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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: rich23434565 on Tuesday 18 September 07 22:28 BST (UK)
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I cannot find anything online that seems to make any sense. My great-grandfather was killed in action on 2 July 1916. The CCWGC website states that he was a member of the Royal Field Artillery, "B" Battery, 189th Brigade. Would this be a Field Artillery Brigade? Rather than an Infantry Brigade? And what Division would it have been attached to in 1916?? A search for "189th Brigade" doesn't seem to come up with anything concrete. Please help :'(
Rich
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This from Highbrook Cemetary, Sussex.
'October 17th 1916 Bombardier Reginald BUCHANAN 189th Brigade Royal Field Artillery'.
I'm guessing that it was basically a Field Artillery unit made up to brigade status with the addition of several other units.
Richard
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Here's some nifty info on 241 Brigade RFA which you may find of interest.
http://www.denniscorbett.com/241.html
Richard
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>This from Highbrook Cemetary, Sussex.
Sorry: 'cemetery'
R
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Try this site.
www.1914-1918.net
Bob
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Hello Rich,
The NA { National Archives } hold the war diary for 189th Brigade RFA for May 1916 to April 1917, it might be worth ordering copies of around the dates you are interested in .
Regards
Alan
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http://www.1914-1918.net/whatartbrig.htm
This explains the layout of Arty Brigade.
Ady
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Hello Rich,
Just a bit more you.
189th Brigade RFA arrived in France 4/5/16 and composed of 4 batteries A,B,C,D .
Regards
Alan
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Thank you for that, Alan, and to everyone else who has replied too. So if the 189th arrived in France on 4th May 1916 would they have been assigned to a division? ???
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Yes Rich,
39th Division.
Alan
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http://www.1914-1918.net/rfa_units.htm
If you put 189 into Roman Numerals and scroll down the link
CLXXXIX=189
should take you to 41st DIV.
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http://www.1914-1918.net/rfa_units.htm
If you put 189 into Roman Numerals and scroll down the link
CLXXXIX=189
should take you to 41st DIV.
Much appreciated. :D
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Hello Rich ,
I apologise for my mistake , Ady is quite correct, it is 41st Div, I can't read my own writing !
Regards
Alan
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:D Don't worry. It certainly helped to set me off on the right track and now I've got a much clearer idea about what was going on in 1916.
Rich
Hello Rich ,
I apologise for my mistake , Ady is quite correct, it is 41st Div, I can't read my own writing !
Regards
Alan
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Spotted this little mention CLXXXIX (Hackney) Brigade. (War Raised Unit). Formed at Hackney in 1915 and consisted of A, B, C and D Batteries. In the 41st Division.
Where they part of the Diversionary attack, as I noticed Alfred is buried at The London Rifle Brigade Cemetery, south of Ploegsteert, in Belguim
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His SDGW info:
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Thanks for that Atom.
I know that Alfred Hayden enlisted at the Hackney Baths in 1915, which fits in with your information. Why would he have been made a sergeant though if he had no experience of the military? I've always assumed that he died in the early days of the Somme battles. He died on 02 July 1916, on the second day of the first battle. But I can't find the 41st Division being involved in the first onslaught.
And yes, he is buried in the London Rifle Brigade Cemetery near Ploegsteert. I didn't even know that he had a named grave until about two years ago. My grandfather, Alfred's son, knew nothing about his father other than the fact that he was in the RFA (which was the unit my grandfather entered after leaving the Duke of York's Military School). My grandfather was 4 when his father died and the only thing I have relating to that entire side of the family is a single photograph of Alfred Hayden (which I've used as my avatar), and I didn't even know that existed until my grandfather died in 2005! Alfred's widow would've been in possession of his medals and the death plaque but I have no idea what happened to them. My grandfather lost all contact with his mother from the 1950s onwards.
Rich
Spotted this little mention CLXXXIX (Hackney) Brigade. (War Raised Unit). Formed at Hackney in 1915 and consisted of A, B, C and D Batteries. In the 41st Division.
Where they part of the Diversionary attack, as I noticed Alfred is buried at The London Rifle Brigade Cemetery, south of Ploegsteert, in Belguim
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Thanks again Atom :D
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Hi Rich
Ref: your Gr Grandad being a Sergeant, he most probably was transferred to a War Raised unit to train and lead the new men, as presumably the majority would have no military experience.
There is the possibility that he was a pre-war Regular. Or, a member of the Territorial Force. Bearing in mind that your Grandfather was at the Duke of York's Military School, perhaps that might be a lead, in that they may well have your Grandfather's details (of admittance, family circumstances, et al.) So, it might be worth persuing the school to see if they hold archive.
Great avatar Rich, of a smart looking, handsome gentleman. Hope you continue your quest, and let us know how you get on. :) :D
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Have you seen Alfred's medal card and thought of downloading it:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01y6/
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Hello Rich ,
I still think its a good idea to send off for part of diary you are after frm NA, you can order online . The ref you need is WO 95/2625 for 189 Brigade RFA. I have just received a page of an extract about a Captain getting wouned for just 70p, plus postage of course.
Regards
Alan
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Hi :)
Yes I have the medal card that I photocopied at the National Archives (which I assume is the same as the download?!). It just says Alfred Hayden RFA, Sgt, L/40834 Died 2.7.16 and Victory: RFA /336B 47396.
Maybe he didn't enlist in 1915 after all but at an earlier time. The last pre-war occupation I have for him is 1912 when he was working as a railway wagon repairer. I don't know how much time was needed for someone to get to sergeant or whether, out of pure desperation, they just threw people in at the deep end. If he arrived in France at the beginning of May 1916 then he only had two months there before he was killed.
Researching anything related to the First World War is unrelievedly horrific, isn't it?
As far as the Duke of York school is concerned, as I understand it from my grandmother (who's still alive), after Alfred Hayden was killed his mother put her youngest son (my grandfather) into an orphanage and kept the younger daughter. When she remarried after the war she had my grandfather back but, as he didn't get on with one of the stepchildren, he was sent to the Duke of York school and then enrolled with the RA.
Alan: Yes, I agree with you about the brigade diary being a good area for research. I wish I'd looked at it when I was at the NA over the summer but I just ran out of time! I'll check out the online ordering system and see how I get on. How do you know which pages you need to look at?
bws
Rich
Have you seen Alfred's medal card and thought of downloading it:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01y6/
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Rich !
There is a book called First Day on the Somme by Martin Middlebrook ... that I have found to be a good source of information .... maybe you could try the library !!
You might also try the Great War Forum ... there are some expert men on there that may be able to take you a little bit further .... !
Annie :)
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Thanks for the pointers, Annie :D Much appreciated.
Rich !
There is a book called First Day on the Somme by Martin Middlebrook ... that I have found to be a good source of information .... maybe you could try the library !!
You might also try the Great War Forum ... there are some expert men on there that may be able to take you a little bit further .... !
Annie :)
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Hi Rich
It seems highly unlikely that your Gr Grandfather would become a Sergeant undertaking a responsible technical position within the space of a few months. Artillery men took a long while to train. You obviously have more of his details than we can imagine, and you say that you have already been to TNA, Kew. But, did lyou ook up any previous service for your Gr Grandfather, pre-WW1, even Boer War! You might be able to judge whether he was likely to have served there by his age, or any other Census info you might be privy to. I think another visit to Kew might prove worthwhile for you, and you could check out the war diaries whilst there.
Good luck
Anne
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Just a little update: I've started the process of ordering copies of the relevant pages from the 189th Brigade's war diary from TNA. :)
Many thanks to everyone who has helped contribute to this thread. :)
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Hello Rich,
Glad to hear it , good luck and keep us informed please .
Regards
Alan