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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Abiam2 on Saturday 22 September 07 10:46 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I am sure this is a pretty impossible task even for Roots Chatters!
I had 3 aunts and uncles who emigrated to Australia they were:
Rose Dobson Born 1894 Maidenhead Berkshire. She did marry but I don't know his name they did not have children but adopted a daughter, Barbara. Possibly somewhere around Sydney.
Clara Dobson Born 1899 Maidenhead Berkshire. I have a photograph of Clara taken in 1921 by Gainsborough Studio of 213 Chapel Street, Prahran. That sounds as though it could be in Australia and she would have been 22. I know she trained as a nurse but whether in England or Australia I don't know.
I believe she married in Australia possibly to a Perc Hurren. But I don't know where they lived and I don't think they had children.
Alfred Leslie aka Les Born 1907 Maidenhead Berkshire. Married Mable Brant in 1932 in Berkshire and then emigrated to Adelaide? Thanks to the help of Dee and Jenn I have much more about his service in the Australian army. And I know they lived for many years in Torrens Road, Woodville, Adelaide. They did not have any children.
So, not much to go on! They did all die in Australia but when they left England I don't know.
I shall quite understand if there are no replies to this post!
Regards, Abiam
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Abiam, Can you tell us their parents? That could make locating the girls in particular a whole lot easier.
.....dee
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Hi
Here are two possible deaths on the SAGHS Gov Gazette database
Surname: HURREN
Given name(s): Clara
Source date: 14-9-1976
Surname: HURREN
Given name(s): Percy Walter
Source date: 5-9-1960
and I can only give you Percy's death reg as 1972 is the limit of the death records.
HURREN Percy Walter 5 Sep 1960 Status M Aged 65 Residence Woodville Place of Death Woodvile Ref: Hin H 912/5557
Cheers
Cando
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Hi Dee and Abiam
Based on the 1901 census when the family is living in Hitcham, Buckinghamshire, the parents are
Joseph Dobson 43 and Priscilla 37. Oldest child is 12, so may be able to find the marriage to get Priscilla's maiden name
Trish
PS I am hoping Abiam has the wrong age for Clara - she is given as 12 - born 1889. Rose is there - aged 7 which is correct. I will do a little more checking. This would make Clara 32 in the photo. There is a child born 1899 called Violet, but she wasn't born in Maidenhead, according to the census. Or else I have the wrong family!
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I had looked in Victoria for a marriage for Clara, but didn't think to check South Australia, Abiam and Cando.....
Percy Walter HURREN aged 29 single married 22 Nov 1923 Clara DOBSON aged 34 single at St Pauls Church Port Adelaide
Fathers: Charles HURREN & Joseph DOBSON
Ref: PtA 297/591
Trish....that makes more sense with the marriage record.
.....dee
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Thanks Dee - makes the census look better :) :)
Trish
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I am wondering if this could be Rose - I know the 1941 seems a little late ??
7303/1941 FOSTER John Stephen DOBSON Rose May SYDNEY
Cheers
Cando
Edit - forget above - wrong parents on death reg
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Clara was cremated at Centennial Park Cemetery. The online record gives the date of her death as 14 Sept 1976, her age as 87 years.
No record there for her husband or for Alfred Leslie Dobson or his wife Mabel.
http://www.centennialpark.org/
......dee
P.S. Cando....couldn't see a marriage to 1937 in South Australia for Rose.
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Hi Dee
Thought Rose possibly lived around Sydney but can't see anything in the NSW BDM - they all have wrong parents on the death registrations :(
Dee it is only a cremation record at Centennial Park - the ashes would have been taken - perhaps placed with Percy - Cheltenham Cemetery could be a possibility for the others.
Cheers
Cando
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Just so that you know, Abiam, Prahran is in Victoria.
And a search of the Victorian Death Index for anyone with a father Joseph Dobson brought up no one with a given name of Rose.
Pity Cheltenham Cemetery doesn't have an online index, Cando. :(
.....dee
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I've just posted a long message and it's not there! Will try later have to go now,
Thanks everyone, Abiam
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hello there
here is a link to Cheltenham Cemetery for headstone photos
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~deadsearch/cemetery_index.htm
regards Jenn
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Don't know if you want these details, Abian.....but Percy Walter Hurren was born in South Australia on 13 October 1894 at Birkenhead to Charles Hurren and Amy Catherine Emery. Ref: PtA 551/110
......dee
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You have all done so well! I couldn't get on board when you wanted Clara's parents and then it was done! Also apology about Clara's age finger slipped!
Miracles take a little longer? I can't see there will be one as you have so little to work with. But we live in hope.
Once again thank you all for your help sorting out Clara and Les. Rose maybe we'll find her one day,
Abiam
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I have posted a photo on the restoration board if anyone wants too see who you've been looking for! Clara in 1921.
Regards Abiam
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Abiam, if you decided to get the newspaper notices of the Hurrens, you never know, the names of the siblings and their partners may be mentioned in that, which might give a clue to Rose's husband. It may not of course....it might only contain given names.
I'll take a peek at your picture.....
......dee
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Hi Dee,
Clara didn't have any children, neither did Les and Rose had one adopted daughter. No one can say the Dobson's in Australia have helped over population ! Maybe it had something to do with having 10 siblings!!!
Glad you enjoyed seeing one of your 'customers',
regards, Abiam
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I've checked what Passenger lists are available for you, Abiam....but unfortunatley around the time they came, many passengers were listed as Miss R. Dobson or Miss C. Dobson.....and when there are more than 1, that makes it impossible to know which would be them.
......dee
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Hello there
So it would appear that Clara came to Oz first and then her brother Les came a bit later to South Australia after 1932 as well.
Now I wonder did the two sister come together?
Clara has her photo taken in 1921 in Victoria Did the photo have anthyning written on the back of it?
Then she married in 1923 in South Australia.
regard Jenn
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I had a look myself and discovered the impossibility of it all.
Another thought - my father was in the Merchant Navy (British) and I've been told jumped ship in Adelaide. Naughty man! Would that have resulted in court proceedings or would it have been a Navy affair? Strange how things come to mind - I always understood he stayed with Les and Mabel before returning home to England. But they didn't marry until 1932 in England and my Dad married in 1933 in England.... so how can that story be true unless Les was out there much earlier? Came back met Mabel and married! But I'm sure in those days people wouldn't have the money to afford to travel back to England and then back again.
Sorry, I've been thinking aloud. Aren't families strange and it's only since everyone's gone that I've become interested!
Oh well, you have helped me fill in a few dates and given me a further insight into some members of the family,
Best wishes,
Abiam
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Jenn,
I've sent an email attachment of the photograph to a Prahran photographer - a very long shot I know - just in case Gainsborough were well known and they might know of any records or something. It's called clutching at straws.
If you look at my last post you'll see that suddenly I'm not sure when Les went to Australia! And no there's nothing on the back.
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An Alfred Dobson did arrive in Australia on 27th July 1926 on board the Ballarat. He disembarked in Melbourne. That information is on the National Archives of Australia Passenger List.
However, there isn't any way of knowing if it was Alfred Leslie at this stage.
Shall keep digging around.....you never know......
.......dee
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Abian, just another thought that could help....Leslie appears to have been Alfred Leslie....I wonder if either of the girls had a second given name. There seems to have been quite a trend among those born around the 1870s onwards for a while to go by their second given name. I know my grandmother did....and so did all her siblings.
Two given names could help with sorting the Rose Dobsons that appear in the marriage records here.
......dee
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Could well be him he would have been about 19. Just the right time of life to get up and go! Was that an assisted passage do you know? I would think it was as the family were pretty poverty stricken I imagine. Living in a tiny terraced house with all those siblings - I think I would have gone.
And I imagine he would have found Australia The Big New Country and for some reason came back to England met M and married and then went back to settle. If that was the case then my Father must have stayed with him in digs somewhere.
It's a good hypothesis for 1 in the morning. I'm in Spain so we're an hour later than the UK.
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I have no idea what kind of passage, Abian. I only know the details it showed on the National Archives of Australia Index of Passengers. I wonder if we could find him on Ancestorsonboard.......I'll have a look. As I said, I shall keep looking through the day just in case something crops up.
Tis 8.30a.m. here ....time for my breakfast! :D
.....dee
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Have a nice breakfast! I'm just off to bed.
But before I go I've trawled the BMD and found a ROSE ELEANOR DOBSON born July qtr 1893 cookham. The right parish but a year earlier but that doesn't matter as her age only came from the census. Could well be her?
Abiam
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Abiam....and I have found the marriage of a Rose Eleanor Dobson in Victoria!
Rose Eleanor DOBSON married Percival Fredk THOMAS 1918
Ref: 435
I wonder....I just wonder......
.....dee
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Well, you can discount the Alfred Dobson who came to Australia in 1826 on board the Ballarat. A check of Ancestorsonboard revealed that he was an Alfred Henry Dobson aged 13 and was part of a family of Dobsons who went to Melbourne.
Back to the drawing board.....
....dee
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Pardon me - you had all that - I should learn to read!!
Trish
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I have found Percival Frederick Thomas's death in Victoria....but cannot find a death for Rose Eleanor there. I checked SA too.....but no sign that I can see.
Perhaps a check of NSW next...... :D
and that proved negative too! :(
.....dee
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I have found Percival Frederick Thomas's death in Victoria....but cannot find a death for Rose Eleanor there. I checked SA too.....but no sign that I can see.
Perhaps a check of NSW next...... :D
and that proved negative too! :(
.....dee
I tried the Ryerson index too Dee - just about to check the Brisbane cemeteries ;D (Edit: No joy)
Trish
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Annoyingly, Centennial Park Cemetery Index is down at the moment ....I wondered if maybe she was cremated there like sister Clara.......if indeed Rose Eleanor Thomas is the one we are looking for.......it might be worth Abian getting a digital image of that marriage certificate if really wanting to know about Rose. At least it would prove/disprove the marriage.....because I am sure the Birth reference would prove to be her. The combination Rose Eleanor Dobson would not be a common one and to get more than one for that year and place would be unusual.
.....dee
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Hello there
Dee my indexs are playing up at the moment was there 2 deaths for Percival Frederick Thomas at all? cause I think there was one on the NAA but he was 33 and had a wife Jennie
Now Abiam are you listed on Genes Reunited cause Clara and Rose are both there with a contact for a Jill
regards Jenn
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Jenn, there was only one death on the Victorian Index......
Percival Frederi THOMAS aged 78 died 1961 at CHEL
Parents: Samuel & Mary PALMER
Ref: 12342
.......dee
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Hi all
Dee I don't think this the your man as
Birth
THOMAS Percival Frederick 1883 Parents Samuel Divine and Mary PALMER at Wail, Vic Ref 6005
Marriage
THOMAS Percival Frederick
=
HODGES Jennie Serviciell McGibbon
1911 at Pimpinio, Vic Ref 4831
Wail and Pimpinio are in the Wimmera area in Victoria. May only be a coincidence but I would not ignore a birth and marriage in the same area. Probably need to see some certificates to be absolutely sure ;D
It was mentioned they may have lived around Sydney.
Cheers
Cando
Edit - Dee I checked the Centennial Park index earlier on for Rose - nil.
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So in that case, Cando, the Percival Frederick Thomas who married a Rose Eleanor Dobson (See message #26) must have died elsewhere too...... ???
.....dee
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Hi Dee -
Yes that is the way it looks .......to date. If only we had the name of the dau. We may have found a marriage reg.
Will have to put the lateral thinking cap on ;D
Cheers
Cando - from very windy and very warm N W Vic.
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This could be worthwhile doing.
It is a search service for Cheltenham cemeteries
http://www.focrc.org/locategrave.htm
Sue
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Sue, that looks like a great site, and one of which I was unaware. I have added that to my favourites! :D
It could certainly help Abiam.
.....dee
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Hi Sue
I also thank you for that link - pity they didn't have a database online. Add to my ever growing list of cemetery links.
Cheers
Cando
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Girls' (well I think you're all girls!)
What a busy night whilst I've been sleeping.
I woke up this am. and suddenly into my head TED RAYNER!!! I think this is Rose Eleanor's husband. I don't know where this came from but I feel sure that's who he was. I've heard nothing of either of them for over 30 years and suddenly the name came to me.
Yes that's me on Genes Reunited
I am ging to have another go here at BMD for him.
Shame about Les that looked quite hopeful,
Speak later, Abiam
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Just checked English marriages 1913 to 1918 Nothing
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Just wondering if there has been any joy with Rose Eleanor Dobson and Edward (Ted) Rayner's marriage. They say 'no news is good news'. she says hopefully,
Best wishes, Abiam
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Abian, I had already checked all the indexes available for any marriages of a Rose Dobson, and I am afraid that the only one that came up was that of a Rose Eleanor Dobson to the Percival Frederick Thomas. I don't think there is much more we can do unless you happen to get some more information from elsewhere. :-\ Keep us posted if you do......
.......dee
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Hi Dee,
Shame about Rose and Ted but many, many thanks for everything else. My tree now has a few more twigs! Without you I had only the knowledge that the 3 went to Australia, married and one joined the army. Now I know a lot more and 2 out of 3 aint bad! In fact it's very good,
thank you and cando, Sue, Jenn and Trish
:) :) :) :) :)
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Dee and everyone who tried to help!
I have found Rose Dobson - she sailed from Tilbury aboard the Indrapura to Melbourne on the 14th October 1913 and was aged 21.
I found her through Find my Past who have just released their latest phase. I am delighted and thought you might like to know.
I am so pleased as I had given her up for dead - excuse the pun!
Very best wishes to you all,
Abiam
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And on the unassisted to victoria list
DOBSON R MISS 21 NOV 1913 INDRAPURA B 885 018
You can check who else was onboard
http://proarchives.imagineering.com.au/index_search.asp?searchid=23
Trish
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I had seen that entry, Trish....but couldn't be sure....great that you have let us know about the Findmypast entry, Adian. Thanks for that.
.....dee
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There is a 27 year old Miss B Rayner on board the Indrapura in 1913 - Wonder if she is related to the missing Ted Rayner?
Trish
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The continuing saga of Rose Eleanor Dobson.....
Rose born 1893 Maidenhead England. (Ref 2c 425)
Sailed to Australia 1913 from Tilbury London to Melbourne.
Percival Frederick Thomas born 1883 in Wail Victoria (Ref 6005)
Married Jenny Serviciell McGibbon Hodges 1911 in Pimpinio Victoria (Ref 4831)
Something occured between 1911 and 1918
Because
Rose married Percival F Thomas in 1918 (Ref 435)
Something else occured between 1918 and 1929
Because
Rose E Thomas married Ted Rainer in 1929 Windsor England (Ref 2c 830)
then she and 2nd husband left for Australia with adopted daughter London to Adelaide in 1939
Ted died in 1978 in South Australia
I think I've got it down correctly and I'm really thrilled with the results,
Thank you all you Aussie experts especially Dee for being so patient,
Abiam
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That's great Abiam......glad to have been of help. :D
.....dee
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Hi Abiam
Sorry to throw a spannr in the works - I repeat I do not think this Percival Frederick THOMAS is your man.
Hi all
Dee I don't think this the your man as
Birth
THOMAS Percival Frederick 1883 Parents Samuel Divine and Mary PALMER at Wail, Vic Ref 6005
Marriage
THOMAS Percival Frederick
=
HODGES Jennie Serviciell McGibbon
1911 at Pimpinio, Vic Ref 4831
Wail and Pimpinio are in the Wimmera area in Victoria. May only be a coincidence but I would not ignore a birth and marriage in the same area. Probably need to see some certificates to be absolutely sure ;D
It was mentioned they may have lived around Sydney.
Cheers
Cando
Edit - Dee I checked the Centennial Park index earlier on for Rose - nil.
Here is the above Percival Frederick THOMAS son of Samuel THOMAS and Mary PALMER death registration in 1961 aged 78 at Cheltenham, Victoria Ref 12342.
There are obviously two Percival Frederick THOMAS. I would advise purchasing the image of the 1918 marriage of Rose Eleanor DOBSON.
Cheers
Cando
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Oh dear!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I thought the first wife could have died?
Rose could have divorced?
He could have been a very unlucky man?
What is the easiest way to get a copy of the Rose/Percival 1918 marriage?
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Abiam,
you can go the following website and download digital images of Victorian BMD certificates for about 17.50 each.
http://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/home
The details you will need are......
Rose Eleanor DOBSON Marriage Percival Fredk THOMAS 1918 Reg N0 435
That will prove it one way or the other, as Victorian certificates usually have lots of information on them.
......dee
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Hi
Sorry to post the above but as I could not find the death of Percival's wife, Jennie to 1985 I thought it better to let you know. Incidentally there were two births to this Percival and his wife Jennie.
As dee has said, you can purchase an image for $A17.50 online at
http://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/home
You have the year of reg 1918 and the ref 435. They only accept Visa or Mastercard. You can download the image immediately.
Good luck.
Cheers
cando
Just a thought - I wonder if she returned to England with her new husband after the marriage in 1918 - Just because they married in Australia doesn't mean he was born here.
Edit - couldn't be bothered altering this post - dee and I were obviously posting simultaneously
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Hi Abiam
If you don't wish to purchase the image you could email/search the following cemeteries to see if perhaps this Percival is buried alone or with his wife and her date of death. As he died at Cheltenham try this first -
Cheltenham Cemetery
http://www.bunurong.com.au/search
Brighton Cemetery
http://www.brightoncemetery.com/
Enquiry form on website
Springvale, St Kilda and Melbourne General
http://www.necropolis.com.au/ email contact on the website for enquiries
Good luck
Cheers
Cando
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Sorry I haven't read all of the posts on this thread but............
There is the death of..... Staff Sgt. P.F. THOMAS Army Medical Corps. 13/7/1961...age 78
Ref:-Transcripts of Memorial Inscriptions in the St.Kilda Cemetery and an Index of Names CD.
cheers,
Magoo
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Hi Mr Magoo ;D
Thank you for the info -
Would be so kind as to see if Percival's wife Jennie , whom he married in 1911, is named on the CD. I am unable to see her death up to 1985.
Trying to help Abiam - I think there are two Percival Frederick THOMAS's in the marriage indexes. I really threw a spanner in the works ;)
Cheers
Cando
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Hi Cando,
I have just tried to order the Mar. Cert. for R E Thomas 1918 and made a complete B.... .p of it! I sent an email explaining the problem - this has been returned as undeliverable! Twice.
The address I used is
vicbdm[at]justice.vic.gov.au
This is given on the Tax Invoice that I printed out.
Do you have another address I could use?
I need to make sure I get the right cert or try to cancel it!
Talk about the ups and downs of tracing your family tree I think I've just fallen out of my tree!!!
Abiam
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Abiam....I take it you have paid for it and weren't able to collect the image? Am I right?
....dee
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Yes, All my details went in and then it said wait and I waited and waited! Tried to go back and got a message saying to wait but nothing happened.
I think I have attached the details I have,
Abiam
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OK .....no problems....at least there shouldn't be.
You have 30 days to collect the image!
What you need to do is go back to
http://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/home#collect
and scroll down until you see the following.....
Collect images (uncertified certificates) purchased within the last 30 days and download them immediately to your printer or computer. You will need the Image Reference Number from your Tax Invoice.
Link to it, and enter your Image Reference Number from your Tax Invoice. See if you can go from there and let me know.
.....dee
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I did look for Jenni on the index as well but sadly no luck. Is Jenni definitely her correct birth name?
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Dee, sorry if I'm being thick but is it the Authorisation num.
or Receipt number? I haven't tried it yet - will await advice
A
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Your receipt should have an Image reference number on it but it doesn't show on your scan.
It should be above the part that says
"You are advised to keep a record of these details for future reference by one of the following....and it should appear on your receipt under Click here to collect your image(s) It will be quite a long string of digits on the end of a long blue link.
I'm not going anywhere.....so we'll just keep messaging.......
.....dee
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Thanks for your patience!
Does 10379552 look possible? I know i wrote it down during the transaction but can't remember if it was blue or a link!
I'll have a go anyway!
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Go for it......
....dee
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Same reply no images available for image collection number! Check and re-key.
Any ideas?
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Hi Abiam,
http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.asp?B=3002140&I=1&SE=1
The above link shows the Service Records for the Percival Frederick THOMAS that I confirmed in my previous post as being buried in the St.Kilda Cemetery. He is married to Jenni (sp) and they have 2 children.
Hope this helps,
Magoo
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Bother!
PM on the way......
.....dee
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Thanks Mr Magoo,
So they didn't divorce - how unfair of them! Must learn how to use the smiley's so folk know I'm only joking!
Abiam
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This message is for those who may have trawled through these posts and for those who have helped find the elusive ROSE ELEANOR DOBSON.
I hate reading posts and then the conclusions are missing as messages have become PMs for various reasons.
The Percival Frederick Thomas of Wail Victoria was not her husband and neither was P F Thomas of the Royal Medical Corps.
Rose married Percival Frederick Thomas of LONDON on the 26 January 1918 in Richmond Victoria. I have a death for him in England in 1928 in WINDSOR England. There is a little worry about this as I cannot prove they are one and the same. But coincidently Rose married again in 1929 to Edward George Rainer in WINDSOR. Again, we don't know if they were separated, divorced or maybe she just remarried very quickly. So she obviously came back to England sometime before 1929. And I am quite happy to leave it there.
To get the marriage info I had to buy a certificate from Victoria BDM which was not without difficulties but sorted with the help of Dee. This is one of the most beneficial certificates I have ever bought sorting nearly all my problems with Rose.
I am very appreciative of all the help I have received and Cando thanks for the spanner it made me decide to get the cert!
So now, apart from withdrawal symptons, I am very pleased and will now start on a relation with hopefully easier solutions.
Good luck with your searching,
Abiam
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deleted - sorry wrong thread
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Hi Abiam
So pleased that you eventually got the image sorted (and glad that you like our certificates). If I found the correct death in 1928 - listed as Percy F aged 35 this may be his birth - from FreeBDM
Births Dec 1892 Thomas Percy Frederick W.Ham 4a 117
Trish
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Hi Abiam
So pleased that my spanner throwing had a good result ;D ;D
Hope you new line of research goes smoothly.
Cheers
Cando