RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: Rowanjay on Thursday 27 September 07 18:54 BST (UK)
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I have hit a brick wall with my Graham links and can't move on until I can get a possitive ID.
I am looking for Thomas Graham born (according to census) Irthingtonn Cumbria around 1823?
wife Elizabeth (?) born Renwick c 1832
There are at least 10 possible IDs for Thomas
and as many marriages so I can't order any certificates with asny accuracy... hence the problem
According to the census records Tom and Liz had two sons: John and George
I have IDd my gr-grandfather as John Graham, born Haltwhistle (or nr) c 1860 but there are three possible birth certs but without knowing his mother's maiden name I can't be sure which he is.
John married Alice Geddes (Gaddes)
John's brother was George born c 1868
John's father according to his marriage cert was
Does anyone have a link for Thomas or John that I can go with?
(sigh) If only they had less work-a-day names :-)
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My lot are grahams and 2 lots of smiths - and you think you've got troubles!
:>} My wife on the other hand is an altass - dead easy back to 1500.
2 things - does any of the info you have contain occupation to help cut down possibilities? and do you need mothers surname to cut down possibilities?
You can send for certificates and specify both occupation and mothers forename and if they don't match, you pay only for search and not certificate. I had a lot of trouble with GGF cos he was known on death, marriage and childrens birth certs as Henry but his (illiterate) mother had registered him as James Henry. The James never appears again.
Best of luck
bob
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You can also write to the local register office about the certificates and they usually don't charge to tell you whether you have the right one or not if you give them enough information.
What about church records? They often give extra information too.
Andrea
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Hi Bob and Andrea
replying to both at once
Yes, I both wrote to and rang the Carlisle reg office - and got the same answer...
There are several possibilities but none that they could say were absolute certs.
Too many Tom Grahams it seems :-)
I don't have a maiden name for Tom's wife, just her first name - Elizabeth - and the BMD records show between 8 & 12 Elizabeths married to Thomas Grahams in Cumberland depending on how wide an expected time frame I use.
Conversely the IGI records don't show any real contenders.
Given that Liz was quite possibly under age when she wed (depending on which Liz I choose) I suppose its always possible that Tom and Liz never married at all... (quelle scandal !! ;D)
Elizabeth's age does differ with each census record (she's a year or two 'younger' every time!!) so that possibility is not as off the wall as it sounds.
And yes, I have applied for Tom an Lizzie's son, John's, birth cert - almost three weeks ago, but have not had it back as yet... and now we have a post strike who knows when it will turn up (or if)
I seem to get thwarted at every turn - so maybe Tom really does not want to be found :-)
I have been looking for quite a while - and sort of finding a living relative in Haltwhistle who can confirm some basic facts I have come to the conclusion that it is all guess work - and not even educated guesses - its real leap in the dark stuff...
::)
but thank you both for posting replies.
It helps just to have a good old moan about these elusive links :D
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on Grahams and Smiths...
my Mother's family name is Edwards... from Wales! Its not unlike havins English Smiths... trust me :-) good thing there was that an uncle had done some research a few years back and so I had a start point.
My other half is a Colbourne - a name with at least 11 differing spellings - all of which they have used at some point :-) but gthere again I struck gold because some lovely person had actually published a 'single Name' book on them so I have traced them back to 1634. Cheating I know, but at least I can now concentrate on the spouse's lines
have fun
R
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I've posted this somewhere before but I think it bears repeating. IGI tends to peter out after 1837 when FreeBMD comes into it's own.]
bob
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The Irthington records should be on the IGI up to 1871 but it is always worth getting the film of the parish records to search at your nearest LDS centre if you have not already done so.
Bobgraham - there are many IGI records after 1837 but what we have to bear in mind is that they are records of the LDS church and record the temple sealings. They are not there to be a full record of church registers. They are incredibly useful for us but not meant to be a full record of church registers. They do not cover all registers by any means and we must always bear in mind that the nearby parish may not be on there and must therefore be searched at the local record office or indeed, occasionally, at the church itself.
As a very long shot it may be worth writing to everyone of that name in the Cumbria phone book. You just might strike lucky but I should look at the church records first. Start with Haltwhistle if you are sure that is your ancestor.
Andrea
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yes, I did think of that a few years back - and I did write to a dozen or more Grahams from the phone book in and around Haltwhistle explaining who I was and who I was trying to trace (and yes, I included return postage). I did not get a single reply.
Believe me when I say I have been on this trail for quite a long while
And I always hit that wall at every turn - its getting to be somewhat depressing :-\
But I still have a little go now and then by putting the info onmessage boards -just to see if there is anyone out there with a family link.
I lived closer to the area it might help as I could do more foot work.
However, its at least a five hour drive just getting to Haltwhistle from here so unless I have a totally genealogy based holiday up there its not really a viable option right now.
Maybe when I retire...
but thanks anyway
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I see your problem! After some time I did eventually find Alice Graham, a widow, living with her brother James Geddes in Haltwhistle in 1891. She has Fred, Blanche and Thomas with her. That led me back to John's family. The 1861 census is quite helpful as it states he is 8 months old. That census was taken on 8th March so you can pin his birth date down quite accurately. If you write to the local register office for Featherstone/Haltwhistle, saying they are living in Redpath in 1861 and assuming the birth was in the same area, quote the parents and Thomas' occupation I would think you have a fair chance of finding the right birth certificate.
Local offices are much more helpful than the GRO. They are listed on genuki if you do not know it. I don't think it will be Carlisle but might be wrong on that.
As for all the possible Thomas Grahams.... Not sure what to suggest. Some families are affluent and will have left wills. Church registers are probably the best bet.
There is quite an age gap between Thomas and Elizabeth. It did occur to me that it might be his second marriage. Again, it is likely to be shortly before (or after) John's birth so the local office may help there too.
Andrea
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hi
I have John's Marriage cert, and have applied for his birth cert.
It took me several years to get that far because I only had my Grandfather's name as Frederick William Graham - his birth cert which I eventually t6raced was under the name of Geddes (the fact that my Dad's elder brother had Geddes as his middle name abnd chance remark by my aunt many years back that this was a 'family name' was the only clue I had to that...
Its been s struggle and every tiny spec of info is hard won.
I had also wondered about Elizabeth being Tom's second wife - there is another marriage between a Thomas Graham with two sons for about the right time - oddly she was also Elizabeth. Again is made me wonder if My Elizabeth was married - if Tom ran off with a young lass and left his foirst wife?
more likely she had the first childfren died in some awful epidemic - but ikts yet another mystery to unravel.
I was told Carlisle was the office to ring by the local library... but will check again - people don't always have the right info at the time
thanks again for all the tips... one day I 'will' crack the Tom Graham mystery... and pigs will fly!!! ;D
BB
Jan
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Northumberland West area at Hexham register office covers Haltwhistle according to www.genuki.com
Andrea
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Andrea,
I did say peter out and I'm not knocking IGI. I was just making the point that after 1837, freebmd might be a better source of info and one can specify search criteria.
As regards the phone book, there are as many of us in our local phone book as there are Smiths or Browns so, although I agree with you in general, rowanjay's final initial comment applies - wish we had a less work-a-day surname.
And why do I love my wife?
Work a day bob
bob
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Hi Both
Yes, as you say, Andrea, Hexham covers Haltwhistle as part of Northumberland.
but when I called Hexham about John Graham I was told to contact Carlisle for Thomas Graham as he is listed in various census records as born in Irthington, Cumberland - except for one where he is listed as being born Brampton (Cumberland).
Mind you, that's not to say that I was not given wrong info by someone who was new on the job, or similar ::) it happens.
Maybe I will try Hexham again at some point. Or even Carlisle once more
Always worth a go
On IGI, Bob, personally I only ever use it as a sounding board - they have huge gaps in their records and they are not always that reliable in my experience
There are some huge leaps of faith made by some of the researchers that leave records there :-\.
Having said the above I agree that they tend to have less info after 1837 but I have found things useful to me right up to the 1930s.
IGI seems to be pretty much a pot luck thing. I have looked at Irthington's IGI and not found much to help - my Thomas Graham was born around 1830/33 and Freebmd does not start untill 1837 so it was worth a look - just didn't help much.
I guess I need to access an Irthington or even Brampton Parish record
But that is down to money - being on long term disability pension means that I can't afford to purchase too many records on spec - esp when the family tree already has branches and twigs extending into at least 11 counties in England and Wales.
Who ever said people seldom moved far from their roost before 1939 never met my tribe!! ;D
Oh for an easy tree like my husband's!!! All of them Hampshire born and bred...
But many thanks to you both anyway.
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I thought you were talking about Carlisle for John's birth certificate. Thomas is pre 1837 so yes, it will be a parish record search as it is pre registration. Surely there is an LDS centre somewhere near you? They get the film of any parish in for you - very cheaply. You can have hours of fun searching it and can get as much info out of the burials, which are not usually on the IGI, as you can from births and marriages. Years ago I used to drop my kids at school and playgroup and dash off to my nearest centre. I spent hours there and searched films for parts of the country that I could never have visited. I have not been recently as I am working and I suspect the advent of the internet has knocked their custom a bit but they still offer a marvellous service.
Andrea
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Hmm
not keen - used to live near the crawley temple and only went once - the staff spent all their time trying to convert me... and being non-christian that can get pretty annoying
but will give it some thought - I believe there is a small LDS chapel around 15 miles from where I am now
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Crawley was the one I went to. They totally ignored me from that point of view! You need the Family History Centres - not every chapel has them. They are listed on familysearch though.
Andrea
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Twas a long way back :-) very early internet days. And I think I was unfortunate to come across one of the 'Missionaries'
When I lived in Horley, in the late 70s, our street sometimes got two or three 'door steppings' every a month - but lets not get into that one ;D
But yes as I say there is a family history centre about 15/18 miles from here - I may give it a try - especially now that the garden needs less attention.
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well I have John's birth cert - I think!! His mother was Elizabeth Nicholson.
But there seems not to be a marriage to fit the dates and places - as I suspected Thomas and Elizabeth may not ever have officially wed. I guess that was not unusual
what is odd is that according to Freecen the only Elizbeth Nicholson in the 1851 census of approx the right age was from Scotland - and not from Renwick as subsequent census records insist
either I have the wrong birth cert if the plot very much thickens...
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Don't wish to be seen knocking it but I thought Freecen was only in its early stages so might not be comprehensive. If it works like freebmd, there will be charts telling you how well they have covered each census.
bob
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Not sure what else to try as I can't get a marriage cert until I can have a rough guess at when and where.
Yes, Freecen is patchy
But on the other hand Elizabeth appears to have been an habitual fibber - none of the info she gives anywhere on census returns etc seems to match up - its as if she enjoyed fun confusing authority so I may well be looking for her with out the real info anyway...
I do have a theory that she may have been an underage run-away and therefore did not want to give her real identity
Or perhaps Thomas was still married to someone else and therefore would/could not marry Elizabeth - he is at least 10 years her senior... so who knows. The cold trails at every turn do seem to hint at some intrigue somewhere along the line.
She marks John's birth cert with an X so was seemingly illiterate.
I may never find out who she or Thomas were I suppose.
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I think the only way forward with this is to look for her baptism. There are far to many Elizabeth Nicholsons bonr about that time in Cumberland or Northumberland on the 1841 and 51 census to be sure which is her. If you fail to find it in Renwick then you should consider the possibility that she was a widow when she married Thomas and that is why you cannot find the marriage as it would be under her married name, not her maiden name. Again parish records are an easier way of finding out I think.
Andrea
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There is an Elizabeth Nicholson born in Coglin around the right time - and that is close to Renwick... but as I am unlikely to be able to get to Cumbria top look at records in the forseeable future its not a mystery that will be solved very soon.
But thanks.