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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: wdurham on Tuesday 18 September 07 14:27 BST (UK)
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Having followed all the links suggested in the resource section, I have at last tracked a Joseph James CORNHILL to the Mudgee area of NSW.
Joseph James Cornhill was born in qe Mar 1848 in Whitstable, son of Joseph Cornhill and his wife Sarah Edenden nee Dyason. His brother Wallace was also born in Whitstable about 1855.
Joseph married Hannah Darby (b about 1851 in Deal), in 1868 and according to the 1881 census they had four children:
Helen M aged 5
Joseph J aged 4
John Thomas aged 1 b qe Sep 1879
Agnes Elizabeth aged 2 (actually 2 months) b qe Mar 1881
I haven't found births for Helen or Joseph J.
They were living in Chapel Street, Deal, Kent in 1881 and Joseph Snr was an unemployed baker. The children were all born in London except Agnes, who was born in Deal.
John Thomas died in 1833 in Eastry district, which covers Deal.
The entire family then disappear altogether. They are not in the 1891 or 1901 census returns. There are no deaths for any of them and no marriages for the children, even when checked under various spellings of the name. So I suspected emigration as a family and eventually, in the NSW database on-line I found a marriage:
A Joseph James Cornhill married Ada M Rope in 1891 in Mudgee
and two deaths:
Joseph Cornhill died in 1909 Dubbo aged 63
Ada Cornhill, daughter of James A and Elizabeth, died in 1917 in Mudgee
Further checking showed that Mary A Rope was born to James and Elizabeth Rope in 1862 in Mudgee. Probably the same girl - Mary Ada or Ada Mary - she may have been baptised as Mary, but always used her second name. (I do myself!)
At first I disregarded this as a coincidence. But then I found this:
Wallace Cornhill died in 1902 in Gunnedah
Cornhill is not a common name if correctly spelled, when I found the death for Wallace as well as for Joseph James, I thought I had found "my" Joseph James. The age at death is at least one year out - he was born in early 1848 so would have been 61/62 during 1909 not 63.
However, I am beginning to think this might still be a coincidence, because I cannot trace the arrival of Joseph James and his family, nor of Wallace. The family must have moved to Australia after John Thomas's death in 1883, but before 1891.
I cannot find deaths for Hannah and the children, nor marriages for the children. I have searched under several variants of the surname without success, and in other states as well as NSW.
Does anyone have other ideas of where I might look? And is there likely to be more information on the marriage and death certificates which might help identify this Joseph James or Wallace as "mine"?
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Hi
A NSW marriage cert will give you age, birthplace, occupation, names of both parents of both parties to the marriage. A death cert will give you age, names of both parents, how long in the colony, where born, place of marriage and to whom, names of children (in the case of the death cert, this info comes from an informant, so the info depends on the accuracy of the informant's knowledge).
You could write to the Mudgee Historical Society, P.O. Box 217, Mudgee, NSW, 2850. They may have some information re the Cornhill family.
Diana
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Many thanks, Diana - those certificates are very informative!
I shall take the advice I have already found on Rootschat, and get transcriptions of the entries I have found. The marriage certificate in particular should provide a definite link - or not, as the case may be!
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Hi wdurham,
It will tell you what you like to know there and it depends on the informant there that gave the information. a Death will give if they was born over seas there as well.
Regards,
OzyBob
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Note that both the death certificates (Joseph and Wallace) do not contain parent names, so the informant(s) knew little about the history of the person who died. The marriage should contain parent names IF the person being married supplied same.
The naa gave a number of records containing the name Cornhill - Of interest is the service of Ernest Edward Rope - next of kin initially given as Ada Rope - then changed to Ada Cornhill (perhaps because whoever completed the form assumed the name Rope?). He appears to have spent some time in England on leave at the end of the War.
http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/recordsearch.aspx
search as a guest.
There are 3 children born 1884, 86 and 87 - mother given as Ada Rope - no father listed in the index. Death for Ernest Rope lists mother Ada & father James J
Trish
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Many thanks, Trish!
I had found the service record of Ernest Rope when I first looked at this last year on a general hunt for any Cornhills in Australia. It didn't occur to me to look for his death to find an indication of his parentage - you rarely find such info on a UK death cert for an adult. But as you say, there it is - father James J.
Not conclusive, of course, as the names have been reversed and the surname isn't in the index entry. But Joseph James was the son of another Joseph, so may have used his second name - just like Ada Mary, who is Mary A at birth but Ada M everywhere else.
So that narrows it down - Joseph James is likely to have been still in UK in 1883 when John Thomas Cornhill died, and Wallace too, when his wife and son died in 1883/4 - and both were in the 1881 UK census with their families. But they were in Australia by 1887 when Ernest was born.
Of Ada's other two children Lilla May married Alfred Turner, and her death index listing gives her parents as Arthur and Agnes May. As the death particulars were probably supplied by her husband, the Agnes May could be simple error or a bad memory, but Arthur is unlikely to be confused with Joseph or James. Susan died in infancy, with just her mother listed, so no further clue there.
So what I need to prove the link is the death cert or a transcript for Ernest, and perhaps his marriage cert as well for additional confirmation, the marriage cert for Joseph James and Ada and the marriage cert for Lilla and Alfred to see if her father's name really was Arthur.
Which still doesn't answer the question of how and when Joseph James - and almost certainly Wallace - came from the UK to Australia. Wallace is the clincher in many ways - only one Wallace Cornhill (plus his son who died in infancy) appears in the UK GRO indices and there is only one listed in the entire range of census returns. And only one Wallace on the IGI - the same one.
Never mind - if the certificates show that this IS my Joseph James, I may have to be content with simply noting that "Emigrated to Australia between 1883 and 1887".... :)
Thanks to everyone for the help!
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Hi'
Not sure if you know of this researcher looking at Ropes of Dubbo.
There is the marriage to Cornhill listed and some births, including Ernest E.
http://members.pcug.org.au/~cfield/distantf/FOUR8.htm
Perhaps it is your own website!
Sue
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Hi, Sue -
Thanks for the heads-up on this one.
It's interesting because it makes the distinction between Lilla May as the daughter of Ada, and Susan and Ernest as the children of Ada and Joseph James.
I may contact the family to see what their sources are - none are detailed on the website that I can find. If they have the certificates, then there may be more info available.
Regards
Wendy
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Yes,
It suggests the possibility of a liason for Mary Ada before the others were born.
But then again, the two of them [Mary Ada and Joseph] had children well before their marriage in 1891, so it could well be Joseph is father of all.
However the dates you give.. thinking Joseph would still be in UK... make fathering of Lila May Rope a bit short on the time scale and why would he not acknowledge her if she belonged to him. He had no trouble sharing his name with the next two!.
Sue
Sue
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Hi Wendy & Sue
I did wonder why the father's name is not on the birth certificate and I also wondered if perhaps they waited until 1891 to marry, as his wife in England may still have been living. Then why would the WW record have the mother as next of kin if Joseph/James was definitely the father? Then, perhaps he didn't want to indicate that his father had a different name - being illegitimate was not looked well upon in the early part of the 20th century. I think you are correct that some transcripts may help - but not guaranteed.
Looking for immigration - I just remembered the site for NSW unassisted
The indexing has not yet covered most of the times that would be applicable
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/shipdate.htm
You can do some indexing to help or manually search lots of records at State records - or perhaps simply wait it out - If they came unassisted to NSW, they should be in here somewhere. A current search gives a James Cornhill 1866, M Cornhill crew 1859 and Mr Cornhill 1856.
I'm not sure if the UK records (findmypast) cover the 1880s - someone will no doubt know about that.
Trish
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We have a connection to the Rope family through Margaret Beahan who married George Rope in 1853. George murdered his sister in law and was hanged in Mudgee gaol after helping to establish the new gallows. How Ironic! and I have checked our contacts to see if there is any additional information for Joseph James Cornhill but so far have only found his marriage listed to Mary Ada Rope.
The Rope family have been extensively researched by a large number of people, mainly stemming from their convict connection of Anthony Rope and Elizabeth Pulley who both arrived as convicts with the First Fleet in 1788.
There are still a few more things that I haven't looked at yet so will post something if I come across it.
Cazay
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Hi, Trish & Sue -
The reason Joseph James wasn't Ernest's next of kin is that he died in 1909. ;D
The assumption that Joseph James was still in England in 1883 is not proven. The death of his little boy could have happened in Deal no matter where Joseph was. But I believe he and Wallace did go out to Australia together - they did everything else more or less together! - and Wallace was still fathering children in late 1882.
But I HAVE just made a breakthrough!
All previous searches for JJ's family post-1883 I did using Hannah's name and birthyear, birth place etc - and failed to find anything, even using just her first name. I should have tried spelling it wrong!
Because just now I tried it using just Agnes's first name and details. And lo and behold, there they are - Hanah, Joseph and Agnes. In Herne Bay in 1891, living with Lewis Edward Golder as his wife and children:
Lewis Edward Golder 34
Hanah Golder 38
Joseph Golder 14
Agnes Golder 10
Jessie Golder 8
Ellen Golder 4
Jessie Cornhill was born qe Mar 1883 in Eastry.
Ellen Amelia Cornhill was born qe Mar 1887 in Medway.
There is no marriage for Lewis/Louis Edward Golder to a Hannah of any description.
I would suspect that the original assumption is probably correct - Jessie was probably the daughter of Joseph James, born in Eastry which covers Deal, where she and JJ had been living. Which means JJ could not have left UK before mid-1882. Then there's a four year gap before Hannah has the next child, who is probably that of Lewis Golder, born in Medway which is quite a way up-county from Deal.
So what happened? Did JJ and Wallace go off to Australia promising to send for the family? Or did they just scarper? Transportation was over by then, so that can't be the answer.
Clearly JJ didn't die in UK - not only is there no record for him, but also surely Hannah would have married Lewis Golder if JJ was dead?
So the balance of probability now is that JJ and Wallace left England some time in 1883 or 1884 bound for Australia. Wallace doesn't appear to have remarried - and died in 1902. There is no info on his listing in the death index, so whoever registered his death knew little about him. JJ struck up a relationship with Ada Mary Rope before 1886 and had two children with her before finally marrying her in 1891. However, he did so bigamously, because his English wife was still alive and kicking in Herne Bay in 1901....
That COULD be the answer to the late marriage to Ada though - by then she was living as Hannah Golder, and he may have tried to trace her and failed, so presumed she was dead?
Yet another skeleton to add to my Cornhills - JJ's grandad appears to have abandoned two daughters in Berkshire as well!
PS Just seen the post from Cazay - thanks for looking! Anything you find would be most welcome...!
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The reason Joseph James wasn't Ernest's next of kin is that he died in 1909. ;D
I have been known, many times, to miss the obvious! ;D
I also went looking at the census, thinking the family may have been deserted, but didn't find them, so a very good find and many of your assumptions seem to be proving correct - so nice when it work that way.
Perhaps he just waited the 7 years from when he arrived in Australia before remarrying - given the distances if he told the preacher/registrar he hadn't seen his wife for 7 years & assumed she was dead, it would probably be accepted - the marriage certificate could be interesting to see how he described himself - do let us know if you get a transcript.
I have researched so many family mysteries - turning up a number of ficticious stories told by the ancestors - I'm sure they never imagined that we would be able to check out these stories over 100 years later!
Trish
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Looked this up but forgot to post it...........
1903 NSW Electoral Roll
Joseph Cornhill, Occupation - Cook
Town: Gummin Gummin
Division: Darling
Sub Div: Box Ridge
This was the only Cornhill listing and I couldn't find Gummin Gummin but Box Ridge is near Coonamble, west of Tamworth and North from Dubbo.
Cazay ;D
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Hi, Cazay -
Thanks a lot for that! A Google reveals that Gummin Gummin's post town was Mundooran, some 212 miles West of Sydney, according to Greville's 1872 Post Office Directory.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hcastle/grevilles/lists/mno/mun.html
Looking at the list of people in the directory, it would seem that Gummin Gummin was a sheep station, rather than the name of a place - in fact all the locations listed look like farms or homesteads of some kind.
Google Maps places Mundooran to the north of Adelaide, so I guess it's not the right one - though it was the only one found. Still, 212 miles west of Sydney will do, and it's in the right area, as the mail route is "Rail Wallerawang, coach via Mudgee, or Wellington, 50m. Mundooran"
It might not necessarily be "my" Joseph, although he was the only one getting married or dying in NSW according to the BDMs, so it is highly likely.
Again, many thanks!
Wendy
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In the interests of closure and for the benefit of those kind souls who helped me, I now have the marriage certificate for Joseph James Cornhill and Ada Mary Rope.
It doesn't actually help much, as most key information has been left blank - no ages, birthplaces or parents are given for either of them. :'(
However, it does show that they were married in the residence of a Robert Price of Mudgee, by officiating minister Robert Allen, according to the rites of the Wesleyan Church. And it gives one key piece of information - the usual occupation of the groom was "Baker".
In the absence of any further likely source of information, that will have to do! Joseph James Cornhill of Whitstable WAS a baker, as were his father and his uncle, and his brother Wallace.
I did make contact with Colin Field, who has Ada Mary and Joseph James in his tree, with two of their three children, Susan and Ernest, listed as Cornhills, whilst the eldest, Lilla, is shown as Lilla Rope. He explained that the surname of Susan and Ernest had come from "family sources", which he had not questioned as the Cornhill connection was peripheral to his main family line.
I have searched every emigration/immigration record I can find, without success, including Findmypast - so I guess I have to settle for Joseph James Cornhill and Wallace emigrating to NSW sometime between 1893 and 1895.
Many thanks for all the help!
Wendy
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Hi Wendy
Despite what is supposed to be on the certificates, apparently until the 1900s many NSW registrations lacked information. I do believe that this information was at times collected by the minister & is in the church records, which may be possible to track down. Some other Oz posters know much more about this than I do.
It does sound very much like your man - if he deserted his wife in England, perhaps he travelled under a different name? or perhaps the records have yet to be transcribed.
Trish
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G'day wdurham,
I would think you already have this. However just in case, this should give you a good look at where Mendooran is in NSW. It is not far from where I grew up at Narromine. http://www.street-directory.com.au/sd_new/mapsearch.cgi
This link give a good description of where Gummin Gummin station (farm) is located. http://www.adb.online.anu.edu.au/biogs/A040096b.htm
Hope this helps
Robert
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Hi again wdurham,
Here is a 2007 council document that still mentions Gummin Gummin in relation to the location of a bridge for traffic purposes. So the property (or location) still exists to the present day
Cheers
Robert
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This is ALL the CORNHILL names in our Telstra online phone book for NSW. As you said there is not many of them. Cant say the same for my lot sadly
Moderator comment: Rootschat does not permit posting of information about living people. Please pass this kind of info by PM or provide a link that others can use. Thanks
Robert
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Thanks for that listing, Robert , and the info on Gummin Gummin.
There ARE some Cornhills in Australia - if for no other reason that a Henry Cornhill was transported there in about 1797!
But my Joseph James Cornhill - if indeed he is "mine" - sadly left no descendants by that name. His son Ernest chose to use the name he was registered with for his entire life, and his children were Ropes too.
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You can check any Cornhills in the white pages via
www.whitepages.com.au
Trish
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I know this is an old topic, but the following post may be of interest http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,616435.0.html
Casalguidi :)
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Thanks, casalguidi - I've been to that thread and posted what I know from previous research.
Hopefully it will help.
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Hi there,
I am not connected to the CORNHILL family, but after having a quick read of this thread I noticed mention of NSW BDM marriage certs that don’t show the details of the parents of the bride and the groom. This of course is for the era 1856-1895. Yes, one of the posters mentioned that the information was provided by the bride and the groom, and yes, it can be found even today. Here’s a thread I did up giving some clues to overcoming those hurdles that may at first seem to be brickwalls. I hope it will be helpful.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
I also have some of the early Electoral Rolls for NSW, (particularly in the 1870s); these are hardcopy, electorate by electorate, and so I would need some locations to help seek out CORNHILL entries in the rolls. I am happy to look up the info if that resource has not yet been tapped.
Cheers, JM
Hi Wendy
Despite what is supposed to be on the certificates, apparently until the 1900s many NSW registrations lacked information. I do believe that this information was at times collected by the minister & is in the church records, which may be possible to track down. Some other Oz posters know much more about this than I do.
It does sound very much like your man - if he deserted his wife in England, perhaps he travelled under a different name? or perhaps the records have yet to be transcribed.
Trish
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Thanks, JM - that's a whole lot of useful stuff!
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Hi - My brother and I are the great grandchildren of Joseph Cornhill. We live in Australia having come out here in the sixties. Also our cousin in the UK. We have been doing some research and come up with the same facts as yourself. We are the grandchildren of Agnes Golder - my mother was Kathleen, my cousin's mother was Daphne (both born in India as our grandfather, Daniel Mildred, was a soldier in India returning to UK around 1920). We are obviously related in some way - are you a descendant of one of Agnes's siblings? We never met any of the family as children. My brother and I had no idea that our great grandfather had come out here in the last century. We thought we were the first!! Would like to make contact. My cousin and I have only just registered with rootschat.
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Hi, Celle -
Yes, we are related, but the link is a long, long way back. Our shared ancestor is William Cornhill, b 1797 in Oare in Kent.
He joined the army - the 7th Foot - at the age of 20 and served in Corfu and Malta in the Mediterranean for much of his career.
William married a girl named Martha from Wokingham in the early 1820s, and they had two sons - Joseph and William Jnr, born 1825 and 1826 in Wokingham.
William was discharged from the army while serving in Ireland in 1839 "worn out from his service" (according to his discharge papers!). He and Martha and their two sons returned to Faversham in Kent, where he died the following year of kidney failure.
The brothers Joseph and William both became bakers by trade - Joseph settling in Whitstable, and William in the Faversham area. I descend from William, via his eldest son, another William b 1848 - and you descend from Joseph, via his eldest son Joseph James also b 1848.
Agnes Golder was in fact Agnes Elizabeth Cornhill, b and registered in Eastry District in the quarter ending March 1881, born to Joseph James Cornhill and Hannah nee Darby. The 1881 Census lists her after her one-year old brother, John T, as age 2, but that should be aged 2 months. At that time they were living at 4 Chapel Street in Deal, where Joseph James was an unemployed baker. Birthplaces of some of the older children, including John T, indicate that the family had just returned to Kent following a period in London.
Subsequent Censuses show her as Agnes Golder after her mother Hannah moved in with Lewis Golder and took his name for herself and her Cornhill children. When Agnes married Daniel Mildred in Woolwich q.e. Dec 1905, she married as Agnes Golder.
As for Joseph James, most of what I know is already posted above or on the other thread linked to this one. He and his brother Wallace disappear from the UK after the 1881 census, and it seems pretty conclusive that the Joseph James Cornhill, Baker, who married Ada Rope in Mudgee in 1891 was our man.
Of Ada's children it is likely that at least the last boy, Ernest, b 1887, was a son of Joseph James. When he died in 1927, his parents were named as James J and Ada. His mother Ada is shown on his military records as next of kin, initially as Ada Rope of Mudgee, changed later to Ada Mary Cornhill of Gulgong. The father's name of James J on the death certificate could be coincidence, but given that Joseph James's father was also Joseph, it's quite possible that he was known as James in everyday life. (I myself am known by my second name, as I share my mother's first name.)
So you may have Australian relations much closer than me - if you can track the descendants of Ernest Edward Rope, b 1887 in Mudgee, died in 1927 in Walgett. If Ernest is the son of Joseph James - and I am pretty sure he was - then he was half-brother to Agnes.
Good luck with them!
If you'd like more info on Agnes's Cornhill side I have them back to about 1763 before running into a brick wall.
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Goodness, you must have been up early. I wasn't expecting a reply so soon!! Thank you so much for the information and any further information you have going back as far as you can would be most welcome. My mother was most reluctant to pass on any information re her ancestry as she felt her family had not achieved very much but, at the same time, I don't think she knew a lot. My brother thinks that our grandmother, Agnes Mildred, severed her ties with her family when she went to India with her husband, Daniel Mildred. Anyway, there were skeletons in the cupboard which were not talked about. I believe Agnes was brought up as Agnes Golder & I think there was some shame that her father, Joseph Cornhill, deserted the family and that her mother was never married to Lewis Golder.
As I said before, having a great grandfather come out to Australia a century before my brother and I (we came out separately but both in the sixties) was absolutely amazing for us. I will definitely follow the line down in Australia.
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I was up rather early! Insomnia rules these days....
I'll sort out the Cornhill stuff I have and let you have a file. They are a mysterious family in the first place - because at about the same time, a Cornhill male turned up from no known abode in both Kent (William) AND Devon (Henry), got married to a local girl and founded large families in or near coastal ports. The Kent people were in and around Oare, Faversham, Whitstable - the Devon family were in Brixham, though they "coasted" east to Portsea, north to Wales and all the way up to Grimsby.
But we have no idea where these two particular men originated - there is a big Cornhill family in Marden in Kent, and a few in Littlebourne, but no links to our William and Henry. Nor have we ever discovered a definite link between the Devon and Kent branches - there are a couple of circumstantial links, based around the two girls born to Martha Cornhill in Wokingham, whom she left behind when she went to Kent with her husband. Both girls seem to have made contact with members of the Devon branch who moved eastwards to Portsea.
But one day I guess we'll be able to find out...
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Once again, thank you so much. I will look forward to hearing further from you.