RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: katefarr on Monday 08 October 07 06:08 BST (UK)
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Hi to all
This message is especially to those wonderful people who helped me look up the marriage of William A Davis and Miriam A James, I thought I would update you. I ordered the marriage cert. hoping it would shed some light on the surname of Tilby (which was on their son Stanley Alfred Davis's marriage and death cert.). Well, the marriage cert arrived today and to surprise there was no Tilby name on the cert. at all. :-\
The previous thread I am speaking of is : http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,257790.0.html
The information I received is as follows:
Married on 10 Oct 1910
WIlliam Albert Davis (widower)
born Gulgong NSW
aged 35yrs
father John Davis (Deceased)
mother Sarah Matilda Davis (SIC)
Married Miriam Annie James (spinster)
born Dubbo NSW
aged 21years
father unknown
mother Annie James
I cannot find either of their birth reg. but it still sheds no light on where the Tilby name came from. I just wanted to thank you all again for your help and update you as to what happened.
Kind regards
Kate
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Hello there Kate
NOW that is a shame but it there may be some explanations in it. Perhaps her fathers name that appears as unknown was Tilby but they (her parents) never did marry, he may have been allready married. Perhaps it was a made up name so they children would not know she was illegitimate and that the eldest child was born before the parents marriage, folk did like to hide a lot of things back in the day ;D and I wonder why the birth was before the marriage given that Sophia had died in 1906?
There are no births to match William Albert Davis!
Did the certificate include the details of his first wife IE place and date of marriage her death etc? Edited by Jenn I see that marriage online. I wonder if there may be different parents and place of birth involved for William Albert?
regards Jenn
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Hi Kate,
Do you think this is William A Davis marriages there in Dubbo they are as Follows:
8027/1899 DAVIS WILLIAM A ALLEN SOPHIA DUBBO
Child:
5327/1900 DAVIS JOSEPH WILLIAM SOPHIA DUBBO
Second Marriage:
11968/1910 DAVIS WILLIAM A JAMES MIRIAM A DUBBO
This is his First Wife death:
4878/1906 DAVIS SOPHIA WILLIAM MARY DUBBO
Dose this fit with what your saying.
The only one I can find there that is close to your William
Davis is this one that has a Father as John and Mother as Sarah there
12248/1864 DAVIS WILLIAM H JOHN SARAH ORANGE
Regards,
Ozybob
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Hello Kate,
It is a good idea to keep all information on one thread (the original thread) rather than starting a new thread - saves people from checking back and forth, and avoids duplication.
From the other thread we know that:
William A DAVIS married Sophia ALLEN in 1899 in Dubbo.
They had Joseph DAVIS in 1900 in Dubbo.
Sophia died in 1906 in Dubbo.
William A DAVIS then married Miriam A JAMES in 1910 in Dubbo.
However, we also know from the other thread that a child Alfred Stanley JAMES or DAVIS (no father named, mother Miriam) was born in 1908 in Redfern. Do you have this certificate?? Does it give the mother's name as Miriam JAMES??
One has to wonder whether Alfred was the illegitimate child of a Mr TILBY and Miriam JAMES, brought up subsequently as his own child by William A DAVIS. And perhaps the name TILBY was mentioned in the family and this is what has resulted in confusion on Alfred's marriage and death certificates. Do you have both these certs? Do they clearly give Miriam's maiden surname as TILBY? Is the name TILBY mentioned at all on birth, marriage or death certs of any of the subsequent children (see the other thread) of William DAVIS & Miriam JAMES?
TILBY is a very rare name in the NSW BDM. All I could find were three male TILBY marriages - 1879 (Orange), 1905 (Sydney) and 1956 (Sydney). The only one around the relevant time was a Stanley J TILBY marrying in Sydney in 1905. Hmmm.
But, of course, it may have been - as Jenn has suggested - that it was Miriam's father who was a Mr TILBY (Miriam, from the marriage cert, apparently having been illegitimate).
It is certainly strange that we can't find the birth of William Albert DAVIS, Gulgong, parents John & Sarah Matilda ca 1875 or the birth of Miriam A JAMES, Dubbo, mother Annie ca 1889.
JAP
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Hi All,
Alfred S James Born: R1908/393. Sydney. Mother: Miriam Place: Sydney
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Hi Ozybob,
Might save you some work if you check out the other thread ;)
annecaroline wrote there a while back:
"Alfred Stanley is on the birth index twice in 1908
Once under surname James
Alfred Stanley
No father
mother Miriam
Place Sydney
Reg No 393
The other under Davis
Alfred Stanley James
No father
mother Miriam
Place Sydney
Reg No 393"
Cheers :)
JAP
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However, we also know from the other thread that a child Alfred Stanley JAMES or DAVIS (no father named, mother Miriam) was born in 1908 in Redfern. Do you have this certificate?? Does it give the mother's name as Miriam JAMES??
can one access a copy of this birth certificate, it would appear to to easy to do according to the BDM site after 1906 a birth certificate would be in the restricted catergory it seems you have to be that person or have a very good reason etc
quote from the on line details
Because the Registry collects sensitive and private data about you and your family, and with the rise in Identity Fraud within Australia, the Registry has stringent entitlement and identification policies in place. For these reasons, certificates are categorised as 'restricted' or 'unrestricted'.
Restricted records are normally only available to the person named on the certificate and identification is always required
kind regards Jenn
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Hi all
Sorry for not repling earlier but we had severe weather last night, therefore safer to stay offline. Also a sorry for starting the new thread, I didn't realise it would cause a problem and I thought by including the other thread in the message it would save people duplicating things.
Anyway I could possibly ask Nan if she could try to order the birth cert. for her father?? She has looked for it, but cannot seem to find it. It's worth a shot, the Tilby name is indeed rare but whether the name was made up to give Miriam some legitimacy or in fact was the name of someone who was the father...... who knows. The birth register seems to confirm William Davis as the father considering the birth register finds Alfred Stanley under the surnames of James and Davis...... but how curious that a Stanley Tilby was married in Sydney (were Alfred was born) around the same time. Perhaps as suggested Stanley Tilby was the father and to protect the child William took him as his own.
Anyway this may be the end of the line for this poor saga as there seems to be dead ends everywhere. I will order all the cert.s relating to this as I can and see what else I can come up with. Will let you know.
Kind Regards Kate
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Hello, I am researching the Davis family on behalf of my cousins. Their grandfather was William Albert Davis (1875-1976) who married (1) Sophia Allen & (2) Miriam Annie James. Their youngest son, Ronald William Davis was my cousins' Dad. I have been able to trace Miriam forward to when she died as Miriam Annie Burns, died Bathurst 1963. Like you, I have been intrigued by the Tilby name on Alfred Davis' marriage certificate to Mary Wolfenden. The only Tilby I can locate in Dubbo around the time of Alf's birth is a Stanley Tilby. Given that Albert was born in 1908 and Miriam married William in 1910 suggests that Albert was, as stated on his original birth certificate, illegitimate. Then William Davis came along, married Miriam & reared Alfred as his own. Alfred's birth certificate states "evidence has been furnished that the full name of the within mentioned Alfred Stanley James is Alfred Stanley James Davis". Given that Alfred's second christian name is Stanley gives indication that Stanley (coupled with the Tilby name on Alf's marriage certificate) Tilby was Alf's birth father. On that certificate Miriam states she is from Richmond, Victoria and that her address is 4 Park Road (no town mentioned). It could be that Miriam wanted to create a smoke screen around herself and her baby so gave false information. The trail of these people goes cold at Dubbo with no further info about them. On one doco William Davis' parentage is listed as William & Sarah & on another John & Sarah - maybe he was William John or vice versa - thus creating another mystery. I am happy to share what info I have - maybe together we can solve these mysteries. Look forward to hearing from you. Regards, Kerry Payne (Mrs.) My private email is (*)
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Hi please remove your email address it is much safer to make one more post and you can use the Personal message system, also please remove any names of living people as per Rootschat Policy.
Neil
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Quite confusing, James births in Dubbo:
Mary J. daughter of Annie (no father registered) - 1895
then daughter(s) in 1910 and 1912 are also registered under both Davis (with parents William and Miriam) and James (with just Miriam).
Is it possible those are late registrations? I can't think of any reason why a child registered in 1912 to parents married 1910 would be listed twice, once as if illegitimate, unless these were kids born before the marriage and William was adopting them/having them registered or re-registered as his kids.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTZQ-LDC
- Stanley's 1905 marriage.
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Wow this is fantastic after all these years (and about 3 years of being unable to login for some unknown reason!) :D
I have sent you a PM Kerrykat
Jorose, thank you so much, I never realised the births of their daughters were registered under her maiden name as well as her married. How strange, the couple was married in Oct 1910, so the first daughter was Florence M born in 1910 (this would also have been out of wedlock) but why is she reregistered in 1912? I had always assumed that the second Florence M was a twin to Daisy but as Florence is registered with the exact initial and that Florence M died 1912 (I assume the 'twin' if that was the case at all) why were the 'twins' birth under the name of James as well as Davis? I am totally confused by this couple ??? Miriam was a strange lass, she left Alfred with all the kids after 1920 taking off with Claude Horice Burns with whom she had 3 children but never married. However she is buried under the name of Burns though her death certificate says Davis.
As Miriam was born 1889 the birth in 1895 of Mary J could not possibly be ours. I have come to think that Tilby was a smoke screen myself as Miriam came from Dubbo, the same place as William. Perhaps she went to Sydney and he followed, it still took a further two years for him to marry her though????
Ahhh the mysteries, love it :)
Thanks again for the renewed interest
Kind Regards Kate
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THERE has to be a reason !! People don't do things with some cause to effect. In my family my grandparents never actually married. Their early children were registered under her former married name and the later (after the death of former husband) were named in my grandfathers name. But they were all HIS as the former husband was on the other side of the country. Took a bit of working out :o
SO; why did this happen?? 1. She may have still been married, 2 Her former husband may have disappeard, 3 She wouldn't get divorced or couldn't because of stigma.
The has to be a reason.
Neil
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FROM KerryKat;
Like you, I have been intrigued by the Tilby name on Alfred Davis' marriage certificate to Mary Wolfenden. The only Tilby I can locate in Dubbo around the time of Alf's birth is a Stanley Tilby. Given that Albert was born in 1908 and Miriam married William in 1910 suggests that Albert was, as stated on his original birth certificate, illegitimate. Then William Davis came along, married Miriam & reared Alfred as his own. Alfred's birth certificate states "evidence has been furnished that the full name of the within mentioned Alfred Stanley James is Alfred Stanley James Davis". Given that Alfred's second christian name is Stanley gives indication that Stanley (coupled with the Tilby name on Alf's marriage certificate) Tilby was Alf's birth father.
I think this makes good sense ;D
I also read into this a estrangement from her family, do you have her birth certificate? Women who fell pregnat then quite often were sent away until after baby is born and then sometimes parents rear as own, sometimes they had it adopted out, sometimes the woman put up with all sorts of hardships to rear it alone and sometimes they met some nice man who took both in and reared the child together ::)
Neil
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It does make sense in the names - that Tilby was the father, but one piece of information that was interesting was the youngest child of Williams first marriage - Leslie - was my pops spitting image, suggesting the same father? There is also a hint that they may have been of Aboriginal descent but I am not sure where that comes into play?? I found this out today talking with family. I was wondering if this may be part of the reason for information being hard to come by??
Apparently Miriam couldn't remarry as William would not give her a divorce. She stayed with Claude Burns until he died.
Regards
Kate
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Just trying to make Google my friend again and typed in Tilby Family NSW.
Funny first thing that comes up is Department of Community Service ADOPTION AND FOSTERING?
Now what could I read into that, I wonder ::)
Neil
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.... so if we assume that Stanley Tilby was the father of Alfred Stanley Davis I looked up for further information on the man
He was born 1881 and died 1969 in South Australia, there are no births registered to him and his wife in NSW. Although this doesn't mean he couldn't be the father of course. How did a girl from Dubbo come to meet a man from SA that married in Sydney 1905? I can find no further trace of his name in the nsw indexes bmd or state archives suggesting his stay in nsw was not long. Was he passing through Dubbo and she followed him to Sydney? Mmmm
Then again I am assuming that the information of her birthplace of Dubbo is correct, why should I when she clearly lied about it on a previous document and stated she was born in Victoria! Perhaps she was in Sydney all along, but then how and why did William Davis a new widower go to sydney with young children and meet her? I am thinking I need to regroup my thoughts as I feel quiet lost and can't see the proverbial forest for the trees at the moment ;)