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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Berkshire => Topic started by: newburychap on Sunday 23 September 07 14:46 BST (UK)
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I am commencing a study of the many drinking holes of Newbury (modern boundaries) of which there are quite a few and were many many more. If you have a Newbury licencee in your ancestry and can provide any biographical details I would love to have them.
In return a photo of your ancestor's pub, if I can find one, or its site if I can't.
Of course if you have old photos of any Newbury pubs I would love to see them; many of those that closed in realtively recent times seem to have evaded the photographers - such as those mentioned in the press cutting attached.
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Hi Newbury chap,
My Great Grandfather Charlew New. b. 1855 and my Grandfather, Charles Edmund New b. 1876, both were Licensees of the London Apprentice Inn at Newbury, from the late 1890's approx up until about 1910 when they migrated to Australia.
I do have a copy of a photograph of the Inn that I can send through to you if you wish, but any other information I don't have and would appreciate any research you are able to give me about this Inn.
While on the subject of the New Family, I am trying to find any living descendants of John New b. 1832 (my great great grandfather), who was a Policeman at Marylebone, and returned to Newbury. Wondering if there were still some still living in Newbury.
Jan
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I don't know if there are any of your NEWs still living in Newbury but the name crops up often enough in the town over the years. If you want to find any current NEWs you could try putting a message on the local forum at www.newbury.net/forum/ probably in the 'memories' forum.
The Old London Apprentice, or just the London Apprentice was closed in 1937 and demolished c1950 to make way for a roundabout (the fate of several Newbury pubs I'm afraid). I do have several photographs of the pub but would love to see yours - it may be one that I haven't come across before.
The name lives on in a much more modern pub further out from the town centre. The new (1950s) pub has a signboard showing a young boy sewing away - which totally misses the point as the name comes from the London apprentices who fought so bravely at the 1st Battle of Newbury in 1643. A massed group of pikemen would be a far more appropriate sign.
Back to your NEWs I do recall a newspaper item reporting on the Borough Police Court where licensing issues were handled. A brewery was applying for a change of licensee as the current holder was going to Australia. I will look it out and see if it is your chap.
Found it - from the Newbury Weekly News of 9 Nov 1911:
"The license of the Old London Apprentice was transferred from Edmund New, who is leaving for Australia, to William George Bosley."
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Thanks for all this information, yes my Great Grandfather Charles was the original Licensee, dates unknown, but he left for Australia probably around 1910 or 1911. My Grandfather Charles Edmund New took over as Licensee, at some time , and as you say he migrated to Australia also in 1912. Interesting we didn't know that his brother-in-law took over the Licence, great information, thank you very much.
I only have one copy of the London Apprentice Inn, which was provided to me by the Berkshire Museum, a copy of a plate that was found under a church in Newbury. You may already have this one, I am just having trouble with scanning at the moment on my computer, so will get back to you later as soon as I can rectify it.
I would love to see any other photographs that you may have on this Inn.
One of Charles New's brothers, Edmund New was also the Licensee of the Two Brewers Inn, he and his wife Emily were Licensees for quite some time, certainly the censuses of 1891 and 1901 show Edmund & Emily still there.
If you could give me any information on this Inn as well, would love to receive it. We believe that one of their cousins, namely Arthur Daniel New was born in one of these Inns, whether you access to information on this I don't know, but would be happy to receive whatever information you can provide.
Best regards
Jan
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Don't worry about the scanning - I know the picture you have received from the museum. It was found under the floor boards of the Congregational church schoolrooms when the building was refurbished - along with 300 other magic lantern slides. Sadly there are only a few of the Newbury area but they are an amazing record of the times (1860-80). I gave a talk using these images not long ago. It is far the best available image of the pub although there is a nice postcard showing it in context with St John's church, sadly I have yet to get hold of a copy.
Your use of 'original licensee' is a little ambitious - there were plenty of licensees before your Charles New - the pub was around in 1761 (the date of the earliest known list of Newbury pubs). Immediately before Charles were Daniel Challis and, for a short period, his widow (in a 1901 directory). One of Daniel's descendents works in the museum. Charles New first appears in a 1903 directory. A search of the Newbury Weekly News (NWN) would probably tie the dates down more closely - but I have only done this for a couple of years (you were lucky with 1911). If Charles was the landlord immediately prior to his departure for Australia then it seems the brewery (Newbury Brewery Co) allowed him to transfer the license to his son. This could be checked in the NWN. C New was the landlord at the time of the valuation survey in 1910/11 - which cannot be dated very accurately I'm afraid.
The London Apprentice was owned by Newbury Corporation for many years - they sold it in 1898 (for £2890) when the fashion for temperance made it 'not quite right' for charities and official bodies to own premises that sold the demon drink. In 1922 the town council made one of their regular attempts to close a few pubs and included the Apprentice in the list of 11 pubs they wanted to close. In reality they were trying to close one pub in each of three areas of town and they didn't really mind which. The Apprentice was included with the Red House and the Wellington Arms as contenders for closure in the City. On this instance they failed and all three City pubs survived. There are a few small publications on the City area of town - all of which will include the Apprentice.
The Two Brewers was in West Mills opposite the Town Mills near the church. It was closed ca 1955 (see my opening post in this thread). The building has since been demolished. This was another old pub from the 1761 list. I recently showed an Australian couple the site of the pub as they too had an ancestor/relative who was landlord at one time (another Challis I think). There are far fewer pictures of the Two Brewers, the museum has a painting (fairly amateur but nonetheless interesting) and there is a postcard from the 1940s that I have seen in a private collection.
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Thank you so much for all this information once again. Yes I was a little ambiguous in my statement about the "original" Licensee. I actually meant that Charles was the original New family member to be Licensee.
If you are ever able to get a copy of photo of Two Brewers Inn, would really appreciate that.
Regards
Jan
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Re the london apprentice. William George Bosley was a direct decendent of mine. My grandmother was born in the pub Florence Edith Bosley in circa 1895
I also have a photo of her with her mother outside the Cock in n at Shaw when very young. Her parents were landlords there a few years later.
I will send photos if you wish and also of Old Dog at Shaw. My grandmother lived at Shaw fields which is where my father was born. She married a Welch. My father was Dennis. I have a sort of family genealogy as well
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Hi,
Good to hear from you, would very much like to see photos, and also of the Old Dog at Shaw, and particularly any family genealogy.
Maybe require to go to personal message
jan
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Newbury Chap,
Have you got records of licensees of London Apprentice Inn for the period around 1895. I think the Challis family had it for a while from memory on another posting.
Have you got the date also that Charles New (Snr) took over the license, and then he handed over to his son Charles Edmund New before he in turn transferred the license to William George Bosley
janjim
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Hi
If you did not receive attachements I will send by personal email though I do not yet know how to as new to site. I also have pictures of Williams marriage to Aunt Nell
Yours
Paul
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Have you got records of licensees of London Apprentice Inn for the period around 1895. I think the Challis family had it for a while from memory on another posting.
The Challis family (in turn Daniel, Mary, Daniel & Emily) held the license from the 1840s (first record I have is from 1847) until 1902ish. Charles New took the license after them (I haven't got the exact date - yet).
Have you got the date also that Charles New (Snr) took over the license, and then he handed over to his son Charles Edmund New before he in turn transferred the license to William George Bosley
You haven't got the spirit of licensing quite right - in most cases landlords were selected by the brewer who owned or leased the pub (the London Apprentice was owned by Newbury Corporation until the 1890s). Transfers were done by application (often by the brewer's solicitor) to the licensing justices at one of half a dozen special courts through the year. Outgoing landlords had no ability to transfer licenses but they would (I think) get something from the incoming landlord for the goodwill and fixtures and fittings that did not belong to the brewery.
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Hi
If you did not receive attachements I will send by personal email though I do not yet know how to as new to site. I also have pictures of Williams marriage to Aunt Nell
Yours
Paul
No sign of attached images - I too would love to see them.
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Thanks for the info once again.
Yes I too am looking forward to receiving attachments from flyingpig, obviously new to this site, so having trouble attaching documents.
I must admit it took me a while too, when I first got on to Rootschat, it has been a great site, have found so much information through this, and everyone is so helpful.
janjim
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Hi Jan,
Came across another refernce to a New - William New. Is seems he was landlord of the Chequer or White House or Angel or Lord Craven Arms. The name comes from a list of former landlords (and former names) of this inn given in an abstract of title dated 1879. I suspect Wm New would have been resident mid to late C18th. The Chequer is now part of The Chequers in Oxford St, Newbury (in Speenhamland so only in Newbury since 1878).
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Newbury Chap,
Thanks for this information once again, I'm not sure of our which member of the New family it would be there, but obviously related somehow.
janjim
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Mention of Speenhamland brought to mind delightful reminiscences of the Duke of Beaufort in 'Driving', first published in 1890, and of 'Old Mrs Botham' of The Pelican, Speenhamland, who horsed the York House coach for a couple of stages and provided 'cherry brandy noted for its excellence all over the country'.
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Sadly Mrs Botham went bankrupt after the railways killed the coaching trade. She ended her days in the almshouses at Froxfield and was buried at Speen.
She ran the George & Pelican - usually known just as the Pelican - taking over when her husband died. This is the best known of Newbury's many coaching inns - and the subject of the epigram reputedly written by a famous actor of the day, James Quinn:
The famous in at Speenhamland that stands below the hill,
may well be called the Pelican for its enormous bill.
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Another New family snippet.
Edmund New (formerly of the Two Brewers) took on the license of the New Market (aka Newmarket) Inn for a few months in 1908. The landlord, James Dewe had died and Edmund was his executor (or one of them) - in order to maintain and maximise the value of the license for Dewe's estate the executors needed a temporary landlord while they and the owners (Strange's Brewery) settled on a new licensee to take on the pub and cough up for Dewe's fixtures, fittings, etc.
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Thanks for this bit of New Information once again, its just great, any information that you are able to provide is most gratefully accepted.
In fact this Edmund New who had the Two Brewers Inn and as well the Newmarket Inn , sadly lost his son Edmund Walter New in the railway accident on Good Friday 14th April, 1898 when the young fellow was 13 years of age. It was through this article in the newspaper Newbury Weekly News, that I managed to make contact with some of the descendants still living in Newbury.
Jan
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In fact this Edmund New who had the Two Brewers Inn
A great photo of the Two Brewers has just been posted on a local forum:
http://www.newbury.net/forum/index.pl?m-1238243925/s-new/
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Thanks once again, great photograph, better than others I have.
regards
Jan
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A great photo of the Two Brewers has just been posted on a local forum:
http://www.newbury.net/forum/index.pl?m-1238243925/s-new/
I was going to mention the Newbury.net Forum, where there is a good deal of discussion about old pubs, often illustrated with old photos. There was a splendid picture of the original Old London Apprentice posted there nearly 2 years ago at:
http://www.newbury.net/forum/index.pl?m-1179842675/s-0/
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I was going to mention the Newbury.net Forum, where there is a good deal of discussion about old pubs, often illustrated with old photos. There was a splendid picture of the original Old London Apprentice posted there nearly 2 years ago at:
http://www.newbury.net/forum/index.pl?m-1179842675/s-0/
Lots of pub pictures there, several put up in the last few days - including the Newmarket (aka New Market) Inn that janjam will be interested to see as it was run by one of her lot for a few months.
http://www.newbury.net/forum/index.pl?m-1238314269/
Been meaning to contact you Mr B - I am sure you have plenty to add to my knowledge of more recent years if you're willing.
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There are a number of my ancestors who have been licensees of various pubs in Newbury, including the Two Brewers as mentioned in your original message. Emily Langfield/Atherton (married to Edmund New) was publican of the Two Brewers in the late 1880's/early 1890's.
Her sister, Kate Atherton was married to James Dew who was licensee of the Newmarket Inn between early 1890's and his death in 1908. It seems that on his death his brother in law Edmund New took over temporarily as licensee of this pub.
Would be really interested in any further information you have about either of these pubs, in particular the Two Brewers which I seem to be unable to find much information about.
Thanks
Ruth
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Hello Ruth - welcome to Rootschat.
The Two Brewers was in West Mills, opposite the Town Mill. It was owned by the West Mills Brewery (over time Slocock's, Hawkins & Canning, T E Hawkins, Hawkins & Parfitt's South Berks Brewery, H & G Simonds). The earliest record I have is from 1761.
Sadly the pictures on newbury.net that I and Brewmaster referenced earlier in this thread are no longer available.
http://www.francisfrith.com/newbury,berkshire/photos/the-church-from-west-mills-c1955_N61020/ shows the Two Brewers on the right. I suspect their dating of 1955 is a little early as there is no sign of the Two Brewers' inn sign that hung on the pub until it closed in late 1955.
The Two Brewers went at a time of pub rationalisation; Reading brewers H & G Simonds had bought three of the four Newbury breweries to survive WWI and hence owned almost all the pubs in town. Some of these were still running under beerhouse licences. The licensing magistrates were loath to convert beerhouse licences to full licences so Simonds did a deal whereby they closed four fully licensed houses and transferred the full licenses to four beerhouses which they felt had a better future. So the Two Brewers went and the Castle in Northbrook St got a full licence. Ironically it was only a few years later that all surviving beerhouses were granted full licences as the magistrates had had a change of heart and no longer worried about maintaining the old restrictions.
Thanks for giving the relationship between Dew and New - I suspected something of the kind after finding a description of Dew's funeral a couple of weeks ago (see image).
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Many thanks newburychap for all the info. Really interesting - the NWN obit shows my great grandfather (SJ Stillman) as attending James Dew's funeral!
Shame about the pics of the Two Brewers - I had already tried to follow the link from earlier messages and had no luck.
My ancestor William Turner (from another branch of the family!) was licensee at the Red House from about 1881 - 1894. He then kept the Wellington Arms from 1894 - 1896. It must run in the family!
Ruth
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I think you'll find that William Turner moved from the Red House to the Wellington Arms in 1892 - both pubs are still with us today unlike many of their contemporaries.
If you have Stillman connections perhaps you can shed some light on William Stillman, shoemaker and beer seller at the Duke's Head, 1851-54 (ish). This was a beer shop or beer house somewhere not too far from the current Gun and Old Bell pubs on the edge of Wash Common. I would love to find any more information that might help me work out exactly where it was.
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Well just another question in regard to the New family, we have found a Charles New b. 1835 (Uncle of Charles New who ran the Old London Apprentice Inn for a period of time)as living at Jack of Newbury in 1861 census with his wife Mary and 2 children.
Are you able to tell me whether Jack of Newbury was a Pub or maybe it was some other accomodation place.
Regards
Jan
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They were in Jack of Newbury Street, as I extracted for you. If they had been at the pub one of the occupants would have been identified as a victualler or variant trade.
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Dee-jay,
My apology dee-jay, yes I realize that one of them may have been a victualler in that case,
but there are several of my New family members involved in the pubs in Newbury, the Two Brewers, London Apprentice, Swan Inn, etc. etc. thought there might have been a connection.
Not aware of a street named Jack of Newbury Street.
jan
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Hi Newburychap
My grandmother lived at the Blue Boar inn at North Health Newbury My grandmother name was Mary Dix born 1902 at Strealey Berkshire. I know that she was given to a aunt and uncle to bring up and that in 1911 she was living with Thomas Henry Painton born 1866. Thomas was the landlord o the Blue Boar in 1911,also living with Thomas was his wife Annie born 1867 and a son John born 1897. In 1911 my grandmother was know as Mary Painton, but when she married in 1923 she was know as Mary Dix.
Sandy
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Are you able to tell me whether Jack of Newbury was a Pub or maybe it was some other accomodation place.
The Jack of Newbury or simply The Jack Hotel was a large establishment in Northbrook St. It is quite possible that it was a large part of Jack of Newbury's house. Jack was a very wealthy clothier of the early to mic C16th, that Henry VIII visited him is an indication of his status. Eventually retired to the country - he bought Bucklebury, Thatcham, and East Lockinge when the lands of Reading and Abingdon Abbeys were sold off.
The hotel was demolished ca1935 and the current Marks & Spencer shop built on the site.
Alleys ran along either side between Northbrook St and The Marsh (now Victoria Park). The one to the south was Jack Street (perhaps called Jack of Newbury Street at some time). Jack St's houses were demolished in the 1960s (ish) - it is now part of a huge building site for a new shopping centre.
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My grandmother lived at the Blue Boar inn at North Health ...
Hi Sandra,
North Heath is in Chieveley and hence outside of my study area (the current boundaries of Newbury) - but it hasn't stopped me drinking there in the past. However, I haven't been since it changed to The Crab at Chieveley some years ago. The blue boar (a statue reputedly abandoned there by one of the Parliamentary army heading for the 2nd Battle of Newbury in 1644) is still there.
I'll file your info in case I extend the study in the future - thanks.
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Hi
Just found your thread and wonder if you'd know whether The Catherine Wheel was a coaching inn in 1811?
The landlord of the pub, John Salter, was a bondsman on the marriage licence of my ancestor John Butcher who was apparently a Coach Bookee (as described on the licence) in Thatcham and I am looking for a link to possibly pin John Butcher down a bit more!
Thanks
Sue
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Just found your thread and wonder if you'd know whether The Catherine Wheel was a coaching inn in 1811?
The Catherine Wheel was probably more of a carters' inn than a coaching one - it certainly wasn't among the main inns of the town. It is quite possible that the landlord had a few horses or even a small coach to let but I haven't found any reference to a coach service using it as their Newbury stop.
The landlord of the pub, John Salter, was a bondsman on the marriage licence of my ancestor John Butcher who was apparently a Coach Bookee (as described on the licence) in Thatcham and I am looking for a link to possibly pin John Butcher down a bit more!
Coach Bookee is a term I haven't come across before - Salter is landlord from the 1790s to the 1820s (thought it could have been two John Salters in succession). Can you tell me where the marriage licence can be found, I collect all references to Newbury pubs and landlords that I can find.
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Going back to the first part of this Old Pubs site, with regard to the Old London Apprentice Inn, are you able to provide the approximate date that this Pub was built please?
Jan
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Coach Bookee is a term I haven't come across before - Salter is landlord from the 1790s to the 1820s (thought it could have been two John Salters in succession). Can you tell me where the marriage licence can be found, I collect all references to Newbury pubs and landlords that I can find.
The licence can be found on Sarum Marriage Licence Bonds from The Wiltshire FHS but also available on Find My Past. Details are Groom -James Butcher of Thatcham. Bride - Martha Green of Thatcham, 28 Dec 1811. John Salter is described as publican Newbury and I found the info re The Catherine Wheel from the 1815 Newbury census. (Just noticed that I put the wrong name for my ancestor in my previous posts, it's definitely James! Too many James and John Butchers in my tree....)
If the inn wasn't a coaching stop the relationship between James Butcher and John Salter was probably more personal than business. Friends or relatives I wonder!
Thanks for your help.
Sue
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The licence can be found on Sarum Marriage Licence Bonds from The Wiltshire FHS but also available on Find My Past. Details are Groom -James Butcher of Thatcham. Bride - Martha Green of Thatcham, 28 Dec 1811.
Thanks - I couldn't find John Butcher but I can now see James.
If the inn wasn't a coaching stop the relationship between James Butcher and John Salter was probably more personal than business. Friends or relatives I wonder!
I doubt that a publican would stand bond for an occasional customer - remember it is his money that is at risk! The relationship is more likely to be personal.
On the other topic - the Old London Apprentice was built in 1935/6.
But I suspect you mean the London Apprentice (only very occasionally prefixed with Old before it was closed) which stood at the junction of Newtown Road and Old Newtown Road. I'm afraid I cannot say when it was built - the earliest reference I have is from 1756. The name must be post-1643 (when the London Apprentices performed their heroics at the 1st Battle of Newbury), but 1643-1756 is probably not that much use to you as a build date! It was owned by Newbury Corporation from before 1756 until 1898 when they sold it to the Newbury Brewery Co. It closed in 1935 and its licence was transferred to the new Old London Apprentice in Hambridge Road.
I may learn more when I have time to go through the Corporation minute books more thoroughly than I have to date.
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Newbury chap,
Thanks for this information, my Father used to refer to the Inn as the Old London Apprentice, in fact 1911 census information definitely shows my grandparents and family address as the "Old London Apprentice"
jan
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Newbury chap,
Thanks for this information, my Father used to refer to the Inn as the Old London Apprentice, in fact 1911 census information definitely shows my grandparents and family address as the "Old London Apprentice"
The 'Old' prefix happens from time to time, for instance in my database of directory and census entries I have it used 15 times - and 73 entries without. Often two entries from the same year will have one with the old and one without. Whereas the new pub is always the Old London Apprentice.
I haven't yet found a deed or other document generated by the owners (Newbury Corporation or Newbury Brewery Co) where the 'old' is used.
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If anyone is interested I'm giving a talk on the history of pubs in Newbury tomorrow night (see www.ndfc.org.uk for details) - all welcome.
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Would love to be there, bit too far to travel !! Any feedback would be wonderful
jan
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Hi Newbury Chap,
You mention way back in your postings, about a postcard showing the Old London Apprentice in context with the St. Johns Church. Wondering if you managed to get a copy of this at all?
Have recently found more information in regard to our New family, of a Jane Wootton marrying Robert Reeves Randall in 1845 at Speen. Daniel Challis seems to be involved with the New
family, as his name is mentioned even in 1845.
Interesting, as the Challis family were licensees of the Inn.
You mention previously as well the one of Daniel Challis's descendants works in the Museum,
wondering if they have much family history to share, that is if you know of it.
jan
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Hi Jan,
Picked up the postcard on ebay - there are others, notably an uncoloured version, I'm not convinced the colorist ever saw the real scene!
My Challis contact no longer works at the museum (which is closed for the next few years). I saw her a month or so back, for the first time in over a year. I will see if I can find an email address for her (I suspect my wife will have it) and point her at this thread so she can get in touch if she's so inclined. I think she's descended from Joseph Challis, resident at the Hand & Heart in 1861. Probably fits in with a Daniel or two somewhere.
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Thanks so much for this copy of the postcard, thinking that maybe this photo would have been
taken around the time my grandparents ran this Inn, maybe a little later, but it's great. I've got a real appreciation of where the Inn would have been sited,especially after having visited this area recently.
Interesting the Museum is now closed, they were packing up to move when I was there, didn't realize it meant closure.
jan
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Hi JanJim
I am the Challis contact that Newburychap was speaking of. I haven't looked at my family history file for a while due to other commitments however am happy to assist where I can.
I am connected to Daniel and Elizabeth Challis of Newbury who had three children as far as I have found so far. Jane, Daniel and Joseph. I am descended from the son Joseph who moved his family to Wokingham around 1868. In 1845 Daniel Snr would have been 64 and Daniel Jnr 24. Daniel Jnr and his wife Mary are listed on the 1851 Census at Bartholomew Street, his occupation being Victualler. In 1861 they are listed at The "City" London Apprentice Inn as Liscensed Victualler. Daniel Jnr dies in 1870 and his wife Mary continues to run the Public House with the help of a servant until she herself dies in 1893. Daniel Jnr and Mary had a son Daniel, along with other offspring and it would appear this Daniel and his wife Emily continue. In 1901 Emily is listed as the Liscensed Victualler with their daughter after this Daniel dies in 1900. I have not looked into why she discontinued at the London Apprentice, it may be that with a young child she re-married.
The surname New does ring a bell for some reason but a connection does not immediately spring to mind. Would be interested to discover how things fit together and how he springs up in your research.
Regards
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Hi Kenike,
This is all very interesting, thanks for all of this information. It is just that after I got this marriage certificate of Jane Wootton who married a Randall in 1845 at Speen, I discovered that Daniel Challis was one of the witnesses to the marriage, as was Lucy New (who I would imagine was Jane's sister). I would imagine this Daniel Challis would be Daniel Challis Junior. We have discovered that Jane Wootton was illegitimate daughter of Lucy Wootton who later married Daniel New at Reading in 1826.
Jane is shown as a New in census information of 1841, which was to be expected in those days.
I just felt that maybe there might have been Challis family members that married into the New family, however I will do some more researching in that regard. Our New family members took over as Licensees of the London Apprentice Inn from the Challis family around 1903. The two families were obviously intertwined from way back from 1845 anyway.
Thanks for your assistance anyway, and I will get back to you if I find any more info.
jan
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Hello - I am researching 2 family breweries in Newbury/Speenhamland from the mid 1800's to the mid 1930's.
My great great uncle George Adnams was a brewmaster at the G & A Brewery - possibly on Oxford Street. His brother, my great great grandfather James Adnams was a brewmaster at the James and Son, (Eagle Brewery?) Speenhamland Newbury, and his son, my great grandfather Francis Havell Adnams was also a brewmaster at the same brewery until his death in 1918. I have found a record of acquisition for the Eagle Brewery by H.and G. Simonds in 1936 but am looking for any information of the brewery during the time of ownership of my great grandfather and great great grandfather and their families.
We have little information and can find no records (so far) for the G & A Brewery - 2 of George's sons left that brewery and went to Southwold to start Adnams Brewery, where it continues today. Although we know there are photos of the Steam Dray wagon from G & A in the 1920's we have no other information of the G & A brewery. If you or anyone can provide us with history it would be most appreciated.
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Hello - I am researching 2 family breweries in Newbury/Speenhamland from the mid 1800's to the mid 1930's.
My great great uncle George Adnams was a brewmaster at the G & A Brewery - possibly on Oxford Street. His brother, my great great grandfather James Adnams was a brewmaster at the James and Son, (Eagle Brewery?) Speenhamland Newbury, and his son, my great grandfather Francis Havell Adnams was also a brewmaster at the same brewery until his death in 1918. I have found a record of acquisition for the Eagle Brewery by H.and G. Simonds in 1936 but am looking for any information of the brewery during the time of ownership of my great grandfather and great great grandfather and their families.
We have little information and can find no records (so far) for the G & A Brewery - 2 of George's sons left that brewery and went to Southwold to start Adnams Brewery, where it continues today. Although we know there are photos of the Steam Dray wagon from G & A in the 1920's we have no other information of the G & A brewery. If you or anyone can provide us with history it would be most appreciated.
I don't know where you are getting your information from but ...
James Adnams took over the Eagle Brewery in the 1850s, at first in partnership with a Wells (probably Job Wells), then alone. In time (1878?) the brewery became James Adnams & Sons, the name it kept until it was sold to H & G Simonds in 1936. James was succeeded by his son Francis Havell Adnams, who died fairly young following a riding accident (in Feb 1900, not 1918). His son, Frank Mason Adnams took over until the sale to Simonds. Over the years they were able to buy the brewery (which they had previously leased) and the rest of the site, which is fronted by 2 Oxford Street and 24 & 26 The Broadway, both in Speenhamland (part of Newbury but not in the Borough until 1878).
I would be very interested in the picture of the steam dray - but there was no G&A Brewery in Newbury.
George and Ernest Adnams were James' nephews and are the source of the Adnams name in Southwold - but they didn't start the brewery, which was a going concern before they bought it. The story is that it was really Ernest who ran the brewery while George enjoyed life - until he was eaten by a crocodile while travelling in Egypt.
I did a little work on connecting George and Ernest to James, but hadn't realised their father (James' elder brother, George) was involved in the brewery - I have him as a land steward in Aldermaston (1851 & 1861), a brush manufacturer in Witham, Essex (1871), a farmer in Witham (1881), a house agent and farmer in Witham (1891). If he did get involved in brewing it would presumably have been in the 1860s? What information do you have on this brewery career? He and James were sons of John Adnams, a Thatcham farmer.
The picture is of Frank Mason Adnams (right) and William Garrett outside Hunts Bar, 26 The Broadway (Garrett was the manager).
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Thank you so much for the photo and information regarding Adnams family breweries in Newbury/Speenhamland. Sorry on the clerical error regarding the death of my great grandfather - yes indeed 1900.
All the information we have on these family breweries is mainly by verbal history. We were told that the other brewery in Newbury owned/operated by George was G & A Adnams Brewery. I will try to see if I can garner any more info.
If I am able to obtain a copy of the photo of the steam dray, I will scan a copy of the photo for you and attach to another message down the road. Thanks once again.
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All the information we have on these family breweries is mainly by verbal history. We were told that the other brewery in Newbury owned/operated by George was G & A Adnams Brewery. I will try to see if I can garner any more info.
I can find no sign of a G&A Adnams Brewery - though it is always possible that there was a brewery that lasted only a year or two and never made it into any of the documentary sources (trade directories, censuses, rate books, etc).
In his survey of C19th Berkshire Breweries, Kenneth Goodley documents 119 breweries - but the only Adnams are at the Eagle/Speenhamland Brewery of Adnams & Wells, James Adnams, James Adnams & Sons. He missed a couple of minor Newbury breweries (though he found them by the time he wrote his Bygone Breweries of Newbury), and there is the odd error, but it is a pretty comprehensive work.
Of course the Southwold Brewery would have been G&E Adnams when George & Ernest bought it in 1872.
If I am able to obtain a copy of the photo of the steam dray, I will scan a copy of the photo for you and attach to another message down the road. Thanks once again.
That would be great - or PM me when (if) you get it and I will let you have my email address so you could send at a higher resolution.
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Newbury Chap,
After all your research into the Newbury Inns etc., recently I've had contact with a family member who is a descendant of Albert Edward New who married Fanny Elizabeth Towsend Wheeler.
We believe that the Wheeler family were Licensees of another Inn in Newbury.
Wonder if you are able to let me know which Pub it would have been.
Cheers
Jan
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There are plenty to choose from:
Rose & Crown, Drummer, White Horse Cellars, Kings Coffee House, Cross Keys, Grapes, Vine, Bacon Arms.
All run by a Wheeler at some point - which specific Wheeler are you looking at?
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Seems that this Wheeler family were well and truly involved in the brewery trade!
The Licensee I would be looking for would be David Townsend Wheeler, his wife was Elizabeth Wheeler and his daughter Fanny Elizabeth Townsend Wheeler.
Fanny was born 1879, so may give you a clue on the approximate years. We believe it was Fanny's parents that were Licensees
Cheers
Jan
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Hello Jan,
The censuses put David and Elizabeth as follows:-
1881 Address: Waterloo Place, Newbury
1891 Address: The Vine Inn, Pembroke Road, Newbury
1901 Address: 40, North Brook Street, Newbury
1911 Address: Rose and Crown Northcroft Lane Newbury
Vicwinann
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Hi Vicwinann,
Thank you so much, Newbury Chap may have more information to provide on the years that
they were Licensees of those two Inns.
Jan
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David Wheeler was landlord of the Grapes and the Rose & Crown.
For some reason the Grapes was given as the Vine in 1891 - whereas the 'real' Vine was being run by John Gibbs in 1891 - until John Wheeler took it on in 1892.
The Grapes (1891 is the only time I have found it under any other name) was a backstreet beerhouse in what became Pembroke Road but earlier was Red Lion Yard or Rose & Thistle Yard (the name changing with the pub at the Northbrook St entrance to the yard). David Wheeler was there from Sep 1887 to December 1898 when he moved on to the Rose & Crown. The Grapes was closed by the licensing magistrates in 1912.
The Rose & Crown was a better option, but still a back street pub. It was, however, a proper pub, fully licensed and had been around for at least a couple of hundred years before David Wheeler arrived in 1898. It also outlasted the Grapes, lasting until 1971 - there are still people around who remember it and mutter about the developers who knocked it down almost overnight as moves were afoot to get it protected by getting it listed.
I don't have the precise information as to when David Wheeler left the pub - but it was somewhen between 1913 and 1914.
It was intrigued to see he was at 40 Northbrook St in 1901 - as that was also a pub for many years (until ca1860), however I have him at the Rose & Crown in 1901 (RG13/1120/30 - Painter & Paperlayer & Publican) - the multiple occupations is typical of the landlord of pubs like the Grapes and Rose & Crown.
The most interesting thing to me is the Townsend in his name. The main Elizabeth Wheeler that has cropped up during my research was the daughter of John Townsend, and seems to have taken over management of his brewery when he died (1790s). Presumably David was a descendent - 100 years is a long time but to see the family go from running one of the two biggest breweries in the area to running a back street beerhouse is, dare I say it, sobering. I hadn't made this connection before (Wheeler is a common enough name). He was running a pub (Rose & Crown) owned by a distant cousin as the Somerset family who were running what had by this become the Newbury Brewery Co, were also related in some way to the Townsends.
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Thank you for all of this information. It is all so interesting with the connection of the New family to other Innkeepers in the district. Ellen New (sister to Charles New who had the London Apprentice Inn in the early 1900's) had the son Albert Leonard New, who married Fanny Elizabeth Townsend Wheeler (daughter of David Wheeler) We believe that Fanny Wheeler died in 1914 at the Cholsey Lunatic Asylum.
Her husband Albert New was also a Painter by trade, so this connects up with the 1901 census
where David Wheeler was living at 4 Northbrook Street, he being shown as being a Painter (multiple occupation). Our Charles New was also a Bricklayer, as was my Grandfather Charles Edmund New, both licensees of the London Apprentice. We believe they got their apprenticeships with Adeys of Reading,
I've still not been able to find any more information on the years that younger brother Walter New was the Licensee of the Swan Inn at Newtown, believed to be at some time in the early 1900's, despite various postings. I do know that descendants of this family still live in Newbury.
Have just been looking at the Dead Pubs website once again, I see a Daniel New was the Licensee of the Coach & Horses in Cheap Street in 1840. (You may have mentioned this to me previously) Whether it was our Daniel New or not, am not sure, maybe you might have more information on this person. Our Daniel married Lucy Wootton, they came from Ashbury originally, married in Reading, found them in 1841 census in Newbury, he was a Draper living in Wash Road, so may not be the same family as shown in the Licensee records.
Another question, if you don't mind me asking, we have another New family member that married William George Bosley. Yes we know that he took over the licence of the London Apprentice after my grandparents migrated to Australia. Somewhere along the line, we believe that one of the Bosley family members was Licensee of the Cock Inn in Shaw Road. Wonder if you have more details of this licence.
Jan
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It's a convoluted family tree full of licensees.
The first thing I need to clear up - you refer to David and Elizabeth - the licensee's wife was Fanny or Fanny E(lizabeth?) according to censues. If it is this Fanny who is committed to the Asylum it could explain why they left the Rose & Crown when they did. A quick look at the GRO indexes suggests that David died in 1917, is this the right guy?
The licensee of the Cock was George Bosley (1889 - 1895).
Another Bosley, Joseph, kept the Jolly Millers (London Road) and Robin Hood around the same period.
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Sorry about that, yes, David was married to Fanny Elizabeth (nee Hall), they married in 1878 at Newbury. No, it was their daughter Fanny Wheeler who married Albert Leonard New the Painter who died at Cholsey, Wallingford in 1914 when she was 38 years of age. Yes and it looks like her Father, David Townsend Wheeler died in 1917 at Newbury aged 61 years.
Thanks for that information on George Bosley, looks like our William George Bosley's Father.
Did you manage to find any more information on Daniel New as being the Licensee of the Coach & Horses Inn?
Have been looking at a couple of new books available for Newbury,, one called "Newbury Road by Road " by R.B. Tubb, do you recommend this as being a good asset for us with the New family at all? Just wondering how we go about getting a copy. Don't think you can buy on line.
Jan
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Hi janjim
not sure if you already have this,
Ex-OFHS transcripts for Fair Mile Hospital, Cholsey, Burials
30 Dec 1914 Fanny Elizabeth Townsend NEW, died Berks Asylum age 38
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Hi Paul,
Yes, I did have the year, but nothing else, very much appreciate that, thank you. Are you able to provide a copy of the transcript at all?
Regards
Jan
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Daniel New was landlord of the Coach & Horses 1839/40 - that's all I have.
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Hi Newbury Chap,
Thanks for that information once again, if he was only Landlord from approximately 1 - 2 years,
he then became a Draper by 1841 census.
Cheers
Jan
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Hi
Can sks tell me how to find out which brewery if any own the The Blue Boare Inn North Heath Newbury in 1911 when my grandmother was living there Mary Painton and also where to look for photos of the Blue Boare
Thank yoy Sandy
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Can sks tell me how to find out which brewery if any own the The Blue Boare Inn North Heath Newbury in 1911 when my grandmother was living there Mary Painton and also where to look for photos of the Blue Boare
Not come across it spelt that way before (usually Boar without the e). Not really my area of expertise as it's not in Newbury - strictly speaking North Heath is in Chieveley but I have also found the Blue Boar listed under Winterbourne.
Don't know about 1911, but in 1903 it was owned by Kerlin's Trustees (whoever they were), leased by E E Palmer (the Donnington brewery) and the landlord was Joseph Pearce. If you want 1911 data the Inland Revenue Valuation Office Field Books (TNA, IR58) will show ownership in 1911 give or take a year.
Pictures:
Recent - just use Google images - The Crab at Chieveley - several of pictures available - the name's changed but they've still got the blue boar. Alternatively there are a view pics on flicker eg http://www.flickr.com/photos/papazor/2428859345/
For an earlier view http://www.francisfrith.com/chieveley/photos/the-blue-boar-c1965_c443028/
And earlier: http://viewfinder.english-heritage.org.uk/gallery/450/AA0/AA090316.jpg
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Hi Newburychap
Thank you for yoyr time and the information Thank you Sandy