RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: liverpool annie on Monday 15 October 07 15:26 BST (UK)
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Well I was hoping that the two threads "Are You Sitting Comfortably" and "Robert William Stead" would be stickied so they could be kept up at the top of the page ... and I'm sure they will be ! :)
You all know the reason for the new thread ....... and I'm sorry if people are upset .... I thought locking it would give us a chance to catch up with the information we have and getting it into some semblence of order - we're going to be in the same boat .... but I realise that people want to be able to contribute !.... hence this new thread !!
Shaun J would be more than happy to give access rights to the website for those who are interested - as it would only make sense if we carry on updating it for new information
Annie :)
Moderator Comment:
we are trying to avoid too many stickies, but I'll sticky this post,
and add links to the other two :)
Topic: Are you sitting comfortably ? then I'll begin !!
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,206958.0.html
and
Topic: Robert William STEAD (1896 West Derby -1926 Gateacre)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,261805.0.html
which is a summary of the 44 pages here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,206958.0.html
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As Annie says there is now a Stead family data website which we are keeping passworded but I will give access rights to any Rootschatters who are interested.
If you'd like to have access just PM me and I'll reply with the URL and password.
Bear in mind that the data on the site needs a bit of updating (which Reiver is helping me with) and that will be done over the next few days.
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Annie
Is it possible to list/bring together what you think the line(s) is/are we ought to take now? Rootschatters could then volunteer their investigative skills / photographic skills / etc in different areas.
Obviously it would be nice to have photographs of members of the family but what about addresses? My photographic skills are somewhat linited but I coulld for example, direct someone - they may know already - to the Bucklow places already mentioned (Altrincham / Sale/Stretford).
I am trying to build on what has already been done on Robert's fathers family - Robert's uncles , aunts and cousins. Is that OK? Maybe someone else is already working on that side?
Obviously I'll report progress on here. Shaun may then be able to take it from here, and feed back any questions or input that he has.
I hope this makes sense. I'm sure you and others will let me know if not.
Reiver
PS Are stickies the same as smileys?
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Hi Reiver !
Thank you for all the time and effort you're putting into this .... it's wonderful ! :)
I'm wondering if it's best to just let people post what they find - the way we were - and hopefully we can keep track of what's being found - to put onto the website !
Dawn send me this about Bootle .... so there's another we can cross off the list !! :)
Hi Annie
I just had an email from Thornton re Bottle cemetery.
Quote
I have gone through the records for Bootle Cemetery (from January 1926
through to Dec 1926) There is no trace of a Robert William Stead being
buried in the Cemetery at that time.
He's not there either
Dawn
Don't worry about the stickies ...... we'll just use smileys ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Hi Annie and eveyone :) :) :)
Robert's father was William Harley Stead, born in Leicester in 1857. Much of this was started by Mary some time back. So I hope there are one or two new bits here.
William Harley's eldest sister Harriett was born in 1828/29. That is, she was 28 (twenty eight years older than William ??? ??? ??? In 1861 in Leicester William is 4 yrs old, no mother is present, but his father also William is aged 60 Earlier censuses throw up a mother Eliza and FreeBMD throws up the death of an Eliza Stead in 1858 - the year after William was born. In the earlier censuses father William was only a couple of years older than his wife Eliza. So son William was born in 1857 and his parents were 56 and 54 ??? ??? ???
I'm trying to prove me wrong :) :) :) :) Can anyone else?
Mary had found that Harriett, William's eldest sister, had married a Richard Butterworth in 1851. They had several children, one at least married. All would be first cousind of Robert.
I'll keep going.
Reiver
PS If anyone does fancy checking on the above note that Stead or Steads seem almostt interchangeable :) :)
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There is now a Summary here .....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,261805.0.html
I'll try and catch up with the days results in the evenings .........
check there often for the next exciting installment !! ;D ;D
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Reiver,
There certainly seems to be something odd about William Harley Stead's birth. The apparent mother would seem too old, and in the GRO births for Leicester 2Q 1857 there are these 2 entries:
Harley, William Harley Leicester 7a 191
Stead, William H Leicester 7a 191
William's sisters at the time of his birth would have been about 29, 19, and 14.
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Have just updated the data site to include links to these threads, updated data on Frank Winnard Hurst and Elizabeth Neil Grant (thanks Reiver) , a short intro and Michel's photo of the tag.
Anyone interested who doesn't yet have access to the site please send me a PM for access details.
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Thanks Shaun
Re William Harley Stead (Robert's father)
In 1861 he wsa 4 years old. His father (William) was 60 and his mother (Eliza) would have been 58. It would seem that William Harley could NOT have been their son. The sequence on the 1861 census in Leicester was William (father) 60; Fanny Maria (23); William Harley (4) and Angela (18). It seems probable - at this stage :) - that William Harley was the illegitimate son of Fanny (purely based on census sequence).
It may be worth getting the Birth Cerificate in due course to prove it.
So no brothers and sisters of William Harley Stead from whom to come forward. BUT Fanny Maria and Angela, although they did remain single, did have older siblings. There is some dara about this that MaryA established that is now on the Data Site that ShaunJ has created and which you can access if you PM him for the password.
Regards
Reiver
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Hi All
Was William Harley really a nephew???? To whom?
1871
Liverpool RG10/3756 F 118 P 1
Jno Thos Jarvis H 30 Shipping Clerk Oadby
Betty Jarvis W 38 Leicester
Jno Wm Jarvis S 10 Scholar Oadby
Alice Jarvis D 9 -do- Oadby
Wm Harley Stead Nephew 14 Sailor Leicester
The county in each case is Leicestershire
Regards
Reiver
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Hi Reiver
Just PM'd you details! Will just quickly summarise here for everyone since I've already looked it up!
Betsy JARVIS was nee STEADS, I believe - she was the sister named Elizabeth in 1841 and 1851 that you mention.
Marriage: Jun Qtr 1860 - Blaby District, Leicestershire
John Thomas JARVIS and Betsy STEADS
In 1891, Anglea STEAD is visioing this same JARVIS family ;D
The son, John William JARVIS never marrried, at least not up to 1901.
The daughter Alice JARVIS married John TITTERINGTON in West Derby 1887.
They had 2 children, John Bertram TITTERINGTON and Dorothy May TITTETRINGTON
Cheers ;D
AMBLY
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Marriage in Blaby 2Q 1860 7a 108
Jarvis John Thomas
Steads Betsy
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1861: Oadby, Leicestershire
Ref: RG9 /P 2255 / F 85 / Pg 9
Address: Meeting Lane
Head: Priscilla JARVIS 54, Wid, Farmer 41 acres, employing 1 man, b Hungwiton, Leic.
Dau: Mariah JARVIS 17, unm, b Oadby Leic.
Son: John T JARVIS 20, marr, Farmers Son, b Oadby Leic
Dau in Law: Betsy JARVIS marr, Farmers Wife, b Leicester, Leic.
Grandson: John W JARVIS 6 mhs, b Oadby Leic.
Lodger: Lydia R BLACKWELL 10, Scholar, b Leicester, Leic.
Visitor: Sarah SMITH 10, Scholar, b Leicester, Leic.
Servant: Richard SMITH 65, unm, Carter, b Thurmaston Leic.
1871: Liverpool St Matthews, (Scotland Ward) , Lancashire
Ref: RG10 / P 3756 / F 118 / pg 1
Address: 4 Wilbraham Street
Head: John Thos JARVIS 30, Shipping Clerk, b Oadby, Leic.
Wife: Besty JARVIS 38, b Leicester, Leic.
Son: John Wm, JARVIS 10, b Oadby, Leic.
Dau: Alice JARVIS 9, b Oadby, Leic.
Nephew: Wm Harley STEAD 14, Sailor, b Leicester, Leic.
So - if William Harley STEAD is their truly Nephew , then William's mother is a sibling of Betsy.....and Besty is the sister of Harriet, Fanny and Angela.......
1881: Liverpool, Lancashire
Ref: RG11 / P 3593; F 128; Pg 106
Address: 24 Virgil Street
Head: John Tho. JARVIS 40, Shipping Clerk, b Oadby, Leic.
Wife: Betsy JARVIS 48, b St Margaret, Leic
Dau: Alice JARVIS 19, unm, b Oadby, Leic.
Lodger: Thomas H....son JUDD or DODD? 29, unm, Engine Fitter, Ayrshire Scotland
1891: Rowley Park, Castle Church, West Staffordshire
Ref: RG12; P 2138; F 95; Pg 17
Address: 2 Tixall Villas
Head: John T JARVIS 50, Shipping Clerk, b Oadby, Leic.
Wife: Betsy JARVIS 59, b Oadby, Leic.
Son: John W JARVIS 30, unm, Organising Visitors of Church Schools, b Oadby, Leic.
Visitor: Angela STEAD 48, School Mistress, b Leicester, Leic.
The 1891 visitor, is actually Betsy's sister?
Believe John Thomas JARVIS may have died very shortly after the 1891 Census, Jun Qtr 1891 Stafford, age 51
Believe Betsy JARVIS may have died, Dec Qtr 1899 Ormskirk (this was the Registration district which covered Formby - she may have gone to live with her daughter Alice after JT died).
The son John William JARVIS appears to have not married as late as 1901 age 40, where he is in Chelsea, as a Schools Head Master .
Believe the JARVIS daughter Alice, married :
Dec Qtr 1887 West Derby - Alice JARVIS & John TITTERINGTON
1891: Great Crosby, Lancashire
Ref: RG12; P 2983; F 87; PPg 47
Address: 8 Cambridge Court (near Millions COurt!)
Head: John TITTERINGTON 29, Schoolmaster, b Liverpool Lancs
Wife: Alice TITTERINGTON 29, b Oadby Leic.
Son: John B TITTERINGTON 2, b Liverpool Lancs
Servant: Jane HUNTER 25, unm, General Domestic Servant, b b Liverpool Lancs
1901: Formby, Lancashire
Ref: RG13; P 3532; F 77; Pg 1.
Address: Old Town Lane
Head: John TITTERINGTON 39, School Master & Science Teacher, b
Wife: Alice TITTERINGTON 39, b Oadby, Leic.
Dau: Dorothy May TITTERINGTON 7, b Formby, Lancashire
Servant: Elizabreth GALLIGAN 20, unm, General Domestic Servant, b Derby, Derbyshire
The son, John Bertram TITTERINGTON, is I think at school in Staffs in 1901
cheers
AMBLY
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Brilliant AMBLY :) :) :) :)
I was just struggling with her.
Next for Joseph :) :) I'll concentrate on Harriett - unless anybody else is already?
Reiver
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Can I have some help please?
A street that is/was in Kirkdale,Liverpool in 1881.
Reads like Pelops or Peloss Street.
Enumerator did it after Ajax Street.
Reiver
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Hi Reiver.....
PELOPS STREET KIRKDALE
Tazzie
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Thanks Tazzie
I knew somebody would know :)
Reiver
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Again - a street question - but in Birmingam
What appears in 1881 to be Muntry Street, Aston.
It was the home of a 'cousin' of William Harley.
His name was Euclid Butterworth and son of Richard Butterworth and Harriett.
Can we agree - unti proved one way or another - that William Harley was indeed the illegitimate son of Fanny Maria? Or not? :)
Reiver
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Hi ......
Does it look like Muntz Street?
I found reference to Muntz Street as being the place where Birmingham City had their first ground in 1877 and says it is in the area of Small Heath.
Tazzie
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Reiver,
While you are looking at Euclid Butterworth, just a detail to note - I found him in a 1887 Yorkshire directory as Master of Warley Bd School, Sowerby Bridge, home in Regent Sq.
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I found this John Titterington in 1894 !
John Titterington - Senior Boys' Master - Stanley Rd Kirkdale
liverpool-schools.co.uk/Teachers__1894.xls
KIRKDALE INDUSTRIAL & RAGGED SCHOOL FOR BOYS & GIRLS - Plus 2 Homes, 2 MAJOR STREET STANLEY ROAD, LIVERPOOL, LANCASHIRE.
This is the only one of the kind in England. It is a refuge and reformatory for beggar and vagrant children and was founded in 1856 by the Rev. Cason Major Lester M.A (incumbent of St May's & St Lawrence's Kirkdale) who is the honorary general superintendent.
The School is available for 750 children in conjunction with this school which has no less than twenty-four certified homes, in which the most necessitous of the children are lodged, there is also a girls home in Walton Road., in which there is room in all the establishments for 860 children 1,500 meals are given each day and numbers are clothed at a cost in all upwards of £6,000 yearly.
This is interesting too !
http://www.emanuensis.btinternet.co.uk/lester.htm
EDIT ....... Here's the son Ambly was talking about !
1901
St Chad's College Denstone Staffordshire
John Bertram Titterington 12 Pupil Liverpool Lancashire
RG13 Piece 2632 Folio 128 Page 6.
http://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/engine/theme/default.asp?theme=371&text=0
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Thanks both of you.
Tazzie I'll check it out
Shaun Highly probable. in 1891 he was a Cerificated Teacher living in Lofthouse with Carlton in the West Riding. His wife was a Cerificated Mistress. they had a four yeard old son called Euclid.
Best wishes
Reiver
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Sorry for butting in but this is so uncanny reiver asked for Pellops Street Kirkdale and in front of me is a census for 1901 for this very street My husbands ancestors were neighbours at the time of the people he is looking for living in number 3 Pellops Street
Edna
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Nice find Annie - it would be good if we could trace the Titterington line in the 20th century. What happened to John Bertram Titterington (b. Liverpool c. 1888) and Dorothy May Titterington ( b. Formby 1893) I wonder ?
Edna, I know that uncanny feeling - I was born and bred in the Waterloo/ Crosby/ Blundellsands area just a few miles north of Liverpool and a lot of the places we are encountering are very familiar to me.
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There's a marriage for Dorothy May 1915 ! ( now I'm so paranoid ... can we post it ?? )
Annie ::)
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Annie - we do have to be careful as we move into "may still be living" territory. I would suggest ( moderators please chip in ) that we set a bar here - not to name on this public thread anyone born within the last 100 years. So on that basis I don't see a problem with publishing details of a marriage in 1915, but a marriage in 1925 (say) would be more problematic.
I suggest for leads on people born within the last 100 years that people post on this board a message that they've found them without giving names (or addresses), then PM Annie and/or myself with the details and we'll put the data up on the secured website (to which I will continue to give access to interested researchers on a passworded basis on request).
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A couple more thank yous :)
Tazzie yes iti's Muntz Street in Aston
Clematised In 1881 Euclid Butterworth lived at Number 13 Pelops Street in Kirkdale.
Another street query please. Clusy Street, Walton-on.the.Hill Bootle How does that sound?
And a quick summary of where I am up to.
I've been following forward William Harley Steads aunts and uncles (Brothers and sisters of Fanny). I am up to 1891 on all the lines. Once I'm up to 1901 I'll post what I've got or at least a summary and pass the detail to Shaun if that's OK?
Regards
Reiver
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Walton on the Hill was not Bootle but Liverpool and I know of no Bootle Street of this name and Old Maps did not come up with anything are you sure you have the spelling right.
Edna
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OK ............ here's the skinny !! ;D
I asked Little Nell about posting and dates .... here's her reply !
This is not a hard and fast ruling since I have not consulted with any of the other mods, but I'm OK with a marriage in 1915. Heaven knows what metal or gemstone anniversary they' be celebrating now! Marriage in 1925 is also probably OK, but the children of such a marriages are probably different. I tend to think of when my parents were born (soon after 1925) and they are still alive.
So I'd suggest that it's OK for someone to say that they have found some children, but not give any details of names, years or places in public.
Annie :)
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hi all
Just to wack a cat amongst the pigeons so to speak........I recall someone asking a cemetry office somewhere - was it Thornton - re any burials of our Robert - dare i make him "ours" even on a temporary basis for 1926.
the reply came back that who ever had searched Jan - Dec 1926 without result
Could we go back to them and cheekily ask for whoever in authority to look at the first quarter of 1927 too.......reason being
A delay in buying a burial plot or even getting the finishing touches of a headstone.... if this modern world is anything to go by that could take over 2 months for a plot and over 10 months for a memorial.
Just a thought - going back into my box now!......turning over the stones that dont want to be turned
mair
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Ambly found a possible marriage for Dorothy ! :)
FreeBMD Marriage Index 1837-1983
Name - Dorothy M Titterington
Year of Registration - 1915
Quarter of Registration - Jul-Aug-Sep
Spouse's Surname - Hampton
District - West Derby
County - Lancashire
Volume - 8b
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Thanks Ambly. I followed that up on Lancs BMD and the husband of Dorothy M Titterington in 1915 was Edwin J HAMPTON . They married at Wavertree, Holy Trinity.
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I checked WW1 medals and CWGC for Edwin J Hampton .... I can't find him there !
but there is an EJ Hampton in the medals ( Durham Light Infantry ! ) ..... I'm just noting that for now !
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Hi I said I'd check on Clusy Street
1881 Census RG12/2979 f34 p16 Richard Butterworth
Definitely Walton-on-the-Hill, Lancashite. Doesn't say Bootle :) :) sorry.
Still looks like Clusy Street
Before the enumerator went down Clusy (?) Street he went down Makin(?) Street. Can you put me right please?
Regards
Reiver
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Makin Street still on the map but no Clusy Street but could it be Olney Street which is next to Makin Street as I cant find the census on Ancestry.
This is present day map
Edna
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I tried Cleary Clery O'Leary ....... I turned pages ... I can't get it Reiver ...... ::) ::)
Maybe we'd better sleep on it ... it might look different in the morning !! ;D ;D ;D
Annie :)
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I found this Shaun .... I know you LOVE these !!
http://website.lineone.net/~g3ory/index.html
Annie :)
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reiver the census was 1891 no wonder I couldnt find it you gave 1881 and it is Olney Street between Breeze Hill and County Road
Edna
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How silly of me :-[ :-[
Thanks Clematied.
Reiver
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Thanks Edna
I should read more carefully
My apologies - once again.
Reiver
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Hi Everyone!
Quote from Reiver: Can we agree - unti proved one way or another - that William Harley was indeed the illegitimate son of Fanny Maria? Or not?
WH born 1857 - Yes, I agree too ;D Fanny is most likely to be his mother given the 1861 Census. Probably not Betsy, since he was referred to as her Nephew in 1871. Probably not Angela (but it is possible she could have had a baby at 14 ish!), probably not Joseph's son, since WH was probably registered as a STEAD! And probably not Harriet since she married BUTTERWORTH in 1851.
Now hey, I may be onto something re Dorothy May TITTERINGTON! ;D
She who may be the Dorothy M who married Edwin J HAMPTON in 1915 in West Derby.....
1901: West Derby, St Mary the Virgin, Liverpool Lancashire
Ref: RG13 / P 3494 / F 149 / Pg 16
Address: 25 Winifred Street
Head: Edwin HAMPTON 40, Hotel Waiter, b Stone Staffs
Wife: Annie 38, b Dalston, London
Dau: Bessie 16, Music Teacher (works from home), b Liverpool
Son: Edwin J. 14, Office Boy (Cotton ....?, b Liverpool
Dau: Eva Kate 10, b Liverpool
Dau: Gladys M. 6, b Liverpool
Dau: Cecelia B. 1, b Isle of Man
I think this may be in or near the Bootle area ???
And here's the thing.....in a well known source (A) is a public tree of someone who has that HAMPTON family in it! The father of Edwin Snr is named James - which may be Edwin Jnrs middle name. The tree doesn't extend down beyond the father's name, but has links to the 1901 Census - so the tree owner maybe (probably? hopefully ) has a lot more information but not on web-site. The owner is still currently active - so with your collective approval - I will make contact and see if there is a connection to 'our' tree?
Cheers
AMBLY
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Go for it Ambly !! ... they can only say "no" can't they ?? ;D
Fingers - eyes and toes crossed !! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Annie :)
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Message has been sent!
Fingers crossed ;D
Cheers
AMBLY
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Good work Ambly. This is the birth record I think in 2Q 1887:
HAMPTON Edwin James West Derby 8b 530
Looking in the phonebooks I can see listings for Edwin J Hampton/Edwin James Hampton in Birkenhead until 1941.
In The Times 29 January 1951 there is a death notice for an Edwin James Hampton died 27 January 1951 at 17 Brooks Mews Mayfair - "dearly loved husband of Dorothy". Could be a different couple entirely of course.
Thanks for the Titterington link Annie I'll contact the site owners.
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1938 Kellys has Edwin James Hampton living in Bidston Road Birkenhead, a Director of Heaton Tabb & Co Ltd.
Heaton Tabb was a firm of decorators with offices at 55 Bold Street Liverpool and 6 Bidston rd Oxton, and a factory in Duke St
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Per the GRO index for 1Q 1951, the Edwin James Hampton mentioned in The Times death announcement was aged 63 - which would be right for the Edwin born in Liverpool in 1887.
(1Q 1951 Westminster 5c 602)
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Morning all.....
Have we looked at the Titterington web site they may have current knowledge of family going forwards from Johhn Bertram...or Dorothy May & Edwin.
Tazzie
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I've sent the Titterington site owner an email Tazzie.
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Heaton Tabb & Co Ltd appears to have been associated with shipbuilders Harland & Wolff and to have been fairly prominent in the business of fitting out ocean liners and public houses. The company was put into liquidation in 1964 and the notice in the Gazette of 20 March 1964 is signed by Edwin James Hampton, Director (presumably the son of Edwin and Dorothy).
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In answer to amblyWinifred Street is in the Kensington area of Liverpool further on than the city center and a few miles from Bootle so getting nearer to Birkenhead across the Mersey.
Hope this makes things clearer.
Edna
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Children of William STEAD(S) & Eliza:-
Harriett b c1828; Elizabeth b 1830; Joseph b 1830; Fanny Maria b 1837;Angela b 1842
AND William Harley b 1857 (poss /prob son of Fanny Maria)
The first four children are either brother/sisters or uncle/aunts of William Harley STEAD(S).
Elizabeth's family are being worked on at the moment.
Fanny Maria was single in 1901 and living on own means at 49, Liverpool Road, Birkdale aged 60. Cannot't find a death up to 1916 for a Fanny Maria in Liverpool via FreeBMD.
Angela STEAD's death is registered MarQ 1919 aged 76 in Ormskirk RD
That leaves Joseph and Harriette.
I have Joseph aged 20 with his parents on Red Crops/Red Cross Street,Leicester in the 1851 Census in Leicester. Joseph was a Bell Hanger like his father and was born in Leicester. I have not been able to move him forward as yet. 1851 RG107/2090 f717 p20 Note: Surname is STEADS not STEAD.
Harriette Anne is a totally different story :) :). I have a lot ot census transcriptions bringing her and her family through to 1901 – more than 20. Shall I post them here or send them in one way or another direct to Shaun?
I'll close this post here and summarise Harriett's family in another posting.
Regards
Reiver
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Hi Reiver !
You've been busy !! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Post everything here and then we can all see !! ;D ;D ( up to 1925 !! )
Annie :)
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Good news everyone!
I am in touch with a descendant of 'our' John Titterington's brother. He has confirmed that John Titterington and Alice Jarvis (Robert Stead's first cousin) do have living descendants in both UK and US, and he has their contact details. Over to Annie and Michel....
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Oh Shaun ... WONDERFUL news indeed !! ;D ;D
The one day that RootsChat is so slow .... is the day we want "our new relations " to read everything !! ::)
I'm all of a dither .... and can't wait for Michel to get the news !!
Updates as soon as we know something ............. !!
I'm a Happy Scouse now !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Heh Shaun....a break through at last.
first time I have manage to get back on line all day so fingers all crossed now ;D
Tazzie
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Superb news How do you spell we hayyyy ???? ;D ;D ;D ;D
He/She/they are descendats from Elizabeth's family? Is that right? I was about to semmarise initially on Harriette's. Shall I hold off for now, Annie?
Reiver
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Hi Reiver !
You did a lot of work my Friend ! .... post it .... :D
because you never know another family member may come along one day and be really grateful !!
Annie :)
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Yes Reiver, these living relatives are Elizabeth Stead(s) descendants. If you post the data on Harriette I'll include it in the gedcom and the website.
We intend to give the relatives access to all the information that Rootschatters have contributed to these threads in the last 9 months.
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I just found these ..... I thinking the first is a maybe ..... do you think it's possible ?? ............ or is it wishful thinking ?
Inscription 1 Of 3 For Surname STEAD
Of Your Charity
Pray For The Soul Of
John CRAHAN Who Died
March 2nd 1900 Aged 47 Years
Isabella STOTT Who Died
June 2nd 1900 Aged 43 Years
Ann FLYNN Who Died
September 5th 1900 Aged 2 Years
Bernard CONNOLLY Who Died
September 15th 1900 Aged 24 Years
Ellen HEANEY Who Died
September 19th 1900 Aged 37 Years
Henry O`NEIL Who Died
October 3rd 1900 Aged 2 Years
John WALMSLEY Who Died
October 3rd 1900 Aged 15 Months
Louisa O`NEIL Who Died
December 19th 1900 Aged 11 Months
Grave Number 4717
Section R.C. B/C
Peel Green Cemetery, Eccles, Salford
Grid Ref. SJ749976
Inscription 2 Of 3 For Surname STEAD
In Memory
Of
Martha DIXON Who Died
January 3rd 1902 Aged 53 Years
Frank BARBER Who Died
January 3rd 1902 Aged 6 Weeks
James DAWSON Who Died
January 13th 1902 Aged 37 Years
Frederick CLARE Who Died
January 21st 1902 Aged 46 Years
Samuel JOHNSON Who Died
January 22nd 1902 Aged 45 Years
Ernest R. KNIGHT Who Died
February 5th 1902 Aged 12 Months
Bertha SCOTT Who Died
February 18th 1902
Section N.C. C2
Peel Green Cemetery, Eccles, Salford
Grid Ref. SJ749976
Inscription 3 Of 3 For Surname STEAD
In Memory
Of
Jabez GRANTHAM Who Died
January 6th 1915 Aged 71 Years
Arthur BOTT Who Died
February 21st 1915 Aged 20 Years
Thomas DAVIES Who Died
February 26th 1915 Aged 29 Years
Elizabeth SHARPLES Who Died
March 12th 1915 Aged 78 Years
Annie THORLEY Who Died
June 30th 1915 Aged 15 Years
Lilian SAGEGOOD Who Died
July 29th 1915 Aged 4 Years
Section N.C. C2
Peel Green Cemetery, Eccles, Salford
Grid Ref. SJ749976
http://www.cemsearch.co.uk/paupers/paupers.php?name=stead&submit=Submit
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I meant to say I found these too ! ... but maybe they're a bit far !!
STEAD
One Person
One other Surname
In One Grave
A total of 3 People
http://www.cemsearch.co.uk/burnley/burnleyS.html
http://www.cemsearch.co.uk/burnley/burnley.html
STEAD
6 People
2 Other Surnames
In a total of 4 Graves
A total of 11 People
http://www.cemsearch.co.uk/blackburn/blackburnS.html
http://www.cemsearch.co.uk/blackburn/blackburn.html
STEAD
In 1 Grave
2 Other Surnames
A Total Of 8 People
http://www.cemsearch.co.uk/colne/colneS.html
http://www.cemsearch.co.uk/colne/colne.html
STEAD
6 People
3 Other Surnames
In 3 Graves
A Total Of 22 People
http://www.cemsearch.co.uk/preston/prestonS.html
http://www.cemsearch.co.uk/preston/preston.html
STEAD
3 People With This Surname
http://www.cemsearch.co.uk/wheatley/wheatleyS.html
http://www.cemsearch.co.uk/wheatley/wheatleylane.html
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Oh ! Oh! Oh1 ;D
(Memo to Trystan & Sarah - PLEASE can be have a Dancing SMILEY!!!))
Oh WOW!! AND YIPEE!! [/size] Well done!!
Hands up - who did a wee jig arounf their computer!?? Annie, put yer hand down, lass, I KNOW your were!!
I am jumping about, ! I can't sit still - I dropped me toast (jam side down) I got such a neat surprise! And the HAMPTONs were the right ones too and still live 'local' - maybe their descendant will know where Robert was buried!!!
Woohoo!! and....
cheers ;D ;D ;D
AMBLY
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Here goes :)
With some 20 odd Census records to detail plus IGI and FreeBMD entries a single posting is not going to fit all. I thought that I would post it in several chunks.
FreeBMD and IGI extracts
1841 1851 and 1861 Censuses
1871 and 1881 Censuses
1891 Census
1901 Census
Here are the IGI Extracts and FreeBMD stuff. I've omitted the Vol detail.
IGI Extract Baptisms – Children of William Stead and Elizabeth
Harriet Ann Stead(s) b 1828 bap 26 Feb 1837 Great Meeting Presbyterian, Leicester
Note: Stead birth and Steads baptism – or vice versa !
Elizabeth Stead b 30th Jan 1830 bap 26 Feb 1837 Great Meeting Presbyterian, Leicester
Joseph Stead b 19th July 1830 bap 26 Feb 1837 Great Meeting Presbyterian,
Leicester
Fanny Maria Stead b 25th May 1837 bap 13th August 1837 Great Meeting Presbyterian,
Leicester
Births (FreeBMD)
1842 SepQ Angela Stead Leicester RD
1857 JunQ William H Stead Leicester RD
1861 DecQ Mary Hope Butterworth Bradfield RD
1886 MarQ Amy Butterworth Stockport RD
Deaths (FreeBMD)
1858 MarQ Eliza Stead Leicester RD
1901 JunQ Euclid Denham Butterworth Age 14 Wakefield RD
1919 MarQ Angela Stead age 76 Ormskirk RD
1903 DecQ Richard Butterworth age 75 Hollingbourne (Kent) RD
1909 JunQ Harriette Anne Butterworth age 81 Hollingbourne RD
Marriages (FreeBMD)
1885 SepQ Adeliza Butterworth m Moritz Heilpern Salford RD
1884 MarQ Albert Hope Butterworth m Potterspury RD
either Sarah Ann Rogers
or Alice Taylor - difficult to confirm who.
1894 SepQ Albert Hope Butterworth m Anne Curry Doncaster RD
1882 MarQ Euclid Hope Butterworth m Florence Isabel Denham Aston RD
(Note: There was also a Euclid Butterworth who married in 1883 in Rochdale –
but no HOPE)
1886 MarQ Mary Hope Butterworth m Isaac Thomas Hawkins Westhampnett RD
Reiver
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Part2 - 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871 Censuses
1841 HO107/604/17 f 34 p 16
Leicester / St Margarets
Lower Church Gate <?>
Wm Steads 39 Bell Hanger Y
Eliza “ 37 Y
Harriett “ 13 N
Joseph “ 10 Y
Elizath “ 9 Y
Fanny “ 4 Y
Comment: Note Steads not Stead. Wifes name probably Eliza. Note that daughter Elizabeth had a 'th' after Eliza.
1851 HO107/2088 f 224?/221? p 3
Leicester / St Margarets
Union Workhouse
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Harriett A Steads U 23 Infant Governess Birmingham, Warwickshire
1851 Census RG107/2090 f 717 p 20
82 Red cross Street
William Steads H 49 Bell Hanger Leicester
Eliza “ W 47 Leicester
Joseph “ S 20 Bell Hanger Leicester
Elizabeth “ D 19 Milliner Leicester
Fanny M “ D 13 Scholar Leicester
Angela “ D 8 “ Leicester
Note: Father was 41 and mother 39 when Angela was born in 1842 (See FreeBMD below)
Note: Cannot find Joseph in next census (1861). Cannot find an appropriate death or marriage either.
(Already in 'tree')
1861 RG9/2295 f 52 p 12
Leicester Leicestershire
6 Red cops Street (Redcross Street?)
William Steads H W 60 Leicester
Fanny Maria “ D U 23 Leicester
William Harley “ D U 4 Scholar Leicester - definitely D (daughter)
Angela “ D U 18 Teacher Leicester
Comment: William is apparently 4 but his father is 60. It would appear that William's mother died in 1858 (See FreeBMD below) Based on 1851 Census his mother Eliza would have been c54 yrs old when he was born !!!!!!
1861 RG9/744 f 6 p 6
Tilehurst, Berkshire
Theale Street
Richard Butterworth H M 32 British Schoolmaster Lancashire Rochdale
Harriett Ann Butterworth W M 33 Schoolmistress Warwick Birmingham
Adeliza “ D U 9 Scholar Leicestershire S Kilworth
Joseph Stead “ S 6 -do- Cambridge Ely
Richard “ S 4 -do- Hants Silchester
Albert Hope “ S 2 -do- -do-
Euclid Hope “ S 1 Berks Tilehurst
Note: The children here are Robert's first cousins – or possibly uncles & aunts
1871 RG10/3756 f 118 p 1
Liverpool / Scotland Ward
4 Wilbraham Street
Jno Thos Jarvis H M 30 Shipping Clerk Oadby Leicestershire
Betty Jarvis W M 38 Leicester Leicestershire
Jno Wm Jarvis S 10 Scholar Oadby Leicestershire
Alice Jarvis D 9 -do- Oadby Leicestershire
Wm Harley Stead Nephew 14 Sailor Leicester Leicestershire
1871 RG10 / 3230 f 32 p 18
Blaby / District of Peterborough
Hoskyn's Yard
Richard Butterworth H M 42 National Schollmaster Lancashire Rochdale
Harriette A. “ W M 43 . . . . . Schoolmistress Warwickshire Birmingham
Adeliza “ D U 19 Schoolmaster's Daughter Leicestershire South Kilworth
Richard “ S 14 Schoolmaster's Son Hampshire Silchester
Albert Hope “ S 12 -do- -do- Hampshire Silchester
Euclid H “ S 11 Scholar Theale Berkshire
Mary H “ D 9 Scholar Theale Berkshire
Arthur “ S 5 Scholar Warwickshire Packington
1871 RG10/3954 f 130 p 12
Bury Lancashire
20, Trinity Street.
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Angela Stead Lodger Unm 28 British Schoolmistress Leicestershire Leicester
(HEALEY family – mother and daughter both born in Bury)
Reiver
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Wonderful Reiver !! .... somebody is going to be a VERY happy camper with ALL that ! ;D ;D ;D ;D
wish it was MY family !! ;D
Annie :)
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1881 Census
1881 RG11/1537 f 105 p 27
Paulerspury Northamptonshire
School House
Richard Butterworth H M 52 Schoolmaster Lancashire Rochdale
Harriett A Butterworth W M 53 Schoolmistress Warwick Birmingham
Mary H Butterworth D U 19 Schoolmasters Daughter Berkshire Theale
Arthur Butterworth S 15 Scholar Warwick Packington
1881 RG11/3679 f 54? p 42
Kirkdale Liverpool
13 Pelops Street.
Richard Butterworth H M 24 Book Keeper (Railway) Hampshire Silchester
Mary E Butterworth W M 28 Lanc Aigburth
Sidney Butterworth S 2 Lanc Liverpool
1881 RG11/3025 f 88 p 26
Aston Birmingham
141 Muntry? Street
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Euclid H Butterworth Lodger UnM 21 Schoolteacher Berkshire Theall(sic)
( with a wire worker's family)
1881 RG11/3955 f 54 p 10
Broughton Salford Hr Kersal
193 Bury New Road
(Family of John Lilly M 52 Braziliam Merchant & Consul for Brazil b Lancashire Smedley
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Adeliza Butterworth Unm 29 Governess Lancashire (sic), South Kilworth
1881 RG11/3887 f 18 p 30
Stretford Lancashire
20 Clarence? Street
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Albert H Butterworth Boarder UnM 22 School Master's Assistant Hampshire Silchester
(One other boarder with lady householder – surname Radcliffe and her neice surname Smith)
1881 RG11/3862 f 68 p 11
Bury Lancashire
3 (?????) Street
Angela Stead Boarder Unm 38 Schoolmistress Leicestershire Leicester
(Boarder with a widow HOWELLS? and anothe Boarder,, a schoolmaster.
Reiver
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Nearly done :) :)
1891 Census
1891 RG12 / 840 f 7 p 8
Birdham W.Sussex
Florences Farm? <no place>
Richard Butterworth H M 62 Schoolmaster Lancashire Rochdale
Harriette A Butterworth W M 63 Schoolmistress Warwickshire, Birmingham
Adeliza Heilpern D M 39 Leicestershire Sth Kilworth
Amy Butterworth GrandD 5 Cheshire Rockford
Note: Amy was the daughter of Albert, their son. He had married but his wife had died. He was a student in Horton, Yorkshire. (See Census1891)
1891 RG 12/2979 f 34 p 16
Walton-on-the-Hill, Lancashire
75 Olney Street
Richard Butterworth H M 34 C C Clerk Hampshire Silchester
Mary Ellen “ W M 37 Lancashire Aigburth
Sidney H “ S 12 Scholar Lancashire Liverpool
Margaret C “ D 9 Scholar Lancashite Liverpool
1891 RG12/3640 f 84 p 4
Horton Bradford Yorkshire
22, Dorkhill? Road
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Albert Hope Butterworth Boarder Widr 32 Student late Schoolmaster Hanpshire Silchester
1891 RG12/3755 f 64 p 21
Lofthouse with Carlton West Riding Yorks.
School House
Euclid H Butterworth H M 31 Certificated Teacher Theale Warwickshire (sic)
Florence Butterworth W M 32 Certificated Mistress London
Elsie M “ D 8 Walkingham Lincolnshire
Euclid D “ S 4 Carlton
Florence J? “ D 1 Carlton
1891 RG12/1888 f 40 p 6
Somerton, Somerset
Vale House
Isaac T Hawkins Head M 32 Civil Engineer & District (Surveyor?) Hants Winchester
Mary H Hawkins Wife M 28 Berkshire Heale (sic)
Lionel H Hawkins son 4 Sussex Chichester
Beatrice H Hawkins D 3 -do- -do-
Kathleen H Hawkins D 8mo Somerset Somerton
Edith Bartlett Serv S 15 General Servant Somerton Somerton
1891 RG12 /536 f 12 p 14
Plumstead London
31 Hamner Road
(Family with the surname HAMMOND)
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Arthur Butterworth Boarder <no state> 25 Sanitary Inspector Warwickshire Packington
1891 RG12/3451 f 66 p 3
Lytham Lancashire
Clifton Drive “Fair Lawn”
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Frances M Stead Serv S 52 General Servant Leicestershire Leicester
(Family of Edward Mellor, single, 39 and a Cotton Manufacturer )
1891 RG12/ 2138 f 95 p 17
Towley Park, Castle Church, Stafford
2 Tixall Villas
John T Jarvis H M 50 Shipping Clerk Leicester Oadby
Betsy “ W M 59 Leicester Oadby
John W “ S S 30 Organising Visitor of Church Schools Leicester Oadby
Angela Stead Visitor S 48 Schoolmistress Leicester Leicester
Reiver
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And finally the 1901 Census :) :) There are one or two things that I've comeacross that I might summarise. In the meantime I'll hang back for questions and comments
Best wishes
reiver :)
1901 RG13/771 F26 P8
Harrietsham Kent
East Street
Richard Butterworth H M 72 Retired Schoolmaster Lancs Rochdale
Harriette Ann Butterworth W M 73 Retired Schoolmistress Warwickshire Birmingham
Arthur Butterworth S S 35 Sanitary Inspector disengaged -do- Gt Packington
Angela Stead Sis in law S 58 Schoolmistress Leicester Leicester
1901 Census Just realised I've omitted the Reference
Liverpool/ Birkdale
49 Liverpool Road Fanny M Stead H S 60 Living on own means Leicester, Leicestershire
(On her own)
Note: FreeBMD Deaths 1901 to 1940
None after 1916
Only Fanny's up to that date (1916) – none Liverpool and non Fanny M
1901 RG13/3460 F 68 P58
Bootle Liverpool
Bootle Boro Hospital, Derby Road
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Richard Butterworth Patient M 44 Mercantile Clerk Hampshire Silchester
Note: No certain Deaths in say 3 or 4 years from 1901
1901 RG13/3449 F168 P40
Litherland Lancashire
31 Hornby Boulevard
Mary E Butterworth H M 47 Lancs Liverpool
Sidney H “ S S 22 Black Dyer Lancs Liverpool
Margaret C “ D S 19 Dyer's Spotter Lancs Liverpool
1901 RG13/4292 F103 P30
Lofthouse with Carlton West Riding Yorks
School House
Euclid H Butterworth H M 41 Certificated Head Teacher Berks Theale
Florence “ W M 42 Certificated Teacher London
Elsie M “ D S 19 Pupil Teacher Lincs Walkerington
Euclid D “ S 14 Yorks Carlton
Florence D “ D 11 Yorks Carlton
Roy S “ S 8 Yorks Carlton
Constance I “ D 4 Yorks Carlton
Adeliza Nicholson Visitor M 49 Leics South Kilworth
1901 RG13/667 f107 p32
Surbiton Surrey
17, Claremont Road
Mary H Hawkins W M 39 Berks Reading
Beatrice H “ D S 13 Sussex Chichester
Kathleen H “ D S 10 Somerset Somerton
Gwendoline “ D S 9 Somerset Somerton
Annie Thompson Serv S 21 Cook General Domestic Essex Brentwood
Note: No indication that mary was a Widow. Husband is Isaac T Hawkins. Ancestry does not show him in England in 1901. No death for him (Isaac T) up to 1919.
1901 RG 13/460 f18 p27
Battersea London
31 Gayville Road
Albert H Butterworth H M 42 Elementary Teacher Hampshire Silchester
Anne “ W M 31 Yorks York
Amy “ D S 15 Dressmaker's Apprentice Cheshire Stockport
Doris B “ D S 5 Surrey Battersea
Freda “ D S 4 Surrey Battersea
Eris(?) R “ D S 3 Surrey Battersea
Anne Curry M in law Wid 66 Northumberland Newcastle
Note:
Albert was a Widower in 1891 age 32. Amy Butterworth (above) was the daughter by that first marriage (MarQ 1886 Stockport).
Reiver
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Reiver !!!!!!! .................... ;D ;D ;D
You have done the impossible ...... you have made me speechless !! ;D
I had no idea when I asked you to post .... that there would be this much of a windfall !
WOW !!
Sit back for a minute while we all take this in !!
Annie x
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Reiver ! you are Wonderful! Your fingers will be bare to the bone with typing!
;D ;D
And Shaun J ! You too ! not least because I know your fingers will be aching after getting that into the website/gedcom file!
Annie! Speechless!? Wow! ;D Not for long I hope!!
Everyone, and I mean, Everyone who has ever contributed to this Quest for RW STEAD - - from the folks who looked for streets and people and graves and Census and BDMS, who sent emails, who walked the roads the STEADS walked , took photographs, those who Googled till they were gozzy, those who gave time to make up Gedcoms, to search archives, purchase documents etc to those who brainstormed ideas or simply joined with words of encouragement - to Michel, who started it - you all had a part to play in this outcome!
And of course, extra especially Annie, who brought it all into Rootschat in the first place !
Well done All ;D
We still would like to find his Grave. I'm sure - but I feel that will come!
Cheers
AMBLY
(Who still hasn't had her toast - been too caught up in this development!)
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I can't think of anything else to say except ............ WOW.
Well done everyone
Barbara
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Hi all
Although I have never contributed to the search I have followed it from the very beginning and I must say how proud I am for each and everyone of you who has made this all come together you are all wonderful.
I dont think it will be long now before the tag will find a true resting place.
Well done all of you
Jane
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Emails have been sent .... just waiting for replies ...... ;D
Fingers crossed !
Annie :)
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Well done everyone!! You are an amazing bunch of people. ;D ;D ;D
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Phew! Have finished inputting Reiver's research ( I think) into the Gedcom and have updated the website http://shaunj.tribalpages.com/. The password is unchanged - if you need it and haven't got it just send me a PM.
There are 122 names up there now.
Have included a 3rd child of John and Alice Titterington - a son Leslie who sadly was killed in 1914 on HMS Pathfinder.
Have also included what I was able to find out about the 4 marriages of Joseph Steads Butterworth.
Have altered Elizabeth Steads dob to 1832 which fits the census data better than the IGI's 1830 (baptised 1837 so there couldn't have been 2 of them)
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A couple more bits to fill in on Adeliza BUTTERWORTH
She married first Moritz HEILPERN and secodly James NICHOLSON.
Moritz was Morris HEILPERN, a Hotel Clerk, in Paddington, London in 1891. Can't find his death before she remarried James though :)
1897 JunQ Adeliza Heilpern m James Nicholson Barnsley RD
1891 RG12/1 f 112 p 29
Paddington, London
5 Westbourne Terrace North
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Morris Heilpern Lodger S 26 Hotel Clerk Vienna, Austria British Subject
(No other family members.)
Regards
Reiver
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I have received the following message from the Liverpool Record Office:
I have consulted the Liverpool Echo but could not find any death notices for Robert William Stead from 7th – 14th October 1925.
I then consulted the national death index but for October, November, December 1925 there was no Robert William Stead listed.
I asked for any newsapaper which may have reported the death and if there was a local one for the Gatacre area
Maybe it was put into The Times or Daily Telegraph
Norah
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Amother marriage to fill a gap in my earlier postings.
Re Richard and Mary BUTTERWORTH at Pelops Street, Kirkdale in 1881
1881 MarQ Richard Butterworth m Mary Ellen Fleetwood W. Derby RD
Regards
Reiver
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Norah,
Robert died in 1926, not 1925. Could you ask them to check the Echo again in the days following 7 October 1926? Thanks
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Well I've had a reply back from Shaun's original contact and he's forwarding everything to the American family ....
so now we have wait ::)
Stay tuned ... I'll let you know as soon as we hear something !! ;D ;D
Reiver's just like the Energizer Bunny .... he just keeps going and going and going !! ;D
Thank you Shaun .... you must be worn out !! ::)
Annie ;D
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Just a detail - Morris Heilpern was granted British nationality on 29 March 1889 per the Gazette of 2 April 1889. He was born in Austria and was living at 10 Churton Place Pimlico.
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I am wondering if there may be some descendants of Robert's cousin Euclid Hope Butterworth still living. His son Roy Steads Butterworth b. 1893 is mentioned in the Gazette of 2/9/1960 as personal representative of Arthur Christopher Denham OBE deceased - presumably a relative on his mother's side.
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Roy Stead Butterworth died in 1984 - GRO Details show his DoB as 13/11/1892, death registered in Barnet q/e Dec 1984 vol 11 page 292
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Take a look at this .......... !!
Medal card of Butterworth, Roy Steads
West Riding Regiment Second Lieutenant
Machine Gun Corps Second Lieutenant
Date
1914-1920
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0237/
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Oh my goodness....did they serve together I wonder.
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Oh boy ! ..... how are we going to find THAT out ??
Looks like they could have though - doesn't it ??
Annie :)
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Can anybody help please? :) :)
Joseph STEAD was born in 1830 and baptised in 1837 at a Presbyterian Meeting House in Leicester.
On both the 1841 and 1851 Census returns he is with his parents and sisters in Leicester (See earlier posts for References). In 1851 he is 20, single, a Bell Hanger (like his father) and born in Leicester.
But I cannot find hide nor hair of him after that. Can anybody else find him and/or give me a clue please?
Regards
Reiver
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All I could find on 1861 was Richard I'm afraid Reiver !! :)
RG9 Piece 2725 Folio 38 Page 10
Give yourself a little break Reiver ! ...... you're working too hard !! ;D ;D
Can't find Butterworth in the pensions !
Annie :)
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Do we have this already ? Karen M just sent it !! ;D
Name - Euclid Hope Butterworth
Arrival Date - 1 Sep 1910
Age - 50 Years
Background - English
Departure - Liverpool
Ship Name - Cymric
Arrival - Boston Massachusetts
Last Residence - England
Birthplace - Berkshire England
Microfilm Roll Number - 154
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Euclid is travelling with Mary Elizabeth Butterworth age 37, housewife,
Nearest Relative in Country where Alien came from
Euclid...
Brother JB Butterworth, 65 The Chase, Clapham C......?, London
Aunt Mrs. Sharp
Mary Elizabeth
89 Northgate Clarkheaton (?), York
Sister Mrs. Sunderland
Final Destination: New York, New York
Karen
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Gosh that's interesting! What a productive day this is. (It's probably just a coincidence but there was a waiter named Morris Heilpern aged 30 who travelled to Boston on the Bothnia on 20 September 1894. That was the name of Euclid's sister Adeliza's first husband and about the right age. He was accompanied by Jeannie Heilpern age 25, a matron, and Otto R Bersick age 33, also a waiter.)
"JB Butterworth " is presumably the 4-times married Joseph Steads Butterworth who did live in South London.
Questions questions .....Who was Mary Elizabeth Butterworth? Had Euclid remarried? What happened to Florence Isabel? What did Euclid do next? Who is Mrs Sharp? Who is Mrs Sunderland ?
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This is so exciting again - and now I have to leave for a bit .......... !!
Don't get too far without me !! ;D ;D ;D
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Dehinitely our Euclid Hope BUTTERWORTH who was the emigrant in 1910. Everythig fits, name :) :) , age, birthplace.
In 1901 Euclid and his family were living in Carlton, West Yotkshire where he was a teacher. His wife was Florence BUTTERWORTH nee DENHAM - not Maty E.
FreeBMD does not show the death of a Florence BUTTERWORTH nor the marriage of Euclid between 1901 and 1910. (Not all transcribed?).
In 1901 there was a Mary E BUTTERWORTH - wife of Richard, Euclid's brother. At that time Richard was in hospital. His wife Mary Ellen was at home with their two children in Litherland. However Mary was aged 47 so could not have been the 37 yr old emigrant ten years later. I havn't found yet a suitable 27yr old Mary E BUTTERWORTH in 1901
As Shaun said Euclid's brother J B BUTTERWORTH could really be J S BUTTERWORTH .
Keep going? :) :)
Reiver
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Just a tiny note from me
Mary Elizabeth
89 Northgate Clarkheaton (?), York
Sister Mrs. Sunderland
Final Destination: New York, New York
Karen
Clarkheaton could well "Cleckheaton" which is in Yorkshire in fact its only about a 10-15 minute drive away from where I live in Huddersfield.
I know every tiny detail in this search could mean "something" so I thought I would just let you all know
Jane
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Thanks Jane ..... you're right ....... it's important to get these names right .... thank you !! ;D
OK .......... here we go .... is this the right one ???? can write it out properly if it is .... ( you know me ... 2 fingers !! :) )
Name - James B Butterworth
Age in 1910 - 76
Birthplace - England
Relation to Head of House - Father-in-law
Father's Birth Place - England
Mother's Birth Place - England
Home in 1910 - Cornwall Orange New York
Marital Status - Widowed
Year of Immigration - 1888
Fred Donsborough 38
Edna B Donsborough 33
James B Butterworth 76
Karen M sent me the WHOLE page ........ !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D and I will type it if I have to !!
Annie :)
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We also have a WWI USA registration card for James Butterworth ( hard to read ! )
Date of birth 5th Nov 1896 Blackburn Lancs
but with a Richard Butterworth as next of kin .......... I think !!
Annie :)
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Found a Teachers Register entry for Albert Hope Butterworth
1 June 1915 No 7854
Address 117 Harrowdene Road, North Wembley
Attainments:
Board of Education Certificate
Certificates from Royal College of Science in Physics, Chemistry (Inorganisc), Astronomical Physics
Career:
Headmaster:
Stockport National School 1883-1887
St Brides's School Stretford 1888-1890
Assistant Master:
Tennyson Street Council School, Battersea 1892-1924
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Another teacher's register entry :
Florence Isabel Butterworth (nee Denham), wife of Euclid Hope Butterworth:
1 January 1919 number 23381
Address Carlton, nr Wakefield, Yorkshire
Attainments: B of E Certificate
Experience:
Assistant Mistress:
Jenkin Street Board Girls' School Birmingham 1878
Little Green Lane Board Girls School Birmingham 1878-1882
Head Mistress:
Walkeringham Infants's School Lincs 1882
Warley Town Infants' School Sowerby Bridge 1883-1885
Carlton Council Infants School Rothwell 1885-1925
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Euclid and Florence had a daughter Elsie Mary Butterworth, also a teacher:
Registration 1 May 1915 number 7163
Address: Carlton, Nr Wakefield Yorkshire
Attainments:
MA Liverpool
BoE Certificate
Scholteachers music certificate
Ist Class certificate in advanced physiology
Training: Edge Hill Training College Liverpool
Experience:
Asst mistress Jarrow pupil teacher training centre 1905-1907
Lecturer and tutor Lincoln training college 1907-1916
Asst mistress St Stephen's High School Windsor 1917-1918
Second mistress St Stephen's High School Windsor 1918-1920
Head Mistress (sub) St Stephen's High School Windsor 1921-1922
Tutor Edge Hill Training College 1922-23
Various temporary roles 1923-25
Lecturer and tutor Tutor Edge Hill Training College 1925 -
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Something odd: both the UK and US passenger manifests for the Cymric's voyage to Boston in August/September 1910 shows that Euclid Hope Butterworth, travelling with wife Mrs Mary Elizabeth Butterworth aged 37, was a gardener by profession. Our man was a headmaster, and he had a wife Florence. So had he changed professions, or was there some identity theft going on here?
Everything else tallies: name, age, place of birth, last place of residence (Wakefield).
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Euclid is travelling with Mary Elizabeth Butterworth age 37, housewife,
Nearest Relative in Country where Alien came from
Euclid...
Brother JB Butterworth, 65 The Chase, Clapham C......?, London
Aunt Mrs. Sharp
Mary Elizabeth
89 Northgate Clarkheaton (?), York
Sister Mrs. Sunderland
Looking at the manifest, I think Mrs Sharp is actually Mary Elizabeth's relative, and Mrs Sunderland belongs to the next person on the list.
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In 1911 there's this Sharp in Halifax:
Sharp W Harness & Portmanteau manufacturer 89 Northgate
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Found Joseph Steads Butterworth in Cheam, Surrey in 1901 mistranscribed as Joseph S Butte Worth. He's married but on his own RG13/578 68 11.
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Per the 1905 London suburbs directory the occupant of 65 The Chase, Clapham was definitely J S Butterworth.
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Have posted a query on the "Yorkshire - West Riding" lookup requests board concerning the occupants of 89 Northgate Cleckheaton in 1910.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=262997.new#new
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Palmer's index has a reference to a Times article 16 August 1876 (Page 11 col e) concerning Butterworth, Joseph Steads, in trouble for assault. I had a look in the Times Digital Archive but couldnt find the article - can anyone else see it?
There are divorce proceedings reported in 1900 - Butterworth vs Butterworth and Glenswick which could well be one of his - it mentions that the petitioner holds a position with the School Board. (10 July 1900 page 14 col e)
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I saw that too Shaun last night ( re the assault !! not the divorces !! ) .... but couldn't get into the Digital Archive ... I think too many people are using it over the weekend .... thought I'd try either your nighttime or Monday !! :)
Annie :)
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Palmer's index has a reference to a Times article 16 August 1876 (Page 11 col e) concerning Butterworth, Joseph Steads, in trouble for assault. I had a look in the Times Digital Archive but couldnt find the article - can anyone else see it?
OK found it - it's the edition of August 18th 1876, not the 16th. Joseph Steads Butterworth burst in on Henry Percy and Zilpha Ormerod at 18 Wilton Road Pimlico, saying he'd "come for that girl" and proceeded to bludgeon Percy with a lead weighted truncheon. Percy tried to withdraw the charge of assault (but the judge wouldn't allow it) and he said he had lent Butterworth £3 so that he could marry Zilpha (whch he duly did). Butterworth was remanded on bail of £50.
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Oh my !!
Couldn't have bludgeoned him too bad .... if he still lent him 3 quid !! :o :o
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Joseph Stread Butterworth married Zilpha Ormerod in SepQ 1873, She died SepQ 1887.
In 1891 he was with Eliza Jane nee Higgs in Battersea shown as unmarried but there is a marrage for them in MarQ 1891. Shaun found him on his own - but married - in 1901.
So what happened to Eliza?
Reiver
I'll post fuller details shortly.
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Euclid is travelling with Mary Elizabeth Butterworth age 37, housewife,
Nearest Relative in Country where Alien came from
Euclid...
Brother JB Butterworth, 65 The Chase, Clapham C......?, London
Aunt Mrs. Sharp
Mary Elizabeth
89 Northgate Clarkheaton (?), York
Sister Mrs. Sunderland
Final Destination: New York, New York
Karen
Mary Elizabeth's identity has become clearer!
On the LDS site there is a submitted record:
Mary Elizabeth Abbey born 2 June 1873 Lofthouse, , Yorkshire, England
Death: 2 June 1966 Port Melbourne Vct, , , Australia
Burial: 6 June 1966 Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Father: Paul Abbey
Mother: Mary Spence
Marriages:
Spouse: Euclid or Hugh Hope Butterworth or Thornton
Marriage: MAY 1910
There is another submitted record for Eugene Hope Butterworth born 15 March 1860 in Tilehurst, Berkshire, died 25 May 1932.
Mary Abbey was a schoolteacher in Lofthouse with Carlton ( where Euclid was headmaster).
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Euclid's first wife Florence Isabel Butterworth died in Carlton nr Wakefield on 16 January 1950 and is buried at Lofthouse Burial Ground ( Per The Times 20/1/1950).
Can't find a GRO index record for Euclid's 2nd marriage, to Mary Elizabeth Abbey. I wonder why he changed his name to Hugh Thornton.
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I think this is another of Euclid and Florence's daughters, who also became a head teacher:
Florence Daisy Butterworth (Born Wakefield RD 4Q 1889 per the GRO)
Teachers Registration 1927 No:74818
BoE Certificate
Teachers Music Certificate
Training: Lincoln Diocesan Training College
Experience:
Assistant Mistress Old Church Infants School Darlaston Staffs 1910-1915
Head Mistress Short Heath Infants School nr Wolverhampton 1915-1923
Head Mistress Clewer S Stephen Junior School Windsor 1923-1930
Head Mistress Clewer S Stephen Senior Girls School Windsor 1930 -
These registers were discontinued in 1948 and were presumably up to date at that point.
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Albert Hope Butterworth and his wife Ann Curry had a daughter Freda Butterworth who graduated from Girton College Cambridge in 1917 per this snippet on Google Books:
http://www.google.co.uk/books?id=MdIbAAAAIAAJ&q=hope+butterworth&dq=hope+butterworth&pgis=1
Can anyone find the rest of her entry in the Girton College Graduates Register?
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Posted earlier - we have Euclid Hope BUTTERWORTH emigrating to the US, arriving in Boston in September and going on to New York. His nearest relative in the UK was J B Butterworth, his brother, who I think we believe is J S BUTTERWORTH (Joseph Stead). His travelling companion is Mary E BUTTERWORTH ( a housewife) from Cleckheaton in Yokshire.
Shaun has found the death of Florence BUTTERWORTH - Euclid's wife on the 1901 Census in Carlton - in 1950. She died in the same place.
I don''t think he was married to Mary E BUTTERWORTH. I note they were travelling companions. I presume there was nothing on the Passenger List that recorded the relationsnip between them.
With the submitted entries on the IGI relating to these two It appears that someone else is / or has been trying to research the family. (I can imagins someone saying "Your great grandpas name was Eugene - or something like that ") :) :) :) :)
However Mary E has died in Melbourne in Australia in 1966. Was she there on her own? Had she left Euclid? Are there any US records that may help?
Regards
Reiver
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Reiver has pointed out that someone has overwritten "Abbey" against Mary Elizabeth's name on that 1910 passenger manifest so her identity must have been discovered when she entered the US. Now why didn't I notice that?
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Just to sum up where we are on Robert Stead's Butterworth cousins:
Adeliza (1852) - no known children by age 48 - assumed no descendants
Joseph S (1855) - no known children by age 45 - but 4th time married in 1907 - possible offspring?
Richard ( 1857) - 2 children Sidney H and Margaret C living in Walton-on-the-Hill Liverpool in 1901.
Albert H ( 1859) - 4 children Amy, Doris, Freda and Eris (?) all living in 1901. Freda appears to be unmarried in 1937 (she was a donor to the Cambridge Preservation Society)
Arthur S (1866) - still unmarried in 1901 aged 35
Euclid H (1860) - had 5 children with Florence. Elsie and Florence seem to be unmarried as of 1948 per the Teachers Register; nothing is known of Constance; Roy Steads Butterworth d.1984 - no information on any family as yet; Euclid D died 1901 aged 14.
Did Euclid H have any children with Mary Abbey?
Mary H (1861) - married Isaac Thomas Hawkins - 4 children living in 1901: Lionel, Beatrice, Kathleen and Gwendoline Hawkins.
Postscript - Lieutenant Lionel Hope Hawkins was killed in France in 1914
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Thanks for that Shaun ! :)....
we're just starting a winter storm here and the electric has gone out 3 times !! ...... I was in the middle of trying to figure everybody out for the summary - when it went down ! :-\
Annie :)
-
Albert H's daughter is definitely Eris. Eris Ruby was born DecQ 1897 Wandsworth RD
-
Palmer's index has a reference to a Times article 16 August 1876 (Page 11 col e) concerning Butterworth, Joseph Steads, in trouble for assault. I had a look in the Times Digital Archive but couldnt find the article - can anyone else see it?
OK found it - it's the edition of August 18th 1876, not the 16th. Joseph Steads Butterworth burst in on Henry Percy and Zilpha Ormerod at 18 Wilton Road Pimlico, saying he'd "come for that girl" and proceeded to bludgeon Percy with a lead weighted truncheon. Percy tried to withdraw the charge of assault (but the judge wouldn't allow it) and he said he had lent Butterworth £3 so that he could marry Zilpha (whch he duly did). Butterworth was remanded on bail of £50.
Just as an aside .......... couldn't have been this Henry Percy could it ??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Percy,_7th_Duke_of_Northumberland
Annie :)
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HAWKINS, LIONEL HOPE Lieutenant, 1st (King's) Dragoon Guards was killed 31/10/1914 aged 28.
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Think this is a typo J T instead of IT for father !!
HAWKINS, LIONEL HOPE (Lieutenant) aged 28
1st (King's) Dragoon Guards
Secondary Regiment: 6th Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers)
died 31/10/1914
Son of Mr. J. T. and Mrs. M. H. Hawkins, of 90, Drayton Gardens, London SW.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Commemorated Panel 3, Ypres, Menin Gate Memorial
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I think I'm wandering here .... but couldn't resist this one ... Sir Anthony Hope Hawkins (1863-1933)
http://www.gatewaymonthly.com/51zend.html
Annie :)
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With many thanks to Steve for the obituary .. plus I got it on here all by myself ! :)
Medal card of Hawkins, L H
Dragoon Guards attached Dragoon Guards Lieutenant
Date 1914-1920
http://www.rootschat.com/links/023q/
-
I hope this works ........ !!
-
Woohoo ! .... OK here's another try ......
-
This is the text with the picture above !!
-
Some more births, marriages, deaths and census returns.
Can anybody think or know of any more we should have?
Birth 1897 DecQ Eris Ruby Butterworth Wandsworth RD
Death 1887 SepQ Zilpha Butterworth age 34 Lambeth RD
Marriage 1876 SepQ Joseph Steads Butterworth m Zilpha Ormerod Bethnal Green RD
Marriage 1891 MarQ Joseph Steads Butterworth m Eliza Annie Higgs St. Saviour Southwark RD
1881 RG11/574 f 93 p 9
Bermondsey Southwark London
139, Spa Road
Joseph S Butterworth H M 26 Teacher Ely, Cambridgeshire
Zilpha Butterworth W M 28 Married Woman Bethnal Green, London
1891 RG12/439 f 72 p 10
Battersea London
71 Parma Crescent
Joseph Steads Butterworth Head U 36 Teacher Cambridge Ely
Eliza Jane “ Wife U 25 Hampshire Shirley
1901 RG 13/578 f 68 p 11
Cheam, Surrey
3, North End Place
Joseph S Butterworth H M 46 Certificated Teacher < ? > Cambridge Ely <?>
Regards
Reiver
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Thanks Reiver ! .... I don't know if we can get this family going either ? ::) ::)
I feel like I'm going around in circles ... does everybody feel the same - or is it just me ??
Annie :)
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A wonderful person who types faster than me ..... just typed this out for me !! ;D ;D ;D ;D
DEATHS IN STATE OF VICTORIA
Registered by John Leopold RATH
No10848
Description
When and where died 2 Jun 1966
Usual Place of Residence Port Melbourne - 163 Bridge Street, Port Melbourne.
Name and Surname Mary Elizabeth THORNTON
Occupation Home Duties
Sex and age Female, 93 years
Cause of death Bronchopneumonia - 7 days
Myocardial degeneration - years
Aterioclerosis - years
Legally qualified medical practition by whom certified - J. Goldberg
When he last saw deceased 2nd June 1966
Name and surname of father and mother [maiden name if known] with occupation. Unknown ABBEY Unknown
Signature of Registration Office As above
Date & Where registered Heidelberg, 9th June 1966
If burial registered 6th June, 1966
When and where Melbourne General Cemetery, Carlton
Undertaker by whom certified or names of witnesses R McKenzie, R Holten & W McKenzie.
Where born, England
and how long in Australian States 15 years in Victoria
If deceased was married
Where England
At what age 27 years
and
To Whom Hugh THORNTON
Conjugal Condition at
date of death WIDOW
Issue in order birth,
the names and ages Hugh Spencer, 55 years
Now here is the death reg for the son - Vic Death Index
THORNTON Hugh Spencer Abbe ( would be Abbey I would imagine )
Father - Euclid Hope Bu ( must be Butterworth )
Mother - Fary Elizabeth ( would be Mary )
Age 72 Year 1983 Reg No 16598
at PORT ( would be Port Melbourne I would imagine )
PS .......... I know the name of the informant ... but I withheld that ! :-\
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Can't find a GRO index record for Euclid's 2nd marriage, to Mary Elizabeth Abbey. I wonder why he changed his name to Hugh Thornton
He didn't !! ....... Mary Elizabeth married again to a man named Hugh Thornton and went to live in Australia !
Did Euclid H have any children with Mary Abbey?
Yes !! .... as above but his new father ( Hugh Thornton ) must have adopted him !!
I posted a request on the Australian board to find out when she went !! :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,263273.from1193020524/topicseen.html#msg1486235
Annie :)
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This could be the birth of Mary's son Hugh :
Q1 1911
ABBEY Hugh S B Bristol 6a 114
Perhaps it's Hugh Spence Butterworth Abbey ?
Spence was Mary's mother's maiden name.
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This is my first foray into these exhaustive (exhausting?) threads so if I'm bringing up red herrings, or if I haven't seen pertinent information which has already been posted, please just tell me to get back in my box ;D
Another possible birth (IF Hugh was born in England) might be:
THORNTON Hugh A (Abbey?), March quarter 1911, Meriden?
I'm thinking that the Victorian death cert of Hugh Spencer Abbe THORNTON is needed - to find out where he was born and also how long he had been in Australia.
If Mary's death cert is correct:
a) she was born in 1873.
Probably the following;
Paul ABBEY m Mary SPENCE Jun qtr 1872, Dewbury
Mary Elizabeth ABBEY birth Jun qtr 1873, Wakefield
1881 census, Mary aged 7 is with her parents in Lofthouse cum Carlton (Paul is a Coal Miner)
b) she was married to Hugh THORNTON in England at the age of 27
If this is correct, it means she was married in 1900 i.e. before she went to the US with Euclid in 1910 and 11 years before the birth of Hugh.
That is, it wouldn't have been a subsequent marriage to a Hugh THORNTON who kindly took on Euclid's child but rather a case of Euclid's child being registered (wherever this happened) under Mary's official (married) name (THORNTON) at the time of his birth.
Unfortunately I can't find an appropriate THORNTON-ABBEY marriage.
c) she had been in Australia for 15 years i.e. arrived ca 1951 (if this is true, one has to wonder why she came to Australia at the age of 78).
Possible searches?
1. 1901 England census for Mary Elizabeth ABBEY or Mary Elizabeth THORNTON (b Yorkshire 1873)
2. 1920 and later US censuses for Euclid (and for Mary Elizabeth and for young Hugh THORNTON)
JAP
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Mary Abbey is a schoolteacher in 1901 still living with her parents RG13/4292 f133 p39.
One of the LDS submitters gave date for the death Hugh or Euclid Butterworth or Thornton in May 1932. I wonder if this is him:
Q2 1932
Thornton, Hugh aged 72 Keynsham 5c 638
The age would be exactly right for Euclid Hope Butterworth.
I would surmise from all this that Euclid left his wife Florence c.1910 and ran away with Mary Abbey (one of his teaching staff), changing his name so as not to be found. It would explain why his name isn't in the Register of Teachers.
-
A possible:
SS Hobsons Bay dep Southampton for Melbourne 29 March 1933:
Thornton, Mrs Mary - last address Rough Moor Farm, Shaw(?), Swindon age 60
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Hello ShaunJ,
Thanks very much!
I was a bit concerned about Annie's suggestion that Mary had married a kindly Mr THORNTON after Hugh's birth, and that Mr THORNTON had taken on Euclid's son Hugh - that didn't quite seem to gel with the death cert.
I like your scenario :)
Mary's length of time in Australia on the dc might be wrong - or perhaps son Hugh had migrated to Australia and, after the death of her 'husband' (Euclid under an alias?), she visited Hugh and then later decided to migrate permanently. Who knows ...
Roughmoor, Swindon can be found on the www.streetmap.co.uk site - Shaw, Swindon is about 1km south. And there's mention of Roughmoor Farm at:
http://www.swindonhistory.co.uk/b.htm
I wondered if the various places suggested any links:
- possible birthplaces for Hugh in 1911 being Bristol (Gloucestershire) or Meriden (Warwickshire). {The Meriden one is probably irrelevant as there's a marriage of a Hugh THORNTON in Meriden in 1908 (Edith Jane WILKS on same page) and the birth of an Eleanor Mary THORNTON in Meriden in 1909.}
- possible deathplace for 'Hugh' snr in 1932 being Keynsham (Somerset) - yes, close to Bristol.
- residence of Mary 'THORNTON' in 1933 being Swindon (Wiltshire); well, perhaps she'd gone to stay with friends/relatives following Hugh's death.
The Victorian death cert of Hugh Spencer Abbe THORNTON could possibly answer everything ...
Regards,
JAP
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Where is this wrong?
" Euclid Hope BUTTERWORTH emigrated to the US in 1910 with his wife Mary Elizabeth BUTTERWORTH. It would appear however that they were not married and in fact she was Mary Elizabeth ABBEY.
Mary Elizabeth moves on to Australia sometime later, leaving Euclid.
Mary Elizabeth THORNTON dies in Melbourne aged 93 yrs in 1966. Her death certificate - details from an informant and not from her :) - say she married Hugh THORNTON in England when she was 27 and that she had been in Australia for 15 years (since 1951) when she would have been 78 yrs. They -Hugh THORNTON and Mary Elizabeth - had a son who they called Hugh Spencer THORNTON who was aged 55 yrs in 1966.
The son- Hugh Spencer (Abbey?) - died in Melbourne 1983 aged 72. It was claimed his father was Euclid Hope Butterworth and that his mother wa Mary Elizabeth. ""
Somebody is telling porkies (pork pies - lies) ;D ;D But who?
How did Mary Elizabeth get back from the US to England - if indeed she did?
Under what name? What happened to Euclid? Did she leave him in the US?
Could she have left the US for Australia? Are there any other passenger lists that could be looked at? Did they both / singly come back to England?
As Shaun said Mary Elizabeth Abbey was single in 1901, aged 27 and with her parents. Her son Hugh Spencer was born in 1910 /1911 to Euclid BUTTERWORTH and Mary Elizabeth according to 'the informant'. The informant knew therefore that the surname THORNTON was false. But in 1910 they went to the US? Did they come back on the next boat so that he could be born in England? As Mr and Mrs THORNTON :) :) :)
Just lots of questions :) :) :) :)
Regards
Reiver
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Reiver,
There is no reason to think that Euclid and Mary "emigrated" to the US. All we know is that they travelled there in 1910 on the Cymric, entering at Boston en route to New York.
I've now found the next page of the US immigration manifest which shows that Euclid had $300 with him and their destination was the Hotel Criterion on 41st Street, New York City. It looks like they were on vacation.
There are descriptions: Euclid was 5' 11'' , fair complexion, brown hair, blue eyes; Mary was 5'4'', dark complexion, brown hair, hazel eyes.
Euclid answered "no" to the question about whether he was a polygamist.
-
Thanks Shaun
I never considered the holiday possibility. I'm relievrd :)
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The Hotel Criterion was at 41st and Broadway - a block away from Times Square.
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Son Hugh died in 1983 - in Australia 31 years - married Bristol Eng at 28 years.
father Euclid Hope Butterworth THORNTON
mother Mary Elizabeth SPENCE
Annie
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A friend checked the cemetery !
Have done a check of the cemetery where Hugh Spence Abbey is buried - his wife Bessie is not buried there - she could still be alive. Hugh was born around 1910 1911 and she is probably a number of years younger
-
Q1 1911
ABBEY Hugh S B Bristol 6a 114
Perhaps it is Hugh Spence Butterworth Abbey ::)
and Spence was Mary's mother's maiden name !
This is Hugh's birth as on his death cert it is stated born in Bristol and it would be around 1911.
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Here's his Death -
1980's
Port Melbourne
163 Bridge Street Port Melbourne
Hugh Spence Abbey THORNTON
Patternmaker
Male 72 years.
Hypertensive cardiovascular disease.
Coronary sclerosis, Myocardial fibrosis.
The Coroner of Melbourne Mr H F Adams ordered burial of the body without inquest following a post-mortem examination held under section 6A of the Croner Act 1958 by Dr Hicks
1980's Memorial Park Cemetery North Altona.
Born Bristol England
In Australia 31 years
Married Bristol England
At 28 years
Conjugal state at Death MARRIED
wife may still be alive
I've taken out the informant and 2 children !!
Annie :)
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Poor Michel is REALLY bewildered now !!
It's taken a few days to get over the last family we found ...... I really don't know how to explain this to him ....... !!
If anybody has any ideas ...... ??? because to be honest - I don't know myself right now :P I'm just going with the flow !!
And where's Ambly doing her cheer - leader bit ?? ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Annie, you said I was bewildered...
The word is weak... you can also add that I am drowned, dropped, lost, buried etc. .. :P
BUT : you can also say that I am overwhelmed by all this incredible research work done by your wonderful team of sleuths.
Thank you all from the bottom of my heart
Michel
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I don't know about sleuths Michel, I think they're ruddy magicians!!! They've done a magnificent job.
Barbara
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But what is the link between Hugh Thornton (father) and Euclid Hope Butterworth?
Could they be the same person?
Is it just me who thinks that the ew in Hugh sounds like the ew in Euclid ???? :
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But what is the link between Hugh Thornton (father) and Euclid Hope Butterworth?
Could they be the same person?
Is it just me who thinks that the ew in Hugh sounds like the ew in Euclid ???? :
Of course they're the same person!
Note he's named as "Euclid Hope Butterworth" Thornton on his son's death certificate.
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Annie, you said I was bewildered...
The word is weak... you can also add that I am drowned, dropped, lost, buried etc. .. :P
BUT : you can also say that I am overwhelmed by all this incredible research work done by your wonderful team of sleuths.
Thank you all from the bottom of my heart
Michel
One of these days Michel we'll get to the bottom of this mystery .... we just don't know when !! ::) ::) sit back and just enjoy the ride ..... because we don't know either ..... YET !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think that's what everybody is thinking Reiver !! :) :) :)
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Now - back to the UK and Euclid's other family - I wonder if his son Roy Steads Butterworth had children - and did he leave a Will?
-
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Oh Shaun !! ....... ;D ............ I think another pot of coffee is in order here !!
Annie :)
-
Roy Stead Butterworth died in 1980's - GRO Details show his DoB as 13/11/1892, death registered in Barnet 1980'svol 11 page 292
Just to keep us up to date .... Shaun found this ! ( who knows when it was !! ;D ;D )
-
From the GRO register there is:
MarQ 1911 Hugh S B Abbey Bristol 6a/114 Official
From the IGI a sumitted entry:
Hugh Spence Abbey Thornton
Birth 17th January 1911
Death 19080's
Father Hugh Thornton
Mother Mary Elizabeth Abbey
No details of Submitter included.
But in the Pedigree Resource File:-
Birth 17th January 1911 St George, Bristol
Christening 16th March 1911 Holy Trinity of Kingswood Bristol
1980's Port Melbourne Australia
Burial 1980's Altona Lawn Cemetery
Father Euclid Hope Butterworth
Mother: Mary Elizabeth Abbey
Spouse Bessie Marriage See the PRF
Description 5'9" Brown Eyes Black Hair
SUBMITTER Gerald E Barnard 13 Essey Street Clontarf Queensland 4019
Thought I would post these together. All dates though post 1925 are in the public domain.
There are fuller details (Notes and Sources) about the Pedigree Resource File entry via www.familysearch.org. Search for baptism Hugh Thornton in 1911 in England. There maybe somebody who is more familiar with getting at this material. :)
Reiver
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Hi ShaunJ,
Did you notice that Hugh jnr (died in 1980's) had been in Australia for years? Giving a migration date of ca 1950's. And his mother Mary (died 1960's) had been in Australia 10 years - giving a migration date of ca 1950's
It seems possible, then, that the 1933 trip (assuming it was this Mary) might have been a recuperative sea voyage following the 1932 death of Hugh THORNTON/Euclid Hope BUTTERWORTH. And that Mary, son Hugh, his wife Bessie, and their children might have migrated together in 1950's
JAP
PS: I wonder where PRF submitter Gerald E BARNARD fits in to the picture (incidentally, the telephone directory at:
http://www.whitepages.com.au/wp/initResSearch.do
lists only an H BARNARD at the address given for the submitter).
PPS (added later): The PRF says that Bessie, wife of Hugh Spence Abbey THORNTON, died 1990's Queensland
-
That all seems very likely JAP.
Gosh isn't there a lot of data in that PRF
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Birth JunQ 1905 Euclid Curry Butterworth Wandsworth RD
Is this a son of Albert Hope Butterworth, Euclid's brother? Albert's wife was Ann Curry.
-
As it's public domain .... can we post or do we need a ruling ??
Annie :)
Edit ... I asked for a ruling .... so let's wait ... because it would be great to have other information to work with ! :)
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Birth JunQ 1905 Euclid Curry Butterworth Wandsworth RD
Is this a son of Albert Hope Butterworth, Euclid's brother? Albert's wife was Ann Curry.
Hi Reiver - yes I think that must be another son of Albert and Ann.
Euclid Curry Butterworth went into the Church and was the incumbent at St Mary's Lincoln from 1940 to 1945 1944.
http://beehive.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/default.asp?WCI=SiteHome&ID=14273&PageID=94690
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There is however a death for Euclid Curry Butterworth as follows:-
1940's DecQ age 39 Lincoln
Sorry :)
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There is however a death for Euclid Curry Butterworth as follows:-
194o's age 39 Lincoln
Sorry :)
So that's why he's not in the phonebooks after 1945!
There's a mention of him in this reminiscence of the 1930's. It seems he had a rich bass voice. http://archive.worcesternews.co.uk/2006/12/26/442045.html
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Hi you group of incredibles,
I woke up at 3 am.....and have finally got around to reading this posting...2 hours later...I am here...I live 1 hour from Redcliff Qld.....would anyone like me to ring Mr Barnard...and if so...what would you like me to say....? as I have only read this entire thread not any previous ones...
Tell me what I should do..?
By the way....
If you put this number in only 1909788-1028102032631 into the Pedigree resource file....you get tons of names that you are researching....all from Mr Barnard....then you can put in the surnames .....only to see what else he has...that you are looking for...
regards
Jo
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Bear with us Jo - Annie's gone to a meeting and is offline at the moment. But I guess it's still a bit early in the morning to be phoning anyone in Queensland about family history!
If you want a very short summary of what this is about take a look at the welcome page on the website:
http://shaunj.tribalpages.com/
You'll need the password. I'll send it by PM (if there's anyone else who would like it just send me a PM). I haven't yet updated it for today's revelations.
-
Gee, I'm having a little cry....what a wonderful thing you are all doing..
Just another clue why we do this....
Grand Work..
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Well I'm home ..... but I need to make coffee first .... so I can read and inwardly digest what we have here !
Did anybody hear from Trystan ..... before we go too much further .... ?? I did ask him to add to the thread so we would know .... :)
Hi Jo ! how cool to be so close to the man who may hold all our answers ....
I just hope "our Robert " is in there !! ;D ;D ;D ;D
I'll be back !!
Annie :)
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Last night I had to lock and edit this thread as it contained dates,names and far to much information on living people. When posting please give this a little thought.
A marriage that takes place before 1925 should be ok but information posted on any children is very likely to be that of a living person. The more information you post ie Date of birth, Full Name, spouse, siblings, address etc the more you are revealing to the world.
Different language can be used in posts which you may be able to get around this problem. If all the date is not essential why not say "early 1960's".
If you have anymore questions or want to run something past us before posting I am sure either myself or the moderators would be happen to check anything out.
Sarah
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Hi guys.....
I have been following this story, since Annie first started it.......Fantastic work...
It has taken me, like Jo , about two hours to catch up with Part 2, and can't believe how much has been discovered by you all.
Just hope you do find some family alive. They would be heartened to know, I am sure, that such super people still exist......
When you have solved this one... I could do with some help !!
Regards
JeannieR
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The whole question of posting relatively 'recent' information is a very vexed one.
Especially when it comes from Web sites where the information is in the public domain and easily accessible.
For instance, the FamilySearch site has details in its US Social Security Death Index right up to this current year, 2007! Those details include the precise date of death of the individual and usually the precise date of birth of the individual. A quick check of a few pages revealed birth dates as recent as the 1970s and 1980s - there may well be later ones.
Development of a set of clear guidelines on what's OK on RootsChat and what's not would be really helpful.
Not to mention that it would probably save the Moderators lots of work :)
Perhaps a discussion on a separate thread might be useful?
JAP
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Maybe the best we can do - if we find later information that is pertinent to the subject at hand AND to take the onus off RootsChat - would be to post urls to the site that is giving the information ! :) somebody will probably let us know !!
A friend went to the Liverpool Records Office today and sent me this ! ..... wonderful of him to do it ... but I think we already have most of this information and I think the Cotton Brokerage is a red herring don't you ?? :) I'm posting it .... just in case anybody sees anything I don't !! :) I did ask if we could have a look up of the death and funeral notices ... FOR SURE the next time !
Back in circulation and had a look in Liverpool RO this morning. Probate record gives no occupation, with his address as 'The Cot, Grange Lane, Gateacre, Liverpool'. Probate was granted to his widow, Elizabeth Neil Stead.
Voters registers give no occupation, so I did not search there.
Kelly's Directory: 1923 - he is listed at 5 Queen's Road, Hoylake. 1926 at The Cot [as above]. No occupation for either, though they are shown in many entries at that period.
There was a family of cotton brokers called Stead, active until living memory. Any connection?
Grange Lane is still there, but much built over since the large-scale OS maps of 1904 and 1927 where I looked for The Cot. It does not appear, though the larger houses are named. Pressure on time and m/film readers meant I could not look in newspaper files for a death notice, which might give funeral details. Will keep this in my look-up list for another time.
Nearest C of E parish churches are Childwall All Saints [huge graveyard] and St Stephen's, Gateacre - I do not know about this one
Annie :)
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Just a quick update...re: contacting Barnard relatives....in Australia....
I have phoned twice and left one message......I will ring again.....
Not keen on leaving messages ..would hate to sound like a crank......
Jo
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Thanks for trying Jo ! - fingers crossed he calls back soon !! :)
Here's something interesting ............ According to the book "Locations & Whereabouts of Monumental Inscriptions" those for All Saints Childwall are held at the Lancs Record Office and the Manchester central Library and at Stockport Library ........ but theres no dates !! :-\
Or is the Manchester one - just for large monuments not gravestones ?? :-\ ....... my cousin has been slowly making his way around the graveyard a section at a time ........ all scientific of course .... he made a "grid map " ::) but nothing yet !
Annie :)
Jeannie .... I'll share !! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The website has just been been updated.
http://shaunj.tribalpages.com
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I am expecting to hear from Liverpool Record Office next monday and hope that Robert Wm. Stead's death and funeral notice is found in the Liverpool Echo.
No other paper was offered altho I did ask if there was a local paper which would include the Gateacre area.
Norah
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Roy Steads Butterworth was married to Grace Ellen (maiden name not yet known), who passed away in June 1975 aged 86 ( so was born c. 1889) and was cremated at Enfield Crematorium on 15 June. There is no mention of any children in the death notice in The Times of 10 June.
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I can't believe this .... but my friend went to the RO today and found this !
Liverpool Echo Sat Oct 9 1926
Robert W Stead husband of Elizabeth N Stead
The Cot Grange lane Gatacre
Service to be held at St Stephens
Internment Woolton church yard
He was there all the time ....... how many times have we been over St Stephens and Woolton church ?? ......... over and over and over again !
That Eleanor Rigby must be hiding him !! .......... this news will make Michel happy ..... now he'll have an excuse to go visit Beatle country !!
Annie :)
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I am pleased that you have the record office info as I had sent a reminder to them that they had not sent the Robert Wm. Stead info as promised
Norah
-
Hi all.....
Annie....talk about going round in circles... ::)
I just wish I could help more this time round but things are still progressing .
Shaun...could you pm the pass word as I would love to catch up on the current bits.
fingers crossed
Tazzie
-
I am pleased that you have the record office info as I had sent a reminder to them that they had not sent the Robert Wm. Stead info as promised
Norah
Thanks for all your help Norah ..... people just don't realise how impatient we get waiting do they ??
Circles is right Taz .... we thought about St Stephens and Woolton .... on the first few pages on this thread - nearly 11 months ago ::) !! ..... and tried getting the information then !
Annie :)
EDIT ...... he's not on his own ..... we have to go through every inscription to see who he's with ....... who wants to take a letter ?? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Tell us which one you're taking so we don't double up ! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wooltonchurchyard/
-
I just did S - W ....... very slowly !! ::) ::)
I have to go and get these boys ready .... I'll be back ...... !!
Annie :)
-
Well I've been through them all .... and I just can't see him ! - I did send Margaret an email when we first started and she said
It is by no means complete and I will be adding to it as and when I can find the time.
The latest update was 11th May 2003 !! ;D ;D ;D ;D
So ........... ::) I need to get my cousin and his grid map off Childwall .....and see if he wouldn't like to try St Peter's ;D ;D ;D
Unless anybody else has a better idea !!
Annie :)
-
Hi Annie .....
Did we approach the church direct?
Begging letter or e-mail possible.
Tazzie
-
Hi Annie .....
Did we approach the church direct?
Begging letter or e-mail possible.
Tazzie
Yes Taz ! Mary A did .... months ago and they couldn't tell her anything !! ::) ::)
Annie :)
-
Ok .....does the local records office hold copies of the burial books. I know my local in Leighton Buzzard has copies of both the parish church and the "new " cemetery.
Armed with the exact date and place (we now hope) maybe they will be able to check......I don't know clutching at straws maybe. I am still going through Shauns site but it seem to have all angles covered.
Tazzie
-
Has anyone tried contacting the crematoria office
It may work different with a church yard rather than a cemetery I dont know
But when I needed a grave position they e-maild it too me
See below
Post
Allerton Cemetery Lodge
192 Woolton Road
Liverpool
L19 5NF
Telephone
0151 233 3004
Email
cemeteriesandcrematoria@liverpool.gov.uk
-
I cant belive Annie is off line
There must be a power cut ;D
-
I have to sleep sometimes Blue !! ;D ;D ;D
Thanks for the Allerton .... but we did try there with no results and we know now he's buried in Woolton !!
Woolton burial books for 1926 aren't at the RO are they ? but I have just sent Allerton an email .... just in case .... they may refer me on .... which would be very cool !
Thanks for thinking about us !
Annie :)
-
Hi All
If you don't get any joy, I'm happy to give the man at the council a ring again, he was so helpful before with the 'he's not here or there'
Dawn
-
Well I heard from Allerton !! :-\
I have looked in our records for Robert W Stead and could not find him.
The only thing I can suggest the Central Library in William St.
There phone number is 0151 233 5817 they will have the year you are looking for in other Liverpool Cemeteries sorry I was unable to help.
Back to square one !! ............ :P
-
Have just spoken with Paul at Liverpool Record Office
He is 'confused' over death announcement in Liverpool Echo, in that if he was buried in a churchyard it would give the saints name of the church??? as St Stephens for the service is mentioned.
Anyway, the RO holds registers for St Peters Woolton up to 1901. 1926 is still most probably at the church.
He also suggested Allerton but we 'know' he's not there??
As you say, we're back to square one.
Dawn
-
Would somebody just stand there - while I give 'em a punch on the nose !! ::)
Won't help us find him ... but it would sure as heck make me feel better !! :P :P :P
This man .... is there I just know it ..... why won't he come out and let us see him ?? we've been all around the world and back ... and can't find him on our own front door step ! ???
Ooohh ... it's fruatrating isn't it ?? ....... Sorry ... I know you guys feel the same !! :)
-
Have just spoken with Paul at Liverpool Record Office
He is 'confused' over death announcement in Liverpool Echo, in that if he was buried in a churchyard it would give the saints name of the church??? as St Stephens for the service is mentioned.
Anyway, the RO holds registers for St Peters Woolton up to 1901. 1926 is still most probably at the church.
He also suggested Allerton but we 'know' he's not there??
As you say, we're back to square one.
Dawn
It depends on whoever
Posted the announcmet and how they worded it
-
I know it was done a while ago and since then other info has come to light, but I have sent an email to the verger at St Peters apologising that is it unsolicited and if it is a duplicate request but asking if Robert is there as we have a dated announcement from the Liverpool Echo. I explained that I had spoken with Liverpool RO and they only have registers up to 1901.
-
Thank you Dawn ! ... I was contemplating doing the same !! :)
Fingers crossed ..... AGAIN !! ( we're all going to get arthritis ..... with all this finger crossing we're doing !! :D
Annie :)
-
Thank you Dawn ! ... I was contemplating doing the same !! :)
Great minds and all that!! Hope I didn't tread on anyone's toes by doing this.
You've done/you're doing such a great job on this and I feel that this is one way I can contribute.
If it wasn't for the distance involved I'd be up there tomorrow, going through Woolton, headstone by headstone (if there is one) or banging on the church door for an answer.
Dawn
-
Hi guys .....
Arthritis and b***** headaches I've been banging mine on the desk and no it has not helped :-\
Dawn like you distance is too far but I would love to if I could. Fingers crossed you get a reply soon .
Tazzie.
See you all in the morning :)
-
Good evening to everyone,
I am impressed by all the energy that you are deploying.
Like you, if there were no distance (and especially the channel) I would browse the aisles of the cemetery and check the graves one by one. :)
Michel
-
Annie and fellow rootschatters
I have a very dear sister who earlier tonight told me she was visiting the cemetery tomorrow to take photographs of the graves of Ellenor Rigby and Father McKenzie and to place flowers there and then I read the thread tonight so rang her back to ask her to go to the church and see what she can find out and if she can get details from the grave of Robert Stead if she can find it.
She is ringing me in the morning for the details so will look back later to see if I have the details right and if I have any other info to add for her
She is not computer literate so will only be able to make contact by phone and is willing to take a photograph.
She has this hobby of photographing everything in Liverpool of interest to leave for her family as a document of our life today.
Edna
-
Oh Edna ! ..... that's wonderful !
Thank you and your sister so much !! ;D ;D
As we don't have any plot number or anything ...... maybe you could just tell her the details from the Echo funeral notice and ask her to ask at the office ... ( if there's one there ! )
Liverpool Echo Sat Oct 9 1926
Robert W Stead husband of Elizabeth N Stead
The Cot Grange lane Gatacre
Service to be held at St Stephens
Internment Woolton church yard
Thank you again !
Annie :) :)
-
Bonsoir Edna,
merci beaucoup à vous deux, c'est vraiment merveilleux.
puisse l'âme de Robert guider votre soeur dans sa recherche...
Michel
Good evening Edna,
Many thanks to both of you, it's really wonderful.
May Robert's soul guide your sister in her search ...
Michel
-
Thank you Michel and Annie I shall tell her of your messages tomorrow when she phones and I hope I have some news for you both tomorrow
Edna
-
I know it was done a while ago and since then other info has come to light, but I have sent an email to the verger at St Peters apologising that is it unsolicited and if it is a duplicate request but asking if Robert is there as we have a dated announcement from the Liverpool Echo. I explained that I had spoken with Liverpool RO and they only have registers up to 1901.
Well. there is no reason why he will not be there.
As how else would they put this in the paper.
The problem is finding the Resting place
Not so much a problem as time consuming
All the verger can do surely is to confirm he is there
Unless there is of course
A map of the grave yard such as the cemeteries use
And then you may be able to pin point the area and also the grave number.
-
Thank you Michel and Annie I shall tell her of your messages tomorrow when she phones and I hope I have some news for you both tomorrow
Edna
I could be wrong on this one Edna so don't hold me to it.
But it may save your sister at least a little time
Father Macenzie was Catholic, St Peters is C of E
So I don;t think he will be in that church yard.
He is just in the song and its not realy suggesting the song is about St Peters.
-
Heyesie
My Brother in law used to be a taxi driver in the city and often did the tours and he told me Father McKenzie is two rows back from Ellenor Rigby but I dont know about the religious side of things but we will know hopefully by tonight if she has found the grave of Robert W Stead or any further information on him.
She will be ringing me soon so any last minute requests or information for her please add it now.
Edna
-
Morning all,
Not holding my breath at all (I might go blue in the wait) but I have just received this reply from the Verger
Dawn,
I am not in work today but will cerainly check our records next week. It shouldn't be a problem !
Graham Paisley
(Verger)
Looks like were all on the move again ;D
Good luck to your sister, Edna, doesn't look like anyone will be at the church today to help out though.
Fingers crossed and breath held (well just a bit)
Dawn
-
Heyesie
My Brother in law used to be a taxi driver in the city and often did the tours and he told me Father McKenzie is two rows back from Ellenor Rigby but I dont know about the religious side of things but we will know hopefully by tonight if she has found the grave of Robert W Stead or any further information on him.
She will be ringing me soon so any last minute requests or information for her please add it now.
Ok I stand corrected
Sorry :-[
Edna
-
Hello Annie and rootschatters
Sister has just been on the phone and has been unable to find the grave today and has spoken to someone who says the virger is off today as we already know.
She says she will go back again for us another day so no luck yet sorry
Edna
-
:( Looks like an unmarked grave if he's there then. We'll wait for the verger after the weekend.
Never mind Edna, please thank her for trying, still holding my breath and fingers are crosssed.
Did she find Ellenor Rigby and Father McKenzie?
Dawn
-
She probably has not done all the graves yet you know
She said she was going back
She is on her own.
Give it a little more time
Possible it could also be over grown
Could you get an idea where she search from and to
Say as she walked in the main gates did she start on the left
-
I always believed these were not real people. I did a bit of googling and found these comments:
Paul McCartney got "Rigby" from the name of a store and "Eleanor" from actress Eleanor Bron. He liked the name "Eleanor Rigby" because it sounded natural.
"Father Mackenzie" was originally "Father McCartney." Paul decided he didn't want to freak out his dad and picked a name out of the phone book instead.
Yes, I know there is an Eleanor Rigby buried in the churchyard, but it's just a coincidence .... (didn't know about Father Mackenzie though)
Back to the subject. I've been secretly following the twists and turns of this amazing quest since the very beginning. I wait with anticipation for the next installment. So near and yet so far ...
Fantastic work all of you!
-
I read Paul's biography some time a go
He did say it was not because of the grave
And it was Eleanor Bron
Who he made a film with
Which gave him the idea
I think yes he did also say it was his Dad
But point being People associate St Peter's with the song
Wrong or right
-
OK ... I have an amendment ....... not that it's going to make too much of a difference .... but you never know !! ::)
Liverpool Echo, 9 Oct 1926:
"STEAD - October 7 Robert W. Stead beloved husband of Elizabeth N. Stead of The Cot Grange Lane Gateacre Service at St Stephen's Church Gateacre on Monday next at 2 p.m Interment at Woolton Churchyard afterwards."
So now I have to look up the day of the week and day ( OK the 9th October 1926 is a Saturday .... so the following Monday would be the 11th October .... ! :) ) and that will give us a bit more information to give to the Verger ! :P .... what about the Vicar ?.... do you think he would just say wait for the Verger ??
Annie :)
-
Have spoken to sister when she got home and her partner was with her so two people searching,
She spoke to the man who looks after the grounds and he showed her the grave of Ellenor Rigby and two rows in front is father McKenzie coincidence or not, (she left pots of rememberance roses on both graves) and he also showed her Bob Paislys grave.
She searched all the graves and also the newer graves she said and she will go back again probably Tuesday for us and do another look so any further information before then will be great and I will check in here before she goes.
She said it is not a very big churchyard.
Edna
-
Hi Annie & Edna
The church has an internet site
http://www.stpeters-woolton.org.uk/index.php
with a 'History' tab (of the building and family) which asks for all enquiries to go to the verger.
I've emailed the verger Graham again with the newspaper cutting details for information.
Thanks for the update Edna, hopefully Graham the verger will contact me on Monday.
Dawn
-
Sister says that some of the graves were unaccessible as being turned over ect., so it will now depend on the verger finding where he was buried and she will go back to take a picture if needed.
Edna
-
Morning all, where are you? I've got exciting news to share and no-one's around to hear :o
Im so excited for you all, I've just received this ;D ;D
Morning Dawn,
Robert Stead is indeed buried in the churchyard at St Peters.
Details are as your email in the burial register but the headstone on the
grave has fallen forward and cant be read.It is a large stone and I would
at sometime like to turn it over to read the inscription.
Regards,
Graham
Are there any volunteers to help turn it over ?? Would love to be there but London to Liverpool and back is not do-able during school hours.
Dawn
-
Hello Dawn,
I AM HERE !!! ;D ;D
let me the time for translating correctly your message and I will be back.....
Michel
-
Morning Dawn..... & Michel :)
A RESULT ;D
Fantastic I would if I could believe me but like you don't think I could be back by 3 for the school run :(
We need locals....CAN ANYONE HELP PLEEEEASE.
I wonder on the condition of the writing ....fingers ...toes ...everything crossed.
Tazzie
-
Dawn,
You are absolutely right, this is a great new :)
Words fail me to express the joy that is mine, it is necessary to leave me a little time ...
Robert is a little part of my family and I was desperate to know whether he had, yes or no a known grave, this is done.
I hope that one or more good souls may help for turn over the headstone and restore its dignity.
Thank you, thank you very much :'(
very friendly
Michel Knockaert
-
I'm so pleased for you all ............. if excitement alone could turn the stone over it would be done already.
Congratulations.
Barbara
-
Morning Tazzie and Barbara :)
At first I thought very emotional for my dear friend Annie who is still asleep at this time in her American Wild West: :-*
Without Annie , her fabulous work of conductor and her admirable desire to do good, none of this would have happened ....
Michel
-
Your words are so true Michel....
Annie has been our inspiration through this journey...we have had highs and lows as you know but she has kept us going...I am willing her to wake up early.
I hope this will lead to a success for you Michel as you have cared for this little piece of history for so long .
Tazzie
-
Dawn,
Any chance to get a photograph of the grave before it is repaired, to keep a trace of its dilapidated ?
If necessary, I am willing to give a few euros to redo the letters of the headstone ...
Michel
-
Michel
I will email and telephone 'Graham' at the church to see what we can do next.
Maybe Edna's sister can go again for us as long as we know where to find the grave in the churchyard.
Dawn
-
The very very best of regards and huge congratulations to you, Michel, who cared enough to start this wonderful search and is still caring so wonderfully.
Very well said, Tazzie.
The most enormous congratulations to Annie.
Many thanks to Dawn ...
Not to mention Edna - and let's hope that Edna's sister enjoys the continuing search ...
And everybody else involved.
This is a wonderful story and an inspiring thread.
JAP
PS: Do all please be very very careful if you try to turn the stone over.
-
How wonderful!
Dawn! I can only imagine how you must have felt reading Graham's email and then letting us know - your fingers probably couldn't type fast enough!! ;D
Quite fitting that it's Guy Fawkes - it's a fireworks sort of moment ;D
Even more fitting - this from St Peter's own website:
Remembrance is very much the theme for the first part of the month at St Peter's. On the 11th November we hold our traditional Remembrance day service in church at 10.30 am. After the service there is the opportunity to take part in the short service of remembrance outside the church at the war memorial. In the evening at 6.30 pm is our Memorial service details of which are listed on this page.
Memorial Service - Sunday 11th November at 6.30 pm
This evening service is especially for those who have been bereaved. In the past many who have come have said they found the service very special. We will be giving thanks for those who have died and commending them to God’s love, as well as hearting God’s words of comfort and reassurance.
During the service we will read out the names of those you wish to be remembered. If you are attending the service the names will be taken on the night but, should you be unable to attend or live at a distance, please feel free to contact us by email and let us know of any particular names that you wish us to mention. In addition, during the service, there will be an opportunity to light a candle, if you wish, in memory of a loved one
Maybe, Michel, you may wish to have Robert's name read out!
Cheers! Really Cheers!
AMBLY ;D
-
Its great news for Michel to have found the grave of Robert W Stead and hopefully it will be turned for us.
My sister is awaiting instructions so I will wait until given advice from Annie.
Good work by Dawnsh
Edna
-
Where IS Annie when you want her to wake up?? I really want to 'see' her excitement ;D ;D
Barbara
-
She was last online at 6.20 this morning UK time, she's having lots of beauty sleep ;D ;D
-
Will somebody please phone her ......... or throw a bucket of water over her ;D ;D
Barbara
-
Where IS Annie when you want her to wake up?? I really want to 'see' her excitement ;D ;D
Barbara
Barbara,
do not be surprise, for Annie it is just 6 am... and I know she do not sleep to much... PLEASE let her still sleep few minutes... !!! ;D ;D
Michel
-
Michel, it's 11pm here (Australia) and almost my bedtime - we would let her go back to bed AFTER we've seen her excitement? ;D ;) ;D
Barbara
-
Barbara
Don't have your warm milky drink just yet, it could be a late night ;D
Dawn
-
What exciting news! I've been following this thread and hoping for a development; just what I needed on a cold, miserable Monday.
Well done everyone.
Nanny Jan
-
Milk on hold Dawn ........... ;D ;D
Barbara
-
Can I go and have my lunch and watch 'Neighbours'? :D
-
How can you eat at a time like this ........... my tummy is doing somersaults :o :o :o
Honestly, you'd think I'd had some part in the search instead of just following it. :-\
Barbara
-
I've been sitting here all morning, supposed to be doing an essay for my genealogy course on Thursday, goes without saying I'm being very distracted and a long way off my 1500 word target, but this is much more exciting and this is only the anticipation of Annie waking up and finding out what's been happpening.
I'm going to the comfort station, have my lunch and be back in 1/2 hour, don't do anything without me
Annie's email inbox will have gone into meltdown by the time she get's here.
;D ;D
-
Doesn't ANYONE have her phone number ......... honest I will risk the wrath and phone her .......... I need my sleep!!!
Barbara
-
Doesn't ANYONE have her phone number ......... honest I will risk the wrath and phone her .......... I need my sleep!!!
Barbara
Barbara,
I have but I can not, I am at work and my Boss could not like that...
Michel
-
Many Congratulations Everyone ;D ;D ;D
I'm sure Annie won't be long........
Wendi :)
-
I live not too far from Woolton
And will assist in any atempt to turn over the stone.
But
I am not sure it is as easy as that.
You may need permmision from the church or relatives
The stone if big is going to be an awful weight also
I used to work in a cemetery and the stones if not handled properly could just snap in half
I think this needs to be looked into.
Also Health and safety issues may apply concerning Liverpool city council
But I will put my name forward ant how
Just arrange a time and if its not during kiddies pick up I will be there.
-
Doesn't ANYONE have her phone number ......... honest I will risk the wrath and phone her .......... I need my sleep!!!
Barbara
She will be on soon dont worry
Barbara,
I have but I can not, I am at work and my Boss could not like that...
Michel
-
She's online!!!!!
-
Somebody grab her quick ............. ;D ;D
-
Annie ......we are all here and waiting ..... :D
Tazzie
-
Annie ....................
-
Barbara.............have another coffee hang in there...
Annie where are you girl....
-
She's got at least 25 messages from this thread in her in box to go through :o
-
Oh be still my heart !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I can't believe it ! ..... after all this time Michel ...... I'm THRILLED !! Fireworks indeed !! ;D
Oh Dawn ..... that is the best news I've had in a long time .... my keyboard is flooded ! :'( :'( :'(
Let me just savour the moment !!
Annie x
-
Blimey .... just caught up with todays events """ :o Wow ... what a great result . SERIOUS CONGRATULATIONS TO EVERYONE ... Gosh ...and so emotional :'( : Annie and Michel ... you deserve a medal for this ...and all of you who never gave up ... xxxxx
Poll
-
Well done Annie ............... well done.
Barbara
-
Annie ....its been a long journey but you kept us all going ....
a result I believe I am proud to have played my little part
its pat on the backs all round ;D
Tazzie
-
Hello Annie
We've been a bit busy this morning, the thread has been filled with chatter, sort of off topic, hope the mods don't mind.
I think we all need to sit down and take deep breaths, and in and out and in and out.
When you've had time to compose yourself, have you any idea now what's the plan of action?
Take it very easy, and breath in and out ;D ;D
Dawn
-
I'm warming my milk ........ ;D
I'm still excited.
Barbara
-
You'll need more than milk now ;D
It's as exciting as Christmas eve ;D
Dawn
-
THE POWER OF ROOTSCHAT
Many Congratulations to all those who NEVER GAVE UP what a fantastic result, I hope with the right care the grave can be restored to its rightful position for all to see.
A special mention for Annie who started this whole thing off :D you are a star
CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU ALL.
-
How wonderful!
Dawn! I can only imagine how you must have felt reading Graham's email and then letting us know - your fingers probably couldn't type fast enough!! ;D
Quite fitting that it's Guy Fawkes - it's a fireworks sort of moment ;D
Even more fitting - this from St Peter's own website:
Remembrance is very much the theme for the first part of the month at St Peter's. On the 11th November we hold our traditional Remembrance day service in church at 10.30 am. After the service there is the opportunity to take part in the short service of remembrance outside the church at the war memorial. In the evening at 6.30 pm is our Memorial service details of which are listed on this page.
Memorial Service - Sunday 11th November at 6.30 pm
This evening service is especially for those who have been bereaved. In the past many who have come have said they found the service very special. We will be giving thanks for those who have died and commending them to God’s love, as well as hearting God’s words of comfort and reassurance.
During the service we will read out the names of those you wish to be remembered. If you are attending the service the names will be taken on the night but, should you be unable to attend or live at a distance, please feel free to contact us by email and let us know of any particular names that you wish us to mention. In addition, during the service, there will be an opportunity to light a candle, if you wish, in memory of a loved one
Maybe, Michel, you may wish to have Robert's name read out!
Cheers! Really Cheers!
AMBLY ;D
Oh my goodness Ambly what a good idea to "Our Robert's " name read out on that day ! :)
How wonderful ! ..... see we just KNEW he was there .... but everybody said "No " - the holiday Graham had - must have blown the cobwebs out ! and I am so very glad !
I couldn't post earlier ...... cos you guys were all telling me to get on !! ;D ;D ;D
Let's think about what to do now ..... we can't expect Edna's sister to turn stones and it will need more than one person Blue ( and thank you for your offer ! :) )
We need to ask Graham I think for the next steps ......... but in the meantime WOOHOO !! ;D
What a TEAM effort ..... this has been going for over 9 months and it feels like the blessed day has really arrived !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
And I must leave you to your celebrations .......... your well deserved celebrations. I only stayed up so I could 'see' your excitement Annie.
You know something .......... I'm really proud to be a part of RootsChat when I read this thread.
Congratulations to everyone who took part.
Barbara
-
Sweet dreams Barbara, thanks for hanging in there with us.
Dawn
-
Dawn I couldn't possibly have done anything else ....... I would NOT have slept a wink ;)
Good night, have a great day.
Barbara
-
Maybe we could all just take a minute ... to reflect ... Here is a photo I took just 2 days ago ... ..seems appropriate ...
Poll
I have a large one for printing if anyone wants to pm me
-
Now my keyboard is really flooded .......... !!
Thank you Poll !
-
Poll..........
Just beautiful........... :'(
Tazzie
-
Poll,
S'il vous plaît, arrêtez de me faire pleurer, je ne suis plus capable de lire sur mon écran :'(
C'est réellement magnifique (in french in the text)...
Michel
-
Hello all,
I hope I haven't trodden on toes, but I have just spoken with Graham the verger.
He's been there 6 years and has always been intrigued by the 5ft high memorial that is laid face down.
(That's a stonking great size for a headstone -please translate this for Michel ;D - and would have been quite costly)
He has no objections to a group lifting the stone under his supervision at an arranged time, gently cleaning it, taking photos before, during and after and then putting the stone back down flat either face up or face down. He presumes that as it's been face down for a while it may be fairly well preserved and he would be fascinated to see it as well.
It is unsafe to be put back in an upright postion, to do so will incur the time and costs of a monumental stone mason.
He is almost certain that Robert is the only one in the plot, but isn't 100%, the church records for this time are a bit woolly.
I have asked if it is possible to have Robert's name mentioned on Remembrance Sunday and he will arrange this.
Annie, I now have a favour to ask....
For Graham's interest, is it possible to have a potted history of Robert's life and times, I suppose the discovery of the tag is where to start. I don't feel at all qualified to do this as this has been your's and Michel's project for so long.
I have contact telephone numbers for Graham so that we can phone him and let him know what our decisions are.
Everyone, take care for now, I am so happy to have been a very small part of this awfully big adventure.
Dawn
-
Lordy Lordy ..... 5 foot ??..................... :) how could Graham have missed it the last time ??
Thank you Dawn .... no toes trodden on I assure you .... thank you so much for taking the initative !!
Here is the life and times of our Robert in a nutshell !maybe you can send this ....... !
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,261805.0.html
-
Michel I have sent you the large version .... sorry my French is about as good as my typing ! ;)
Poll
-
Wow what a fantastic result, have to say a big well done to all involved, it's made the hairs on my neck stand up :'( well done you brilliant people
Jane
-
Because of all Shaun J and Reivers sterling work on the webpages and censuses .......
and the wonderful " sticktoitness " of everybody who posted on this thread ...... we have a terrific result !
Oh ! and I have to mention St Antony who I talked to quite a bit ! :)
I can't believe it ........ my boys here thought I had "gone off !! "
all the whoopin' and hollerin ' ...... and YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks EVERYBODY !! :)
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Maybe Now the Liverpool Echo will run a Story !!! You never know .... maybe a Monumental Mason will get involved to help !! :o ;)
Poll
Maybe we should have the next Rootschat Meeting in Liverpool !!
-
A 5ft high memorial...............anyone know a local rugby team willing to help?
Nanny Jan
-
if the rugby team is coming well ;D its only four hours by train for me to come and help 8)
wonder if an article in the local paper might help? needed 15 men ;D
-
Very tongue in cheek, what about the local tv channel? ;D
Sorry I have had a funny old day today, when I got up this morning I had no idea this was all going to happen.
Dawn
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Morning all, where are you? I've got exciting news to share and no-one's around to hear :o
Im so excited for you all, I've just received this ;D ;D
Morning Dawn,
Robert Stead is indeed buried in the churchyard at St Peters.
Details are as your email in the burial register but the headstone on the
grave has fallen forward and cant be read.It is a large stone and I would
at sometime like to turn it over to read the inscription.
Regards,
Graham
Are there any volunteers to help turn it over ?? Would love to be there but London to Liverpool and back is not do-able during school hours.
Dawn
Dawn
Can you give me a rough idea where the grave lies
So I can take a look at how the headstone is postioned
-
Very tongue in cheek, what about the local tv channel? ;D
Sorry I have had a funny old day today, when I got up this morning I had no idea this was all going to happen.
Dawn
How abut contacting the royal Legion
See if they are prepard to help an old soldier
-
GOOD idea Blue ! ;D
Especially Anfield .... especially this week !!
How do we do that ??
Annie :)
And you too Dawn !! ;D
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41 branches of the Royal British Legion in West Lancs so we may be able to get advice or help from them.
The local TV would be a good idea all BBC local stations run feel good stories as I said before. I sent 2 e-mails to the Post and got nothing on running the story.
Tazzie
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This is just great news I have been following this thread from the start
I am looking forward to seeing some pictures of the headstone
How many of look for graves and headstone and don't find them and maybe we pass them unturned
Elizabeth
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As well as or instead of the British Legion what about the South Lancashire Regiment?
I think thats where the 6th Rifles, Kings Liverpool Regiment merged with.
They must have some strapping lads :o
Dawn
-
I'm at home tomorrow if you would like some phone calls made, but if anyone else wants to step forward, please feel free.
Dawn
-
Can you give me a rough idea where the grave lies
So I can take a look at how the headstone is postioned
The verger hasn't been specific yet, 'it's near the main path' is as much as I've got so far.
Dawn
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As well as or instead of the British Legion what about the South Lancashire Regiment?
I think thats where the 6th Rifles, Kings Liverpool Regiment merged with.
They must have some strapping lads :o
Dawn
Thats if Gordon Brown hasn't got them all
Dodgeing bullets in Iraq
Poor sods
-
As well as or instead of the British Legion what about the South Lancashire Regiment?
I think thats where the 6th Rifles, Kings Liverpool Regiment merged with.
They must have some strapping lads :o
Dawn
I think it was the Manchesters ... I'll have to check it out !! ;D
-
I'm at home tomorrow if you would like some phone calls made, but if anyone else wants to step forward, please feel free.
Dawn
Dawn ... you have been terrific ! ....
but can I ask if you would mind being the spokesperson with Graham ...... so he's not inundated dealing with too many people ??
Annie :)
-
Thats if Gordon Brown hasn't got them all
Dodgeing bullets in Iraq
Poor sods
I know Blue .... God love them ......
I hope in another 70 years - people don't have to do - what we're doing now ! :-\
-
How many of look for graves and headstone and don't find them and maybe we pass them unturned
Can't agree more Elizabeth ....... brings a whole new meaning to "leave no stone un-turned" :P sorry
Dawn,
Annie's right you seem to have "hit the right note with Graham" it would be great if you could keep it going.
If other calls have to be made to other folks.....Annie, knows where I am ;)
Wendi :)
-
Thanks Girlfriend !! ;D
-
That is so exciting ;D Well done to everybody involved, what a story ;D Beats Saving Private Ryan into a cocked hat. When's the film being made ;D
If I can help in anyway let me know. I have links with an environmental charity in Liverpool who do landscaping and the like. I might be able to enlist their help.
Well done again, all of you, and I'm just so sorry not to have watched this news unfold
Very best wishes
Tony
p.s. now that you have all got some free time on your hands could you have a look for.................. ;D ;D
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p.s. now that you have all got some free time on your hands could you have a look for.................. ;D ;D
LOL tony ;D but we have not completed the quest .......... YET
the objective is to return the tag to a descendent of 2nd Lt. Robert William Stead.
Here is a link to (hopefully) page 1 of the original thread which is now locked but is Liverpool Annie's original post (with photo). - you are looking for page 1
http://www.rootschat.com/links/025o/
Wendi :)
Helps if you remember to add the link ::)
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Have been following this story from its beginning, what a result! Brought tears to my eyes when reading his grave had been found.
Well done everyone ;D ;D ;D
Susan :)
-
I may have an avenue open to have the stone turned by someone in my nieces contacts who lives in Woolton so watch this space.
Annie I will PM you
Edna
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Just got back home after being in "cyber-space drought" land for 4 days!
Told Annie something would turn up as I could not see what was going on!! ;D
I am sooo glad it has too!
At least we all now know where 2nd Lt R W Stead, Machine Gun Corps, can be remembered and due to this thread it will now no longer be a mystery.
I think its a wonderful "touch" to ask for his name to be read out on Remembrance Day.
Lest we forget indeed........
Jude
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Hi Guys......
What a fantastic result , Brilliant !!
Have you that about getting in touch with the War Graves Commision ?
They may just be able to help, in this instance.
Being this time of year, they should be out and about sprucing things up for Sunday......Might be worth a try . They are online too .
JeannieR
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the objective is to return the tag to a descendent of 2nd Lt. Robert William Stead.
Hi Wendi
I've been thinking about that on the way home. There seems to be a scarcity of descendants and no one else is recorded as being buried with him, so who put up a huge memorial to him ??? Might be a line of enquiry for someone local as the memorial supplier might be located nearby and in my limited experience these firms tend to run in families and exist to this day. Just a thought.
And another thought have you ever noticed that headstones like bread and jam always fall jam face down ;D
Cheers
Tony
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Might be a line of enquiry for someone local as the memorial supplier might be located nearby and in my limited experience these firms tend to run in families and exist to this day. Just a thought.
Now there is a thought!
I know that stonemasons often mark their stones with a mason's mark which may to this day be identified by local masons ??? It's a pity Graham insists that the information is so foggy :-\
However what we really do need is a junior football team (all 15 years old ! ) to turn up after their Sunday morning match and help Graham turn the stone over ;D
Wendi :)
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There seems to be a scarcity of descendants and no one else is recorded as being buried with him, so who put up a huge memorial to him ??? Might be a line of enquiry for someone local as the memorial supplier might be located nearby and in my limited experience these firms tend to run in families and exist to this day.
Cheers
Tony
It's highly likely his wife had the memorial stone erected
It's a pity Graham insists that the information is so foggy :-\
Graham was only slighly foggy about Robert having been interred on his own, (they didn't have children and Elizabeth his wife outlived him and remarried.)
I've had another email from Graham this evening, I'll keep in touch with him.
But to be honest, even if the stonemasons are still in business, there isn't much now we don't know that they could possibly add, apart from possibly how much the headstone cost.
Dawn
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Michel I have sent you the large version .... sorry my French is about as good as my typing ! ;)
Poll
Good evening Poll,
thank you very much for the photograph's large version,
here is for you the translation of my message in french :
Please stop to make me cry, I am no longer able to read on my screen
It's really wonderful...
Thanks again
Michel
-
Good evening all,
I must tell you one thing... like us Sabine, my wife, is also very glad Robert is found because... she thinks now I FINALLY will stop looking for dead people... and stop to pass all my time on the internet...
But... do you believe all I really want... ;)
Michel ;D ;D
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Hello all
I'm just off to lie down in a quiet dark room, but before I go I've had another email this evening from Graham the verger.
Hi Dawn,
Sorry to get in touch again but I have just been reading the story of the
search on the rootschat website. What an incredible search you all have
made. I will bring this matter up with my boss and hopefully we can lift
the stone in a safe manner.Because of the health and safety issues we will
probably seek advice from our local stonemason to handle the stone with the
utmost care.
Sorry to read on one of the earlier threads that I had missed the name in
our records but I cant remember any earlier requests.
I find the story particularly interesting as I have a great interest in WW1
history and have visited the Somme area where Robert was injured on a
couple of occasions.
Once again,well done
Graham
Goodnight all
Dawn
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I may have an avenue open to have the stone turned by someone in my nieces contacts who lives in Woolton so watch this space.
Annie I will PM you
Edna
Good Evening Edna,
it will be great, thank you very much for all what you do
very friendly
Michel
-
Michel
it is a pleasure to be of help in such a lovely story as this one and to be able to see the grave stone of Robert after all this fine work will be wonderful especially if it were put back to its original position of where it once stood.
Edna
-
What a day it's been ........
I am so glad we were able to bring Robert in from the cold !! :)
God Bless you "Our Robert " just know that we're all still thinking of you after 71 years !!
Annie x
EDIT .... Sorry Robert it was 81 years ! :-\
-
And Michel ........ do you think Sabine really believes you're going to quit now -
looking for " dead people " ?? :o :o :o ::) oh boy !! ;D
-
And Michel ........ do you think Sabine really believes you're going to quit now -
looking for " dead people " ?? :o :o :o ::) oh boy !! ;D
I think no Annie... and she is right... ;D
I still have two or three battalions of brave men to bring in from the cold, as you said... ;)
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Cor blimey! I went to bed at page 15 and got up to page 21!! ;D ;D
A 5' stone!! He was honoured and well loved! My heart did a flip when I read that. I had always crossed my heart that he wouldn't be found in an unmarked grave. ;D ;D
Annie, Magic, eh! have you had breakfast yet!
Graham - how wonderful of you, to have become part of this story (and to have read all this - that would have taken more than a minute or two) and to have joined in the spirit of it all .
Michel! A battalion more!?? Uh-oh!! ;D Perhaps your lovely Sabine may wish to have a holiday in Liverpool now as payment for her patience and understanding- how about this weekend, you could make it for the Service? ;D ;D ;D
Just thinking, would the Church permit - if it were possible - to have someone attending to either audio tape or video the Rememberance service? As a 'momento' for Michel and Annie?
God Bless!
Cheers (3 of em!)
AMBLY
-
I am seriously thinking of trying to get there for the service :o :o :o
Has anyone got the postcode of the church ?
Poll
Thanks Michel... I did eventually work out what you had said ... but I couldn't see for crying too !!
-
Oh Poll ! :'(
How wonderful ..... I don't know postcodes any more it USED to be Liverpool 25 !! ::)
Hope somebody can tell you ... don't think it says on here !!
http://www.stpeters-woolton.org.uk/
Ambly - we need to hop on planes .... ( I wish !! ...... I can't right now ................. !! :P )
Annie
-
What a wonderful result! You all need a medal!
Graham sounds like a wonderful person to have on side, and with a genuine interest in this search.
I hope the stone can be placed in it's righful position. I wonder if there is a local business who may be willing to sponsor this (we need someone with money), especially at this time of the year. Does anyone have any idea how much this would cost?
As it is proving so hard to trace any living descendents of Robert, I wonder if his tag may be better off in a museum, with a picture of him (if there is one?) and some information about his life and death, and how the tag was discovered. It's a marvellous tale! A descendent may not necessarily appreciate it, or be interested.
Well done to you all.
-
Somehow I managed to get a link all wrong, but it did say postcode L37 7DP before it disapeared. Not saying it's right though ;)
T
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I have just found the church and church yard Graves on google earth and here is the address to find it on google earth
St Peter's Church
Church Rd
Woolton, Liverpool, Merseyside, L25 6DA, UK
I agree that the relatives are not close enough and it would be better given with the story and pictures to a worthy site but that would be the decision of Michele.
Edna
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Thanks Edna .. I 'll see how long it 'll take to get there on google earth... By the way has anyone approached the local tv station or radio station since we have discovered Robert's grave?
-
Everybody's in shock I think Poll ! ;D
Somebody mentioned it .... but I don't think anybody's done anything yet ! :)
Annie
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I think my sister may be able to organise that for us but lets see about getting the lifting of the gravestone organised first irons are already in the fire.
Edna
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I was just thinking that we could do with a filmcrew there when it is actually lifted as opposed to after the event .. lools like you could be now the co ordinator Edna ;) ... what a great job you have done too.... a big pat on the back for you too . So many people have done so much ...I am just in awe of you all .
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"It's a marvellous tale! A descendent may not necessarily appreciate it, or be interested.
From Ruskie"
I think that a museum would be the right place for Robert's Wrist Tag.
This year Robert William Stead who did not live long enough to enjoy the ensuing peace which was to follow the "WAR to end all WARS" and who was unlucky to have no children will no longer be a forgotten man beneath a fallen headstone. His name will be remembered in St. Peter's church and by his large extended family from around the world in their special prayers. The ones who cared. This is an extraordinary thing to happen. One can say , almost a miracle after a time lapse of 81 years.
My own father was lucky enough to come home in 1919 but the quest for Robert has made me think of how many of my dad's descendants, beside myself and surviving brother, will be thinking of their grandad, grt. grandad and g.g. grandad on that 11th hour on this coming11th day and
11th month....not very many, I think. Which brought me to the decision that the best place of care for Robert's wrist tag would be a museum.
Norah
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Oh, I DO love the idea of a film crew filming the lifting of the stone - how exciting! Does anyone out there have any connections in TV land?
The whole saga would make a wonderful film or mini-series or simply a great news story, and one which would have worldwide not just local appeal. I'd LOVE to see it.
At the very least would it be possible for a rootschatter to film the lifting of the stone and put it 'out there' for us all to see?
-
Are your feet touching the floor yet Annie??
Barbara
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Morning all just catching up with last nights mails
I wish I had been able to help as I have a camcorder and do a lot of videoing the sad thing is I live too far away
It has been a great story and thankfully through Michal and Annie and all of you good workers on rootschat Robert will be remembered this Sunday
I suppose our family were lucky one of my grandfathers came back from The Somme
although family have it he was never the same
God bless you Robert
Elizabeth
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Have just found this is it any good this was among the papers I have from my genealogy class
Commonwealth War Graves Commission
2 Marlow Road
Maidenhead
Berkshire
SL6 7DX
Tel: 01628-634221
website: www.cwgc.org
Elizabeth
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Hi all
I hope no one minds but I thought it would be a good Idea to contact a local Stone Mason in the area of the church to get some advice as to the costs that may be involved in the restoration & fixing of the 5 foot stone.
I have spoken to a wonderful lady called Monica, who has given me some advice, she beleives to put the stone back in its rightful place would cost around £175, this would entail fixing a 42" concrete base in the ground and a steel bar running up throught the stone to fully support it.
If the stone needed to be cleaned & restored the cost would be around £200.
A total of around £375
I told her the full story & she was amazed & delighted at your efforts.
I have also contacted a friend at the BBC to try to see if I can come up with any local TV crews to cover the story, am awaiting a reply
Hope no one minds just thought it may be a starting point
Judi
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Finding him is fantastic news!!
I'd love to see the turning of the stone.
Congratulations everyone ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
-
Oh how exciting Judi!
-
Oh Lord
I so hope I,am not stepping out of line here PLEASE don,t shout at me if I am.
BBC Radio/TV Liverpool, want all the details in an Email to put to their Editor ASAP
I have the Email address & contact details
As I have in no way helped with this I feel that Annie or some one close to the event should Email them with the full story.
If you contact me ASAP should you want the details PM me I will be online.
So sorry If I have stepped out of line
Judi
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Judi
If I might make a suggestion. As Annie doesn't usually come on board until much later, perhaps it might be an idea to PM her with all the details just in case you are off line when she does.
My apologies if I am stepping out of line here, as you've probably already thought of that.
This is getting sooooooooo exciting. ;D ;D
Barbara
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Judi, I see that Michel is online - I hope he will answer you. It's a great result, but I can understand how you must feel. Such a shame that Annie isn't online.
There is this link to the original thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,206958.0.html
(beware there are 45 pages - bit too much for you to email to the Editor, or maybe you could send this as a stopgap to give them something to mull over till Annie's back). I wonder if she'd mind? After all you'd only be bringing this topic to their attention, nothing more. It would be a shame to miss this opportunity due to time differences.
Wouldn't it be fantastic if they flew Annie and Michel to Liverpool for the service and lifting the stone!
I think you've done well ;D
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Hello Judi,
wonderful !!!
I agree with Barbara and I think we should not wait until Annie is awakened, to PM her now is a good idea.
I think also she is the best person for contacting.
very friendly
Michel
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Hi Judi ! to quote the great lady herself.....
Here is the life and times of our Robert in a nutshell !maybe you can send this ....... !
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,261805.0.html
Wendi :)
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Hi all
Well on your advice I have PM Annie, with the details & contacts.
I will stay on line if Annie wants to contact me. should she need any other details.
Oh I hope your all right & she won,t mind
Judi ???
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Judi, we'll all stand in front of you if she goes ballistic ............ which I don't for one minute think she will ;D ;D ;D It's more likely you'll have to duck from all the hugs she will send your way ;) ;)
Barbara
-
Oh my goodness, this is shades of yesterday waiting for Annie to get up . .. .. all this suspense is killing me .......... and I can't possibly go to bed till I find out what's happening.
ANNIE ................ wake up ;D ;D
-
Me too
I feel i,am sitting on the end of a ducking stool :(
Annie wake up & pull me out the pond
PLESEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ;D
Judi
-
Lordy lordy lordy !! ;D ;D ;D ;D
I just sent Judi a PM ... and I think it's a great idea .... as she's the one that made contact I think it would be a good idea for her to see it through !! ;D ;D
I know Dawn got in touch too but I don't want to put all the onus all one person
so if it's OK with Dawn - she can deal with Graham ......... and Judi can deal with "the media " !!!!!
Please nobody go over there trying to turn stones ..... let the people who do it for a living do it ...... don't want to hear of any bad backs .......... I'm too far away to bring grapes and Lucozade !!
I have to get breakfast - I'll be back in a bit !!
Annie :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,261805.0.html
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I've got good contacts into BBC North West and Granada if it helps.
Tony
-
I told you it would be OK Judi ........... ;D ;D ;D
I can go to bed now.
Barbara
-
What happened with contacting the living relatives? I saw that they have been contacted but have I missed where they replied?
-
I've got good contacts into BBC North West and Granada if it helps.
Tony
Ooooh Tony .... I forgot about that ....... !! should have asked you to talk to your friend Alan while you were there ! ..... how come I didn't think about that ?? ::) ;D
I haven't heard anything from the relatives - apart from the first contact - though it sounded really hopeful .... and I don't think Shaun J has either - otherwise he would have said !
Exciting times isn't it ?? ........ ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Annie :)
-
Hi all - this is exciting isn't it!
No I haven't heard anything from the descendants of Robert's cousin Alice Jarvis. Bob Titterington gave us the contact details for two of them (with their permission) and I think Annie has sent them emails (is that right Annie?).
-
Yes ... Bob said he was going to let them know .... and I think he heard back from one of them ..... but I didn't get anything ! :-\
Shaun ..... it's lovely for "our Robert " to have all this attention isn't it ??
I got kind of carried away last night telling my friend all the news of the day ...... ( I do have a good imagination you have to understand ..... but I was imagining "taps" and even a flag ..... that would be so cool !!)
The more publicity we get ........ the better ........ I think !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Michel must be beside himself with all the goings on here !! ;D ;D
-
A bit late in the day but has anyone contacted Robert's regiment? (I've been busy and not got the whole story, sorry) What about an article for one of the family history magazines?
By the way, can anyone tell me the title of the painting used by Michel as his avatar? My French is not good enough to ask him directly!
Nanny Jan
-
I have heard from my sister again who has today been back to the cemetery to take some pictures of Roberts grave now its been found.
She has taken photos from all angles and has one with Graham the Verger at the grave and also the book and paperwork have also been photographed and will try to get them to me via e mail if she can get the photo shop to do it for her as she is not computer literate.
She said that Graham is a lovely man and is happy to help with this story and they will say a few words about Robert at the memorial service.
He told her that television channels have already been in contact with him today.
I will let you know more about the pictures as I receive it.
Edna
-
By the way, can anyone tell me the title of the painting used by Michel as his avatar? My French is not good enough to ask him directly!
Nanny Jan
Just to go off topic a minute it's the
"The Last Absolution of the Munsters " .......... but please don't get him going on that .... we'll be here all day !! :) :)
From Orange, Green and Khaki -
"On the evenng of 8th May, under command of Lt-Col. V.G.H. Rickard, 2nd Munsters once again marched towards the Front. At a French wayside shrine, Rickard halted the the Battalion and formed a hollow square before it. On three sides were the rifle companies, and facing them on horseback were Col. Rickard, his adjutant, Capt. Filgate and the Chaplain, Father Gleeson. Gun flashes added to the semi-light of a spring evening; gunfire and shell explosions reminded all of the ordeal to come. All bared their heads and the light breeze ruffled hair and caused to flutter the green company standards. Father Gleeson's stole made a splash of soft colour. The chaplain raised his right hand and intoned general absolution and all sang the Te Deum. Then, to the barked command of RSM Ring, the march resumed towards the sound of the guns."
The scene was well captured on canvas by Fortunino Matania
Beautiful isn't it ?? ... very poignant .... as the battalion were practically wiped out the next morning !
-
I have heard from my sister again who has today been back to the cemetery to take some pictures of Roberts grave now its been found.
She has taken photos from all angles and has one with Graham the Verger at the grave and also the book and paperwork have also been photographed and will try to get them to me via e mail if she can get the photo shop to do it for her as she is not computer literate.
She said that Graham is a lovely man and is happy to help with this story and they will say a few words about Robert at the memorial service.
He told her that television channels have already been in contact with him today.
I will let you know more about the pictures as I receive it.
Edna
Edna .... that's wonderful news ! thank you and your sister VERY much ! :)
Annie
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Hi all
Just to update the days events.....
BBC TV have all the details as have BBC Radio Liverpool. editors meeting tomorrow, fingers crossed all.
I have been in contact with a stone mason who will look at the grave ASAP to access the requirements for relocation to its proper place & costing,s although I would hope we can find someone willing to undertake the work ie his old Regiment or the war graves people.
So I think (we have moved as far forward as is possible at this stage, I will try to arrange the Stone Mason for tomorrow
Judi xxxxx ;)
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Hi Judi !
The stone mason might be a little beyond our scope ..... we don't know how badly it's damaged and I know that Michel is looking into some things too ! .... though it doesn't do any harm for them to take a look !! :)
as regards the Regiment ..... Robert finished up in the Machine Gun Corp - although the Liverpool Kings was his regiment starting out .... !!
I think it would be lovely if they took an interest .... but I don't think we can ask for anything ! :)
Annie :)
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Hello all
Sorry I've not been here so far today.
I know we are all really excited about moving the story forward, but with regards to the headstone, I think we need to be patient and wait to see what happens over the next few days.
Graham the verger has taken this story to his boss to see what the Church can do with regards to lifting cleaning etc (see post #297 on page 20)
But my thoughts are now running along these lines...
We don't own the plot, we don't know who owns the plot, we didn't buy the headstone, it is not our headstone to do anything with, the church may not want to have the stone put back in an upright position, it fell forward for a reason, ie it wasn't erected with today's health and safety standards in mind, they may want it put back face down as it was.
It's interesting to know that possibly something could be done, but we must wait for the Church to make a decision.
I don't want to be a wet blanket and dampen enthusiam but I will contact Graham over the next few days, without pestering him, and see if the Church has an answer for us.
Dawn
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I agree Dawn ! .... and you're right ......... it's not our headstone !
Like I said doesn't do any harm for them to take a look ... but I don't think we can give them any business ..... so to speak !!
We have to be a bit careful here and be aware that although we all think Robert is "ours" he really isn't ..... and we have to do the right thing by him .... which is move with dignity and respect !
Annie :)
-
Well said Dawn and Annie too far too fast,
sister just rang and the shop wouldnt send the pics so my niece may do them tonight otherwise snail mail and sister said that no damage to the stone just the cement at the base where it came over.
Edna
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Re the Headstone
I agree........... we need to know more
No worries on that... I can hold off with the Stonemason, he offered to access the extent of restoration needed & advise on the best way forward, Its part of their service.
We can contact him later should we need to
Judi :D
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CONGRATULATIONS ONE AND ALL. What a wonderful result. You have all worked so hard and Michel must be over the moon.
I look forward to reading more.
Kesannah
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This is a fantastic story and a tribute to some amazing detective work.
But in common with others I think things have now started to move rather too fast.
Please lets cool down a little and just wait for a response from the Church. I'm sure it will be positive!
Jennifer
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Yes, I also feel it could be how the church want the stone to be.
I don't know if Liverpool council have any input in private graveyards on Merseyside
But they do have a policy of knocking over the stones themselves to stop any possible toppling.
It may be better just to turn the stone over to be read rather than erecting it
Also the financial aspect
Who will pay the stone mason
Are we going to start a fighting fund
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Hi Guys.....
Good news on the media front. That should help get some support for a Liverpool boy.
I am pleased that Graham now seems to be as hooked as the rest of us but as Dawn says now we must wait. We all think of Robert as "our Robert" but the plot probably has 100 years ownership on it and we do not know if anyone else is also interred.
Tazzie................still beaming ;D
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...and on top of it all you bring out a painting by Fortunino Matania....
You can bet every detail on that painting is right, he was like that.
Haven't added a comment till now, I have nothing to contribute, but I would like to see the headstone in it's rightful possition and a tele crew there to cover the event and tell a little about Roots and the quest.
As for the tag, a military museum or a local museum, with print outs of the quest for reference.
Bless you all.
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Hi all
As we have to be PC here with regards to ownership etc of the plot that Robert was laid to rest in...... that would more than likely be the benficiary to Elizabeth Hurst's will - which ever one got the balance of the estate..... I have not got a copy but I know one of you guys out there have.... perhaps it's an avenue we have not already been down. ( i recall a firm of solicitors and trying to find out re the main benficiary). This is assuming of course that as Elizabeth's father (Mr Grant) registered the death they also funded the burial too.
Does the church not have any records as to whom purchased the plot and for how long 50, 100 years etc. Is this a query we could ask Graham if any clues are around anywhere?
Sorry to be a party pooper but I think its something that will need clearing up before we go marching in there with a rugby team, block and tackle.
M
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Sister has had the photos sent to me in a zipped file and I cant see them so need advice from a techie please before I can post them
Edna
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if she can get the photo shop to do it for her as she is not computer literate.
Perhaps she has just done a crash course Edna ;D
If it's "WinZipped" this might help ~ choose the "try first" option
http://www.rootschat.com/links/025w/ basically you need to download the the program to your computer, so you can un-zip it
Wendi :)
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Wendi
First I looked up help and followed instructions opened my documents where file was and then clicked on properties and then unblock file as this file was blocked by windows
Then I get message Problem with shortcut "The drive or network connectionsthat the shortcut to 100_3354.ink refers to is unavailable make sure the disk is properly inserted or the network resourse is available then try again.
I Then downloaded the winzip as you suggested and unzipped the file but still getting this notice.
I would love to see the photos myself as well as displaying them here.
Edna
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Edna .... Berlin Bob is on line .... maybe you could send him a PM !
Annie :)
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so need advice from a techie please before I can post them
What were you talking about Wendi :P - your no techie :P
Edna get Bob on it ;D
Wendi :)
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Thank you for all your help I have now sent the e mail off to roadrunner and asked he/she to pick out the photos and post them for me as its too technical for me so I hope this will be possible and we get to see the Gravestone and documents so waiting in anticipation
Edna
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Edna !
I need a brown paper bag .... I'm hypoventilating here !! ::) ::) ::) :)
I'm on the edge of my seat ..... just too exciting !! :D
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Paper bag for Annie :o :o :o :o :o :o :o ;)
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Annie it seems as though the person who sent them to me did not include the photos only the icons so sister has now gone back to them to see if they can do it again Thanks for trying roadrunner I may need you again so wait up and watch this space.
Edna
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;D ;D ;D ;D
Poor sister ! .....
she's going to need a LARGE Brandy after all this ... God love her !! ;D
You know she's going to refuse all of your hairbrain ideas for the next 5 years Edna !! ;D ;D
Annie :)
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Annie she loves it and do you know she met Bob Paislys son today and took his photograph by Bills grave so that is payment enough for her as she is doing a pictorial history of Liverpool for her decendants and she was there last week getting photos of Ellenor Rigbys and Father McKenzies Graves and has put pots of roses on the graves called rememberance.
Edna
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Oh Edna
I've got goose bumps that so sweet of her, she has done so much running round bless her.
Hope she can sort out the problem ,she deserves a very large brandy after all this.
Judi
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Has anyone thought to just post a new thread just to ask any Rootschatters in Liverpool or the close proximity to visit this thread (possibly in red ! )and possibly go to the Service? ... It's nearly 3 hours away for me so I am unable to make it but there a lot of people who don't know about this thread .... I've been directing quite a few to it .. Just a thought so we might have a "presence " there on Sunday...
Poll
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Hi Poll,
Unfortunately I will be going south this weekend, so I can't get there :( can i have the photo by PM so i can have a candle lit with a copy of your beautiful photo to post back here as a memento. I will send you PM with e-mail address.
thanks
Tony
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I'll post it Poll !
I did say it on the Rememberance thread ....... but it's probably on page 20 by now !! ;D
How I wish I could be there !
Annie
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Good evening all,
Everything is so fast that I can no longer translate quickly enough, I am completely lost ...
But I believe that I understood the essence and I dont know what to say .... I think living a dream ...
Michel
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I have just had an e mail from the girl sending the pictures and she has tried for the last two hours unsucessfully to send them as she had only previously sent the shortcuts so is giving back the disc to my sister tomorrow and my sister is going to post it out to me via snail mail so you can all sit back and relax as it may take a day or two to do it.
Thank you for your patience.
Edna
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Michel,
I love you for you for what you have tried to achieve. So many thanks for both remembering Robert, and trying to make a difference in this world, I just wish we could remember and learn.
Best wishes
Tony
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Good evening all,
Michel
Can I just say one thing ..... how come a Frenchman .... can sound like Jack Warner ?? ::) ::)
And Edna .... I know we're all disappointed including you ..... but don't stress OK ? ..... this is just making things all the more exciting ! :) :)
Annie :)
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Dixon of Dock Green was French??
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My Sweet Annie.....And Everyone.....
I am so proud to belong here....
Is anyone going to the service on Sunday ?
My dear one is out...but if he comes in happy, I will try, with my feminine wiles, to get him, to take me , from Yorkshire, to my ancestral home, Lancashire on the 11th November.
Said Dear one , has just arrived home !! in a happy mood !!
He as asked me to find the address of the church......Now to sit him down, to read the thread .....he can cry like a baby !!
JeannieR
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Jeannie ..... you're bad !! :P
Tell that lovely man of yours .... he deserves a break ..... and they still sell good bitter in the "Pool " !! ;D
I put details on a thread in the Common Room but I'll add it here too !!
Annie :)
PS Shame it's a Sunday .... you could have looked up our Howarths ...... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I would like to invite any Rootschatters in Liverpool or the close proximity to possibly go to
St Peter Church Woolton on Rememberance Day
On the 11th November they hold their traditional Remembrance day service in church at 10.30 am. After the service there is the opportunity to take part in the short service of remembrance outside the church at the war memorial. In the evening at 6.30 pm is their Memorial service
On our "Are You Sitting Comfortably thread " we have found Robert William Stead buried in the churchyard ( along with Eleanor Rigby and Bob Paisley !! )
It would be lovely to know that as they speak his name .... there will be people there who know about him ! .... I wish I could be there .... but I will light a candle at the right time !
Annie :)
http://www.stpeters-woolton.org.uk/
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Annie....and All......
Jim is looking at the map, and he has said we are going !
( No feminine wiles used yet !! )
My chance to do a few look ups at the library . YES !!!!
JeannieR
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Dixon of Dock Green was French??
Yep ! and Inspector Jacques Clouseau was from Scottie Road ::)
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Annie....and All......
Jim is looking at the map, and he has said we are going !
( No feminine wiles used yet !! )
My chance to do a few look ups at the library . YES !!!!
JeannieR
Lovely Jeannie ! ........ I'm so pleased ! :) :)
Good man that Jim ....... and you can tell him I said so !! ;D
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I have just found the church and church yard Graves on google earth and here is the address to find it on google earth
St Peter's Church
Church Rd
Woolton, Liverpool, Merseyside, L25 6DA, UK
Just reposting this for anyone going on sunday
Edna
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I have just had an e mail from the girl sending the pictures and she has tried for the last two hours unsucessfully to send them as she had only previously sent the shortcuts so is giving back the disc to my sister tomorrow and my sister is going to post it out to me via snail mail so you can all sit back and relax as it may take a day or two to do it.
Thank you for your patience.
Edna
Edna
Would you like me to have a go see if I can send them before she tries snail mail
I live in Childwall
I can pick them up if you like from your sister if shes in Liverpool
Its up to you.
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Thanka for the very kind offer Heyesie but I have only just come back on line and the pics are already in the post now so will have them tomorrow with a bit of luck and a good postal service.
Edna
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Edna
Just being slow on the uptake.....
Am I right in thinking ********** ?
Dawn
Edited so the gaff isn't blown anymore ;D , sorry mods if I shouldn't have done it
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Michel,
I love you for you for what you have tried to achieve. So many thanks for both remembering Robert, and trying to make a difference in this world, I just wish we could remember and learn.
Best wishes
Tony
My pleasure Tony, really my pleasure.... and my heart...
Thank you very much for your kind comment.
And let us remember all of them
very friendly
Michel
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This is one remembrance I would have loved to have gone to but I live far too far away
But I will remember this young man on Sunday as I will along with my husbands uncle who died in Burma in 1945 only 23 yrs old
What a shame
Lets not forget all young lads away just now overseas fighting for peace in the world
Elizabeth
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Slow ........... did you say Dawn ??
That's what happens when you think too much !! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Dawn
I tried not to put it into print but you have ******** My mistake was that she took his photo by Roberts grave not Bob Paisleys.
Edna
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Here are the photos as promised
Edna(http://)(http://)
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(http://)
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(http://)
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(http://)
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Oh how lovely to see the photo's, but I can't read the print in the book, do we know what it actually says ........ I can just about make out Robert Stead ......... My eyes aint what they used to was!!!
Barbara
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Hello Edna,
thank you, thank you very much, what a wonderful work !!!
I am very happy and relieved to finally see the place where Robert is.
God bless you and your sister
Michel
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Think the second row is his address ...
Great to see the photos.
Looks like a bit of superglue woud see that stone right ;). Joking aside, do you think that was taken down due to it being unsafe (if so, why lie it face down?) or did it fall? It's a wonder it didn't break.
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Edna....
Fantastic to see the photos. The stone looks in good condition and in one piece.
Thank you to your sister :)
Tazzie
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The details on the book are Robert William Stead The Cot Grange Lane Gatacre 11 th October 1926 age 30 years and the signature of the vicar looks like H?Gibbons
I have more photos but these are the main ones and a photo of Graham the verger but cant post that without permission.
I would be willing to sendt the pictures in their entirity to Michel and Annie if required.
Edna
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Edna,
PLEASE ;), do you allow me for sending my email address for the photographs in their entirity ?
Michel
PS it will be a fabulous gift
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Thank you for the details Edna, I could only make out a couple of things.
Please thank your sister for us.
Barbara
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I hope Graham won't mind my drawing attention to his page on the St Peters website http://www.rootschat.com/links/0267/
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Lovely to see the photos ;D
The Cot Grange Lane Gatacre
So it definately was "The Cot" then ;D
Wendi :)
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Edna .... tell sister thank you ! ....... and thank you to you for giving them to us !
I was surprised .... it wasn't in as bad a shape as I thought ..... doesn't look like it would take that much to fix it !!
but still what a shame !! ...... though I keep forgetting it's over 80 years old !! ::)
God Bless you Robert ..... I'm so glad we've found you !
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I'm supposed to be doing dinner, but when this came up...what the hey....
Thank you sister for me, Edna, and thanks for your patience in putting the pictures up.
I'm wondering if someone pushed the stone for a bit of fun...it looks in very good condition.
If it's not possible to lift it, turning it to bring his name into the sunlight again would be a nice thing.
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A Truly Memorable day .. Edna well done to you and your sister for finally getting the pics to us ...I have tried to improve the sharpness and perspective of the entry in the book ....but not sure it has worked ??? ::) If I can be of any help with the presentation of the pics Edna ... framing etc please don't hesitate to ask ... I'll pm you my address in case ..
Poll
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Has anyone looked the Cot up by the way
I thought when I first seen it at the library
It was an abbreviation for cottage.
If I get around there tonight I will take a look.
I will take my camera out with me just in case.
I know as soon as you turn into Grange lane from Gatacre park drive
There is a old house on the corner
But I'm sure this is the lodge.
There still some lovely old houses still along Grange lane
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(http://)
I think this has been placed down
If that has dropped. it would have done some damage to itself and also the stone below
If you look behind the grave it is too near to the one behind to place facing up
So would encroach on the other persons grave
It has just been too heavy to turn around for the folk who have do this.
This is policy now to push down these stones in Liverpool.
There was trouble a few years back at Anfield cemetery when this was done
The relatives kicked up a stink about not being able to see the writing.
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Hi Blue !
Mary A found the Grange Cottages .... right when we first started !! I can't quite remember exactly but I don't think it was ever figured out which one was "The Cot " :-\
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,206958.60.html
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The Cottage
Grange Lane
Gateacre
LIVERPOOL
L25 5JX
Hi Annie
I found two listed as the Cottage
Maybe the names could have ben changed down the years also
To suit an indivdual family
A search of a trade directory may give a clue
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Grange Cottage
Grange Lane
Gateacre
LIVERPOOL
L25 5JZ
See here is another
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I just called in to see the pics. Thanks for posting those Edna and please thank your sister for taking them.
Perhaps Michel should send a picture of himself as he started this whole "adventure"
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Me too! ;D ;D : Thanks Edna and Sister for getting these photo's! Great job ;D
Great to see his name in print in the Book too (And thanks to Poll for enlarging it ;D)
I was also interested to read about the purposeful laying down of stones in Anfield , Heyesie!Wow! Did they not at least take a record of the incscription, photograph them, or give interested societies a chance to do that, before they lay them down!!!!!???
Cheers
AMBLY
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My Sister also sent me the parish magazine and there is this verse in it for Sundays remembrance Day
The Soldier
If I should die, think only this of me:
That there's some corner of a foreign field
That is for ever England. There shall be
In that rich earth a richer dust concealed;
A dust whom England bore, shaped, made aware,
Gave, once, her flowers to love, her ways to roam,
A body of England's, breathing English air,
Washed by the rivers, blest by suns of home.
And think, this heart, all evil shed away,
A pulse in the eternal mind, no less
Gives somewhere back the thoughts by England given;
Her sights and sounds; dreams happy as her day;
And laughter, learnt of friends; and gentleness,
In hearts at peace, under an English heaven.
By Rupert Brooke
I thought it would be apt to print it on this thread.
Edna
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It is Edna
you have all done so well
Elizabeth
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Me too! ;D ;D : Thanks Edna and Sister for getting these photo's! Great job ;D
Great to see his name in print in the Book too (And thanks to Poll for enlarging it ;D)
I was also interested to read about the purposeful laying down of stones in Anfield , Heyesie!Wow! Did they not at least take a record of the incscription, photograph them, or give interested societies a chance to do that, before they lay them down!!!!!???
Cheers
AMBLY
Liverpool City council we are talking off here Ambly
I think the word incompetent may be a little to weak to describe them
However, Ignorant and arrogant do sum them up a little
I think what happend back then was
That they should have first tried to contact next of kin
But they went at it gung ho
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Having recently had experience of "health and safety" of a headstone - and it's a saga - basically all NEW headstones have to have a metal rod through the headstone itself into its own base and then into the base on the ground, bolted fashion apparently - the bit in the ground to the base of the headstone.
When we asked why it was "just so" we were advised by the stone mason that it was to ensure that when "leant" against the darn thing did not fall over and compromise the safety of the person leaning on the headstone! ( should the said leaning person not be leaning against something that is not theirs to lean on? - i think I missed something there)
One of course can get insurance to repair any damage but "act of God" is not admissable. One has to prove vandalism to obtain a payout, so the plan is that the wind, rain, freeze/thaw erosion will only kick in once I am underneath said object by which time I think I may just be past caring!
The red tape made me cynical and I apologise wholeheartedly if I seem "hard" to my recently departed loved one's memorial. That's what I wanted a memorial - not a liability.
Edna - thank you for showing us the piccies - we now know what we are dealing with and the potential "costs" which will be more than a few quid, should we be allowed to "right" the stone and make safe.
On Sunday when I go and have a chat with Dad I may just have a lean or two to break up the conversation so he can "tut" at me as he did so well.......
M
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Oh Mair !! ..... he'll probably let you know ... you should lean on your own dinner !! ;D
Enjoy your visit ! :)
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My name is Graham (Verger at St Ps Liverpool) and I have recently become involved in your search through an enquiry from Dawn. I am amazed and impressed at the amount of research that has gone on. Can I just comment on a couple of items in the thread. I have worked at St Peter's for six years and the stone and I have no memory of the headstone being uporight. It was not laid down by the church but has fallen> from the pictures it is clear that the original stone was only fixed with a small amount of cement which has just weathered. The headstone and plinth that appear attached will probably come apart if lifted and great care will be needed lifting the stone to avoid any damage. However from what I can see of the underside of the headsone the inscription is in good condition.
The burial record book that you have seen on the thread is the only documentation of the burial we have in the church records. Hope this is of some use and I will try to keep you up to date.
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Hello Graham and welcome to RootsChat.
Isn't it just amazing what the girls and guys have found out about Robert Stead, your involvement is also greatly appreciated.
Thank you for allowing photo's to be taken of both the gravesite and of the burial book, it makes Robert a little more real for those of us who cannot attend in person.
Thanks again
Barbara
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Good Morning Graham.
Many thanks for your help and interest in this little project that Annie began many months ago.
It is good to see the photo's and to see where "our Robert" is at peace.
As you say the stone looks good and solid so we all wait to see what can be done with your kind permission. I am sure Michel would love to see the insrciption as would we all. This story has inspired many on the site and to have his name read out on Sunday would be very fitting.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning we will
remember them.
Tazzie
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Morning Everyone........
And Hello Graham, how lovely of you to contact us.....
I live in Harrogate , North Yorkshire. A few years ago, a little boy of 6/7 was killed, whilst "playing" in one of our local cemeteries . A Memorial stone fell on him.
Since then, all insecure headstones have been laid down, and have remained so, unless of course there were relatives, to re-erect them.......
What I really want to know is......Is there anyone else going to the service on Sunday?? My Husband has said he would take me, but it is at least a three hour drive (at our age !!)
It would make the journey so much more worthwhile, if I could meet up with one of you guys..........Just wish it could be Annie........
Going to work now .
JeannieR
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Hello Graham,
thank you very much for your precious help.
As say Tazzie I would really love to see a photograph of the inscription on Robert's headstone when it will be re-erected, in waiting for the moment I could be myself, in front of the grave...
very friendly
Michel
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Morning Everyone........
And Hello Graham, how lovely of you to contact us.....
I live in Harrogate , North Yorkshire. A few years ago, a little boy of 6/7 was killed, whilst "playing" in one of our local cemeteries . A Memorial stone fell on him.
Since then, all insecure headstones have been laid down, and have remained so, unless of course there were relatives, to re-erect them.......
What I really want to know is......Is there anyone else going to the service on Sunday?? My Husband has said he would take me, but it is at least a three hour drive (at our age !!)
It would make the journey so much more worthwhile, if I could meet up with one of you guys..........Just wish it could be Annie........
Going to work now .
JeannieR
It is a very long way to come but should anyone visit St Ps please introduce yourself to me. Please note that the names of those who have died are only read out at our 6.30 service.
Our information notice gives details on
www.stpeters-woolton.org.uk
and click link to notice sheet.
Graham
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Hi Graham !
Good to "see" you !! ..... can I be nosey and ask what your boss thought about all this when you told him ?? and also would there be a chance of the service being recorded .... I for one would be thrilled to buy a CD or tape or give a donation or whatever .... time is running short I know to set anything up ..... but us expats from all over the world that have contributed to this thread would be interested I'm sure !!
I would be there in a heart beat if I could :'( .... I'm so envious of you guys being able to be there if you possibly can .... but what a shame the names are only read out at the evening service .... I hope that doesn't put you all off !!
Jeannie .... one of these days Girl .... we'll get together !! ;D ;D
Annie :)
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Welcome to Rootschat Graham.... .amazing story isn't it? ... What a good idea Annie about the cd or a dvd of the service that includes the reading of the names .. I agree it is a shame about it only applying to the evening Service .. I can understand not reading a long list twice in the day ... but I suspect a few people travelling long distance would hope to be on their way home by 6 pm .. Regardless I shall have him and countless others in my mind on Sunday at 11am... It does rather feel as if we have adopted Robert doesn't it? :)
Poll
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Welcome Graham, thank you for taking an interest in Robert and taking the time to join us.
I'll be watching TV as HM The Queen lays a wreath on behalf of her subjects, and I'm sure we shall all be together in spirit, on Sunday, what ever part of the globe you live ;)
Wendi :)
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What a very moving story, I have just read it all and cannot help being very impressed by the huge amount of work that has gone into this.
The photos are brilliant Edna. What a very impressive and inspirational work by all of you.
Lovely to have the Verger join in as well. Welcome Graham.
Well done everybody. I shall be thinking of you all when I stand outside our church by our own War Memorial on Sunday Morning.
Rabbit B ;)
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I just wanted to say "Hello!" to Graham also ;D
and to say, you may well easily recognise Rootschatters who come to the Sunday Service - they will be the ones seen lying on the ground, trying to see what it says on the underside of THAT stone, possibly with a small digital camera as far under as it will safely go..... ;D ;D ;D
Joking aside, I too will be thinking of you all on Sunday UK time, and remembering all our brave soldiers and their brave families too.
God Bless
AMBLY
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Hello and welcome to Graham!
Unfortunately the evening service will coincide with hospital visiting and my mum's been in Fazakerley for the last couple of weeks.
If I can make it at all I will be there for the 10.30 am service - I'll be the one wearing a poppy ;) ;D
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I just wanted to say "Hello!" to Graham also ;D
and to say, you may well easily recognise Rootschatters who come to the Sunday Service - they will be the ones seen lying on the ground, trying to see what it says on the underside of THAT stone, possibly with a small digital camera as far under as it will safely go..... ;D ;D ;D
Joking aside, I too will be thinking of you all on Sunday UK time, and remembering all our brave soldiers and their brave families too.
God Bless
AMBLY
Thats a good idea
And here's me going to bring my six year old son
to crawl under with my video cam ;D
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I thought a lot about Robert today !
Robert William Stead
A spirit that knew not December - that brightened the sunshine of May
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Went to the service at the Village Memorial this morning, and was thinking about everyone in Liverpool and wondering how many went to the service in the end
Rabbit B :)
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Good evening All,
I attended today at 11.00 am, at Mazingarbe, the commemorative ceremonies of the armistice of Nov. 11 1918.
Throughout these ceremonies Robert's Medal did not leave the palm of my hand, I felt that he was there with me, especially when the musicians played "God save the Queen".
Michel
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I thought a lot about Robert today !
Robert William Stead
A spirit that knew not December - that brightened the sunshine of May
Lovely Annie, really Lovely...
Michel :)
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Good evening All,
I attended today at 11.00 am, at Mazingarbe, the commemorative ceremonies of the armistice of Nov. 11 1918.
Throughout these ceremonies Robert's Medal did not leave the palm of my hand, I felt that he was there with me, especially when the musicians played "God save the Queen".
Michel
I'm sure he was Michel ... I felt the same at our service ... .
Poll
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I was at the National Cemetery here - for their Remembrance and at 11.30am there was a Flypast ..... everybody stood and applauded .... ! took me a while to gain my composure ....
Robert was very much in my thoughts ....... along with a few others !! .... here's the program and the "Buddy Poppy " I wore !!
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I did attend the lovely morning service which was packed to the gills. I met Graham who is a very nice gentleman, and took another photo of the Burial Register, hopefully it might be clearer. I'll post this when I get a chance to download it.
While I was there nobody else came to introduce themselves to Graham so I don't think anybody else attended.
Graham, when I told my son I'd met you he said "Wow". He's only 26 but obviously Bob's legend lives on.
Mary
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I'm glad you went Mary !!
Graham .... thank you for be available for whoever was able to get there ..... I bet through the coming months you'll meet a few others !! :) :)
Annie :)
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Mary you did well I wish I could have been with you
I watch the TV as we were at our holiday home for the weekend I did stand up out of my chair at eleven o'clock I thought of my husbands uncle , my grt uncle and of Robert and i wondered if anyone was at the church from rootschat
He can have a little rest now until hopefully some relative can be found
Elizabeth
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Dear Mary,
Thank you for attending the ceremony and to have been somehow our "ambassadrice plénipotentiaire"...! :)
very friendly
Michel
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I'm sorry Guys.....
Feel I let you all down, by not attending on Sunday.
We were going down on the Saturday, staying overnight, attending the morning service....and driving home.....
But with Robert's name not being read out until the 6.30pm service, we would have had to drive home in the dark, and neither of us enjoy it anymore....my eyes are not good, but better after my cataract operation.....and Jim is 74 years old. night driving really bothers him......
We are, however, committed to going to place flowers on Roberts grave.
We watched "My boy Jack" on Sunday evening, and it really brought home the plight of Our boys in WW1....and for Robert to come home, and die so soon afterward, was really sad.......
Jeannie
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Jeannie
Don't let it worry you
I too don't like driving in the dark now
Your thoughts were there I'm sure
Elizabeth
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You didn't let us down Girlfriend .... NOT AT ALL !!!!!
I thought it would be a bit much having to wait till 6.30pm .... far too late for you to get back !!
I'm just glad we were all able to think about him .....
Poor Robert ..... he's never had so much attention ... I bet he's loving it !! ;D
Annie :)
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Annie
Talk about turn in your grave
I bet poor Robert wishes he could come and help you all
He seems as if he is a lot of peoples thoughts just now
RIP Robert
Elizabeth
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And so say all of us! RIP Robert
Rabbit B
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Aw JeannieR I felt the same ... :( I was in the middle of arranging to go when I read that his name was being read at the evening Service which was gong to make the day too long for us also :'( Nevertheless he was in my thoughts when I went to our local service.. I watched the Festival Of Remembrance on Saturday on BBCand I have to say I thought it was the best ever. Catherine Jenkins singing the theme from Band of Brothers moved me to tears. She looked stunning and has a voice to match . All in All ... A WEEK TO REMEMBER !
Poll
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Hi again........
I am sure that we WILL get Roberts stone re-arranged at some point......
Annie is just like my mum !! Very determined.........
Why don't we have our own Rootschat meet, when this happens ?
Our own little band of brothers...just there for Robert. 10.30 service...and lunch afterwards....sometime next year ?
I think that now Graham is "with us" things may begin to happen.
I for one, would be happy to make a small donation to righting the stone.....
I will start charging for research I do for mates !!
Regards
JeannieR
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What a good idea Jeannie
Must get some work done the duster is by my side
Elizabeth
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Hello Jeanny and All,
of course I would also be happy to make a "small" donation and even a "little more" for righting Robert's stone... and maybe to be among you the Rootschat meeting day... maybe... :)
Michel
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Add me to the list for a small donation to the Robert Restoration Fund.
Nanny Jan
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Whilst in the churchyard today I was able to lift the headstone a few inches to read the inscription on the headstone.
It reads as follows:
In
Loving Memory
Robert William
Beloved Husband of
Elizabeth Neil Stead
Who died on 7th October 1926
Aged 30 Years
The stone face is in excellent condition and does not appear damaged by the fall. I was anxious to have a peek at the headstone to make sure the church records were correct and I was not going to incur the wrath of you all for raising false hopes.
lovely to meet with Mary also on Sunday.
Graham
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Isn't this just great
Well done Graham
Elizabeth
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Good evening Graham,
Thank you very much for making this final verification ( I was personally convinced that there was no doubt about the issue ...) :)
very friendly
Michel
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Graham,
Many thanks for that - I think a lot of us will be feeling a sense of closure on reading the inscription, simple as it is.
I hope you were careful not to have strained your back.
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We really appreciate you looking Graham ....... I think the concensus is ... big sighs of relief :)
This soldier who has consumed the life of Michel all these years and who began to play a big part in our lives too ... is now in safe hands ...... Bless you Graham .... !!
now no more lifting of the stone !! ;D
Annie :)
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Wow Graham, now don't go getting a hernia - that stone's very heavy!
I can confirm to all that Graham wanted to be 100% sure, he had the plan of the graveyard and we had checked the names on the stones on either side of Roberts so that both of us agreed that it was the right one, although I can understand there would be just that niggling tiny doubt until he had seen it for himself.
Sorry no pic of the Burial Register yet, camera link is attached to son's computer and although downloaded it needs to be resized to upload here, I will do it as soon as I get a little time. As yet I can't even confirm that it's any clearer than the one you already have.
Mary
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The Burial Register and the altar at St Peter's, Woolton
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Hi Mary !
What a beautiful church, it looks so tranquil, you deserved a few moments there after tearing around the country for us all ;D
I'm glad you were able to represent us.
Thank you !
Wendi :)
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Yes ....A big thank you to you Mary ... It looks a very warm and welcoming Church too .....
Poll :)
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Hello Mary,
Thank you very much for this nice testimony
Michel :)
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