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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: daval57 on Saturday 20 October 07 20:23 BST (UK)
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Hi all.
Recently discovered my great grandmother is buried here so in the next couple of weeks, weather permitting, I am going to take a look for her grave.
If anyone else has ancestors that they know are buried there, give me the details and I'll have a look and take photos and MI.
Depending on the response I get, I MIGHT open my search for people that are only possibly buried there.
PLEASE DON'T WASTE TIME POSTING GUESSES FOR THE TIME BEING. I will not respond.
Dave
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Hello Dave,
Gee, I'm a bit intimidated by the caps!
Ah well, here goes ... :)
This is not a guess though I must admit that I do not have proof positive myself.
John LOCHTIE d Stillorgan Reservoir, Dublin 31 Jan 1892, bur 4 Feb 1892 Sighthill Cemetery, Glasgow.
I don't have the grave reference. I have been told that the gravestone was stolen but that is hearsay.
I am not sure but I suspect he was buried in the same grave as his illegitimate son John LOCHTIE/John KILPATRICK (son of Elizabeth FLETCHER nee KILPATRICK), who was b 9 Nov 1857 (as John KILPATRICK) in Stirling, Stirlingshire and d 20 Nov 1876 (as John LOCHTIE, a seaman apprentice) in Glasgow.
John LOCHTIE (1830-1892) was born in Aberdour, Fife; he married (1858) Margaret PHILP (1827-1907) who was born in the adjacent Dalgety, Fife (she was buried in Dublin). My children are descended from the ancestors of both John LOCHTIE & Margaret PHILP/PHILIP/PHILLIP who were cousins.
Incidentally LOCHTIE is a very very rare name indeed. Any LOCHTIE will be connected.
Thanks very much but of course I'll certainly understand if you can't do anything.
Best regards,
JAP
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Will have a good look JAP.
I don't mean to frighten anyone off but Sighthill is a massive cemetery and I don't want to go any any wild goose hunt. (Unless of course someone is looking for the son of Mr and Mrs Wildgoose from Govan. ;)
You must have seen posts in the past where someone will say "Smith? I've got a great uncle called Smith that lived in Glasgow. Does anybody know him?" ::) ::)
If I find any Lochties, I'll photograph and write down the MI.
All enquiries welcome. There just needs to be a sound basis to think that the person and / or rellies are buried there.
Dave
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Hi again Dave,
Many thanks for your kind words.
You probably won't find any LOCHTIEs (a Fife name which is definitely rare as the proverbial hens' teeth) . It truly-ruly is an incredibly rare name. And - incidentally - never, in my experience, confused with the not at all rare Wigtown/Ayr name LOCHRIE.
To me it seems strange that John LOCHTIE (1830-1892) who died in Dublin would have been buried in Sighthill, Glasgow 4 days later. But I've been assured by relatively recently contacted LOCHTIE rells who are descended from him that there is no question about this ... Though they don't seem to have more details.
John LOCHTIE & Margaret 'PHILLIPS' (PHILP/PHILIP/PHILLIPS) married in Glasgow in 1858. They had:
*Roberta Philip (b 1859 in Dunoon; she d 1919 in Dublin).
*John (b Dunoon 1861, d Blythswood Glasgow 1862).
*Andrew Philip (b 1863, Blythswood Glasgow; was in Dundee in 1905; don't know when/where he died).
*Thomas Donaldson (b Blythswood Glasgow 1865; married Bella YOUNGCLAUSE in Midlothian 1905; died Midlothian 1948).
*Helen/Ellen Donaldson (b 1867 in Co Wicklow; d Dublin 1946).
*William (b Dublin 1870, married Pollie LARKIN, died Dublin 1951).
Best regards and thanks again,
JAP
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I don't mean to frighten anyone off but Sighthill is a massive cemetery and I don't want to go any any wild goose hunt. (Unless of course someone is looking for the son of Mr and Mrs Wildgoose from Govan. ;)
Hi Dave
It can also be difficult to find a plot even if you have the plot number (because of the complicated layout).
I found out that an ancestor was buried at Sighthill, and managed to get the plot number, I looked for ages without finding anything.
I had to get the Land Services to guide me to the plot (it took about 3 weeks for them to answer my request).
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Hi Rena,
I realise yours is an old post but are you still interested?
I posted about Sighthill yesterday.
Dave
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,263026.msg1483956.html#msg1483956
Hi Dave,
Yes, I'm definitely still interested and I'm thanking my lucky stars the letter about my father's paternal line caught your eye. I've repeated the names below from my original email.
Section 8 No 103 &104 F
Burial Date, 4 Oct 1871, Sect 103 F
Agnes Crum, Burial No. 90000490, Aged 79
Burial Date, 1 Oct 1887, Sect 104 F
John Crum, Stationer, Burial No. 90000489, Aged 70
Burial Date, 14 Feb 1922, Sect 104 F
Lillias Crum, dau, Burial No. 90000492, Aged 67
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I haven't managed to find where tomb owner's wife, or 3 of his spinster daughters or his bachelor brother is:
Mrs John Crum (ms Jane MacKenzie) 1824-1866/70
Thomas Crum 1818 - September 1871
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Where did they bury 'influential' people? This is John's cousin, she was sister-in-law of Robt Dalglish, Glasgow MP:-
Lillias Crum (Mrs Andrew Stephenson Dalglish) 1794-1867
Andrew Stephenson Dalglish, industrialist, 1793-1858
both died at Hillhead Hse, don't know where they're buried.
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It goes without saying that I'd rather you not walk passed any other Crum headstone without photographing it ::)
Thanks a million
Cheers,
Rena
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Rena and Jap,
They're all on my list.
Can't guarantee when I'll get back to you but it is my intention to go the first day there is some decent weather.
I may do this over several visits over the next couple of weeks.
Dave
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Rena and Jap,
They're all on my list.
Can't guarantee when I'll get back to you but it is my intention to go the first day there is some decent weather.
I may do this over several visits over the next couple of weeks.
Dave
Hi Dave,
From TV weather reports, it looks like we may have a long wait for fine weather up there :-\
I phoned Glasgow Cemeteries in Trongate to find out where Section 8 is. The telephone receptionist says there's a plan of Sighthill in reception which isn't much good to me but she did give me the phone number of a Mr Wylie, foreman of Sighthill who should know the layout. Unfortunately mr. nobody is in the office when I phone. A memory from way back in the early 1950's recalls his little legs had to walk up a hill to the Crum grave but I don't think the name "Sighthill" was given for it being flat ::) Somehow I don't think we had this sort of money:-
<<The land for Sighthill Cemetery was purchased in 1840 by a joint stock company. Of the 46 acres, at first only 12 were enclosed for use burial purposes, and were laid out to the design of the first superintendent, Thomas McKenzie.
The graves of the well-to-do occupy the crown of the hill, and look down on those of the less well off. >>
Here's hoping wind, rain and snow stay away.
Cheers,
Rena (nee Crum)
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Hi all,
Weather hasn't been too bad. A bit cold but not enough to put me off.
However, I put off my visit due to a bereavement in the family.
I still intend going to Sighthill and hopefully in the not too distant future.
I've not forgotten and still have all your details.
Rena, thanks for the additional info - when you say the plan is "in reception" do you think they mean reception at Sighthill or at Trongate?
Dave
Perhaps you send me a PM with Mr Wylie's phone number.
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I've not been yet. Waiting for the weather to get a bit better but I do still intend to go.
If you contact the Glasgow Cemeteries they will charge you a substantial amount for a search so don't do that yet.
I've sent you a PM with a note of my email address.
Email me as much info as you can - names, dates of birth and death where you have them. Parents, childrens and spouses names where you have them might also help identify the correct graves.
As for the tradition of the collection, that's a new one on me. Interesting.
Dave
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The Glasgow Cemeteries department only charge for a search if a search is needed.
I went to them with a name and date of death and they found the lair number while I waited, for no charge.
They recommended that I arrange to meet the keeper on site - he will guide me to the lair, at no charge.
They also told me that the grave was in "common ground" where there will not be a headstone.
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Dave Hello mate
re your Sighthill search i contacted Trongate too searching for John Slowey my GGG Grandfather
they have checked lambhill and St Kentigerns without success so I guess Sighthill is the next best thing
as he died on the north side of the river (Argyle Street to be exact)
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Slowey on my list Pancho.
Will let you know when I'm going.
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Good Man Dav Happy hunting
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Reinstated by Moderator
Hi murray61,
For your free information from the cemeteries people, did you actually know the cemetery your folks were in or are the indexes collated and searchable by name and/or death date?
The reason I ask is that I have a got half a dozen actual death dates but no idea of the cemetery except for one of them.
Do you think I could get the plot info over the phone or is that the kind of thing they charge for?
Oh and also! are all the cemeteries in Glasgow covered by the one office?
Thanks.
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Dear GallowayLass,
Yes, I did know that the burial was in Sighthill.
The clerk went into a back office, and I assume that she looked it up in the original register.
If you don't know which cemetery then I suspect that you will be charged for a search.
Trongate is the office for all of the cemeteries administered by Glasgow Council.
Take a look at their web site at http://www.glasgow.gov.uk/en/Residents/BirthDeathMarriage_Citizenship/Death/Burialgrounds/
If you are looking for a pre-1855 burial then the National Burial Index project at the Glasgow & West of Scotland FHS would be worth a try.
Good luck
Murray
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:-* ♫♪♪♪♫♫ :-* ♪♫♫♪♪♪ Just wondering if I could whistle up a
photo of Sighthill Cemetery ;D
Rena ::)
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Jings, is it really as long ago as October that I started this thread.
Sorry guys, I've had other things on my plate and visiting cemeteries and the like became a lower priority for me.
Will make a point of going soon. If this good weather holds up I might take a wee visit on Monday or Tuesday.
I still have all original emails and notes of names.
Dave
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No problem daval
I hadn't realised time had flown so fast either until I was surfing for Govan today and somehow landed on your other cemetery thread. You've done yourself proud with those photos - they're brimers. Fingers and toes are crossed that you find something for this thread.
Cheers,
Rena
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Thanks for that compliment Rena. Much appreciated.
All the more incentive for me to go out and take some more.
Dave
PS I'd have said brammers. But hey, it's a local thing. ;)
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Hi Dave,
I was just wondering if you knew where I could write to, in order to find out if my grandfather was buried in Sighthill.
Janice
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Hi Janice
Some of the headstones in Sighthill are listed on here:
http://www.memento-mori.co.uk/57.pdf
Kirsty
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momento-mori is a great site but Sighthill is massive and difficult to search for a specific grave without details of the lair.
You could try contacting :
Cemeteries & Crematoria Registrar
20 Trongate
Glasgow
G1 5ES
Phone:0141 287 3961
E-mail: les(at)glasgow.gov.uk
(replace (at) with @
*Modified 18 Nov 2009
Murray actually gives link to this in reply #16
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Thank you both for your help. It is much appreciated.
Janice
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Hi Rena,
I realise yours is an old post but are you still interested?
I posted about Sighthill yesterday.
Dave
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,263026.msg1483956.html#msg1483956
Hi Dave,
Yes, I'm definitely still interested and I'm thanking my lucky stars the letter about my father's paternal line caught your eye. I've repeated the names below from my original email.
Section 8 No 103 &104 F
Burial Date, 4 Oct 1871, Sect 103 F
Agnes Crum, Burial No. 90000490, Aged 79
Burial Date, 1 Oct 1887, Sect 104 F
John Crum, Stationer, Burial No. 90000489, Aged 70
Burial Date, 14 Feb 1922, Sect 104 F
Lillias Crum, dau, Burial No. 90000492, Aged 67
---
I haven't managed to find where tomb owner's wife, or 3 of his spinster daughters or his bachelor brother is:
Mrs John Crum (ms Jane MacKenzie) 1824-1866/70
Thomas Crum 1818 - September 1871
---
Where did they bury 'influential' people? This is John's cousin, she was sister-in-law of Robt Dalglish, Glasgow MP:-
Lillias Crum (Mrs Andrew Stephenson Dalglish) 1794-1867
Andrew Stephenson Dalglish, industrialist, 1793-1858
both died at Hillhead Hse, don't know where they're buried.
--
It goes without saying that I'd rather you not walk passed any other Crum headstone without photographing it ::)
Thanks a million
Cheers,
Rena
Hi Rena,
I just spotted the name Crum on this thread.
The Crum family had a paper mill at Thornliebank which is Renfrewshire on the outskirts of Glasgow.
Thornliebank Library was donated by the family.
regards,Billy.
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Janice M and anyone else looking for Sighthill burials or any in Glasgow. I don't know how far you've got since posting but if you haven't found what you're looking for I too as KirstyG said would recommend you ask momento-mori. He went the whole extra mile in searching for the last resting place of my Great great great Grandfather buried there 1848. ALso look in the Mitchells Library but his experience is invaluable and he really is so reasonable for the amount of work he puts in.
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Just nit-picking, but 'he' at momento.mori.co.uk is actually a 'she'.
:D
Dave
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;D Not wanting to rouse the disguise! ;)
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LOL.
Oh dear! I've just reduced the number of potential candidates for who momento-mori is, to just under 50% of the population.
Assuming 'she' lives in Scotland, that's about 2.5 million.
Sorry if I've given the game away.
:P
Dave
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We're making it sound as though the identity of momento.mori is a huge secret but it's not.
I think anonymity is preferred so that enquiries go through momento-mori rather than directly.
Janice, regardless of where you get your info, I'd be interested as to how you get on. Particularly if you get a positive result, as it is useful to know to pass on to others.
Dave
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Lets go 50/50 - ask the audience or a friend ;D No matter Momento-mori did great for me and mine. I will recommend anytime.
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No matter Momento-mori did great for me and mine. I will recommend anytime.
Agreed.
I can't enthuse enough about how helpful and useful the site is.
It's just that Sighthill is not the easiest cemetery to search and a bit away from m-ms usual haunting grounds (pun intended).
Dave
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Good one though! MM does seem to rise to a good challenge very well with a great deal of knowledge and expertise. I still can't thank MM enough nor can my Mum whose cause started all of this back in November 2008 and then into Jan/Feb this year. Thank you
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For Rena, there are Crum's buried in the Ramshorn Kirkyard in Ingram Street, I remember noting a stone there as there is a shop of that name in the High Street......Skoosh.
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I will let you know if I find anything out.
Thanks again.
Janice
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Hi Billy,
Sorry I haven't responded before now but it was only by chance that I saw this thread again on the "Welcome" page.
Thanks for taking the trouble and time to tell me about the Crum family of Thornliebank. I haven't managed to find a link to that family but I haven't run out of possibilities - yet :)
Cheers,
Rena
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For Rena, there are Crum's buried in the Ramshorn Kirkyard in Ingram Street, I remember noting a stone there as there is a shop of that name in the High Street......Skoosh.
Skoosh!!!
I'm grateful for your eagle eyes! It must be fate that I came across this thread today. One of my ancestors had a registered address in Ingram Street 1847 so that might be a possible resting place for an earlier generation and/or his cousins.
Thanks for leaving the note for me.
Cheers,
Rena in Lancashire
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Rena, The Ramshorn was where the Glasgow Merchants were buried until lack of space caused the Necropolis, above the Cathedral, to be opened. They must have had a few bob, your Crums, I was tempted to make a crack about "Crumbs" but managed to desist! The church is now an Arts Centre and the area tarted up. It's not on mementomori, I'm afraid, but it is in the city centre......Skoosh.
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Hello again Skoosh,
Rena Crum thanks you for desisting the crack about Crumbs ;D although she wishes her branch had managed to catch a few gold & silver crumbs from the rich branch's table ;D The name with various spellings (e.g. Cram) is found in ancient settlements by rivers all over Europe. I believe the full surname used to be Crumbiewelle (the name now known as Cromwell).
Hmm, I wonder if the monument belongs to the branch where the male line died out and it was eventully decided that the estate should go to a female cousin so long as her husband took the surname Crum (I believe my grandmother made an unsuccessful claim on behalf of her son John Crum - and wouldn't I like to get my hands on the letter and the scores of other John Crum claims ;D).
Thanks again, much appreciated.
Rena
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Rena, if the weather was a bit better I'd nick into town and have a look in the Ramshorn for you, if you're in no hurry, I'll get round to it!.......Skoosh.
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Hello again Skoosh,
Rena Crum thanks you for desisting the crack about Crumbs ;D ........
Rena
Oh, you've no idea how close Rena ;D
Dave
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Hello again Skoosh,
Rena Crum thanks you for desisting the crack about Crumbs ;D ........
Rena
Oh, you've no idea how close Rena ;D
Dave
And you've no idea how fortunate some people are that their parents gave them good manners ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Rena, if the weather was a bit better I'd nick into town and have a look in the Ramshorn for you, if you're in no hurry, I'll get round to it!.......Skoosh.
aw thanks Skoosh - remembering what this year's weather has been like, I look forward to Summer 2010 when hopefully the sun remembers to shine long enough for the muddy grass to dry up.
Cheers, Rena
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Rena, just checking "Black's Surnames" for the origins of the Scottish Crum's, "From Macilchrum, common in Dumbarton 17th & 18th centuries, Kilbarchan 1653 and Mary Crum, Whithorn 1786, possible connection to Cromb".....Skoosh.
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Rena, there is a post on "scotfamtree" at present which features the Crumm's of Thornliebank, it's under Tanhill, worth a wee look.....Skoosh.
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Reinstated by Moderator
Quote from: daval57 on Saturday 20 October 07 20:23 BST (UK)
Hi all.
Recently discovered my great grandmother is buried here so in the next couple of weeks, weather permitting, I am going to take a look for her grave.
If anyone else has ancestors that they know are buried there, give me the details and I'll have a look and take photos and MI.
Depending on the response I get, I MIGHT open my search for people that are only possibly buried there.
PLEASE DON'T WASTE TIME POSTING GUESSES FOR THE TIME BEING. I will not respond.
Dave
Hi Dave,
If it dries up anytime soon, any chance you could do my McLeods?
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Hi Dave, you did such a fantastic job with my GWD and Eliza his wife. I can't remember if that 'dusty old ledger' gave any light on the 'Ramsays/Ramseys' though. If you are ever able to look at it again or can recall, they remain a mystery. (Incidentally, Sarah Thomson who married GSWD has turned up in Melbourne General Cemetery, Aus alone- died 14/04/1897)
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Rena, there is a post on "scotfamtree" at present which features the Crumm's of Thornliebank, it's under Tanhill, worth a wee look.....Skoosh.
thanks Skoosh
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Rena, I took a trip to the Ramshorn but failed to find the stone for Crum yet its in there somewhere, the cemetery has been considerably tarted up, the Council have planted ivy etc' which is covering some of the stones. Why don't you post here for Crum/The Ramshorn and see if somebody comes up with the transcription......Skoosh.
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thanks for trying skoosh. I do hope they haven't planted ivy that digs feelers into the stone!!!
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Rena, try this site, http://www.memento-mori.co.uk there are some Crums in the Necropolis which is where the better-off moved to when the Ramshorn was full......Skoosh.
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aw skoosh that's really nice of you to follow up. I'm pleased to say that I've already got the information and photographs from the www.memento-mori.co.uk website.
I hope your kind act is returned to you many times - what goes around comes around eh?
Merry Christmas and a fruitful New Year :)
Rena
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Hello Readers
I have just picked up info on my 2x Grt Grandparents..
David Morland & Elizabeth Morland Nee Kinnon
Elizabeth Morland her interment of Sighthill Cemetery as follows:
Date: 14 April 1927
Name of deceased: Elizabeth Morland
Designation: Mother of James Morland
Address of deceased: 129 Hospital Street
Number: 4
Class: H
Years: 74
Date of death: 11 [April]
Date of funeral: Thursday 14 April
Hour: 3.15
Number of scrip: D966
Number of lair: 51
Class number: 7.
Confirm that it was purchased on 21 June 1886 by David Morland, Engineer of 18 Naburn Street. I can confirm that the following interments are listed:
Date Description
15 Jul 1916 1 adult [Alexander Buchanan, brother of Arthur Buchanan, 129 Hospital Street]
18 Oct 1918 1 adult [William S. Dunlop, husband of Maggie Dunlop, 288 Cumberland Street]
14 April 1927 1 adult [Elizabeth Morland]
24 April 1928 1 adult [David Morland].
Is there a map for this Cemetery that can help?
Does anyone have access to further information and images of this Cemetery?
I am based in NZ and plan on being in Scotland in June this year.. It would be wonderful if anyone can offer some guidance as to the layout of the Cemetery in advance to arriving.. I plan on heading to this sacred ground
Many thanks for any further information
Regards
Scott Morland
NZ
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Hi I am new on here been to sighthill cemetery Glasgow today looking for my family a Mr John crum. But sadly didn't come across it all I found out it was in section 8 shame glass was so over grown
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Hi I am new on here been to sighthill cemetery Glasgow today looking for my family a Mr John crum died 1887. But sadly didn't come across it all. And travel all the way from Hull East Yorkshire . I found out it was in section 8 ,shame grass was so over grown in all of the cemetery not looked after at all.
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Vicky, welcome to RootsChat :)
There is only one death showing in 1887 on SP so likely him given the details. Also the info on this thread.
There is this memorial at Sighthill www.findagrave.com/memorial/194422918/john-crum
Monica
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Well found, Monica.
Interments
1 Oct 1887, John Crum
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C34W-2999-4
6 July 1867
Jeane(?) McK Crum, wife of John Crum, 419 St Vincent St
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS54-M94H-7
Struggling with her in the death indexes!
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"Script Book"
6 July 1867
John Crum, Stationer
1 Lair 8.F.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ9-DKXY
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Thank you information about the grave it's a pity I couldn't find it when me and my mum went on Friday. Shame we are going home on Monday back to Hull.
Will have to come back to Glasgow to try again
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Well Vicky, Glasgow apparently has more parks than Paris and millions of graves, the days when this was all kept well manicured are long gone. Eat or heat is most folks priority and letting the grass grow is more environmentally sound anyhow. My local park hasn't seen the mower yet, a farmer comes in from East Kilbride every back-end and cuts it gratis to feed the cattle.
I have gt grandparents, I assume, in Sighthill as they lived across the road, would be astonished if they have anything as grand as the Crum Stone ;D, but if you check the index box for Crum you will find that oor Rena is off the Glasgow Crum's and you might get some Crum's from her table!
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Thank you will check it out
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Hi Vicky,
Welcome to rootschat.
I'm from Hull, my surname was "Crum" and I have the Sighthill photos taken by the generous and late apanderson: see here:-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=159355.msg2014880#msg2014880
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Hello thank you so much for the message .if I have got this right with the information I have got
Mr John crum was My great great grandad, My dad's dad was called Allan Cameron mckenzie crum
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Hello thank you so much for the message .if I have got this right with the information I have got
Mr John crum was My great great grandad, My dad's dad was called Allan Cameron mckenzie crum
Allan was one of my father's older brothers. My father was the youngest of the boys, his name was Donald M'kenzie Crum. You must be Ian's daughter.
I will send you a private message.
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Well found, Monica.
Interments
1 Oct 1887, John Crum
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C34W-2999-4
6 July 1867
Jeane(?) McK Crum, wife of John Crum, 419 St Vincent St
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS54-M94H-7
Struggling with her in the death indexes!
The death cert does not include her name. The only information on the cert is that a male passerby found a lady outside Quarter Ironworks. There is a note that her parents were Donald and Ann Mackenzie and in the name column there is a faint word followed by a question mark = "married?". A day later the Glasgow Herald had a confirmation entry from her husband John Crum that she had died. Jane was born 1924 and the 1841 census has her noted as a "miner" living with her father, a blacksmith.
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Well Vicky, Glasgow apparently has more parks than Paris and millions of graves, the days when this was all kept well manicured are long gone. Eat or heat is most folks priority and letting the grass grow is more environmentally sound anyhow. My local park hasn't seen the mower yet, a farmer comes in from East Kilbride every back-end and cuts it gratis to feed the cattle.
I have gt grandparents, I assume, in Sighthill as they lived across the road, would be astonished if they have anything as grand as the Crum Stone ;D, but if you check the index box for Crum you will find that oor Rena is off the Glasgow Crum's and you might get some Crum's from her table!
Bests,
Skoosh.
lol Skoosh - Vicki certainly did get some Glaswegian Crums from my table and it won't be long before I add the Crumbs and Crumbies of Dunbartonshire. Apparently the port in Dunbartonshire had more business than Glasgow, until Glasgow reduced its pricing and exports, imports and factories moved to Glasgow.
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Well Rena, Dumbarton was a Royal Burgh before Glasgow as Glasgow was a Burgh of Regality, being under the Archbishop. Glasgow's trade with the American colonies was hampered as the Clyde wasn't deep enough for the ships which Glasgow at first chartered from Whitehaven in Cumbria. The Toon Cooncil offered Dumbarton the chance of being Glasgow's port which they laughingly turned down.. "Oh how they laughed!" ;D.
Plan B, was building our own port & Port Glasgow was the successful result. The volume of traffic became such that unloaded cargoes of tobacco onto barges bound for the Forth & Clyde canal caused such a traffic-jam that deepening the Clyde right up to the Broomielaw was finally accomplished.
Dumbarton, the Royal Burgh, languished into a kinda "Sleepy Hollow!" with The Lang Dyke constructed, by John Golborne an Englishman, down the middle of the Clyde off Dumbarton to deepen the channel where formerly cattle could cross at low tide and which then became deep enough for the Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth.
The Lang Dyke had a notice thereon ordering ships to "Dead Slow!" and Glesga folk on holiday "Doon the Watter!" laughingly thought that Dead Slow applied to the natives of Dunbarton, the toon that never made it! "Oh how they laughed!" ;D
Anyhow I will continue to pay my council tax towards the upkeep of your Crum burial plots, fat chance of any crumbs from the ex-pats, as you folks call yoursels. ;D
http://www.flickr.com/photos/dshirres/4949816382
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Hi Skoosh, Thanks for the information and the link. You definitely have more birds in your area than I do stuck halfway up a Lancashire mountain.
All cemeteries can apply to the National Lottery for funding, which is what Kirk Michael Trust on the Black Isle have done - and as for ex pats not paying their way. You've just read that a Crum descendant visited Glasgow and probably had to pay for food and parking fees ;D
As for the Dunbarton Crums - I still haven't untangled (and will probably never untangle) which John lived, who died, and who married who, and which widower married again. Additionally; I believe one John suffered the loss of his three little lads, William, Robert and John. He moved along the Clyde to Dunbartonshire and replaced all three boys.... he then had another two boys baptised with the name John"! which meant he had John, Jackie and wee Jackie. I've only been following one of those boys plus his brothers Robert and William. William's daughter married into the Robert Dalglish family, which is where my grandfather, his son and his grandson acquired the name "Andrew Stephenson Dalglish Crum" commonly known as "Steenie" ;D