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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Lizw on Tuesday 18 September 07 04:10 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I'm trying to track down the family of Nathaniel & Catherine Hill and I wonder if anyone would be willing to do some census look ups for me - I would be very grateful for any help anyone can give .
So far I have his daughter Harriet was apparently christened in Brighton in 1825 and I found 3 siblings also christened in Brighton all the children of Nathaniel and Catherine Hill: Thomas in 1816, Catherine in 1817 & Ann in 1819.
Harriet married Fredk William Helmore in 17 April 1849 at St James Westminster "the youngest daughter of Nathaniel Hill, Esq of the Lawn, Tulse hill." I understand Tulse Hilll is near or in Brixton. (the Helmores are my line of this family) no one seems to have recorded anything about this side of my family as Harriet ended up remarrying a very young man shortly after Fredk died and the family were less than impressed - but the Hills do make up a large chunk of our gene pool so I am very interested to see what they did and how they lived.
I also found the sister Ann married a William Pocock at St James in 14 May 1844 - at this wedding Nathaniel is described as "of Regents Street" I think they had a daughter Annie Florence who went on to marry a Fredk John Wimble
There seems to be quite a gap between Harriet and Ann in 1819 I wonder if there were more children born elsewhere?
Thank you for any help you may be able to give.
Liz
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Hi Liz, looks like this could be the family in 1841..........
Regent St, St James Westminster
H0107/736 f13 p21
Nathl Hill 57 Groom
Thomas 25 "
Catherine 20
Ann 20
Sophia 15
Emma 15
Nathl is the only one born in county
Cazay
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1851 6 Somerset Villas St Lukes Chelsea Middlesex
H0107/1473 f10 p12
Frederick Helmore 37 London Coal Merchant
Harriet 24 Brighton
Harriet E dau 1 Chelsea Mdx
Elizabeth Stone 30 Devon Cook
Hannah Farley 20 Woodstock Nursemaid
Cazay
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1861 52 Argyll Rd Kensington St Mary Abbot Mdx
RG9/18 f67 p62
Frederick Helmore 45 St Georges Hanover Sq Coal Merchant
Hannah 33 Brighton Sussex
Harriet E 11 Baddington Mdx
Frederick G 7 Brompton Mdx
Ellen K 9 "
Sophia M 4 Paddington Mdx
Henry 1 Paddington Mdx
Elizth Kirbey 23 Lambeth Surrey Cook
Emma Densby? 22 Clerkenwell Mdx Nursemaid
Elizth Jovrois 18 Baldock Herts Parlor Maid
Cazay
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Hi Cazay
Thank you very much for this.
The Helmores are spot on!! yaaah!
I'm not sure if this is the right Nathaniel Hill though, the marriage notices all refer to him as Nathaniel Hill Esq. so he must have owned property and old family letters from that time I have show that Harriet grew up with lots of servants and she was sent overseas to finishing school, etc (and sounded quite spoilt from family accounts). Unless this was all a big fib I don't think he was a groom.
I found in the London Gazette reference to a Nathaniel Hill who was a Glover and Artificial Florist having a business in Regents St with a Caleb Williamson (the partnership dissolved in Feb 1841) but I don't know if that is the Nathaniel I want either??!!
many thanks for trying though - much appreciated.
Liz
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1871 21 Elsham Rd Kensington Mdx
RG10/35 f103 p40
Frederick Helmore 57 St George Han Sqe Coal Merchant
Harriet 44 Brighton Sussex
Harriet 21 Chelsea Mdx
Ellen 19 "
Frederick 17 " Clerk
Maud 14 Paddington
Douglas 9 Kensington
Percy 4 "
Ernest 2 "
Mary Alderman 19 Covent Garden Mdx Nursemaid
Mary Ann Gadd 22 (birthplace unknown) Cook
Sarah Barelly 22 " Housemaid
Liz, when did Frederick die and Harriet remarries?
Cazay
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I will check the 1841 again, the Groom didn't quite look right and now that you have said that his occupation was Glover I will have another look. The address was in Regent St too.
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Many thanks again Cazay
Frederick died 13 Sep 1890 and Harriet remarried a MUCH younger Alfred Ryder in 1892 - she then died in 1894. Alfred is referred to as the "gold digger" in family history. But the truth was when Frederick died and even before the family was in disarray big court cases, etc over ownership of the firm - it all went to the Privy Council in the end - all very ugly.
Would anyone be able to look up the Helmore side of this family in the 1841 census??
Frederick William Helmore b Oct 1917 in Westminster London
and his Father George Henry Helmore b 1788 in Hanover Sq, (d 1868) marr Elizabeth Curtiss in 1816 (Elizabeth b in 1789 Saint Marylebone, London d in 1872 St Georges Hanover Sq.)
I would be fascinated to see how they were living then - I think George Henry might have also been a Coal Merchant.
Thank you
Liz
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Rechecked 1841.........it actually looks like Gloon but the end letter does resemble r......it could quite easily be Glover. Some of the writing is very difficult to decipher sometimes. The children's ages are also well matched for the birth years that you gave.
The only other Nathaniel Hill who is a possible has Literature beside his name
Cazay
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1841 Norway Wharf St John Evangelist Westminster Mdx
H0107/737 f14 p21
George Helmore 50 Coal merchant
Frederick 20
George 20
Elizabeth 50
Emma 50
Harriett 20
Emma 9
Charlotte Thomas 40
Jane Price 25 FS
Hannah Catnach 15 FS
All born in county
Cazay
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1851 Millbank St, St Peters Wharf St John Evangelist Westminster
H0107/1479 f21 p35 & 36
George H Helmore 63 St George Han Sq Coal Merchant
Elizabeth 62 Marylebone
Catherine 28 St James Mdx
Emma 19 St George Han Sq
George 29 " Coal Merchant
Emma 64 unm sister " (private property, description UK)
Charlotte E Thomas visitor 56 " Marylebone
Ellen Griffiths 29 Kenneston Flint House Servant
Catherine Hughes 27 " Cook
Cazay
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This is WONDERFUL THANK YOU CAZAY!!
Yes I think this Nathaniel sounds too close a match with the children, etc. Hmmm without the servants though they might not have been as well off as she wanted people to believe!!
I wonder does Nathaniel appear in any further censuses after 1841?
Also is it possible to find out what happened to Ann Hill who married William Pocock? Here is their marriage notice from 1844 : "On the 14th inst. at St James Westminster by Rev. J.G. Ward rector William Pocock Esq. of Charterhouse-square to Ann second daughter of Nathaniel Hill Esq. of Regent-street" I think they MIGHT have had a daughter Annie Florence who married a Frederic Wimble - unusual name I'm hoping they might be asy to track?
Thank you again Cazay
kind regards
Liz
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I can't see Nathaniel in 1851 and Freebmd don't have a death either so he remains in limbo for the time being it seems.
Nathaniel's children in 1841 all have Ind (independent) listed against their names so looks like they didn't need to have jobs.
Cazay
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Not finding them easily..........do you know when Annie Florence was born or occupation of William Pocock?
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That all sounds good for Nathaniel Hill Cazay it all fits nicely and it was great to see the other two daughters as well it would help explain that gap I'll look for them in the IGIs.
What great progress we've made - thank you!
As far as the Pococks go this is all the info I have on them it is really an unproven link to the Wimble's at the moment but it does seem to fit very nicely:
There was a William Pocock surgeon M.D. of Brixton around this time he had an eldest daughter Annie Florence who married Frederick John Wimble son of F. Wimble Esq. surgeon of East Malling Kent on the 7th Sept 1871 at St Johns, Angell-town, Brixton (The Times, Monday, Sep 11, 1871 )
Here is that marr in Free BMDs:
Marriages Sep 1871
POCOCK Annie Florence Lambeth 1d 396
Wimble Frederick John Lambeth 1d 396
And Mr Wimble's probable death:
Deaths Dec 1907
WIMBLE Frederick John aged 61 Southwark 1d 66
In IGIs but unproven just a listing:
Annie Florence Pocock Christening: 10 APR 1850 Brixton-St Matthew, Brixton, Surrey, England Parents: Father: William Pocock Mother: Ann
proven from IGIs:Marriages:Spouse:FREDERICK JOHN WIMBLE Marriage: 07 SEP 1871 Saint John The Evangelist, Lambeth, Surrey, England
Here they are in the 1881 census Fredk must have been born abt 1848:
Frederick J. WIMBLE Head M Male 33 Gt. Malling, Hampshire, England Colonial Broker Annie Florence WIMBLE Wife M Female 29 Brixton, Surrey, England
Emma SPENCER Visitor MFemale 51 Burgess Hill, Sussex, England Emily HARLEY ServU female 21 Fulham, Middlesex, England Housemaid Domestic
Rachel CLARK Serv U Female 38 Hastings, Sussex, England Cook
I hope it all makes sense it's just my notes from research today.
thanks
Liz
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Found Annie and Frederick in 1891
7 Hopton Rd Streatham St Leonards London
RG12/456 f146 p56 & 57
Frederick J Wimble 44 East Malling Kent East India Broker
Annie F 39 Brixton Surrey
Annie Wimble sister 39 East Malling Kent Living on her own means
Clara Hulls 31 Westbury on Severn Gloucester Cook
Emily Summersby 23 Winchester Hampshire Housemaid
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Great!! and with a sister Annie for Frederick John. Isn't it great when they have a visiting sibling!
Census results are so interesting a real window into their lives.
thank you!!
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1851, 1 Barrington Cottages Lambeth Surrey
H0107/1575 f138 p20 & 21
William Pocock 33 Brighton Sussex General Practitioner M R G S E L A C
Ann 32? Brighton Sussex
Edward W son 4 City of London
Thomas C son 3 Lambeth Surrey
Florence dau 3 mths "
George Willis 22 Cavan Ireland Assistant M R G S E. L A C
Eliza Higgs 21 Hambeldon Buckinghamshire Gen Servant
Hannah Hinton 19 Horsham Sussex Gen Servant
Edward Town 16 City of London Errand Boy
Hoping all those initials are right, the M could also be N
Cazay
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You are a real hero Cazay!! thank you so much!! I have taken up tons of your time & you have been so kind THANK YOU!!
Liz
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1861, 1 Barrington Villas St Mary Lamberth Surrey
RG9/365 f109 p 4 & 5
William Pocock 43 Brighton Sussex (Member of Royal College of Surgeons and Licent----- of Apocathirie Hall)
Ann 42 Brighton
Mary A F 5 Brixton Surrey
Alfred G C 1 "
Marion Hatton niece 13 London Scholar
Norah L Hatton niece 11 Brighton Sussex
George Corney Birt 18 Stelling Sussex Pupil of Surgeon
Eleanor York 18 Clapham Surrey Servant
Jane York 16 " "
Richard James 17 Lammisthevl Brecon South Wales Servant
Have to sign off for a while now but will look further tonight. Enjoyed finding them for you. ;D
Cazay
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In 1881 William and Ann Pocock are living next door to Frederick and Annie Wimble.
1901, Paddington St Matthew London
RG13/16 f125 p43
George Browse 48 Torquay Devon Tailors Cutter
Alice J 41 " Boarding House Keeper
George C 18 " Silk Manufacturers Assistant
Nellie M 17 "
Dorothy M 15 "
Frederick J Wimble boarder 47 Malling Kent Colonial Produce Broker
Florence A Wimble boarder 41 " Brixton Surrey
Constance M Searle boarder 30 Bombay India Living on own means
Clara W Brown Wid 48 boarder America USA "
Josephine B Pope 51 boarder " "
Beatrice F Copp 23 Bideford Devon Cook Domestic
Maud Harber 21 Croydon Surrey Housemaid
Alwin Bergener 21 Germany Waiter
Looks like they haven't aged much since 1891 ???
Cazay
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1871, 7 Albert Sqr Lambeth London
RG10/672 f137 p18
Frederick J Wimble lodger 24 East Malling Kent Colonial Broker
Charles Wimble lodger 22 " Brokers Clerk
Lodging in the household of Clementina K Poer W 44 Middlesex Annuitant
1861, Royal Medical Benevolent College Epsom Surrey
RG9/419 f91 p21
Fredk J Wimble 14 E Malling Kent Scholar
1851, Rectory House East Malling Kent
H0107/1612 f114 p 35 & 36
Frederick Wimble 43 West Farleigh Kent General Practitioner & Member of Royal College Surgeons London & Licentiate? of the Apothecarys Company, London
Ann 32 Wouldham Kent
Fredk J son 4 East Malling Kent
Charles son 2 Malling Kent
Anne dau 8 mths "
Charlotte Arnold 25 Chalk Kent Cook
Mary A Davis 16 Golding Kent Nursemaid
Mary Tucker 18 Hensdon Kent Housemaid
Albert Jones 13 East Malling Kent Shoe Boy
Cazay
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Hi Liz - just stumbled your 2007 query. I have stacks of the same Helmore's in my tree. Douglas Helmore, son of Frederick and Harriet Hill is my grandfather. He migrated to Bundaberg, Australia and had 11 children - the last being my mother Pearlie Ellen.
Hope your tree is still growing and have a merry xmas.
Nancy Quayle
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Hi Family
I'm also a descendant of Frederick and Harriet
My Great Great Grandfather was Percy Helmore, Great Grandmother was Grace Dorothy Helmore to my Grandmother Shirley Morag Taylor.
I have a great family history written up until Robert Helmore c1755.
Frederick was in fact a Coal Merchant and and Nathanial was listed as a gentleman on the marriage banns.
Fredericks parents were Elizabeth Curtis and George Henry Helmore (also coal merchant) Frederick has an older sister Elizabeth 1819 then George, Catherine and Emma.
Theres some wonderful history written about Harriet, she was not maybe described in the best light.
Has anyone done DNA testing?
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Hi Rachmac, How lovely to hear from you :). I believe once you have posted 3 times on here I can send you a message or I could email you if you like? many thanks Liz
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yes of course * I'm also connected on ancestry as well DNA tested. Gosh I would have been years since I posted. Had children and life got busy
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