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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Kent => England => Kent Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Royalgaz on Monday 01 October 07 12:38 BST (UK)
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Hello
I am looking for the possible marriage records for Stephen Goodban & Mary Ann Wolf they would have got married sometime between 1820-1826, somewhere in Deal but no idea exactly where.
I would also be interested if easy to locate the christening records for Amelia Goodban their daughter born 1826, it seem she may have been born in Great Mongeham, near Deal according to the census records i have now traced for her, they had other children which IGI has details of, but not this one child. Although i do wonder if there were any more children born after her, as the next record of a child was in 1835.
Mary Ann seemed to live in deal all her life at same address till her death in 1899, wondering if LOWER STREET still exists? Bill said he may be able to supply a picture of it if it still exists?
Thank you Gary
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Hi Gary
There is now a baptism for an Amelia Jane GOODBAN dau of Stephen & Mary Ann on the IGI - Gt Mongeham 1828 (also Caroline Elizabeth 1832) http://www.familysearch.org
Casalguidi :)
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Thank you Casalguidi that is great! That is one more little mystery down now. Just need to work on finding Stephen & Mary's marriage record, which I have a feeling may have been in Great Mongeham.
Thank you Gary
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Hi Gary
Lower Street was the old name for High Street (confusing?). Do you have a number or any nearby landmarks from the census that would help pinpoint the actual building?
I will keep an eye open for the marriage.
Bill
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Hi Bill
The number she lived at was 101. That makes sense now because on the 1891 census it changed from Lower Street to High Street and I thought that was strange and thought maybe she had moved. Thank you for clearing that one up.
Thanks for your help Gary
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some nice photos of Great Mongeham on http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk.
Also some photos of High Street Deal but not one of 101.
Sue
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Oohh thanks Sue will have a look at the site now. LOL what a shame they don't have 101 showing.
Thanks Gary
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According to the cemetery records, Mary Ann died in College Road aged 95 and was buried on 15 Apr 1899.
College Road is the part of Lower Street north of Alfred Square. I suspect this may have been the home of her son (?) Stephen Arthur, who died aged 60 in September 1894.
Bill
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Thank you for that information Bill. Someone sent me the death cert a week ago and apparently she was living at 46 College Road, and Stephen's wife who registered the death stated she was living at 84 College Road. So you were on the right lines.
Sadly the 1901 census for Deal does not exist, so I could not trace any more information, especially wondered what happened to her daughter Frances who lived with her all her life (or at least until 1891 which is last census I can view).
Thank you for all the information, gaining a much better idea of their movements now.
Gary
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Royalgaz
I had a quick squint at the Gt. Mongeham records while I was at the Canterbury archives today.... I couldn't find a Goodban/Wolf marriage between the dates you give.
If I get a mo over the next day or so I'll have a stroll and see if I can get a pic or two of the College Road houses for you. Much of College Road is 'intact'.
regards
Tony
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Thank you Tony that would be really lovely.
I wonder where they got married then, unless it was later then 1826, but thought it was normal for them to get married in area where their first born is. Although I guess if it was in her parish then it could have been Littlebourne or Deal or another surrounding area, this side of the family is never simple!
Thanks for your help Gary
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Hi Gary
According to the 1898 street directory, she was living at no. 50 College Road, on the corner of Cannon Street, which was, until recently, a fish and chip shop!
The numbering has changed several times since the 1800s - the houses used to be numbered sequentially up one side of the road and down the other. In 1841, the last census that shows Stephen living, they are in Lower Street about 12 houses from Cannon Street, apparently to the north. As the 1841 census does not give house numbers, it is not possible to be sure if this was No. 101.
In 1899, no. 48 would probably have been 2 doors down from No. 50 (south - nearer to the town centre). Again, it is not possible to be sure if any of these were the same as 101 Lower Street.
Now, the numbering is odd on that side and even on the opposite side, and the corner property is No. 49.
This is College Road today. I have some more pictures - if you let me have your e-mail address I will send them on to you.
Their first-born was baptised at Gt Mongeham, but their marriage did not take place there, or at Lt Mongeham. Nor was it at Deal St Leonard's, where 3 more children were baptised some years later (there may be others in between, somewhere else) when they were living in Lower Street.
There were no other CoE churches in Deal at that time except St George's (unfortunately the records for this church are missing for the period of interest). I also checked St Mary's in Walmer, but not Sholden.
There were a number of GOODBAN baptisms in Gt Mongeham in the late 1700s / early 1800s but no Stephen.
I have also checked for Stephen's burial between 1848 (baptism of youngest child) to 1851 (M.A. widow on census) but have not found him in Mongeham or Deal.
I will have another look for Frances Maria to see if she ever married.
The baptism of Amelia Jane was at Gt Mongeham St Martin on 27th January 1828, d/o Stephen & Mary Ann, of Gt Mongeham, labourer.
Bill
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Thank you for the photo Bill, have emailed you directly with my email address.
Thank you also for all your additional information, very helpful. Now I am becoming a bit puzzled. I have also been given the death certificate for Stephen Goodban and he died on the 3 December 1845 in Deal (no address stated), the informant was a Sarah Chapman present at the death of 104 or 109 Lower Street, Deal.
You said the last child who would be Frances Maria was baptised in 1848, was this just an oversite as I have down it was 22 May 1846 at St Leonards, Deal? I assume she was conceived before Stephen died but born after his death as she is born in 1846.
So according to the baptism record for Amelia, Stephen was from Great Mongeham?
Do this family ever stop becoming confusing for me??? Where on earth did they get married then I wonder.
Thank you so much for all your look ups and help. I would be extremely confused without your help.
Regards Gary
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Sorry, you're right - she was baptised in 1846, not 1848!
Stephen & Mary Ann were living in Great Mongeham when Amelia was baptised - they didn't have any other children baptised there and they weren't married there. Stephen wasn't baptised there, nor, it would seem, was Mary Ann.
Unfortunately the 1841 census doesn't tell us where they were born and the 1851 has her down as Deal.
To add to the confusion, there is an Edward GOODBAN in the 1851 census with wife Mary A, quite close in age, living in North Sandy Lane (Golf Road). He was born in Mongeham!
I have only found 4 children - Amelia Jane (1828), Benjamin Wolfe (1835), Stephen Arthur (1837) and Francis Maria (1846) - I haven't found Charles (c.1840) or Sarah (c.1843) and I would guess there must have been more as there are big gaps between these. Do you have any more information? It might give me more clues as to where to look next.
Bill
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According to the 1861 census, Mary A was born in Sittingbourne ....................
1861
Lower Street (East Side), Deal
Mary A GOODBAN head wid 56 laundress b.Sittingbourne
Stephen son 23 lab b.Deal
Sarah A dau 17 dressmaker b.Deal
Frances dau 14 laundress b.Deal
RG9/543 folio 135 page 30
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1871
101 Lower Street, Deal
Mary A GOODBAN head wid 66 laundress b.Deal
Sarah A dau 26 dressmaker b.Deal
Frances M dau 24 b.Deal
RG10/1004 folio 22 page 35
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and now London :o
1881
101 High Street, Deal
Mary A GOODBAN head wid 76 b.London
dau (no name given) unm 34 b.Deal
RG11/998 folio 38 page 38
........................
1891
101 High Street, Deal
Mary A GOODBAN head wid 86 laundress b.Westminster London
Frances M dau 41 b.Deal
Lilian E RIVERS grandau 17 dressmaker b.Walmer
RG12/738 folio 137 page 27
....................
Does that widen the area for her possible marriage I wonder :-\
Casalguidi :)
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Hi Bill
All I have for their children are:
Amelia Jane (Baptised in Great Mongeham)
Caroline Elizabeth (who Casalguidi found through IGI for me, but can not trace her in 1841 census, so possibly she died, who is meant to have been baptised in Great Mongeham according to the IGI)
Benjamin Wolfe (who died in 1841, Deal, baptised in Deal)
Stephen Arthur (Baptised in Deal)
Charles (who according to someone with some Deal parish extracts was baptised at St Leonards 21 Feb 1841)
Sarah Ann (just noticed don't have her baptism records)
Frances Maria (Baptised St Leonards, Deal)
I found the same information as Casalguidi has regarding the census that Mary Ann puts Deal, Sittingbourne and even Westminster as her places of birth. Just to confuse matters even more!
I traced someone with Sittingbourne parish records (probably extracts), who checked for a baptism of Mary Ann Wolfe and could not find one, they did not have the marriage records for the area. I did wonder if maybe it was Littlebourne? As for Westminster I have not got a clue where to go to try and check those records.
The only other information I can tell you is who the individuals seem to marry. Also Charles (my ggg grandfather changed his name sometime around 1861 to Charles Goodwin, stayed with that name most of his life, then in last few years of his life, reverted back to Goodban. I had another posting on here, that I have updated with this information (Looking for Goodwin's in Kent).
From all my notes I don't think I have any additional information. Except that one cousin believes (usual family stories) that Mary descends from Wolfe of Canada (can't remember the exact story, but he was some big man who saved Canada or something, have to check the internet). But as with all stories I have taken this with a ton of salt.
Gary
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I've been having a scout around and saw references to a Arthur Wolf REEVE(S) bc1837 Dover and, thinking that the names "Arthur" and "Wolf(e)" weren't too common in this area at that time, decided to look further.
1841
Chapel Street, Dover St Mary
Steven REEVE 30 staymaker b.Kent
Sarah 25 b.Kent
Arthur 3 b.Kent
Jane 2 b.Kent
Sarah 1 b.Kent
/
Emily GOODBURN 15 female servant b.Kent
HO107/494 folio 11 page 15
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There is a marriage Stephen REEVE to Sarah Ann WOLFE in Deal 1835 http://www.familysearch.org
Unfortunately, Sarah is deceased by 1851 so unable to ascertain her birthplace but there is a gourp of WOLFE (and variants) baptisms on the IGI at Sandwich St Mary (all with parents Arthur and Ann):
Jane 1807
Sarah Ann 1810
Sarah Ann 1813
George Buckness 1816
John Arthur 1819 (parents Arthur and Sarah)
George Philip 1823
George Buckness caught my eye as I recall the "BUCKMAN" name cropping up in your research and wonder if one or the other ie. BUCKNESS or BUCKMAN is a transcription error for the other?
Here are the parents, Arthur and Ann ............
1841
Sandwich St Mary
Arthur WOLFE 55 b.Kent
Ann 55 b.Kent
HO107/494 folio 14 page 21
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1851
Delf Street, Sandwich St Mary
Arthur WOLFE head mar 68 carpenter b.Selling
Ann wife 69 b.Boughton Kent
HO107/1631 folio 106 page 45
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In 1861 Arthur is in Eastry Union Workhouse, a carpenter, age 78 b.Selling, Kent
RG9/539 folio 115 page 11
..................................
It could be significant don't you think?
Casalguidi :)
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You are one step ahead of me Casalguidi, I was just thinking about that mystery of Buckman (or whatever it is) as the middle name on a certificate and was just going to post about that. My wondering was if she was married before and Wolfe was her married name.
Also just looking back at my notes noticed that I was missing the 1881 census, but you found it mistranscribed and she mentions London in that one too. Very strange ???.
I need to re-read what you have just posted as I am so mixed up now.
Thank you Gary
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I agree with you Casalguidi there could be something in those details. LOL is there anyway of tracing more information to be sure. Obviously she had to have parents and possibly siblings and I was hoping that maybe one day would find one of them that links up with Sarah.
Would I be able to post that marriage cert I have on here (showing the ambiguous middle name)?
Gary
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Hi Gary
I also spotted a Sarah WOLFE dau of Charles "Buchnel" & Sarah baptised Faversham 1785 ..................... Faversham not being far from Selling where Arthur was supposedly born :-\
It would be fine to post any portion of a certificate but not the whole thing.
Casalguidi :)
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Hello Casalguidi
OOOHHHH you have me very intrigued now, or is it LOL I am just trying to fit the details you have located into my family tree. :)
I am sure there is some relevance to this middle name that was given on the daughter's marriage certificate, Charles & his wife were also witnesses to this marriage. Sadly there seems to be no-one alive who knows of the reason for these names. Looking at it and comparing it to the other letters on the marriage cert I am sure the name is Buckenor, but have copied it to see what others think.
Thanks Gary
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Hi Gary
I would read that middle name as BUCKMAN - there are BUCKMANs in Deal today (and GOODBANs come to that - my wife used to work with one of them - I think she lived in College Road!).
1861 Lower Street (East Side), Deal
That throws a spanner in the works, Cas - the address where she was living in 1898 (photo below) was on the West side, on the corner of Cannon Street!
In 1841 they were apparently living further north on Lower Street, still on the West side, as they appear 12 houses on from Cannon Street.
Looking at the 1891 census, it would seem as though 101 was also on the west side (but not on the corner of Cannon Street) - the enumerator started from Rupert Cottages, heading south to Sandown Villa (East side), then Wellington Terrace, Jubilee Cotts, Clydesdale Cotts, then another 4 houses, before continuing from no. 99 High Street upwards. These terraces, each comprising 6 cottages (with the exception of Rupert Cottages), can still be identified, although they no longer have their names displayed. They were originally numbered individually (1-6 in each terrace); now they are numbered as part of College Road.
If he had continued on the East side, going south, he would have come to Alfred Square, but the next junction in the schedule is Cannon Street, indicating that he must have crossed over to the West side and gone north from the junction with Ark Lane. After Cannon Street he continued going north. This would have put no. 101 somewhere just north of Ark Lane.
This section of Lower Street, shown as High Street in 1891, is now College Road, after Deal College, a boys' school that was in Lower Street at the bottom of Alfred Square.
The rest of Lower Street, from Alfred Square south, is still High Street. It was originally called Lower Street because it is the lowest part of the town, being lower than Middle Street and Beach Street (it is actually below sea level - you have to go up-hill to the sea front).
Caroline Elizabeth (who Casalguidi found through IGI for me, but can not trace her in 1841 census, so possibly she died, who is meant to have been baptised in Great Mongeham according to the IGI)
There were a number of GOODBAN baptisms in Gt Mongeham, but only the one belonging to this family - the others were all from the same parents and spanned a period of (I think) over 20 years!
Charles (who according to someone with some Deal parish extracts was baptised at St Leonards 21 Feb 1841)
I didn't find this one - I will have to have another look.
I won't give up on this family - it has got me intrigued!!
Bill
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Hi Bill
LOL I wonder if any of those are related to one of Charles brother's. I am now completely bewildered by the roads, glad that someone understands them all.
Very puzzling about Catherine, wonder where the IGI got their details from then. LOL took me months to find out about my ggg grandfather Charles and I thought from there on it would be simple, but guess this family has a lot of mysteries!!
Thank you so much for your help & Casalguidi. Good to have you on board as they are completely stumping me! Sorry I can't be of more help.
Regards Gary
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Hmm, yes!
The IGI certainly has that baptism at Mongeham in 1832 - I don't know how I missed it. It gives a film reference for the source, so it is extracted, not submitted - I will have to take another look.
:-[
Bill
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I am now completely bewildered by the roads, glad that someone understands them all.
If you are ever in Deal I will be happy to show you around - that area hasn't changed too much since they were living there.
Bill
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Frances Maria remained an old maid and was "returned unopened" in January 1922, aged 75. She died at 46 College Road and was buried in Deal Cemetery (Hamilton Road) on 23rd January.
Benjamin Wolff died at 84 College Road aged 73 and was buried on 7th January 1941.
Stephen Arthur died in College Road (no number given in register) aged 60 and was buried on 1st October 1894.
There were 12 GOODBAN burials in this cemetery from 1877 to 1947 - the first of these being Emily Ann, aged 52, from 101 Lower Street, on 10th October 1877.
Bill
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Thank you for offer Bill, we are thinking of maybe making a trip down this year sometime, so if we do plan a visit will let you know!
Sorry but Frances Maria, what does it mean by "returned unopened"? Have never heard of that before. Curious she never married, still at least now I know what happened to her thanks to you.
Interesting about Emily Ann, wonder if she connects to this family somehow, will check her out on census's.
A very very long shot and I know that this side of the family were very poor, but would there be any gravestones for these people would you know? I know the likely hood is probably one in a zillion, as I have tried tracing gravestones of Charles children and most of them were buried in common graves with no headstones.
LOL but then being poor seems to be one of the bad sides I have inherited ;D.
Thanks again for your help and information, my cousin is going to love all these extra details and photos.
Regards Gary
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Benjamin Wolfe (who died in 1841, Deal, baptised in Deal)
I had another look at the registers today - there was another Benjamin, baptised at Gt Mongeham on 9th May 1830, buried 6th June 1832.
Caroline Elizabeth (who Casalguidi found through IGI for me, but can not trace her in 1841 census, so possibly she died, who is meant to have been baptised in Great Mongeham according to the IGI)
Caroline Elizabeth was baptised at Gt Mongeham on 30th September 1832, buried 12th March 1836.
Charles (who according to someone with some Deal parish extracts was baptised at St Leonards 21 Feb 1841)
That is correct - found it today - Charles GOODBAND.
Stephen was buried at Gt Mongeham (from Deal) on 11th December 1845, aged 42.
The surname appears variously in the records as GOODBAN, GOODBAND, GOODBORN & GOODBOURN (same families), so I would not discount GOODBURN either in your searches.
Still no sign of the baptism of Stephen c.1803 or their marriage c.1825.
I'm still looking!
Bill
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Ooohh that is interesting, I did think there was a bit of a gap between Amelia and Caroline and that possibly there could be other children, so that now confirms that.
Thank you for the information on Caroline, that explains her.
That's interesting that Stephen was taken back to Great Mongeham to be buried, makes me wonder if he had very strong family roots there or something that he wanted to be buried there or they chose to, as that is not normal is it?
Wonder why there is still no records of the marriage or his baptism. I guess if they got married in her parish, then that could be why, which is still not confirmed.
Will have a look around for the variation of names as you suggested.
Thanks again for your help, much appreciated.
Regards Gary
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Hello
I have a possible breakthrough or possibly not, so be interested to see what you guys think.
I took my girlfriend up to Whitstable for a couple of days for valentine's break and whilst there we decided to pop in the Canterbury cathedral for a couple of hours (have other rellies who came from Whitstable, who we wanted to look up a couple of details on). Anyway whilst there I thought I would look at the Great Mongeham parish records, to see if there were anything else in them, that may help.
Well interestingly I came across the other family that you referred to previously Bill as being from Great Mongeham (sorry don't know how to do quotes).
This was Thomas Goodban (Goodburn) & his wife Susanne Newing, they had 10 children, of which one of those was Edward born 1803 (again can't quote, but Bill you mentioned him being on the 1851 census, born in Great Mongeham). I noted from the parish records that Thomas & Stephen both used to go and claim their poor relief together and I did wonder if there was a connection between the two of them somehow even though Thomas is twenty years older then Stephen. Sadly not other additonal information to be found regarding Stephen, except that he refused to do a job as he wanted to do another one LOL.
Upon our return I checked the census records for Thomas & his wife (as he did not die till 1860) and from there I found that he was originally from Minster, Kent. I contacted someone with the Minster, Thanet parish records and she came back with the following:
Thomas Goodburn born 12/04/1783, baptised 27/04/1783 son of Thomas & Ann Goodburn (this ties in with his marriage, death and census records that his year of birth would be circa 1783).
Stephen Goodbourn born 02/02/1803, baptised 06/03/1803 son of John & Jane Goodbourn.
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]I asked her to check for a possible baptism record for Stephen as my thought was if that Thomas came from Minster, so too did possibly Stephen.
Do you think this could be my elusive Stephen?? Sadly she said there was no record of a marriage for him in Minster, so still at a mystery as to where he married Mary Ann. Is there any way I can confirm this is my Stephen?
So Thomas moved from Minster to Great Mongeham, married his wife who came from Ripple there and died there. This Stephen if he is mine, moved from Minster to Great Mongeham to Deal, to eventually be buried back at Great Mongeham.
Sadly were only at Whitstable for two days, so only had time to drive through Deal and not any time to stop and look around, so that will have to be another visit one day.
Hope it all makes sense. Regards Gary[/color]
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Hi Gary
If we can eventually find the marriage, that might help, but otherwise it's going to be difficult to prove he's the right one. Looks like a pretty good bet, though!
Pity you didn't have more time to explore Deal - it's a lovely little place, and Mongeham is right on the edge of the town.
Bill
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Hi Bill
So looks like I will have to eventually check every single town/parish in Kent at this rate for the marriage LOL, but if that is him then may be closer to finding their marriage maybe, if only could work out exactly where she was born that may be the clue.
It was a shame, but we will plan a longer trip there hopefully sometime this year. Especially if do manage to find out more about Stephen & Mary Ann then be interesting to see their home towns too.
Regards Gary
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An old request so you may well have it by now but, if not, Stephen GOODBURN married Mary Ann WOLFE at Sandwich St Mary 31 Oct 1825 http://www.familysearch.org (select Record Search Pilot)
Casalguidi :)
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Thank you Casalguidi, I had put the family tracing to one side for a while as other priorities came up, so NO I didn't have that information. Thank you that is great help and ties in with the other information that I thought maybe Stephen Goodban was born in Minster, not Great Mongeham or Deal and looking on map that is close to Sandwich, so looks like they may both be from around that area. Thanks again, will investigate this line further now when I get time, thanks again for all yours and Bill's help.
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From the Parish Records:
Children of Stephen & Mary Ann GOODBAN, Labourer. Dates are of Baptism, not Birth.
18 Mar 1835 Benjamin Wolfe GOODBAN at Castle Row St George's
15 Mar 1835 Henry Rolfe GOODBAN Castle Row St Leonard's
6 Oct 1837 Stephen Arthur GOODBAN Lower Road St Leonard's
21 Feb 1841 Charles GOODBAND Cannon Street St Leonard's
22 May1846 Frances Maria GOODBAN Lower Street St Leonard's
Hope this helps
Aj