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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Suffolk => Topic started by: windy_miller on Monday 17 September 07 23:59 BST (UK)
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Hello,
This is my first topic and I may be missing the mark here...
I am interested in any/all millers in Suffolk pre-1800, but primarily those who worked windmills.
If you have any millers in your family pre-1800 I'd be really interested, and may be able to give you some further milling connections as millers tended to marry into the trade.
Thanks for your time,
Windy_miller
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http://www.norfolkmills.co.uk/Windmills/harleston-jays-green-towermill.html
not quite what you're looking for, but it's interesting..
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The Clover family were one of the main Suffolk Milling families from Drinkstone (two windmills mills) through to water mill on the river Stour in Sudbury.
SM ...
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Thanks for your suggestions and info Hepburn and Suffolkmawther. I was aware of both the norfolk windmills site (v.v good and informative) and the Clover family; a long lived Suffolk milling clan. Drinkstone's two mill are well worth a visit.
My interest is more along the lines of those millers from pre-directory days (pre-1830s). So more obscure and the sort of thing only family researchers might know. I have already gone through all(?) the probate records where index by jobs, etc.
Its hard work but I'm sure that there are plenty more...in indentures of apprenticeship, deeds etc.
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I am the Secretary of FODMAM (Friends of Drinkstone Mills and Meadows) ;D
Unfortunately since the change of ownership the Mills are not open to the public.
If there is a change in this situation I will of course let the Board know.
SM ...
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Hi
Have you heard of Markins/Markhams Mill of Snape?
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Corn Miller Snape - White's 1844
William Ezekiel MARKIN
Will check 1855 later ;)
SM ...
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Hi SM
Yes thats one of my ancestor :D
Thanks
revlac
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I have W.E. Markin at "Markin's Mill", Snape from 1844 onwards for many years (1916...grandfather, father, son, no doubt). Mill was mapped as early as 1825, so prob dates from pre-1800, but I have no millers listed backwards from 1844.
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Had another check of my listing and there were two other Markin millers in the area, no doubt related...
They were
George Markin @ Stonham, miller from c. 1874-1900
And
Saunder Osborne Markin @ Orford, miller c. 1888-1892.
Windy_miller
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Hi windy_miller
Yes these are all related and are ancestors of mine. Can i ask where you were able to find that the mill was mapped in 1825?
Regards
revlac
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revlac,
I check tonight, but I think it came from HES Simmons notes relating to Markin's Mill. He probably was refering to the early OS map, though I understand that there is some debate as to exactly when each sheet was mapped, I have a facsimile of the map at home, and will double check. There was definitely no mill in Snape mapped on the earlier 1783, though there was one about 1 mile SW at the Langham Road/Blaxhall Road T-junction.
So if HESS was correct both Snape mills would date from between 1783 and 1825. I believe Snape Street Mill dates from about 1798.
Windy_miller
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I've checked my 1st ed OS map and both Snape mills are there, though the date at base of map is 1837.
windy_miller
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Hello windy_miller
Thanks very much for looking for me, it sounds very interesting. Its a lovely thought to think that these mills were around at that time. I must say i am very interested in this hes simmons person and wonder what notes he would of wrote down regarding this mill, it would be lovely to find some pictures of it.
Anyway thank you again.
Kind regards
revlac ;)
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Revlac,
You may be interested in the 'fledgling' Suffolk Mills web site at
http://www.suffolkmills.org.uk/
Also http://www.millarchive.com/
Also http://library.kent.ac.uk/library/special/html/mills/suffolk.htm
This has a photograph of Framsden Mill (I climbed that one when eight months pregnant with our daughter :o quite a few years ago).
http://www.windmillworld.com/index.htm is worth a look too.
SM ...
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Hello SM
I've just tried one of the websites you gave me and found some wonderful pictures of the mill, I am so pleased. Thanks for the info on these websites its been very helpful.
cheers!! SM
Regards
revlac ;) :D
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SM,
I think I saw a very nice ink drawing of the mill (open-trestled post mill) in an old East Anglian magazine. I'll see if I can find out when.
Windy_miller
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Hi windy_miller
That too sounds interesting, hope you manage to find the info on it.
Regards
revlac
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Interesting site. Can you recommend any photos of the Sudbourne area. Our family tree includes George Mannall who married Sarah Lambert in 1840 in Woodbridge. He is described as Grain Farmer and Miller in Sudbourne and she was from Grundisburgh. May be myth but the story has come down that the family thought mechanization was the work of the Devil - they preferred to rely on natural elements such as wind and water power... so they lost out to modernization!
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Hello Chandos,
I don't have any windmills in Sudbourne as such, though there was one on the Sudbourne road between Orford and Sudbourne. No Mannell is recorded there (Martin or Markin, any relation?).
Manell's had mills in the following:-
William Mannell Stratford Saint Andrew c.1844-53
John Mannell Westleton c.1844
John Mannell Charsfield c.1869
George Mannell Charsfield c.1874
Any other detail?
Well, hope this helps
Windy_miller
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My ancestor, George Mannall died in and is buried at Charsfield (1890) so my guess is that's the area he worked. His daughter, Mary Ann, is my Great-Grandmother. I haven't looked at them for a while so I'll check and get back with more detail. Some of the other places members of this Mannall family lived were Friston, Kelsale and Iken. Thank you for starting this thread.
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Glad my info was useful. The mill at Charsfield was first in the occupation of John Mannell (between c.1859 - 1868?), then George (between c.1868 - 1887?) when it was taken over by George Keen. She was a postmill (like Saxtead) demolished about 1917, having been moved from Letheringham c.1860, replacing an older mill. I have no info on whether she had any auxiliary power (steam/oil) so that would fit in with your families oral history.
Do you know the connection between John & George and/or when John died? Was George Keen related, as they were often passed on to sons-in-law/nephews, etc?
Interestingly the other mill in Charsfield was in the occupation of an Ezekiel Markin, poss. a relative of the millers in between Sudbourne and Orford, from where your man came. Huummm!
As for photos; I'd be surprised if she wasn't snapped. You could try the Muggeridge Collection at :-
http://library.kent.ac.uk/library/special/html/mills/suffolk.htm
or try asking at The Mills Archive:-
www.millarchive.com
windy_miller
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Thanks again for those links. I've had a quick look and have signed up on one and plan to look at them more closely once our Thanksgiving (this weekend) is over and the family's all gone home again - well stuffed!! (Turkey and family!)
My George Mannall is at Mill Hill, Woodbridge, in the 1841 Census, then in Debach (occupation Miller) for the 1861 Census. I believe they were based in Debach for quite a while as GGrandmother was married from there in 1868. 'My' George's father is in Brandeston as an Ag Lab on the 1841 Census. I believe George had a brother John, born 1819 in Sudbourn but whether he is the Miller you refer to I don't know for sure. Another brother, James was born in 1825 and William in 1826... all in Sudbourne. Unfortunately they weren't too imaginative and repeatedly christened boys George, James and John so they're a bit hard to sort out.
I don't have anything relating to the names Keen or Markin but will keep you posted if I find a link. Thanks again for all your information.
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Chandos,
There were at least 4 windmills on Mill Hill, Woodbridge, and I have had very little luck linking millers to mills. Do you have any clues?
I think I'll have to go done to the IRO and look at the old maps, sometimes they have millers names next to their mills.
Windy_miller
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Hi Chandos
I dont know if you have already looked but as I was looking on The Mills Archive for my Markin ancestors I found a John Mannall at Westleton, mill name ? type - post mill dated ? - 1846 and the mill at Charsfield either run by my Ezekiel Markin 1868 or George Mannall. Just thought I would let you know.
Regards
revlac
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Thanks Revlac. The Mills Archive is one I've signed up for so it's great to have your suggestion -- Not having been familiar with the area when I lived in England, I'm learning a lot about Suffolk/Norfolk geography and history now I'm trying to trace my Mannalls!
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Your Welcome :)
revlac
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Hello .... I am tracing my roots and have many of my family in mid - 1800's who were millers in and around Framlingham. I even have my the apprenticeship papers of Alfred Kindred from 1841 working for James Wells. So far, I know Alfred, Samuel and Frederick Kindred of Framlingham were all millers but I've been unable to locate any information of the mills they worked in or owned. Can anyone help? Thank you.
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Hi Paul,
I do have a bit of info in the Kindreds. I've sent you a Personal Message with some details.
Windy Miller
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Paul, my husband has written four articles on all the various types of mills in Framlingham and has information on the Kindred's at Victoria Mill.
When you have made three posts we will be able to PM you with more info.
(Hi Windy ;)
Pat ...
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PS
You can check out Framlingham at
http://framlinghamarchive.org.uk
Pat ...
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Hi Pat,
Good to hear from you again. I'm still working on the windmills database... Done IJ until 1810 and now starting on the Royal Exchange Fire Insurance indexes. Think I'll try to stop around 1830 in both cases as that is when the Directories startedto get accurate.
Windy Miller
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Thanks Pat - if you send me your email address I will send along Alfred Kindred's apprenticeship papers and mill purchase... I'll be sending them to Windy too !
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Will PM you Paul - now that you have posted three times ;D
Pat ...
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My uncle ran the Greyhound Inn at Gosbeck, and (to make ends meet) he also milled flour in the water mill next door to the pub. Gosbeck was so tiny, it did not provide enough income for the landlord, so that's why he also had to do the milling. The Greyhound has long been converted into a private dwelling.
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Hi Nick,
Very, very interesting. I know Gosbeck and have visited the old Post Mill remains there (built c1865; demolished c1925). There were two other mill site, one at The Grove, and another one lost in time; both of these were gone long before your uncle milled there, and were all wind driven.
I was however completely unaware of a watermill in Gosbeck! Do you have any other information? Was your uncle a Southgate, as George Southgate was the last miller at the postmill site.
I'd be most interested in any info you might have!
Cheers,
Windy
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Wow, I'm a little embarassed now ! My cousin (the daughter of Len Hole, now in her 80's) told me about her father milling to make ends meet, but I'd always assumed that it was a water mill :-[
Len Hole was born in 1901, so it's possible that he did use that post mill. I'll talk to my cousin about it.
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Hi Nick,
Many Innkeepers etc followed their own trade whilst their wife and family ran the hostelry. Our village pub landlord was a pig farmer.
Pat ...
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The old records for most occupations are fairly poorly preserved, most archive for example list surnames rather than occupation (natural as most people are interested in family history). Most industries and occupations were seem as uninteresting until they had mostly disappeared, milling is a good example.
I assume your uncle would have been about 30 plus when he was landlord and part-time miller, so it is more likely he employed a steam or oil driven roller mill. The last remaining windmill in Gosbeck was pulled down c1924.
My interest does extend to ALL mills! Though you'll be hard pressed to find much on the www regarding either steam or oil mills!
Windy
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Oh dear..... the perils of talking to (very) elderly relatives ! ::)
I spoke to my cousin again today - it seems that my uncle didn't take The Greyhound pub over until 1936, and he did not do any milling to make ends meet - he had a milk round ??? Maybe with the mill next door, I put two and two together, and made five ?
If I was embarassed yesterday, I'm mortified today :) Obviously something got lost in the translation.
She also said that the remains of the mill were still there in 1936, but only the foundations really.
Sorry for leading people up the garden path, completely unintentionally :-[
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Nick29, thank you so much for the smiles on reading this one,
it is the sort of thing that happens to me all the time ;D
No need to feel mortified, just a reminder to check and double check family stories.
Pat ...
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Nick,
The object of the tread "Windwind millers of Suffolk"was a fishing exercise, as I'm sure there are plenty of people related to Suffolk's mills (there were about 400 of the things!). Sadly for my Suffolk Mill database there have been very few bites, mostly I've passed on info (which I like doing) and occasionally you gain some.
For a moment I'd found a latter day steam miller, and whilst it was not to be the banter was good and the result amusing.
Cheers for now,
Windy
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Hi Windy
Just came across your post and although it's fairly old I do have some information about some of my ancestors who were Millers in Yoxford and Halesworth. I'm afraid I don't know what types of mills, but on my recent visit to Suffolk from Australia I was fascinated by the amount of Mills that are still around-
I have a copy of two Bonds of Bastardry (from SRO) these provides some details of names and occupations:
1764. John Swann and Edward Swann of Yoxford, Millers and Matthew Swann of Halesworth, Miller idemnify the parish of Metfield from the bastard child of Elizabeth Mitchels and John Swann.
1777. Robert Swann of Framlingham, Tailor and Edward Swann of Yoxford, Miller indemnify the parish of Framlingham from the bastard child of Robert Swann and Ann Bircham
Don't know if in 1764 John, Edward and Matthew were brothers- but suspect this type of connection. There also must be a family connection between Robert and Edward in 1777
Looking for information on Robert Swann of Framlingham (have two Settlement & Removal numbers to chase up at SRO but it's a long way and as I was just there in June, it will have to wait- the tyranny of distance!) as I strongly suspect he was the father of Robert Swann jnr who married Sarah Wells and was the Toll Gate Keeper at Kelsale cum Carlton.
Don't know if this information about Millers, dates and locations helps- but hope so
regards
Barbra
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Hi Barbra,
Funny, I was in Aus, in June looking up a Suffolk miller that got transported. Same problems!!
The Swann's had the Mill in Yoxford for quite a few years and your info was very interesting as it pushed my notes on Swann ownership back to between 1760 & 1764 for Yoxford which previously stopped at 1801. It also adds a bit more detail to the Swann's mill in Halesworth. Thank you very much.
I'll send you PM with some of the details I have.
Cheers,
Windy
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I have miller ancestors from Suffolk. The Titshall family.
Richard Titshall born 1728 in Barnham, Suffolk was apprenticed to Abrose Wicks in 1741 as a miller and wed in 1748 to Judith Scarfe in Bury St Edmunds.
From then on Richard appeared to move around spending some time in Norfolk as well as mainly in Suffolk.
In 1750 a Rose, daughter of Richard and Juda Titsell was baptised in Great Ellingham, Norfolk. Apparently someone said on another miller thread that in 1753 a Richard Titshall ran Saunders Mill in Dennington, Suffolk. In 1760 they were in Laxfield and had a son William baptised there in 1760. They had another son Richard in about 1764 but I have been struggling to find his baptism for years. In 1768 they were in Framlingham according to a settlement cert and Laxfield again in 1769 then back to Dennington where Judith died in 1782.
Richard married again in Hacheston in November 1785 and moved to Redlingfield and became chargeable to Framlingham in 1802 and died in Framlingham in 1807.
Richard born 1764 had a son Richard in Hacheston in 1789 and he became a miller.
Richard's son John born 16 April 1823 in Hacheston was a miller as was his son Jesse and grandson Richard born 1883 who moved to Rochford, Essex in about 1905.
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Hi Coombs,
I can find most of the detail you have given me. Additionally you might be interested to know that Titshall’s were involved in milling at the following (some repetition of your dates):-
SUFFOLK TITSHALLS
Dennington 1753 Richard Titshall
Redingfield 1798 Richard Titshall
Alderton 1790 William Titshall (Fitshall?)
Hacheston 1811 Richard Titshall, dec’d
Marlesford 1825-1830 William Titshall
Hacheston 1830-1858 Richard Titshall
Parham 1864-1868 Richard Titshall
ESSEX TITSHALLS
I’ve looked in Ken Farries excellent series “Essex Windmills – Millers & Millwrights” and found nothing relating to Titshalls as millers (owner or master millers) in there. The Essex connection could relate to watermills, or they could have been journeymen millers?
I was interested to see your ref. to Abrose Wicks (1741). Which mill was this?
Hope this helps,
Windy
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Hi I think it was a village to the east of Barnham. I think it was Barningham.
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Cheers.
Next time I'm at Ipswich RO I'll check it out.
Windy
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Hello, I just noticed your postings...I have the Kitson Family as Millers at Monewden Mill. Im very limited on info but see that there where around for quite some time. Do you have anything on them? or the mill? Thanks Jenny
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Jackson's Oxford Journal, Jun 17 1801
A few days since, a sudden gust of wind blew down the windmill of Mr Andrews, of Barrow, Suffolk, when the sails and other parts thereof were carried, in various directions, a considerable distance. What is very extraordinary, a man and boy, who were at work therein, were precipitated with the mill, but neither of them received the least injury
regards
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Hi y'all (Hotrodpansy & Hanes),
Just got back from the Lone Star State (about an hour ago) so will need a bit of time to get back to you hotrodpansey. But will forward what I have.
Cheers for the intel on Barrow Mill. Will look into that & see if IJ or B&NP confirm. Thanks.
Windy
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Thanks Windy, looking forward to your reply. regards Jenny
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Hi Jenny,
Here is what I can find at present.... Its not much on Monewden. I hope it helps and I would appreciate if you could sens me anything I might have miss (source would be good too) so that I can add to my DB.
Firstly most mill sites were used and reused over and over again. Earliest histories are hard to find, and proper records really began arond 1820-30 period. My data does not push this back much further, but might help a bit.
1803 Disolution of partnership of Wm. Kitson & Jas. Durrant, miller, of Monewden
1805 Monewden Post Mill up for sale by Jas. Durrant. He seems to have sold mill.
Beyond Monewdon I have the following millers:-
Geo. Kitson, senior Benhall 1813 Took on apprentice.
Geo. Kitson, ???? Benhall 1822 Married Hannah Rows od Snape
As the db increase I'll try to remember to forward any other Kitson related info I get.
Afraid its not much, but I hope it helps,
Windy
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Thank you Windy, for such a quick reply. I will try to look into the Kitsons over the next few weeks and let you know anything new. What information do you need to help increase your DB? Once again, thanks, as any information helps and you never know where it might lead! regards Jenny
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Jenny,
I know its not much but I hope to add over time. I'm currently check parish records at Ipswich Records Office (Baptisms record occupations from 1813) but have only got to letter C so far, so it'll be a while before I get to Monweden or Snape. I keep unfinished (ha!) bits separate and add them to the db later, so I've just checked my Benhall PR xls.
George & Hannah Kitson (miller) had son Ginger Thomas Graciton Kitson baptised 1820/05/19, but I have to say the date is confusing as Geo. Kitson did not marry Hannah Rows until 1822?
They then baptised George Thomas Kitson 1823/05/19.
As for what goes into my DB....anything that relates to ownership or employment of a mill (wind, water, animal or steam)....facts to unsourced family hearsay (things that might be forgotten over time). I'm not to fussy. If the info has a source, great, otherwise I enter it as unsourced until I find corroboration.
Happy hunting!
Windy
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Hi this is a total long shot but you never know unless you ask.
I am searching for an Elisha Girdlestone. He married Mary Goft or Croft in 1741 Barham, Suffolk. They had a son Zurishaddai 1752 in Wells next the Sea. He went on to become a Miller in Norfolk.
The only Elisha I can find is an attorney but I dont think this is the right father as in his Will there is no mention of Zurishaddai.
Could Zurishaddai father have also been a miller. Have you come across him?
Any help or advice you could give I would be most grateful
Jill
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Hi Jill,
I'm afraid I have nothing to date on any Girdlestone in Suffolk being connected to milling. Generally speaking my database only goes back to 1813 (baptism records with occupations listed). I don have other stuff but this tends to be peice meal and rather random (fire insurance policies, wills, etc). However, I'll stick a note in my db andd if any thing comes up I'll drop you an email.
I'm also interested in the wells connection. I've just checked there is nothing to do with girdlestone's at Wells though there are mentions at Aylsham and Banningham. I'm sure Jonathan Neville would be grateful of any further info you could pass him at www.norfolkmills.co.uk.
Happy hunting,
Windy
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Thank you for getting back to me so quickly I will certainly pass on information regarding the Norfolk Millers.
We also have another Miller in the family Robert Girdlestone b1831. Originally a Miller in Norfolk then in 1876 he was at Kirkley. In 1881 hes recorded as a Sand paper machine? In 1891 in Kessingland as a Mill wright. He died in 1895.
If you would like more information let me know what you would like.
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Hi Jill,
There were 2 mills at Krkley and he is not listed for either (maybe he was a journeyman miller employed by either Mr. Cleveland or Mr. Parker?). I've drawn a blank for Kessingland as well.
Windy
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Thank you for looking Windy. Would there be any records anywhere other than census records if they were a Journeyman miller. Would their employers have kept any records or would these have long been destroyed? As you can tell Im knew at looking up this occupation and the Mills they may have worked in.
On census records in 1851 Robert Girdlestone is recorded as a Journeyman Miller at Brisley Norfolk, 1861 recorded as a Milliner (not sure what the difference is?) at Norwich. Then in 1871 he is recorded as a Master Miller at Mill House Stalham, Smallburgh, Norfolk. On one of his sons birth cert in 1876 he is recorded as a Miller living at Mill Cottage, Kirkley. In 1881 he is living at 3 St Leonard Terrace, St Leonards Road, Kessingland.
I do think as you say he may have worked for someone else.
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recorded as a Journeyman Miller at Brisley Norfolk, 1861 recorded as a Milliner (not sure what the difference is?) at Norwich.
A bit of a difference :D
a milliner make hats, usually nice ones for women.
I think you know what a miller does ;D
Pat ...
(lovely to see the sails and the fan tail going round at Saxtead mill a couple of days ago in the light breeze).
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Hi Jill,
As Pat says a Miliner is not a miller so I suspect it is an error, and that he was a miller rather than a miliner.
So it seems he was a JM Miller first and progressed to Master Miller (that still suggests he worked for someone else and as a foreman-type miller), often JM Miller put down they were Millers.
You could ask if anyone has a Girdlestone listed in any of the half dozen parishes he seems to have lived. Marriage records from about 1837 and Baptisms from about 1813 list occupations and some have been digitized.
I've always found other Rooters very helpful with digging up this sort of info. Alternatively if your in Ipswich or Norwich the Record Offices will have these sorts of details on microfilm.
I hope this help & good luck,
Windy
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Hi Pat,
I'm Suffolk way next weekend so will pass Saxted. Hopefully she'll be turnin'.
Whats happening at Drinkstone?
Windy
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Dew she looked whully beautiful in the sun this week bor!
I have forwarded the FODMAM (Friends of Drinkstone Mills and Meadows) file to Rosie Hayward (now in Scotland).
From what Rosie says they are hoping to re-form the friends group and arrange a couple of working days this year. Now that she has the information in the file I think she will be contacting former members.
Will let you know if I have any further news.
And yes, I agree that Milliner (hat maker) was just an error for Miller ;D
Pat ...
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I have recently found a family connection to the Roe's of Redlingfield.
William Graiston (Graystone?) Roe was a miller at Redlingfield in the 1841 / 1851 and 1861 census. He was originally from Hollesley, but married in Redlingfield in 1821 - so I guess may have been there for a while. In White's Gazetteer of 1844 he is listed as "corn miller and house(holder)" and may even have risen to the lofty rank of parish clerk - the PO Directory of 1864 lists a William Gaisford Roe.
I suspect he was related to the Samuel Roe who was a miller at Horham around the same time, although I've not been able to prove a connection; not to mention Augustus Roe who was a miller at Horham in 1871 and at Framlingham in 1891.
2 of his sons were millers - although they moved to the Linton / Sawston area near Cambridge in the 1850/1860s, and WG Roe followed them there in the 1860s (he died in Sawston in 1874). Incidentally one of his sons (William Roe) worked for some time at the paper mill in Sawston - keeping up with the Industrial Revolution I Guess!
His daughter, Rebecca, worked as an assistant at a chemist's in High Holborn in the 1850s (presumably they gave her the pestle and mortar!) :D
regards
dejay
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Back again with a question or two....
I've been going through PR at Ipswich (Baptisms) because the contain occupational info on parents, and I've been extracting the mill related names. Unfortunately Marriage normally only contain occupational details after 1832.
So I'm trying to push back some of my early millers and could do with somehelp. Ideally, a pointer in the direction to find any early info on millers with relation to marriages, or less ideal but useful anyway, pointers to marriage dates for the following:-
William & Mary (nee Benacres) CHENERY pre1811 poss.Debenham
William & Charlotte GARDENER pre1813 poss. Alpheton
William & Mary (nee Osborn) MARKHAM pre1813 poss. Ashfield cum Thorpe
James & Ann (nee Camel) HUNT pre1813 poss. Bacton
Any help, or pointers would be brilliant!
Cheers,
Windy Miller
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My Titshalls lived at Redlingfield in 1798. They did seem to move around Suffolk from parish to parish in the mills.
As for records of miller employers then settlement papers and apprenticeship records are the best thing and miller directories like what has been listed.
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Thanks for the suggestion Coombs...I think I have done most of these already.
Windy
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"William Markham, 1813, poss Ashfield cum Thorpe"
The Ipswich Journal, Sat 19 Jan 1811 (extract)
"ALL the Stock in Trade and other Effects of Mr WILLIAM MARKHAM, Ashfield, Suffolk, Miller, ......"
regards
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Great! I don't have anything on William Markham at Ashfield. I'll have to investigate, thanks.
Windy
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I have a John BEARDWELL born in 1804 in Stoke, Suffolk. In 1841 he was a journeyman miller living in Bear Street Nayland, Suffolk. However I don't have any more details of him or any other family members who were millers.
Jen
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Hi Jen,
I've looked at my DB on Suffolk millers just for Beardwell. It has thrown up the following:-
1743/03/05 pg.4 c.1 "To be LETT, and enter'd upon at Lady-Day, or Midfummer next, at STRATFORD in SUFFOLK.
TWO very good WATER-MILLS, one of which is employ'd in the Oil Bufinefs, the other in the Corn; with a Dwelling-Houfe belonging to each; Alfo Grainaries, Out-houfes, and all Manner of Conveniences; the whole in very good Repair, lately in the Occupation of Mr. JOHN BEARDWELL, deceas'd, and now occupied by his Widow.
For further Particulars enquire of Mr. Samuel Todd, Grocer, at Head-Gate, Colchefter."
1756/11/30 pg.5 "THE creditors of John Beardwell, of Stratford in the County of Suffolk, Oylmiller, are defired to meet the faid John Beardwell, at the Swan Inn in Stratford aforefaid, on Monday the 20th Day of December, at Eleven of the Clock in the Forenoon, to confider of Propofals for affigning over the faid John Beardwell's Eftate and Effects, for the Payment and Satisfaction of all the faid John Beardwell's Debts."
This is a water mill, long gone, at Stratford St. Mary.
I have nothing (yet) on your later John Beardwell, but it is an unusual name, and milling ran in families so they are likely to be related.
If I find anything else I'll forward it on to you.
Happy hunting,
Windy Miller
PS. I'll add your chap to my DB. Thanks. If you get anything else I'd appreciate being able to add it too.
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Hi Jen,
Sorry I should have said...The first quote come from the Ipswich Journal and the second from the London Gazette.
Cheers,
Windy
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Hello Windy
Thanks for this information - its very interesting. My 4 X great grandmother Rachael Beardwell was born in Stratford St Mary and the family lived there for several generations after her so there were clearly connections with Stratford. Maybe my direct family were millers and not just the cousin John Beardwell born around 1804 whom I first mentioned.
My 5 X great grandfather was John Beardwell born 1731 in Holton St Mary so it seems possible. There were several John Beardwells around at this time however, not counting the many other ways the name was spelt- Bardwell, Birdwell, Berdwill, Bradwell etc etc
I have looked again at the 1841 census and there are other millers living in Bear Street, Nayland. In fact three others - John Smith, William Mussell and Edward Jarvis. They all appear to have been born in Suffolk.
If I unearth any others I'll let you know.
Jen
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Hi Jen,
The Bear Street location suggests that John worked at the watermill in Stoke by Nayland (or Nayland), known I think as Middle Mill, which was owned and run by the Stammers family at the time. They were a big and successful milling family who owned or ran about a dozen mills in Suffolk & Essex over a period of time. I expect the other three gents were also journeymen millers or miller's men working for either Jeremiah or William Stammers (do they show up on the census?).
There were a few windmills in the immediate area too but I don't think your John will have worked there.
As far as the Stratford St. Mary watermill was concern it was both an oil and corn mill. And at the time it was not uncommon for millers to find themselves in ecumenically constrained; corn prices varied all over the place at the time which lead to riots, etc.
Windy
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Yes there is a William Stammers, a corn merchant, aged 72, living in Bear Street, Nayland in the 1851 census. He has a servant so clearly doing well! I can't see him in the 1841 census but he is still there in 1861 aged 84. He was born in Melton, Suffolk.
I can't see Jeremiah in Nayland though.
Thanks again
Jen
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Yep. My records show them as owning the mill too. Big players in the flour buisness in the area!.
Windy
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Hi
You may remember that you very kindly gave me some info regarding the Titshall millers in Suffolk a year or two ago. I was at the time researching William Gooch Titshall and thought it might be of interest to let you know how far a 'journeyman miller' went on his quest for mill work through his life.
William initially was probably raised in Woodbridge, Suffolk (baptised there 1816). Around the age of 22 in 1838 he was down in Essex, probably working at the West Ham/Barking mills, he met and married a farmers daughter there . By 1841 they were living in Isleworth, West London; the young wife died in early February and was buried there. By census time 1841 William was lodging in Brentford (journeyman miller). In 1843 he married again and had a couple of children in Brentford. By census 1851 they had moved to Amersham, Bucks and had a further 4 children there - the family lived at the mill there for at least 10 years - by census 1871 the family were in Bermondsey, south London and William was now foreman at a rice mill with a son and nephew working alongside him. He died in late 1872.
I've read alot now about the different types of mills were used; and millers in general - very interesting.
I was also going to ask for your help with regard to your database of millers - I'm looking for a possible Frost family connection to William. Is there any Frost millers in the early 1800's in the Woodbridge area?. Thank you
regards
Karrienz
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Hi Karrienz,
Its very kind of you to remember me. Thank you for this info...I'll add it to my db, as it is new to me.
Cheers,
Windy
PS I think I may have one or two morre Titshall dates. Will try to get back to you.
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Hi Windy
Just a quick update if you like - although William Gooch Titshall isn't a miller by trade in Suffolk but in Bucks.
As I mentioned earlier this month he did move about a lot as a journeyman miller and Chalfont St Giles is quite a distance from where he was born in Woodbridge. I've been able to find out the name of the farm he worked at for 10 years or so; Bowstridge Farm (Farmhouse and Mill and approximately 112 acres) and it was sold by John Grimsdale in 1850 to a Mr Goodman (although Mr Grimsdale kept a few acres back for himself; and the Grimsdales through a few related generations were corn merchants as well as landowners in the Uxbridge area of Middlesex through into the late 1800's.
regards
Karrienz
Ps I found this website to be fascinating; when I googled London rice mills - there are photographs or 19th century Rice Mills and water mills on the Thames before the embankments went up etc and lots of intersting maps. Thought you might like it too.
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opps forgot to past the website:
http://partleton.co.uk/James1837in1861b.html
cheers
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Thanks Karren,
I'll pop your relly into my db, and investigate Rice Mills...Mrs. Miller will be glad to see another source of interest for Mr. Miller!
Cheers,
Windy
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George Vincent (b1804, Fressingfield) journeyman miller in Brundish in 1841 and then in Bradfield, Essex in 1851.
I'm not sure where he moved next.
Thanks for a fascinating thread.
Malcolm
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Hi Malcolm,
Got a few of yours in my db...
James Vincent (miller) 1800-1808 Hintlesham
Robert Vincent (miller) 1841 Diss
John Vincent (miller) 1874 Bramfield
Charles Vincent (miller) 1844 Brundish
Richard Vincent (miller) 1879 Mendlesham
James Vincent (miller) 1891 Metfield
John Vincent (miller) 1883-1888 Metfield
A. N. Vincent (miller) 1929 Thelnetham
Yoh Vincent (miler) 1823 Hadleigh
Hope this helps.
Thanks for the info on George...He's in my db now!
Windy
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Thanks Windy,
I'm particularly interest in any info you have on Charles Vincent in Brundish 1844 as it looks as though my gggrandfather either joined him there or perhaps took over milling?
Having just said that, I ought to know better than assume anything when it comes to family trees :'(
Malcolm
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Brundish, Suffolk 1841 census page 10
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Hi Malcolm,
Thanks for the names...bagged them now.
Green & Philpot were both at Green's Mill. Philpot died shortly after the census as he was described as "dec'd" in 1842.
Your Vincent was at Buckingham's Mill (if he was your man). Are there any other names associated with the mill George was working at in 1841? They could confirm it was Buckkingham's.
Windy
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Yes, George Vincent is my 2xGreat grandfather. There are no other millers on the page. The family are the entry before Yew Tree House on the eastern side of the village along "The Thoroughfare". You have a Charles Vincent there in 1844 but that isn't a descendant of George whose eldest child was born in 1830 and there's no record of a Charles in the direct line.
George moved on into Essex for the 1851 census when he's a journeyman miller in Bradfield.
Any information on Buckingham's Mill will be most gratefully received.
Kind regards,
Malcolm Vincent
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Malcolm,
I cannot confirm that George was at Buckingham, though it looks like Charles was. If they were not related there is no reason George was there.
Millers I have in Brundish at this time were...Philpot, Green & Kemp (slightly earlier were a Mr. Cook & Randall).
I have check another milling db I have (not completed) on Baps in all Suffolk's parishes where father was a miller (1813 to about 1850 only) and have the following additional Vincents.
Palgrave 1851 Thomas & Emma Vincent (son Wm. & dau. Rosa)
Hadleigh 1838 James & Maria Vincent (dau. Maria)
Brundish 1829 George Vincent m. Charlotte Cook
Brundish 1831 George & Charlotte Vincent (son George)
Brundish 1832 George & Charlotte Vincent (dau. Maria)
Brundish 1834 George & Charlotte Vincent (son John)
Brundish 1838 George & Charlotte Vincent (dau. Hannah & Eliza)
Not sure if any of these are yours? If they are and you have any maiden names (marriage dates, etc.) then that would be excellent as millers tended to marry into the trade.
Cheers,
Windy
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Wow! You have given me the maiden name of George Vincent's wife (Charlotte Cook) so thank you.
George 1831 was in Stradbroke workhouse in 1851 and a miller in Plaistow, Essex in 1861 and then at another mill in Ferry Lane, Rainham , Essex in 1871. He returns to Plaistow in 1881 and ended his days in West Ham Workhouse in 1901. Neither of his two sons became millers.
John 1833 became a shoemaker and "emigrated" to Birkenhead.
Maria went into service remained single all her life.
Hannah also went into service and married in London.
Eliza also ended up in Plaistow/West Ham married to a mariner.
I guess that craft millers had become a thing of the past by the end of the century?
Many, many thanks,
Malcolm
p.s. I suspect that the Charles connection will emerge once I get to the record office in Ipswich. Do you have his age ?
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Entertaining, fascinating talk by Jonathan Sullivan of Saxtead Mill at Framlingham Historical Society last night.
J will get photocopies of Aldred and Jesse Wightman invoices that he has and pass to Jonathan.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0x8n/
SM ...
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Glad I can help!
This might add a bit more to your tree, but another branch? There was a miller in Brundish (who I have not been able to pin to a mill yet) called William Cook in 1809. He had died still linked to Brundish by 1820. Yet another William Cook was selling the (unidentified) mill in and advertisement in the Ipswich Journal in 1828. (I have not been able to see the contents of this advert so I cannot say which mill its was likely to be). Either of these men could well been George's father-in-law. This would explain his employment as a journeyman miller.
If you do turn up anything mill related, esp. Suffolk mills, then I'd be grateful if you send a ref to me for my db.
Happy hunting,
Windy
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Thanks Windy,
Yet another task for the record office list.
Malcolm
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Hi,
I only just found this post, which I see is quite old, and I haven't read through all the posts yet.
My Nan was Freda Florence Dawson, born 1896 at the Mill, Rushmere St Andrew. Her father Alfred Dawson (1863, Rushmere) and mother Florence Rachel Fenning (1872, Hemingstone) had the windmill at Rushmere. Her grandfather William Dawson (1819, Levington) had the windmill at Rushmere and a second one on Foxhall Rd, by Heath lane, Ipswich. William's family were millers, farmers and landowners around Suffolk. At least two of his brothers (George and Robert) were millers. A note from the Dolman collection states:
The mill stood in Playford Road, at the corner of Heath Lane, at Grid Ref 203458. It was a smock mill, on a low brick plinth. Built 1814, sails removed 1928 and demolished c.1939.
Trades directories record the Dawson family as millers from 1847, as
follows:
1847, 1853 George D
1855 William D
1858, 1864 George D
1868 Robert D
1869, 1874, 1879, 1883, 1888 William D
1892 to 1937 Alfred D
William Dawson died 4th May 1896 aged 77.
William was married to Elizabeth Fayers (1835, Milden) my gg grandmother. The Fayers family were also millers. Her great uncle William Fayers (1789, Bildeston) and his wife Elizabeth Freeman, were the millers at Bosmere Mill at Creeting St Mary.
My great grandmother Florence Fenning (see above) was the daughter of George Ambrose Fenning (1842, Elmsett) and Sarah Sheldrake (1842, Bramford). Sarah was descended from the Everett family, who had mills at Capel St Mary and environs, as well as farms at Rushmere, next to Dawson's Mill.
If anyone has any interest in milling families of Suffolk, or any info, I would be most pleased to hear from you :)
Regards
Phil How
(Croxley Green, Herts)
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Hi Windy,
This is my first post so hopefully I'm doing this right!
I'm doing research on my ancestors, the Collins families of millwrights - some in Melton, some in Woodbridge, some in Needham market and some in Framlingham. Its quite a dynasty but as they didn't seem to have much imagination there is a very limited selection of christian names which were used over and over again which is very confusing!!
Any info you or anyone on here might have which would allow me to cross reference or even add to the tree would be very helpful. Feel free to pm me if you wish.
I saw a posting from Gobbitt regarding a John Bigland Collins - he was one of my lot! Another Collins married a Mary Gobbitt....might be one of his relations - I have details if you like?
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Windy wrote: This might add a bit more to your tree, but another branch? There was a miller in Brundish (who I have not been able to pin to a mill yet) called William Cook in 1809. He had died still linked to Brundish by 1820. Yet another William Cook was selling the (unidentified) mill in and advertisement in the Ipswich Journal in 1828. (I have not been able to see the contents of this advert so I cannot say which mill its was likely to be). Either of these men could well been George's father-in-law. This would explain his employment as a journeyman miller.
Windy, I have just revisited this post and realised that I can add a little flesh to the Brundish mill story...
In 1829, George Vincent my ggg-grandfather married Charlotte (nee Davis) young widow of William Cook who died in 1823 and whom she had married in 1820.
The William Cook advertising the mill is probably a relation to the miller William. George Vincent is the journeyman miller in Brundish in 1841 but moved south into Essex by 1851.
I haven't pursued William Cook's line as his ancestors are not related to me either by blood or by marriage.
Kind regards,
Malcolm
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My mother's Ruffle family were for centuries farmers and millers in South Suffolk at Alpheton, Long Melford and Haverhill; and in North Essex at Castle Hedingham, Halstead, Wickham St Paul, Alphamstone and Belchamp Walter.
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Hallo.
If you are still collecting Suffolk millers...
Mine was a James Lambert, miller in Leiston in 1840.s.
He and wife Mary (nee Shepherd ) lived at the Mill House, Mill corner in 1841.
I do not know where James' father was a miller before him.
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Hi Lola,
Always, always, always looking for Suffolk millers! The mission never stops.
Very interested in your James Lambert at Leiston.
I have a Henry James Lambert who milled at the mill on Valley Road, Leiston from 1889 until c1921 (he died 1924). This mill is often called Lambert's mill and was demolished c.1921.
At the same site in 1840 the owner was listed as Samuel Collins (a local millwright) and the occupier (tenant) was William Woods, who remained there till about 1850. I have no mention of James Lambert in the 1840s. Might he have been a journeyman miller, and was he H.J. Lambert's father?
I'm assuming, given the date (1841), that this is a census record? Anyway, I'll pop him in my records and see if I can dig up any more on him!
Thanks!
Windy
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Hallo windy.
So pleased to see you are still researching mills and millers. James Lambert and Mary( Shepherd
myGT GT aunt) had three children
1. Mary... 1840, died young.2 Henry James Lambert ,born April quarter of 1852 (. He married Emma Jane Mayston dec Qr 1874 Ipswich. And they had Lily and Allan,).
and 3, Adam Lambert born1856.
Census
In1901 Allan Lambert ( a steam engine fitter aged 22 is living at valley view Leiston with sister Lily aged 25.
A Lambert family bible , dated 1836, was found at the Mill house house some years back and I was asked to trace the family .
The Bible went to the descendents of one Audrey J E Vanstone, a widow who was mentioned in the will of Alan Lambert of the Mill House who died in March Qr of 1954 , Blything aged 74. Probate was sept 1954.
I know nothing about the Mill
I went to Theberton once but not Leiston.
I would have liked to see the bible.
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Great info!
So Henry James was son of James. HJ died 18/02/1924. I have the following ...
Probate Lambert, Henry James, Leiston, 1924
“LAMBERT Henry James of Mill House Leiston Suffolk died 18 February 1924 Probate Ipswich 8 April to Allen Lambert gentleman Lily Eugene Kemp (wife of Edward John Kemp) and Bernard Pretty solicitor.
Effects £5,475 3s. 7d.”
HJ was the miller and owner of Valley Road Mill from 1889 till 1921 (at least), but I have nothing on his father James.
Did you say the 1841 info came from the Census of that year?
Here is an undated photo of the mill in her full glory
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Windy,
Good to hear from you. Might this be the James you are interested in?
Ipswich Journal, 14 July 1894
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Yes Windy. You are correct.
Henry j was the son of James and Mary.
Lambbert
In 1841 I was looking for Mary Shepherd, nee Barber . She was not at home with her husband Henry and the children.
I found her at the Mill house where her daughter , Mary Lambert had a new baby, Mary who died young.
Sad the mill is no longer there. I do like windmills.
Pity so many were lost in both Norfolk and Suffolk.
Yes you are correct in the marriages etc etc. Lily married Edward J Kemp in Ipswich and Allan Lambert remained single
You seem able to find so much info.
Please. I should be so grateful. could you find , if you have time,
Who James Shepherd,s father was.
He married Mary Barber in Leiston in 1814.
They had Henry mygt grt grandfather in 1820.
And Mary before 1820.
I have his father down as John Shepherd from Fressingfield who married Susannah Feveryear.... But this may be incorrect
James , on, cenus gives birthplace as
Theberton and Mary Barber also.
I have spent 30 yrs looking for James to no avail.
I seldom leave the house now so cannot get
to suffolk.He was born about 1794
I have searched online to no avail.
It was much easier to find stuff online years ago than now.
Thank you for the photo...lovely to see that.
Lola
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Hi Hanes Teulu,
Keeping well I trust.
I have this bit of info, but it seems that it unlikely to have been a chap millering back in 1841 (though it could be, but he would be PRETTY old). Lola5 has James Lambert in Leiston as a miller in 1841. I can see nothing in my database on him, if it is him, till 1894. No doubting Lola5's info, but strange there is nothing else.
Windy
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Hi Lola5,
I've had a quick look at my (limited to millers, etc) database and I cannot see anything on the Shepherd branch.
Having said that, for generic non-milling families, there are lots of very, very helpful folks in the RootsChatosphere that are much more able than me. I'm sure you'll hit pay-dirt soon! :)
Windy
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I did wonder if H J Lambert was being referred to as James rather than Henry James?
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Well James Lambert was a miller in 1841.
They lived at the mill house.
That is where my Mary was, probably tending her eldest daughter at birth of first baby.
Now in 1901, RG /3 1972/16/23. you will find a Sarah Lambert , *at Eastwell house Sizewell Rd.,a widow born 1857. a boarding house keeper born Blaxhall Suffolk
With a Maggie Lambert daughter aged 18 born Leiston.
*This is Sarah Elizabeth Bird who wed Adam
Lambert son of James and MaryLambert in Plomesgate 1876.
Adam died1893.
Henry James Lambert was the eldest son of James Lambert. so he took on the Mill after his father.s death or incapacity.
Just posting what I have in a little black book found in my "stuff for burning box" in case it is of interest to anyone.
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Another entry in the local press relating to James Lambert, from 1903 ... and at a place called "Lark Hill" (any one know where that is?
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I can see a James Lambert, age 25, occupation Ag Lab, with a Mary Lambert, age 25 and Mary Lambert, age 1. Address is Mill Corner, Leiston Blything.
A Mary Ann Lambert's birth was registered Mar Qtr 1840, Blything - mother Sheppard. A Henry James Lambert was registered Jun Qtr 1852, Blything - mother Sheppard.
Think James appears as a Carter in subsequent Censuses - in 1891, age 78, "living on own means".
Do you have a Census reference for "James Lambert, miller" living at "Mill House"?
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No .James Lambert was there in 1841 ...check the 1841 census. Leiston.Check his occupation
I have it all written down in one of my books.
Somewhere. At my age memory is not as it was.
He may well have been a carter working for his father who may have been a James Lambert.
Yes Mill corner rings a bell.
Sadly the site I put all my findings is no longer in existence
And inhaave only this little book on which I jotted notes.
James was born1815
Mary was 20
The baby was Mary and there was an Abigail
Saunders aged 80
And Mary Shepherd aged 40.
But they lived at the Mill House , Mill Corner.
I did not know James was a miller until the Bible came to light.
I wonder if James Lambert's father was a miller there before that?
The newspaper article was interesting but I could see no date.
James was James... Henry James was Hj.
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Yes it is more likely James was a carter or an age lab. I was very surprised to find him as a Miller.
How could a carter or ag lab be of independent means?
No pensions then?
Who was the
James Lambert .miller
Why were they living at the mill hou
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Yes that is all correct.
Dates. People etc etc.
" A Lambert family bible dated 1836 The Mill house Leiston was found and a search and a for a descendent results in the bible being sent to descendents of Audrey Vanstone ( who was born June. 1897 and died July 1986) housekeeper to Allen Lambert of the Mill House Leiston who was named in his will . "
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Here is a reference to an early windmill, in Polstead, Suffolk. This is from Common Pleas, Easter term 1308:
Suff. Margaret who was the wife of Edmund de Polstede versus John de Tendryng for a third part of 160 acres of arable land, 50 acres of meadow and one windmill ("molendin ventrith" or molendinum ventriticum) with appurtenances in Polstede, (and others for others properties), which she claims as her dower.
second entry:
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/E2/CP40no170/bCP40no170dorses/IMG_0118.htm
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Hi Hanes Teulu,
Keeping well I trust.
I have this bit of info, but it seems that it unlikely to have been a chap millering back in 1841 (though it could be, but he would be PRETTY old). Lola5 has James Lambert in Leiston as a miller in 1841. I can see nothing in my database on him, if it is him, till 1894. No doubting Lola5's info, but strange there is nothing else.
Windy
"Henry James Lambert" appears in the article below (Framlingham Weekly News, 13 Aug 1893) as James Lambert and is very probably the subject of my earlier newspaper snippet.
I believe Henry James' and Adam's father James can be found on the '41-'91 Censuses - but never as a miller. Death reported in the Evening Star, 1 Feb, age 85, address Sizewell Road.
regards
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Thank you hanes teulu and windy.
So only Henry James Lambert was the miller there. Sometimes known as James..... So was HJ the one who had the accident with the cart...or was there yet an older James Lambert I wonder. Who had the Mil before.
Doesn't.t matter really as all dead and the mill has gone.
The Lambert bible was 1836... The Mill House.
Wonder how old the mill was .
Wonderful to read those newspaper snippets. Ties in with
some things .
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Hi Vance,
These Medieval snippets are really interesting. I have similar from 1305 (I've lost reference but I think its an Inquisition Post-mortem which also references John de Tendring (age 22) , heir and son of William.
For the link I think I'll need to brush up on Latin. :) but I can make out the mill reference in the script.
Very tantalizing! From the Apportionment records I have not been able to find a nailed-on site; no "Mill Mount" fields, but may be one day I'll locate it.
Windy
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Good. It seems we have resolved the Lambert's at Leiston Mill!
Windy
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Yes. There was a mill there in 14 th century it seems.
Robert 3? obtained a charter for a mill at Leiston on that site.
No doubt rebuilt over the centuries.Bought by James Lambert ( HJ ?) in 1875.
By 1920 mill was gone but Mill House and barn still standing. Houses built around.
( Courtesy Mills Archive site).
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Here is the IPM reference for the windmill in Polstede. A messuage with 2 gardens, 40a. land, a dovecot, a fishpond, and a wind-mill.
https://archive.org/details/cu31924011387820/page/206/mode/2up?view=theater
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Yep, that the fella! Thanks! I'll added the reference back into my db.
W