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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Highway on Thursday 18 October 07 08:17 BST (UK)
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Just found out Family member was in the English Army and sent to France in WW1. He was William Hoey born 1893 Irish and livind in Dublin. When the War was over he came back to Ireland. What I would like to know is there any was I can find out about his Army and War record in the English Army. Dont know were he joined the Army but I would think it was in Dublin were he lived. I know nothing at all about his Army life. I think he was only in the Army during the War and was not hurt.
Hope some body can help.
Highway.
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you could start here if you had an idea of his number or regiment.Theres 24 William Hoeys which can be whittled down even less with no middle name and a few Royal Dublin Fusiliers and other Irish Regiments.They cost £3.50 to download you get 6 on a page
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/search-results.asp?searchtype=browserefine&query=first_name%3dwilliam%7clast_name%3dhoey&catid=10&pagenumber=1&querytype=1&mediaarray=*
help if i left link.
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Link to national archives medal card search http://www.rootschat.com/links/03g/
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Just found out Family member was in the English Army and sent to France in WW1. He was William Hoey born 1893 Irish and livind in Dublin. When the War was over he came back to Ireland. What I would like to know is there any was I can find out about his Army and War record in the English Army. Dont know were he joined the Army but I would think it was in Dublin were he lived. I know nothing at all about his Army life. I think he was only in the Army during the War and was not hurt.
Hope some body can help.
Highway.
Not trying to be political but it was and is the British Army and at that time Ireland was still part of Britain with quite a number of Irish regiments in the British Army. There must be a good chance that he would want to serve in an Irish regiment though you can't guarantee that he would get any choice. My Welsh grandfather joined up whilst working in Yorkshire and asked to be transferred with another Welshman to a Welsh regiment, which was allowed.
Martin Briscoe
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Hi Highway
I don't want to sound too pedantic but just to avoid any misunderstandings can I just offer the constructive comment that this chap was British and served in the British Army. No big deal but sometimes when searching the use of the wrong terminology can foul up the results.
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Hello Highway,
Ancestry have British Army WW1 Pension records. You may be able to find your William Hoey there. The records include information on next of kin, etc. I have found mention of some of my Irish ancestors there.
Good luck!
Lizzie Jean. :D
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Thanks everybody for your help will take all that on board.
Thanks again.
Highway.
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Hi Highway
I don't want to sound too pedantic but just to avoid any misunderstandings can I just offer the constructive comment that this chap was British and served in the British Army. No big deal but sometimes when searching the use of the wrong terminology can foul up the results.
One of the last times the English had an army was around the Rising of '98 when Betsy Gray and the United Irishmen fought them at the Battle of Ballynahinch. Since the Act of Union in the early 1800s it has been the British Army. A great many Irishmen have been extremely proud to fight and give their lives for the British Army.
Christopher
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Hi Highway
I don't want to sound too pedantic but just to avoid any misunderstandings can I just offer the constructive comment that this chap was British and served in the British Army. No big deal but sometimes when searching the use of the wrong terminology can foul up the results.
One of the last times the English had an army was around the Rising of '98 when Betsy Gray and the United Irishmen fought them at the Battle of Ballynahinch. Since the Act of Union in the early 1800s it has been the British Army. A great many Irishmen have been extremely proud to fight and give their lives for the British Army.
Christopher
It is sad when you come across the war grave of someone who was almost certainly Irish (from the name) but had to serve in the British Army under a pseudonym presumably because of problems with the IRA back home.
Martin Briscoe
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Offhand, I can think of a few reasons why people joined up under an assumed name, for example, evading debts, responsibilities, running away from home, deserting spouse. Fear of IRA reprisal was probably the least likely reason.
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Offhand, I can think of a few reasons why people joined up under an assumed name, for example, evading debts, responsibilities, running away from home, deserting spouse. Fear of IRA reprisal was probably the least likely reason.
Most of the ones that I have seen with an alternative name have been Irish names. So either there are a higher proportion of Irish people "evading debts, responsibilities, running away from home, deserting spouse" or there is another reason.
It is not huge numbers but you do see them when you have visited a thousand or so war graves.
Martin Briscoe
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And that's the basis for your presumption that they were afraid of the IRA? I think you mustn't fully understand how things were in Ireland at that time.
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Most of the ones that I have seen with an alternative name have been Irish names. So either there are a higher proportion of Irish people "evading debts, responsibilities, running away from home, deserting spouse" or there is another reason.
Martin Briscoe
Think it's possible that some of the soldiers with 'Irish' surnames could have been from families who lived in mainland U.K. for generations- think how many 'Irish' surnames there were in places like Liverpool, Cardiff, etc.
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just my 2d
i've never come across threats from the IRA being a reason to use an alias, i have certainly seen a lot of alias's used in 1914/5 and aghadowey quite rightly says there were tons of 'irish' names common in the mainland UK
soldiers of both sides of the political division fought and died together as brothers
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I always thought that the Black and Tans and B Specials were the most hated. A lot of players from both sides used service in HM Forces as "training"...
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I always thought that the Black and Tans and B Specials were the most hated. A lot of players from both sides used service in HM Forces as "training"...
probably right mate, but then we're not talking about WW1 :)
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The players using the Forces as training went on through the ages... ;)
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I always thought that the Black and Tans and B Specials were the most hated.
Neither the Black 'n' Tans nor the B Specials were part of the regular army and weren't set up until around 1920, well after the end of WW1.
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I was just using them as examples of "hate" figures....The main thrust of my points were to agree with points raised...not least by your good self! ;)
My other half has a VERY "Celtic Fringe" sounding name....All of her lot certainly served in the British Army...
One mustn't forget that the UVF started as volunteer Kitchener bn's...
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This being an item in the WW1 section, I think that for the sake of accuracy it is necessary to distinguish between Crown forces that existed during the period in question and those that didn't. Incidentally, the 'Tans and the B Specials were set up as supplementary to the Police. Many of the republican volunteers would have had relatives, even siblings, in the regular army.
I might as well take this opportunity to air my other gripe about this thread, i.e. that although Irish people born at that time would have been citizens of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, people in Ireland usually see a clear distinction between "Great Britain" (the combination of England, Scotland and Wales) and the UK which included Ireland. There might not have been any official distinction between the two terms, but I find it just a little irksome to read that my ancestors were British. I don't mean to offend anyone but I can't find a more diplomatic way of saying that. :)
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The term British tends to refer to people born in Great Britain.
I must be an Irish member of the United Kingdom as I'm not an English, Scots or Welsh person 8)
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Leaving aside what should be the "correct" term re Irish/English/British/citizen of the UK, for purely practical reasons when it comes to ancestor hunting it's necessary to use the official terminology or whatever term was used at the time.
You always need to know (1) where the records are to be found and (2) what search terms to use.
For example, looking for a Irish soldier ancestor in WW1 or before then of course its important to realise you're searching for British Army records located in the British National Archives.
As Frazer said, likewise I don't mean to offend anyone by saying that. :)
But it means the difference between success and failure in a search, and honestly I have been asked questions before by people who wondered why they couldn't find anything! ::)
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With respect, Christopher, you can call yourself anything you wish, but the fact remains that Great Britain was and is the combined countries of England, Scotland and Wales. I have never seen any reference to the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland/Northern Ireland.
I don't intend getting into a political debate about this. I am merely pointing out that my own parents whose known ancestry was 100% indigenous Irish and who were born before Irish independence would have been deeply offended had anyone told them that they or their parents were British - just as offended, no doubt, as anyone born during the WW2 occupation of the Channel Islands would have been had they been told that they were German.
Like an earlier contributor, I don't want to be pedantic, but out of respect for the many Irish people who endured great suffering in the name of Irish freedom I feel bound to point out that it is an insult to them (and offensive to me) to have them declared forever British. In common with countless other Irish people, I had forebears who served in WW1 and they were no less Irish than I am regardless of the prevailing political situation at the time of their birth.
And Neil, I feel fairly confident that any Irish person researching their roots is well and truly aware that the country was part of the UK during WW1. You would, indeed, be researching the British archives but that still wouldn't make the person British.
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And Neil, I feel fairly confident that any Irish person researching their roots is well and truly aware that the country was part of the UK during WW1. You would, indeed, be researching the British archives but that still wouldn't make the person British.
It's not just Irish nationals with Irish roots Frazer, plenty of people all round the world research their Irish roots as I'm sure I don't need to tell you.
And I can assure you they're not all immediately aware of the historical Irish/British distinctions.
Anyway, I didn't intend getting into a political/historical debate.
Just making a practical point based on some people I've dealt with in the past.
:)
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I take your point, Neil. I agree that there's no need to get political but facts are facts, and my forebears shouldn't have their nationality denied due to the location of a set of archives. Common courtesy demands otherwise. I have enjoyed this thread.
Apart from our military ancestors, at least we have in common the fact that none of our countries could manage to produce a football team capable of participating in Euro 2008. (Soccer/football).
;)
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Apart from our military ancestors, at least we have in common the fact that none of our countries could manage to produce a football team capable of participating in Euro 2008. (Soccer/football).
How true, sadly ;D ;D
Speaking just for myself, whether it's football, rugby or anything else I always tend to identify with the Celtic nations over England. That's my west Cornish roots coming out!
8)
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Well, just to keep the pot boiling, I've fished out the Attestation papers of my great uncle who served in the Royal Dublin Fusiliers. (Born in Co. Cork)
He joined in 1898, and printed on the front page are a number of questions to be answered before attestation, the third of which is:
Are you a British subject? and the reply was "Yes".
So, he was Irish, but considered British too, and why not?
I'm off down the pub now...
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Are you a British subject? and the reply was "Yes".
So, he was Irish, but considered British too, and why not?
The important words here being "subject" and "considered". That pot is stone cold. Next time try stirring.......but you'll need a strong spoon.
Enjoy your drink. ;)
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Next time try stirring.......but you'll need a strong spoon.
You guessed my intention Frazer, but didn't take the bait! :)
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those of you with a British passport........it reads ..the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
It appears that the "North" is treated as seperately from Great Britain. (Quire right too ;-) )
Try saying you are Welsh to an official...he will write "British"
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I suppose then really we need a sensible and convenient adjective for "citizen of the United Kingdom" :)
Any advance on UK-ish? ::)
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Hi Highway
I just read your post, and was stunned to find a reference to a Hoey from Dublin. We have some of these too, and I would love to take it further, but on a new topic about Hoeys!
Just for the record though, the records at Kew are for regiments from all of these islands - England, Scotland, Wales and all of Ireland, which during WW1 was all one. These are some of the best sources I have had for my Irish forebears.
I can vouch that there are records for at lewast one William Hoey - I will look again at my copy - and I think two or more.
I will send you a pm when I post so that you know where to find it.
Best wishes.
Emms.
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I suppose then really we need a sensible and convenient adjective for "citizen of the United Kingdom" :)
Any advance on UK-ish? ::)
:-X :-X :-X
I only checked this section because I'm trying to sort out my military ancestors. Wonder why I get the feeling there won't be much help forthcoming now. ;D