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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Surrey Lookup Requests => Surrey => England => Surrey Completed Look up Requests => Topic started by: Michael J on Wednesday 26 September 07 17:41 BST (UK)
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Help needed with this brick wall, please, anyone.
I am trying to find the birth of John Luxton, born c.1803 – 1805, and his marriage to Ursula James who was born about the same time as him. I have two Surrey birth certificates in which John is named as the father, with Ursula Luxton formerly James named as the mother. The first is for Mary b.2 Nov 1839 and the second is for George b.13 Dec 1841. I know of 9 children in all from three census records.
In 1841, HO107/1705/26/14, John and Ursula are both 36, living in Kingston Surrey, where they and their children are all down as born 'in county'.
In 1851, HO107/1603/422/14, the ‘where born’ entries are rather indistinct, but possibly John was born in Cheriton Devon and his wife Ursula was born in Launcells Cornwall. Both are aged 47.
The 1861, RG9/455/34/24, just says 'Devonshire' for the parents, both age 58. Incidentally, they seem to age 11 years between each census!
The Surrey death certificates say age 61 for John Luxton in Dec 1864 and age 62 for 'Asella' in Jan 1865.
All the John Luxton births in Devon seem to have been accounted for through the Luxton FHS except the John Luxton illegitimate son of Elizabeth Luxton, baptised 5th Jan 1805 in Wembworthy; and John, son of William Luxen of the parish of Crediton and Ann his wife, baptised at Cheriton Bishop 21st October 1803. No-one seems to know what happened to these two, especially the second as this seems the most likely.
This query was first posted on the Cornwall Rootschat forum re Ursula, and the answers confirm that there is just one marriage in the Cornwall records for an Ursula James, that being the one in Launcells to a John Coles on 15 Aug 1822. The only birth on IGI in Launcells for an Ursula James is 13 Sept 1805, father Thos. James.
Is the Ursula James married to John Luxton the same Ursula who married John Coles ??? and is the Launcells birth record for the same person? I don't think it could be a second marriage as the Surrey birth certificates for two of her children clearly state 'Ursula Luxton formerly James' and no mention of 'previously Coles'.
I have details of the families after this date, but can't get any further back and would dearly love some help, please.
Michael J.
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Hi Michael,
This must be so frustrating for you :( I can only tell you that there's no marriage on the Surrey Marriage Index for a John Luxton, but it mostly covers rural Surrey which includes All saints, Kingston.
Have you found a burial for this John Coles in Cornwall or evidence on the early census of a John & Ursula Coles? To all intents & purposes it does look like her. The place of birth, Launcells & her name, Ursula which isn't that common all seem to fit. Maybe she did marry this John Coles, if she was baptised as a baby she would have only been about 17. Any evidence of children for John & Ursula Coles in Cornwall? Was the marriage an actual marriage or a licence allegation? Clutching at straws here but could she have had the marriage annuled (or her parents) as she was under age? therefore reverted to her maiden name?
jane
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Hello Jane,
Many thanks for checking the Surrey Marriage Index, and your thoughts. Yes, it's very frustrating - we've been stuck here for the last 17 odd years.
Before the internet came along I wrote to the Cornwall and Devon FHS's. Cornwalls very kind and helpful researcher checked for a burial at Launcells for both John and Ursula Coles but couldn't find anything - and she looked up to 1900! Nor are there any baptisms for any children under either Coles or Luxton, or a John Luxton/Ursula Coles marriage.
She checked their marriage index between 1813 and 1837 and there is a marriage for Ursula James at Launcells (entry 63 on the Launcells Parish Church marriage register) which confirms she married John Coles, both of the parish, by banns on 15 August 1822. Both made their marks and there are two witnesses (the clerk and a Henry House), but no other details - no ages and no mention of parents etc. This marriage is on the IGI for Cornwall. Devon FHS couldn't find anything at all.
We've tried looking for births and baptisms for their children as this could tell us when they arrived in Kingston, where they remained for the rest of their lives, but have not found anything.
The eldest daughter of John Luxton and Ursula in 1841 was Maria, age 15 and thus born about 1826, as this particular folio gives the exact ages of everyone and hasn't rounded them down to the nearest 5 years. We haven't been able to find where she was born but we do have a copy of her marriage certificate to a Charles Green, horsekeeper, on 18 May 1845, both of full age. We've found what must be her in 1851 at Caroline Place Kingston, HO107/1603/401/4, although Charles isn't home and her place of birth is given as Birmingham :o Next door is James and Jane Pett, whose daughter Louisa (13 in 1851) married Maria's younger brother Thomas Luxton on 1 April 1861 at the Independent Chapel Kingston.
Michael J.
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Do you think there's any possibility that John Coles & John Luxton are the same person?
jane
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Hello Jane,
Yes, we had considered that but have been unable to find why he may have changed his name, or in which way.
There's three possibilities:
1. He may have had to leave the South-west and change from Coles to Luxton to avoid some problem or other.
2. He may be a Luxton who got married under an assumed name, possibly because of his or his family's reputation.
3. He may be a Luxton who ran off with John Cole's wife! Although intriguing, this is probably most unlikely because we haven't found any other mention of John Coles anywhere.
Most puzzling,
Michael J.
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I was thinking he might have been born John Cole but assumed a step-father's name later. Have you checked bastardy Bonds, court proceedings, poor law records around the time of his birth?
jane
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No, we haven't checked any of those so many thanks for suggesting new avenues to research. ;D
Because in 1851 he says he was born in Cheriton Devon we will have to start there.
If he was born as John Coles how likely is it that he would change to a step-father's name after marriage?
Michael J.
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Thinking about it, Michael, I don't think my theory holds water as you said there was no marriage between a Luxton & a Coles. If he was born Coles (legitimate or not) & his mother later married a Luxton, I'm sure you would have found that marriage. I have seen the name change for this reason, just to avoid confusion I suppose. The other thing to look for is wills,
jane
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Thinking about it, Michael, I don't think my theory holds water as you said there was no marriage between a Luxton & a Coles. If he was born Coles (legitimate or not) & his mother later married a Luxton, I'm sure you would have found that marriage. I have seen the name change for this reason, just to avoid confusion I suppose. The other thing to look for is wills,
SORRY THAT GOT POSTED TWICE
jane
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Michael, did a little digging yesterday. On Familyhistoryonline, I found a burial at St. Mary's, Lambeth, Surrey for John Luxton of Bird Street. Buried 11/11/1810. No age unfortunately but goes to show Luxton's were in Surrey. On the Surrey Burial Index; Robert Luxton buried 11/10/1838, Kingston...very likely one of yours? I had a quick look at FreeBMD to see what was going on & I got the impression that there might be at least two Luxton families in Kingston at the same time as I found birth registrations for a Henry Q2 1844 & a John Q3 1844..I could be wrong on this. I also had a look at those 3 census & agree with you about places of birth & ages. Of course, Maria might not have been THE eldest child but that Kingston burial is the ONLY one in the name of LUXTON or LOXTON.
John Luxton & John Coles are certainly giving the appearance of being the same person :o
PS. On the TNA wills site there is a Thomas Luxton, Bricklayer of Lambeth Green, Surrey, 28/7/1814. Could be something, could be nothing but again confirms there was a family there in the early 1800's.
sorry forgot to include that Robert Luxton who was buried Kingston was 19 months.
jane
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Found this marriage on Boyds index.
Rob LUXTON
Hannah COLE
1795 - Exeter Cathedral, Devon
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That looks promising, Sue :D Could be his parents???
jane
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There is an extracted baptismal record on the IGI;
Robert Luxton s/o Robert & Hannah, 18/11/1797, St. Peter Catherdral, Exeter.
jane
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Michael, you need to take a look at the Access to Archives (A2A) if you haven't done so already, there's masses of stuff in the name of Luxton. Search in South West counties to cover Devon & Cornwall & South East to cover Surrey, not so much there but interesting!
http://www.a2a.org.uk/
jane
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The Cole/Luxton is on Pallots marriage index.
It says Robert Luxton, schoolmaster of St. Pauls and Hannah Cole of the ???(can't make it out). looks like Clne
Looks like the marriage was by licence.
Maybe someone else can take a look and sort it out. :-\
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Hi All,
Many thanks for your interest, and all the helpful suggestions.
The Luxton name and variations seem to have originated in the Devon area, as this is where the majority are found.
The 1992 IGI for Surrey shows Luxons/Luxtons in Surrey from 1546, but only three from our branch - two births and a marriage of John Luxton's children in Kingston from 1840 onwards.
For Devon, the list of Luxton's extends from page 25,443 to 25,468 - with an average of 60 names per page and, of course, it's notoriously incomplete. The Devon pages also have at least 120 John Coles, with 27 or so born between 1800 and 1806. I did buy printouts of all these from Bromley library in the early 1990's, but have been able to confirm only the three Kingston entries. The Cornwall pages have so many Coles entries that I didn't know where to start.
Brian Luxton, the secretary of the Luxton FHS, has compiled numerous trees but has not been able to find any earlier connections to John Luxton/Ursula James. In the 1800's there were several families in Kingston and further into London; these have forenames not usually found in those we are researching.
On the Devon page of GENUKI is a very good article on how the Poor Law worked, http://genuki.cs.ncl.ac.uk/DEV/DevonMisc/Settlement.html
giving some very good reasons why John and Ursula may have had to leave Devon or Cornwall and change their surname, so Jane's suggestion of where to check next seems promising - where could we find these records?
Michael J.
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Sorry, forgot to mention, we have found where John and Ursula are buried - in Bonner Hill Cemetery, Kingston, in separate graves in areas which are now grassed over so no headstones.
Michael J.
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Was that Pallots on Ancestry, Sue?
jane
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Michael, I would think poor law records/settlement certificates etc would be at the Devon Records Office for the area you seek. I'm not familiar with Devon but if like Sussex, which is a large county, they have two records offices, one for the west & one for the east.
You can also search ARCHON on the TNA site, that might reveal where certain things are kept. What's your thoughts on Sue's Luxton/Cole marriage at Exeter?
jane
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http://localhistory.kingston.ac.uk/db_forms/LocalHistoryForm.asp
Have you seen this, Michael?
jane
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Yes Jane, thats on Ancestry.
The Luxton links that Michael have links to probably have the Luxton/Cole marriage on record and may have followed them up.
:-\
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Thanks ;)
jane
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Jane,
Yes, the Kingston University site is where we found that Ursula was buried in the same cemetery as John - previously we only knew of her burial service at All Saints Kingston but couldn't find a grave there. Also, the birth you found of John Q3 1844 is the ninth and youngest child of John and Ursula that we know of.
Sue,
The problem we have with the Robert/Hannah marriage is that neither of these names are in any of the subsequent families. However, we have to try to find whether they had a son John around 1800 - 1805. There are other instances of Luxton/Coles marriages in Devon; William Luxton son of John Luxton and Ann Down had a second marriage to a Mary Coles on 10 Jan 1824, ref correspondance with Brian Luxton.
Michael J.
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It might help clarify everything if we could find when John and Ursula arrived in Kingston, and where their eldest children were born, in the hope that this might give some clues.
John is shown in the census for 1851 & 1861 as a Farm labourer, and lived in the cottages called The Wanderings at Wanderings Farm. The farm was on the eastern corner of the junction of Cambridge Road and Hampdens Road (Bonner Hill Cemetery is at the bottom of Hampdens Road). Are there likely to be any surviving records of this farm, and are they likely to show any details of their workers?
Michael J.
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Michael, I think you need to get as close to the source as you can. Try the Kingston Museum & Local History site, they might have the answers you need. As you say, finding births/baptism's for John & Ursula's children should be a priority.
http://www.kingston.gov.uk/museum
jane
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Just been looking at Familyhistoryonline for clues as to baptism's
http://www.familyhistoryonline.net/ Several in Wiltshire of the right time-line. Could they have stopped off there before fetching up in Kingston?
Charlotte Jane LUXTON found in Wiltshire Baptisms , 1824
Fanny LUXTON found in Wiltshire Baptisms, 1822
Jane LUXTON found in Wiltshire Baptisms, 1828
John LUXTON found in Cornwall Baptism Index 5 entries in Cornwall between 1636 and 1857
Thomas LUXTON found in Cornwall Baptism Index 3 entries in Cornwall between 1810 and 1861
Thomas James LUXTON found in Dorset Baptisms. 1824
jane
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Hi Jane,
We did think they might have stopped off between Cornwall and Surrey, but couldn't find anything on the IGI fiches for any of the counties in between.
I've just checked all the 6 names you found on Familyhistoryonline, but sad to say none of them have John or Ursula as a parent.
The 9 children and approximate dates we have are:
Maria b.1826 m.1845
Elizabeth b.1830
Thomas b.1833 m.1861
William b.1835
Sarah b.1837 m.1861
Mary Anne b.1839 m.1859
George b.1841
Emma Charlotte b.1844
John b.1844 d.1845
We will have to try the Kingston Local History museum when it's open.
Michael J
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Good luck, Michael. They might have a dusty document tucked away in their archives :)
jane
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Hi Jane,
Not much progress yet; Kingston Local History Centre have nothing in their archives.
I found the Exeter Cathedral registers on line, but as thought Robert & Hannah are not ours. The only John Luxton mentioned there was married in 1717.
Surrey History Centre could be more promising, they have quite a bit re Norbiton Farm including correspondence from the Farm Bailiff around the right dates. We now have to find whether Wanderings Farm on Norbiton Common was renamed Norbiton Farm - also the Kingston Workhouse had an outlying site on Norbiton Common, in Marsh Lane New Malden, called Norbiton Farm . . . .
The workhouse minute books and other records are at Woking.
Michael J.
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Woking will make a nice day out, Michael :) The staff are very helpful there.
jane
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Hi, I have (somewhere) a copy of the original birth certificate of Sarah Luxton, I know that the address given is for The wanderings Kingston. Also I remember that there was some mix-up with the surnames, Pett and Luxton. Will root it out and send it through. Sarah was my GG grandmother, I also have a photograph of her.
Regards
Brenda
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Hi Brenda,
It's nice to hear from you, which Sarah is the certificate for - is it Sarah born 1837, who married James Wells in 1861?
Thomas b.1833, an older brother of the Sarah above, married Louisa Pett (in 1861 also) and one of his children was Sarah, b.1857, who married James Bone.
We must be cousins somewhere along the line, but I get confused with all the various 'removed' numbers.
Regards Michael.
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My sarah Married James Bone, will forward certs and photo on later. Do you have any photo's if so would love to see them
Regards
Brenda
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as promised certs of Sarah Luxton birth and marriage. On the birth it shows Sarah's father to be Thomas Pett and her mother Louisa Luxton and on her marriage her father is Thomas Luxton. I feel this is a mistake as neither were literate. I might have to send seperately as large files
Brenda
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Sarah's birth
Brenda
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Hello Brenda,
Thanks for posting pics of the original certificates - the birth certificate names are definitely a mis-understanding at the registrar's office which wasn't corrected as the happy father couldn't read what had been written!
I have found Louisa in various census returns, did you know she re-married a Christopher Baker after her husband Thomas died? In 1901 she and and second husband are living in just one room in the house of a John Bone and another Sarah Bone.
Sorry, I don't have any photos earlier than 1945 - if there are any they may be with a cousin.
Regards Michael.
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Hi Michael , yes I was aware that Louisa remarried. I have a fair amount of info on the family. What is your connection to the family. Have attatched a photo of Sarah Bone nee Luxton.
Regards
Brenda
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Hello Brenda,
What a lovely photo, I take it that Sarah is the older of the two girls.
I am sending you a private email re connections etc.
Regards Michael.
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Mary Blackwell nee Pett
Brenda
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Hello Brenda,
Another lovely photo, do you know when it was taken? In the 1851 census Mary is 16, living next door to Thomas Luxton's elder sister Maria.
Here is a 1945 photo of John Luxton b.1875 with his wife Gertrude Roffey cropped from a wedding photo; as you can see he is very like his sister Sarah born 17 years before him.
Michael.
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Hello Michail, sorry I never got back to you yesterday but we have the builders in and everywhere is in a bit of a mess. The photo is fantastic, the resemblance is amazing, I will sort out one of my Great gran Ruth Stockley (Sarah's daughter) and my grandad George Stockley and you will see that they too all look alike, in fact my mother does as well and as everyone say's that I am the double of my mother I suppose I do.
I have no idea when Mary's photo was taken but I will ask the person who sent it to me, all other info and photo's come from my mother.
Regards
Brenda
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Here is a map of Wanderings Farm, Kingston. The four quarters do not match up exactly as I've assembled it from the corners of four maps.
In the 1851 census the houses were shown as 'Upper Wanderings' and 'Lower Wanderings', I think the upper were along what is now Cambridge Road.
Michael.
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Hi Michael, thanks for the map, I have searched for many years to find out about the Wanderings, my grandad used to say it was a Gypsy camp. the firs photo is of Ruth Stockley nee Bone, Sarah Luxton's daughter and my great grandmother. The 2nd photo is of my grandad George Stockley and his sister Violet on her 90th birthday in 1991. My mother is to the left of him. The photo of Mary Pett is believed to have been taken in the 1870's
Regards
Brenda
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Michael I have been having trouble sending larger photo's, I do not normally have this when sending by e-mail so if you would like to view them on a larger scale maybe we could exchange e-mails
Regards
Brenda
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Hi Michael
Just found this thread while trawling the net. Interesting!
Sarah Luxton b: 1837, was my gt gt grandmother, I believe she married a second time with Joseph Steer in 1870 and possibly a third time to Charles William Hall, in 1896. Sarah, may have died in 1908 as Sarah Hall, not confirmed. Any help appreciated here. I have snippets of info about Sarah's siblings, probably nothing compared to what you already have but you're welcome to share. I thought Ursula James was b: Launcells, but found another ref from Crediton, Devon, "I'm not that brilliant at this" I have no birthplace for John Luxton but he may have been at Barnstable, Devon, in 1841 Census. I have listed all the children as born in Kingston district though, Hmm. I would have got this from census but I don't currently have an Ancestry sub so can't recheck
Some of my info was found sometime ago so not entirely sure of some sources. I got a bit bogged down and moved on.
Howard
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Hi Howard,
Many thanks for your message (and welcome cousin), I don't have a lot of info on John Luxton's children but I did find Sarah b.1837 on the 1861 census. She was living with her husband James Wells and son George aged 2 with her father John and Ursula in Malden Road Norbiton, ref RG9/0455/34/24.
We have Sarah's parents John and Ursula on the 1841 and 1851 census', and it's on the 1851 that they say they are born in Cheriton Devon and Launcells.
I would be grateful to hear whatever info you have - it may well be new to me :D
Michael.
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Hi Howard,
I've sent you a pm with some details I've found on Sarah and her siblings,
Michael.
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Quote from original post:
‘All the John Luxton births in Devon seem to have been accounted for through the Luxton FHS except the John Luxton illegitimate son of Elizabeth Luxton, baptised 5th Jan 1805 in Wembworthy; and John, son of William Luxen of the parish of Crediton and Ann his wife, baptised at Cheriton Bishop 21st October 1803. No-one seems to know what happened to these two, especially the second as this seems the most likely.’
The Devon Record Office has now sent us copies of the registers showing the marriage in 6.4.1786 of William Luxon and Ann Chidleigh in Colebrooke, together with the baptisms of their children Mary 1797, William 1799, John 31.10.1802, another Mary 1805 and Sarah 1806, all in Cheriton Bishop. They have also sent copies of the Removal Orders (apprenticeships until the age of 21) arranged by the Churchwardens and Overseers of the Poor in Colebrooke in 1809 for a William Luxton aged 10, and in 1813 for a John Luxton aged 10, to a Mary Ebbels of Brownsland. These all seem to be a close fit to our elusive John Luxton.
The National Archives also show that Mary Ebbels took another apprentice in 1819 and this may well be because John absconded (not uncommon for Poor Law apprentices) - fitting in with the family story of our John Luxton running away and changing his name.
I think this is the closest we are going to get to tracing John and his parents, and give my grateful thanks to everyone for their suggestions and ideas.
Michael.
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Hello there. Not sure if anyone is still researching this family as I see there hasn't been a post here for a couple of years. I am related to this family through Maria, John and Ursula's daughter. Her son Henry is my great great grandfather. From the research I have done, Maria died in 1853, and I am not sure what happened to Henry for the next few years. He was born in 1844, before Maria and Charles Green married, and although he is on the 1851 census with the name Green, he married in 1867 back under the name Luxton, which he obviously reverted to after his mother's death (I have been unable to find him on the 1861 census). Charles Green and Henry's sister Harriet both seem to have vanished without trace.
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Hi cousin,
So nice to hear from you and, yes, we are still researching this family and believe we have traced them so far to a marriage in 1675 in Ashreigny in Devon.
We look forward to comparing notes with you,
Michael.
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Hi Michael
I've also been trying to find the parents of John Luxton m Ursula James so was interested in how complicated it is! My husband is great grandson of Henry Bernard Fink and Sarah Luxton (daughter of Henry Luxton, son of Marie Luxton, daughter of John Luxton and Ursula).
My main interest is that although I knew that the family lived in or near Kingston, John Luxton seems to have been born in Cheriton and I wonder if he has any connection to my own descent from the Devon Luxtons.
Now seems unlikely if John's father was a Luxon/Luxen rather than a Luxton.
I'd love to know how far you have got with your research.
Frances
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Hi Frances,
Welcome to RootsChat, we do seem to have the same line of descent up until the middle 1800's.
The surnames Luxton/Luxon/Luxen etc seem to have been interchangeable down the years - it all depends on how the person writing the record thinks the name should be spelt!
I see this is your first post, you will need to make two more before we can exchange private messages with more info.
Michael.
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Hi again
Just going to post 2 more messages so I qualify!
My own Luxton descent line is Grandmother = Florence Luxton, her parents were Alfred Luxton and Anna Furze, Alfreds parents were Richard Luxton and Frances (Fanny) Webber. Richards father was another John Luxton born 1797 in Winkleigh
Frances
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Hi again
queenholly mentioned being great great descendant of Henry Luxton b 1845 Kingston. My husband would be interested in knowing which line you then come from. He comes through Henrys daughter Sarah Ann Luxton m Henry Bernard Fink. Their daughter Rose Ellen Fink b 1902 m Clifford John Reeve. Their son was John Bernard Reeve and his son David Reeve is my hubby.
Frances
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Hi Frances,
It looks like your hubby is my cousin, but I'm unsure how many times removed. It's very interesting that you also come from a Luxton line. I'm descended from Maria's younger brother Thomas; the details below are from my reply number 2 on the first page of this thread.
The eldest daughter of John Luxton and Ursula in 1841 was Maria, age 15 and thus born about 1826, as this particular folio gives the exact ages of everyone and hasn't rounded them down to the nearest 5 years. We haven't been able to find where she was born but we do have a copy of her marriage certificate to a Charles Green, horsekeeper, on 18 May 1845, both of full age. We've found what must be her in 1851 at Caroline Place Kingston, HO107/1603/401/4, although Charles isn't home and her place of birth is given as Birmingham. Next door is James and Jane Pett, whose daughter Louisa (13 in 1851) married Maria's younger brother Thomas Luxton on 1 April 1861 at the Independent Chapel Kingston.
I do have a pdf showing the ancestors of Henry Green but I don't think it's possible to add it to posts here. If you send me your email address by private message I can send it to you (it's best not to show email addresses on these posts).
Michael.