle name (???).
I wonder why they didn't marry? Would it have been likely it was because he was Catholic and she wasn't?
:)
Thank you
Tony
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Hi Tony,
I always look under mother's maiden name, just in case there's other children before marriage. In this case, nearly all of them. ;D I still can't find them in 1871, but here's an interesting entry in 1861 for the Irvines:
Residence: 15 College St Back Land, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Ellen Irvine, f, head, 60, househol[d]er, Ireland
Mary ", f, dau., 30, mill worker, Ireland
James ", m, son, 25, puddler iron foundry, Ireland
Elizabeth ", f, dau., 23, mill worker, Ireland
Catherine Coligand, f, g-dau., 7, luceark georgow (?), Glasgow, Lanark
Mary McCaskill, f, g-dau., 1, -, Glasgow, Lanark
hume24
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Hi Hume 24
Thanks for replying with more hopeful news.
On the plus side for this family of IRVINES, they all have the family names that will be used in the next generation.
Another plus is James' occupation - a bit of a coincidence him being an Iron Puddler although it was a common job looking at the 1861 census for occupations.
His age matches that of the 1891 census in Jarrow but not that of the 1881 or 1901 - I haven't a clue why the parents' ages are out but the children's were nearly spot on.
Thanks a million for all this.
Tony
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Hi
I bought a look at the image of James IRVING Russell and he was registered as illegitimate. The address is 94 High Street, which, if my map reading skills are accurate, means that Mary Russell lived around the corner from James Irvine and family in College Street in the early 1860's. ;)
Still no sign of a marriage for them in Scotland or England.
I'm presuming that James Irving Russell died young because my G-Grandfather was named James and I can't see that there would be two living sons around with the same name. I can't find a death for him yet - but I'm beginning to distrust the ScotlandsPeople database for its accuracy of searching. Its amazingly expensive too. I think I'd found most of my other 800+ relatives with the Ancestry census and BMD for about two months worth of searching. Cost, about £16.00. I've paid ScotlandsPeople £18.00 :o for very little return.
Back to the hunt.
:)
Tony
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Hi Tony,
Sorry to hear you are finding ScotlandsPeople expensive. I find it quite reasonable and efficient, given you have access to certificates over a range of 100 years. :) You may find this thread (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,43916.0.html) interesting. It shows the use of soundex and wildcards can be effective in SP searches, therefore saving your credits for other uses!
I can't find a marriage for James and Mary either. It looks like they went to England in c. 1876 (going by young Mary's birth in the 1881 census) and there's no marriage showing up to 1875 so it looks as though it's an English marriage or they didn't at all. :-\
As for the origins of Mary Russell, does the birth certificate of James Irving Russell give an occupation for the mother? Also, who was the informant? Was it Mary herself?
Trying to help.
hume24
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Hi Tony,
This is going to be no help to you at all!! I just wanted to 'share' - I'm having same trouble getting a handle on my Irvin/Urvin/Irving side - all from the Northumberland area acc. to census. Two or three children before marriage and then another name change!!!
Sorry I can't help but hope it makes you feel a little better to know someone else is having the same problems :) :)
whpool
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Hi Hume24
Mary's occupation is Flax Mill Spinner.
Mary is the informant signing with her mark X.
thanks :)
Tony
Hi whpool
thanks for your support :)
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Hi
Latest news.
I gambled and bought a look at the 1868 marriage of Elizabeth Irvine to Andrew Gray.
At first I thought I was on to a winner with the address being College Street as in 1861.
Her occupation was good too - worker in a Linen factory.
Then I found ....
Age 19 instead of 29/30.
Mother Margaret instead of Ellen. (for the record - father William a Cotton weaver)
They may be related to the other Irvines but it didn't help me. ::)
:)
Tony
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Hi all
Latest update.
I found a death cert. for James Irving Russell – August 1864 aged 11 months. :(
His Mother Mary (still a Flax Mill Spinner) is now living at 12 or 13 Middleton Place, Glasgow.
(Modified Middleton Street to Middleton Place)
I still can’t find Mary Russell or James Irvine on the 1871 census. They must be there somewhere.
Thanks
:)
Tony
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Hi Tony,
I've just gave the census a fresh look and still can't see them. :-\ Have you gave Ellen (born 1872)'s birth certificate a look, to see if it opens up any more possibilities?
hume24
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Hi Hume24
I had a look this morning and there's not too much to be learnt.
Ellen is illegitimate. Mary's occupation is Flax Mill Worker.
The address is 126 Garngad Road, Glasgow - High Church District (which I can't find on the map).
(Modified - apparently Garngad Road was renamed Royston Road in 1942)
Can I ask you, where did you get the original dates of birth for the Russell family?
Thanks
:)
Tony
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Hi
I found Mary Russell in the 1871 census.
At 126 Garngad Rd, 2D Bkland, Glasgow
Mary Russell 27, b.1844 Glasgow, Head - factory worker
Mary Russell 36, b.1835 Hogganfield, Lanarkshire, boarder - factory worker
Margaret Russell 26, b.1845 Glasgow, Sister - no occupation given
Catherine Lynch 6, b. 1865 Glasgow, Daughter
Robert Owen 4, b.1867 Glasgow, Son
(Modified - Garngad Road extends eastwards to Hogganfield)
Who said there wasn't too much to be learnt from Ellen's birth cert :o
So... do we think that there are a whole rake of fathers for these children - especially now with two of them having different surnames to Irwin/Irvine/Irving and even Russell?
Confused but happy to have more information than I had.
:)
Tony
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Hi Tony,
What a great find. It shows how much one certificate can tell us. ;D I'm assuming we're taking the 27-year-old as your Mary? I think it is, given son Robert's age and birthplace. A likely entry for Catherine's birth is this one. Rush=Russell, perhaps?
Catherine Lynch Rush
Born: 20th April 1865 High Church, Glasgow
Mother: Mary Rush
I got this and the other births from the IGI (International Genealogical Index) (link here (http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/frameset_search.asp?PAGE=igi/search_IGI.asp&clear_form=true)). Always try a few combinations, especially with names. ;)
hume24
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Hi Hume 24
thanks for that info. about the IGI. :) I have used it a few times but it was ages ago and I had no success at all. I don't think it works too well for Irish Ancestry. I'll remember it next time I'm looking though.
In answer to your question, yes I am taking the 27 year old as my Mary. This age still fits in with her age for the 1861. The other Mary is too old at 35. Obviously the address is a match too.
Now, regarding the children of Mary Russell. Does anyone have an opinion regarding a father. I was quite happy to see the first child, James Irving Russell to have his dad's first name and Irving used as an approximation of his surname. To see two other children with the names Lynch and Owen as middle names is confusing and, to be honest, quite shocking if they have different fathers. It may be possible that the name Irwen has been misheard as Owen for Robert but I can't understand Lynch.
Looking at the 1851 census there is a family of Russells living in the Gorbals with a Mary and sister Margaret that appear to be the same family. There are a couple of other families but they don't meet the criteria of Glasgow births for the two girls.
In 1861 there are a few possibilities for both girls living separately but none together, as far as I can see.
In 1871 there are a couple of James Irvines living in lodgings but none that I can find as an Iron Puddler. The rest of his family from 1861 seem to have disappeared by 1871 too.
Thanks again for the IGI info. and for Catherine's details. :)
I'll have another search later today and keep you posted.
:)
Tony
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Hi all
latest update.
I found a death cert. for Samuel Duncan Russell (Illegitimate) b1874 who sadly died after 8 mths 12/11/1874 in the district of High Church.
Mary Russell - mother, living at 15, River Street, Blochavin (???), Glasgow.
The best information on this is that her father's occupation is given - that of IRON PUDDLER - the same as James Irwin/Irvine.
(Added later - I eventually found River Street on an old map. Renamed SHORE STREET. Not the best place in Glasgow to live - right next to the Corporation Sewage Works on one side and the Refuse dispatch Works on the other. How any of them survived is a miracle).
On with the hunt....
:)
Tony
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Hi me again
A strange update.
I was having a closer look at the cert. for Samuel when I noticed the entry above was the same address.
Another child - John Ferguson Russell (Illegitimate) aged 1 year died of Convulsion Dentition (???) 11/11/1874.
Mother was Christina Russell a Bleachfield Worker.
Samuel, by the way, had died of Inflamation of Lungs.
I wonder how Christina and Mary were related.
:)
Tony
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Todays update
I found the death cert for John Russell (illegitimate) b.1864 died 24/04/1867 of Measles. :(
Mother - Mary Russell - Flax Spinner of Garngad Road, High Church, Glasgow
Nothing new there except to prove the high mortality rate of children at that time.
Tony
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Hi
Hume24 wrote
A likely entry for Catherine's birth is this one. Rush=Russell, perhaps?
Catherine Lynch Rush
Born: 20th April 1865 High Church, Glasgow
Mother: Mary Rush
I found the birth cert. for this Catherine (Illegitimate) and it proves that it is the correct Mary - obviously the registrar misheard Mary who couldn't read and write. Address is 13 Middleton Street (although I think this should be Place not Street) and mother Mary is, as usual, a Flax Spinner.
That just about completes the set, although I can't find a death for this Catherine who must have died 1871 - 1877 before the birth of the next Catherine.
I'm not sure what to do next about taking this family further back (I can't see the woods for the trees ;D) - any advice gratefully received.
:)
Tony
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Wow, you've certainly progressed with the names! It's looking likely that they were to several fathers, rather than just the one James Irving/Irvine. I'm still trying to find James in the 1871 census, but nothing is standing out once again.
The only thing I can think of is trying to track James' sisters' to find out their father's first name and their mother's maiden name. However, I think it will be difficult with all the variations! Either that, or you try to find Ellen's (head of household in 1861) death certificate. 1861 - 1871, aged 60 - 70 in the Glasgow area? I'm afraid I'm not helping that much. :(
hume24
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Hi Hume24
you have helped a lot.
A few of your suggestions I have already followed up on but with no luck - eg. Ellen's death which I can't find. If she owned a house she may have sold up and gone back to Ireland.
I'll make a list of all the things I've done so far and take it from there.
Thanks
Tony
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Hi all
I'm asking for help again with this search.
After making a lot of progress last time (aided and guided by Hume24) I still haven't a clue where in Ireland my Irwins/Irvines came from originally. I have several possibilities in Antrim but the key to this is finding the name of the husband of Ellen Irvine who is listed in 1861 with her family:-
Residence: 15 College St Back Land, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Ellen Irvine, f, head, 60, househol[d]er, Ireland
Mary ", f, dau., widow, 30, mill worker, Ireland
James ", m, son, 25, puddler iron foundry, Ireland
Elizabeth ", f, dau., 23, mill worker, Ireland
Catherine Coligand, f, g-dau., 7, Glasgow, Lanark
Mary McCaskill, f, g-dau., 1, -, Glasgow, Lanark
I've hunted high and low for Ellen's death and just can't find it ???. I'm presuming her death cert. would have her husband's name and her maiden name on it (which would open up a whole new branch in Ireland as well).
Can anybody advise what would be the next best thing after unsuccessfully searching SP records? (I found one in 1888 but she was Scottish and single and in Kirkudbright).
I've also used quite a few credits viewing marriages for Ellen's daughter Elizabeth but they all have different mothers and wrong ages.
Daughter Mary I now believe to be daughter-in-law to Ellen and mother of Catherine Coligand. Catherine's name I found out is McColigan. I have her birth and parents 1851 marriage (James McColigan and Mary Irvine) and her father's death in 1856. Catherine ended up in the City poorhouse through 1871 and 1881. Unfortunately Mary's marriage 'cert'. from 1851 gives very little information.
Any help or advice would be gratefully accepted.
Thanks
:)
Tony
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Hi Tony,
not many Irvines in 10 year age and death range died in Glasgow. I take it you've tried all these:
IRVINE AGNES F 64 SPRINGBURN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 622/02 0182
1869 IRVINE AGNES F 64 PARTICK GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 646/02 0057
1871 IRVINE ANN MCINALLY F 71 SHETTLESTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 622/03 0130
1861 IRVINE ELIZA ANN ADAMS WHITESIDE F 57 ANDERSTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/08 0017
1861 IRVINE ELIZABETH IRVINE FAULDS F 63 SPRINGBURN GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 622/02 0241
1863 IRVINE JANE DUNLOP F 62 GLASGOW CENTRAL DISTRICT GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/01 1928
1870 IRVINE JANE JACKSON F 71 CALTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/04 1044
1864 IRVINE JANET ----- SMITH F 62 HIGH CHURCH GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/02 0758
1871 IRVINE MARGARET F 73 MILTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/07 0556
1867 IRVINE MARY LECKIE F 62 TRADESTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/09 0177
1863 IRVINE MARY ANN HUTTON BARR F 58 MILTON GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/07 0192
1869 IRVINE SARAH MCKECHNIE F 65 GLASGOW CENTRAL DISTRICT GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/01 2415
1871 IRVINE SARAH MCKIE MCNEIL F 71 GLASGOW CENTRAL DISTRICT GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/01 1430
Should point out that people living in Middleton Place did not own their houses- it was a by word for slum housing (speaking as one who had many family members born and brought up there :-\ )
may be worth contacting the archivist at the Mitchell library about the poor house connection. They keep the archives and there may be more info in these than you think!
Good luck,
John
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Hi John
thanks for replying :).
I had already seen the list of Irvines before but was obviously put off using too many credits especially as they were all the wrong first names and wrong areas. None of the names are used by James' family later on (Ellen is). Actually Elizabeth is Ellen's daughter's name ::) so I may give that a shot if all else fails. I did view Janet because she had the right age and area (High Church). I'm still hoping that SP just haven't got her. Does anybody have experiences of their missing relatives from SP deaths during this time period?
Re: Middleton Place - I knew that Mary Russell lived in all of the slums (I've got a brilliant photo I found in a search of her 'house' in High Street from 1861 - luxurious it ain't! :o :().
I'll take your advice about the Poor House archivists and see if I can pick up anything useful if Ellen ever wound up there :-\. I'm still convinced she owned a house in College St.. Why else is she down as Householder? :-\ Nobody else in the street has that as an occupation. I would also find it a bit weird that James her son would let his ould ma rot away in one of those places.
Cheers John
:)
Tony