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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: sorcha65 on Wednesday 10 October 07 14:30 BST (UK)
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I am at my wits end here and wonder if anyone can help. I started all this family tree lark to try and find out why my Granny's family were all so dark skinned. She and her siblings all had black hair, black eyes and very dark skin. So much so that in the summer they were often taken as mixed race especially after the immigration from the West Indies. However I remember someone in the family telling me they were of Romany origin. After 4yr searching I have found no evidence to support this, I have though narrowed it down to the part of the family it came from. Her grandparents were called Pett and Spall, the Spalls came from a rural area of Suffolk called Bruisyard and the Petts came from Spalding in Lincs. I wondered if anyone knew of any Romany communities who travelled regularly there. Its a long shot I know but as the Pett family have been difficult to trace I m clutching at straws. Any info gratefully received. Thanks Sorcha
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Dear Sorcha65,
I don't know anything about Romanies myself, but we were in Spalding at the weekend and went by a sign advertising Gordon Boswell's Romany Museum. If you google in Spalding Romany Museum it comes up.
Escargot
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Yes I ve been there and done that lol! They told me there was no significance to the location, it was just available! Thanks for the reply anyway. Sorcha
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Did you see Who Do You Think You are on BBC the other night ?
SOme McGowan ?? he is a comedian turns out to be half Indian ?? you never know.
Its a myth that all Gypsies are dark skinned they are not Iv got pictures a hundred years old and some of mine look white as sheets.
I havnt heard of either of those names amongst travelling families but maybe An65 would know, she is an EXPERT on Lincolnshire Gypsies.
Regards
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My gran, my dad and his siblings and even some of my cousins have/had black hair, very dark brown eyes and olive coloured skin. Their background is supposed to be either Spanish or Portuguese, although I've not found that ancestor yet.
Liz
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RedRed - thank you so much, but I dont really think Im an expert - we are just researching the same lines and lines that interest me so I pick up information on them frequently. I do think I might have a bit of a "knack" for rooting them out as the Rom hide so well under aliases and whatnot, but I also dont think Im alone in that.
Id recommend a hunt through Sues Romany Genes site (the link is listed in the Links page at the top of this traveller forum.) She might have picked up something on this surname.
Unfortunatly, to date I havent come across this name but that doesnt mean much - it only means that they didnt marry into the families Ive been busy researching. The Rom could travel several counties over the course of a year, some settled, some restricted themselves to one or two counties, and others went absolutely everywhere, so it doesnt necessarily follow that they were Lincs based.
A little more info on exactly who Im looking for (and when) might prove to be very useful - id be happy to see if I can find anything on them. If you dont want to put it on the forum, I dont mind if you PM me at all :)
Ann
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I ll tell you as much as I know. I have by a process of elimination narrowed it down to my GGrans side of the family, she was Adelaide Pett born nr Sheffield 1880. Her mother was a Green from Totley Derbyshire and I ve done some fairly extensive research into that side and I find it unlikely it came from there so I m left with her Dad - Richard Pett. His parents were Hannah Spall born Bruisyard Suffolk c.1809 - don t know the area, I think its rural have been in contact with someone from Suffolk who mooted there might have been an Irish community at one stage. The father John Pett was according to census born Spalding Lincs 1799/1800 his job was a groom in 1841 and by 1851 he was a cab proprietor. These two were married in Doncaster 1832, one of the witnesses was a Richard Pett (I assume a brother) who inconveniently died of Cholera in 1836. Why they went to Doncaster from their respective homes is anyone's guess- service probably. They moved to Sheffield and lived there til they died in 1871 within 3 days of each other!
I have tried with a Lincolnshire Archivist - nothing. Found one John Pett - not mine, this one died in Cambridgeshire. Theres no birth for him on IGI. All I know is we are all dark skinned in the family and are usually taken as Italian/Spanish. I would just like to know why. All I can remember is my Nan telling me we were Gypsies and her mother was Pschic and used to read the tea leaves! Sorry for the length of this. Sorcha
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Well, I seen John Pett on the 1841/51/61 CR in Sheffield, and on the first hes a groom, and on the second a gentlemans servant, and on the third a Cab Proprieter. They are living in a house, their neighbours arent giving any clues by their occupations or surnames, and there are a few other Petts living in the Spalding/Pinchbeck area, with non-romany occupations. Id have to say that it seems unlikely that this family are Romanies. I took a look at Spalls in Bruisyard Sfk, none in the CR, BUT - theres a whole generation of them on the IGI. This suggests a possibility - if the Spall family had all their kids baptised there, but none of them could accurately recall their place of birth for the census. To be honest with you, the mention of the name Green flags up more Romany likelihood than the others. Green is a known name.
I know thats not a lot of help, but Im afraid I cant see that I can find out much more for you. Sorry - perhaps someone else can.......
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Thanks for trying for me anyway An - aahh well the search goes on! Sorcha
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The search may well not yet be over. You may yet find a link in the next generation back or something. It wasnt unheard of for the Rom to settle if they married into a gorja family even way back then. Good luck hunting!!
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Thanks An, just out of interest, I have found a link to a Brown family. Is that a Romany name? Sorcha
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Yep. Im related to one of the Browns. Hard family to trace tho - tell me more :)
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Just out of interest here are a few Rom names linked to Lincolnshire:
Heron/Herron/Hearn/Hearne/Herring etc
Boswell/Boss
Young (Herons and Bosses under a different surname)
Winter/Winters often alias Smith or Pierce/Pearse
Gray
Elliott
Brown
Smith
Wilson
Rhodes
Shaw
Loveridge
theres more but that will do for now.
The Herons and Boswells, and Bosses all intermarried, also marrying with the Smiths and Grays, a few marrying into the Winters/Pierces/Wilsons/Browns and so on and so forth.
Winters reputedly cam from North East, The Shaws and Loveridges and Herons from the midlands - Northants and East Anglia, the Rhodes came from Hull (far as I know) the Bosses loved Yorkshire. The Grays one branch settled in Cams and East Anglia, the other in Lincs, The Elliotts from Notts, and the Smiths were everywhere.
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The Brown I m on about would be from the Spall side, therefore from Suffolk - I know this is a long shot cos Brown's a well common name. Sorcha
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Remember Rom are from everwhere - Suffolk could well be a place for a Brown to turn up.
I know of only a few Browns. There was Thomas Brown married Lydia Cooper (or Smith) travelled around the East Anglian area for sure, and his brother Bui (spelt in so many ways you wouldnt believe) married Lydia Smith and they travelled Lincs and East Anglia (but had no children from what I could see). They were sons of Rachel Heron and Jack Heron/Baker/Brown (and possibly other aliases).
There was a Francis Brown who travelled round Lincs/Yorks and all that area with Unity his wife,
and there was my great great great Gran Mary Brown married Thomas Smith and had my great great Gran Deliah who married Samuel Gray.
It certainly isnt an impossibility that a Brown in Suffolk could be one of that lot. They are very hard to trace tho!.
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Yes they would be lol! I ve had no luck with this side of the family at all! Funny thing is on my Mums side I have a lot of the Romany names you mentioned! Have you ever heard of the name Hoyle in connection with Romanies - it would be in the Yorkshire area. Sorcha
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Nope, but that doesnt mean that a Hoyle didnt marry a Rom somewhere at some time. It only means Ive not come across it personally.
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Hi there, I have been looking for some of my family whom I believe were Travellers in and around the Lincolnshire/Norfolk area. I have been unable to trace whether this is true and would love to know a bit more about them and where they came from.
The marriage certificate of my Great grandparents (Priscilla Smith & Thomas Addison) has the named fathers James Addison and Amos Smith but I have been unable to trace either of these.
If anyone else has been researching and come across these then I would love to hear from you.
Many thanks
Luce
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I am searching for English records about Sapy LOVELL (esp. birth date, exact birthplace and parents). In her Australian convict records, she is described as ‘a gipsey’ with a complexion of 'dark mullato', born in Lincoln c. 1802. I have been unable to find any English birth record for her.
The only other English references to her are in the Bury and Norwich Post newspaper:
Committed to our Gaol...Sophy Lovell (by Rev. John Isaacson) charged with stealing a silver tea spoon, the property of Ann Pate, of Freckenham. (BNP 3 May 1826)
Seven Years’ Transportation. - Sapy Lovell, (a gipsy girl, aged 18) for stealing a silver tea-spoon, the property of Ann Westrup, of Freckenham. (BNP 21 July 1826)
Yesterday (Tuesday) Sapy Lovell, a gypsey girl, aged 19, convicted at the Summer Assizes, 1826, of grand larceny, was removed from our Gaol to the ship Louisa, lying in the River Thames, bound for New South Wales. (BNP 8 August 1827)
She may also be known as Sophy / Sophie / Sophia.
Any thoughts or links?
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Hi,
I have only found this so far.
LOVELL Sophia (@Sapy) born c.1802, no religion, no education unmarried,
born Lincolnshire, occupation Pedlar, , offence, Stealing Plate, convicted
at Bury St Edmonds UK, tried 13.7.1827. Sentenced to 7yrs . Was at The
Female Factory at Parramatta N.S.W.. Arrived N.S.W per the vessel
"Louisa"3.12.1827. Height 5'1"Dark ruddy complexion, black hair and black
eyes.Scar left corner of nose. . She married 1838 (Presb Whittingham)
Which you will most probably have already.
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Thanks - yes the Australian convict records all state that she stole a silver plate, but the English newspaper states that it was a silver spoon.
Sapy married Richard Miles, another ex-convict, who came to the Female Factory to choose a wife from a lineup (Colonial speed dating ;)) It didn't last... ! ::)
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Has anyone come across the name Clayton as a gypsy family. They married, on more than one occasion into the Smiths.
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Hi,
Here are a few links for you about the Claytons
http://rtfhs.org.uk/publications/gypsy-families/
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=600915.0
http://romanygenes.com/#/1891-census/4529614394
http://www.gypsyjib.com/page/Clayton+Family
http://www.gypsygenealogy.com/showarticle.php?article_id=113
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Hi again here are a couple more links for you,
http://theromany.weebly.com/clayton.html
http://watfordvillage.weebly.com/gypsies.html
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/A+black+day+for+the+Black+Patch%3B+A+patch+of+unclaimed+land+in...-a0102901203
http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=106&p=localities.britisles.england.dby.matlock