RootsChat.Com
General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: fionnghal on Thursday 27 September 07 01:55 BST (UK)
-
hi folks,
My husband's grandfather fought in the 1/5 Argyll & Suthd. Highlanders in WW1. He wasn't a career serviceman. We have his service no., his platoon &c but don;t understand the significance of the abbreviated 1/5 that precedes his regiment. We're guessing that one of the numbers relates to the Battalion and that the other may refer to a section or some such within it, but we'd be very grateful if someone could explain what it means.
We got these and the platoon details &c from a postcard addressed to his home address in Glasgow and are a little puzzled as to why he would send himself a card. Was all mail sent via their home address and the service sort out where it should go?
I'd be very grateful for any help or guidance
Thank you for your time and trouble
le durachd
fionnghal
-
Hi fionnghal !
Do you already have his service details ? if not ... tell us the details and maybe somebody can help you !
Of course you might just want to know about the postcard ::) .......... any chance there could have been a photo attached at one time ?
Annie :)
-
my goodness, Annie, that was quick :)
yes, I've got what the postcard said. It was a PC photo of his wife dated 7/7/1917.
it was addressed [in pencil] to him at:
Pte W Patrick [his full name was Walter Neilson Patrick]
no.201329 B Coy., 8 Platoon,
1/5 A & S High',
7 Logan st.,
South side,
Glasgow
Scotland
In the very top left hand corner is the pencilled no., 280. I've no idea if that has any significance. It is written in different handwriting from the rest. There was no message at all. Having worked out what regiment he was in, we thought if we understood more about what appeared perhaps to be a battalion reference, we'd be able to follow it up. We would love to know more about his time in the war and the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders.
if it wasn't addressed to him at his home address, I'd have assumed his wife was sending him a photo of herself
Thank you very much :)
le durachd
fionnghal
-
Well here's a start ..... here's his medal card .... it costs 3 pounds 50 to download from the National Archives !! Do you know if he came home fionnghal ?
Patrick, Walter
Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
3329
Private
Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
201329
Private
Date
1914-1920
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01yq/
Annie :)
-
ho, thanks a million :-) I'll away and get it.
Yes, he did come home but wouldn't talk about it at all. As a result, my husband knows little of where his grandad fought except that the Dardanelles was mentioned but someone said that the A & S High were never there, So that's another puzzle to be ironed out
I looked up:
http://www.btinternet.com/%7Ejames.mckay/dispatch.htm
but the Dardanelles wasn't listed, at least, i didn't associate any ofg the places listed with there, so perhaps they were right.
thanks again, Annie :)
le durachd
fionnghal
-
I have what seems to be 2 different accounts of the 1/5 battalion ! ....... I'll give them to you as I found them OK ? ( maybe they are the same !! ::) ) ... I'm sure somebody will put us on the right track if I'm wrong !! ::) when you get the medal card fionnghal .... post whats on there and somebody may be able to help you !
Annie :)
Princess Louise's Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders
91st and 93rd Regiment of Foot.
http://www.1914-1918.net/argyll.htm
Territorial Force ....... 1/5th (Renfrewshire) Battalion
August 1914 : in Greenock. Part of Black Watch Brigade, unallocated to a Division.
24 April 1915 : transferred to HLI Brigade, Lowland Division.
Formation became 157th Brigade, 52nd Division on 11 May 1915.
28 June 1918 : transferred to 103rd Brigade, 34th Division.
http://www.warpath.orbat.com/regts/argyls.htm
1/5th (1st Renfrewshire) Bn. Territorial Force. 04 Aug 1914 at the Drill Hall, Finart Street, Greenock in the Black Watch Brigade, Scottish Caost Defenses.
1/5th Bn Black Watch. 04 Aug 1914 - Oct 1914. Left the Brigade and went to France, joining the 8th Division on 13 Nov 1914.
1/5th Bn Black Watch. 13 Nov 1914 - 18 Oct 1915. Became the Pioneer Bn.
1/5th Bn Black Watch. 18 Oct 1915 - 06 Jan 1916. To the 51st Division.
1/5th Bn Black Watch. 06 Jan 1916 - 25 Feb 1916. To the 39th Division.
1/5th Bn Black Watch. 29 Feb 1916 - 15 Mar 1916. Amalgamated with the 1/4th Bn to form the 4/5th Bn.
4/5th Bn Black Watch. 15 Mar 1916 - 14 May 1918. To the 15th Division.
4/5th Bn Black Watch. 14 May 1918 - 05 Jun 1918. To the 44th Brigade.
4/5th Bn Black Watch. 05 Jun 1918 - 11 Nov 1918.
-
Wow! Annie, i searched for them but couldn't find anything as detailed as this.
I'll let you know as soon as the medal card comes. I think it will arrive by e-mail but how much of a difference that'll make to how quickly the order will be processed, i don't know. The staff would have been in their pits last night when i bought it.
Thanks again. your help is very much appreciated :)
le durachd
fionnghal
-
You have got two units there 1/5th A&SH & also the 1/5th Black Watch, You need to go back to the 1/5th A&SH
1/5th (Renfrewshire) Battalion TF.
4/8/14 Drill Hall, Finnart street, Greenock: Attached Black Watch Brigade, Army Troops. Scottish Coast Defences, 24/4/1915 to the HLI Brigade Lowland Division. At Dunfermline. 11/5/1915 formation became 157th Infantry Brigade, 52nd Lowland Division, 1/6/1915 embarked at Devonport, 12th June Alexandria, 1/7/1915 arrived Mudros, 3/7/1915 landed at Cape Helles, Gallipoli, 8/1/1916 to Mudros, Feb 1916 to Egypt, 11/4/1918 sailed from Alexandria and arrived Marseilles, 17 April. 28/6/1918 left 52nd Division to 103rd Infantry Brigade, 34th Division, 11th Nov 1918 at Bambeccque 103rd Bde, 34th Div, France; Halluin.
-
thank you very much, monsstar, the mention of Gallipoli in that list brings the possibility of old Walter having fought at the Dardanelles back into the equation.
thank you for your time and trouble. i'll keep you posted as more comes to light :)
le durachd
fionnghal
-
Thanks Monstar ... I knew you'd set me right ... I thought it looked a bit funny ... should have stuck to Chris Baker ! :)
Annie :)
-
Annie You always do a great job yourself.
-
oooh errr Roy !
Thank you !
PS What you havin' ?? ;D
-
hi Folks, at last, the medal cert. you wouldn't believe the mess i managed to make of acquiring it :-[ i thought i'd never get my mits on it.
so, at long last, here it is. I'm not sure, however, that it takes us any further forward, but perhaps you know better.
I'm wondering now, if i write to Edinburgh Castle, The War Museum, would they be able to identify his war record from the battalion & service nos. and if we'd be able to buy a copy. What do you think?
thank you very much for you time :)
le durachd
fionnghal
-
Hi :)
The best place to seek out his information would be the National Archives at Kew. But, you never know what information the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders museum holds.
Their museum is in Stirling. Here is a link to their address and email:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0221/
-
Thanks a lot :)
-
My grandfather was also in the 1/5 Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders during WW1, unfortunately it appears that his military details were part of the 70% of documentation destroyed in the blitz in WW2, so any info I have is passed down via the family.
The 1 in the 1/5 refers to the fact that this territorial battalion was a 1st line battalion ie always destined for front line duties, whereas 2/5 was a 2nd line battalion used for other duties and as reserves for the 1st line.
I would recommend two very interesting books relating to the time your husbands grandfather WW1 experiences, both show what an absolutely terrible time he and his army comrades endured , a fact many people do not know about, as the eastern theatre of operations was labelled a "cushy billet" by those fighting on the western front , on the basis that it was sunny and on not trench warfare(incorrect).
The first book is Forgotten Soldiers of the First World War by David R Woodward and the second is the history of his division from Gallipoli to the end of the war on the western front, this is simply called Fifty Second (Lowland) Division 1914-1918 written in 1922 by Lieutenant R.R. Thomson.
-
ceud mile taing 'son sin / 100,000 thanks for that.
that was really helpful info and advice, dduncan :)
at one point ages ago, i wrote to Edinburgh castle and they informed me that the 1/5 were never involved in the Dardanelles!! but i've since been reassured that they indeed were!
I'll go and chase down these books :-)
tioraidh an-drast' / bye for now
Fionnghal
-
The 1/5 A&SH were incorporated into the Highland Light Infantry in 1915, prior to being sent to the Dardanelles ,the HLI in turn were renamed the 157 Brigade which was part of the 52nd Lowland Division, this may have masked the involvement of the 1/5 in the campaign.
The books I have recommended will explain this much better than I can.
Please note that Forgotten Soldiers is a book of letters from contemporaries of our forbears and not specifically about the the 1/5 or 52 Division.None of the letters incorporated actually comes from members of the 1/5 but the narrative and letters describe what happened to them in the eastern theatre and the conditions endured, so is well worth the read.
-
Thank you very much indeed. That explains things :)
Fionnghal