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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Antrim => Ireland => Antrim Completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: stevenson on Monday 08 October 07 19:47 BST (UK)

Title: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: stevenson on Monday 08 October 07 19:47 BST (UK)

Looking for this road....

1 ..is it a road

2...if so where

3..did it have houses on it

4..is it still there now

Steve

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 08 October 07 20:37 BST (UK)

There's a Tappatourzee/Tappuetousie (local pronunciation Tap a toosy) in Knockaduff townland, Co. Londonderry. It is a mound (from which 13 parishes can be seen) thought to have been a burial mound and/or fort.
The name according to Jameson's Scottish Dictionary means 'dishevelled head.'

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: BallyaltikilliganG on Tuesday 09 October 07 09:28 BST (UK)

I am sure Aghadowey is pointing to the meaning, I had a wee look Does boggy rhyme with topsy turvy www.belfasthills.org/popup_content.php?PageId=434
“Carnmoney takes its name from Cairn Monadh ‘the cairn on the boggy mountain’, a burial chamber that originally stood on the summit of Carnmoney Hill.”
Extraordinary is www.newtownabbey.gov.uk/leisure/downloads/CarnmoneyHilll.pdf which has an introductory page, topsy turvy , yes upside down text and pictures. I have never seen this on any website before.
I couldnt find more, It’s a most interesting challenge. However Steve, where did you get your reference please, Jim

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: scotmum on Tuesday 09 October 07 10:04 BST (UK)

Quote from: BallyaltikilliganG on Tuesday 09 October 07 09:28 BST (UK)

Extraordinary is www.newtownabbey.gov.uk/leisure/downloads/CarnmoneyHilll.pdf which has an introductory page, topsy turvy , yes upside down text and pictures. I have never seen this on any website before.

First page, anyhow, done like this as designed to be printed off and folded into a leaflet, as per guide marks at each side.

From aghadoweys find, I wouldn't be surprised if there was something similarly named by the locals in Carnmoney - hopefully someone will come up trumps for you on this one Steve.

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: stevenson on Tuesday 09 October 07 17:29 BST (UK)

Thank you all

My Da...has been talking about this "toppy twosy"road in Carnmoney.....but was not sure if he was imagining it or not.

good meanings by Aghadoweny...love the "dishevelled head" bit,  ;D ......do think it is probably a local name for a road.

Maybe some local might know where this road is/ or was.

Apparently it was very good to go down it, in the blitz, to get to the fields for the night...blankets and all.(then watch the bombs go off)

Steve

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: BallyaltikilliganG on Wednesday 10 October 07 10:01 BST (UK)

Could  a "toppy twosy"road in Carnmoney have a topsy-turvy road connection to where Mary Butters, The Carnmoney Witch might have lived.  The ballad about her is published online at  www.intute.ac.uk/artsandhumanities/, in the book "Irish witchcraft and demonology by St John D. Seymour" as part of the Sacred Texts collection. Published 1913.Chapter IX  A.D. 1807  To Present Day Mary Butters, The Carnmoney Witch--Ballad On Her--The Hand Of Glory--A Journey Through The Air--A "Witch" In 1911 etc.. “A clever racy ballad was made upon it by a resident in the district, which, as it is probably the only poem on the subject of witchcraft in Ireland, we print here in its entirety from the Ulster Journal of Archæology for 1908, though we have not had the courage to attempt a glossary to the "braid Scots."”
Regretfully I couldnt find “ topsy turvy” in the ballad

Searching for ‘topsy turvy and witchcraft’ on google reveals many associations, and I was led to another on line book. The Gaelic-English Dictionary By Colin B. D. Mark has interesting definitions for topsy turvy, the gaelic word starting with bun…but in a rush, I didnt find any nearby streets or townlands within Carnmoney recording that connection.

Finally Steve, your father might be interested in the Belfast Blitz story as recorded on www.glenravel.com.  At the other end of Belfast my father walking [awkwardly on his artificial leg from WW1] was taking me in moonlight to the nearby Malone Road to hear and then occasionally see walking fast, sometimes speaking, sometimes greeting each other,  sometimes not, but the irregularly walking noise rising above all, of the thousands fleeing the area. It was unforgettable and a war lesson of what humans did to other humans.

Have you seen an OS 6inch map of carnmoney area yet.
Good luck on your many quests, Jim

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: stevenson on Wednesday 10 October 07 16:55 BST (UK)

Bally

What a fabulous find   www.intute.ac.uk/artsandhumanities/

Blitz was really bad ,
my Da told me about his sisters being late home from a dance in Belfast,
the sirens went off, but because they were late they didn't go down the nearest shelter they hurried home
.....that shelter got a direct hit that night.
....and they carried bodies out the following morning
....they were both lucky.... so many others were not.

on ward ever on wards to find the "Topsy Twosy"

Steve

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: saz1401 on Thursday 11 October 07 22:06 BST (UK)

I vaguely remember Topsy Toosey being the road (more a narrow lane) that we walked thro from Ballyhenry to Carnmoney graveyard. Only a few little cottages / farm buildings on the way thro. I think it came out at "Red sheds" on Ballyhenry Rd. All would be long gone now with the housing estate and new road.

saz ::)

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: stevenson on Saturday 13 October 07 16:51 BST (UK)

I managed to get Da to remember the road today.

He said it was by Carmoney Church opposite Abernathys's shop (have no idea if this is spelled right or where it was) and it was just a lane that went all the way up past the church and down lower Abernathy's lane all the way down to the grave yard by the other church.

so Saz your memory isn't bad for your age  ;D  ;D
 Da is going to draw me a map (if he remembers)

What I need to know now is ........
who lived on that lane...apparently the top end of it lived an old Aunt of my Da's also some Biggers that were related.


Anyone help please

Steve

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: Christopher on Friday 19 October 07 20:52 BST (UK)

Hiya Steve,

I've sent a message to a friend who lives somewhere in North Belfast. He may know someone from Carnmoney. I'm not certain where he lives as I meet him at various gigs.

not sure about that one or indeed if i even know anyone old enoughto remember from that area... the Hill Tavern on Carnmoney Hill is probably a good place to ask?...

The Glengormley Library might also be worth contacting.  Click here  (http://www.ni-libraries.net/libraries/neelb/glengormley-library) for contact details.

Christopher

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: saz1401 on Saturday 20 October 07 00:03 BST (UK)

Uncle Chris - Wot are you saying??!! I must be OLD then cos I vaguely remember the lane!!!!

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: Christopher on Saturday 20 October 07 00:11 BST (UK)

Saz,

Don't worry. You're not old 8)

I haven't a clue about the age of the guy I contacted ... he must be at least in his forties but may
not be from the Carnmoney area. He possibly knows of the Tavern through his musical connections.

Uncle Chris

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: stevenson on Saturday 20 October 07 16:25 BST (UK)

Thanks Chris

I shall telephone on Monday and ask

Steve

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: TheWhuttle on Monday 22 October 07 01:27 BST (UK)

Capt. Steve,

Carnmoney ... taverns ... BIGGER men ...
[Click,click, click: The Whuttle awakes!]

--------

Sounds like you need a 1940s Street Directory ...

--------

"Toppy toosy" certainly sounds like a local colloquialism.

Perhaps a manifestation of that well-known Ulster custom,
endemic in the area:

    "Having a little tease with The English!"
      (as she is spoken ...)

Possible original candidates might have been:
    1) Top (of the) Toun;
    2) Two Tops (or Taps).

There is also a "letter agent" named TOPLEY in one of the Belfast directories.
Maybe it was his "Shank's pony" short cut over the hill?
The track that TOPLEY's tootsies trod!

--------

Much amused by "Topsy Turvy" thoughts.
[Think Commander G deserves a prize for his clever discovery!]

I recalled the film "Topsy Turvy".
About an era in Gilbert & Sullivan's collaboration.

[However, I only got as far as finding a Mount GILBERT to the West of Belfast (named for an early Vicar?) ... "Tripping gaily over mountain" ... but could only match it with a school in Hollywood for SULLIVAN. ]

--------

The townland of Hightown (Glengormley), part of Carnmoney parish, used to be known as Biggerstown.
[Presumably 'cos the BIGGERs bigged lots of wee hooses there ... ?]

The family apparently came over from Nithsdale in Scotland in 1648.

James BIGGER was a United Irishman who fought at Antrim in 1798.
This effort erupted out of "The Trench" at Mallusk.

His brother David BIGGER lived there.
He was one of the founders of RBAI, and grandfather of the famous Francis Joseph BIGGER who, in a colourful life, found time to support strange concepts like Tee-Total pubs ...

Ref 1: "Carved in Stone".

Ref 2:  "Mallusk Memorials"  0-9524698-1-2, July 1997  £5 (then)
Produced by a power of physical work and genealogical research by some stalwarts from the Belfast Branch of the NI FHS.

The latter contains a small section of the BIGGER family tree.

--------

I can put you in touch with a man who claims to know "everything" about Carnmoney (even more then W.F.McKINNEY!), but I think that he charges for his time these days ...

Capt. Jock

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: aghadowey on Monday 22 October 07 08:23 BST (UK)

Quote from: TheWhuttle on Monday 22 October 07 01:27 BST (UK)

"Toppy toosy" certainly sounds like a local colloquialism.
Perhaps a manifestation of that well-known Ulster custom,
endemic in the area:
    "Having a little tease with The English!"
      (as she is spoken ...)
Possible original candidates might have been:
    1) Top (of the) Toun;
    2) Two Tops (or Taps).
There is also a "letter agent" named TOPLEY in one of the Belfast directories.
Maybe it was his "Shank's pony" short cut over the hill?
The track that TOPLEY's tootsies trod!

Still think the origin of the name is here:

Quote from: aghadowey on Monday 08 October 07 20:37 BST (UK)

There's a Tappatourzee/Tappuetousie (local pronunciation Tap a toosy) in Knockaduff townland, Co. Londonderry. 
The name according to Jameson's Scottish Dictionary means 'dishevelled head.'

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: stevenson on Monday 22 October 07 16:39 BST (UK)

Thank you both

Capt
Never knew Hightown was Glengormley
......and our Bigger's I shall leave for the moment ;D
bet your man cost a lot of ulster fries... ???

Aghadoweny
I love your "dishevelled head"meaning......probably an old Scots term they brought over with them ,that they used to explained a old rough road/track/person etc

Steve

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: melv on Tuesday 23 October 07 22:52 BST (UK)

There was a Abernathy's shop in carnmoney village, across the road from carnmoney presbyterian lecture hall, the shop is now a car showroom. melv.

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: TheWhuttle on Wednesday 24 October 07 01:21 BST (UK)

Melv,

Probably this change of shop function can be attributed directly to the Church's recent world-engaging evangelical drive, with its emphasis on moving ...

   ... from just a pathetic local shedding of words;
            [and partaking of the biscuits covertly.]

   ... to a Just peripatetic vocal spreading of The Word;
            [and taking the biscuit convert-ly!]

Revving Jock

Title: Re: toppy toosy....Carnmoney...is this a road
Post by: stevenson on Monday 26 November 07 18:04 GMT (UK)

I have managed to get a 1850's map showing the "toppsie twosie" road/ lane that went from Ballyduff to the graveyard...so is an old walk way, no houses on it then though.

Steve