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Family History Documents and Artefacts => Graveyards and Gravestones => Topic started by: KathMc on Friday 14 September 07 21:07 BST (UK)

Title: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: KathMc on Friday 14 September 07 21:07 BST (UK)
Hi all. A friend is trying to clean her ggg grandparents stones of moss. She was working at the bottom and scratched the stone, so stopped, and wondered what she could do to get the moss off. I knew there would be someone here who could help. I had heard you can use bleach to get moss off stone, but I wasn't sure that was the route to go with a gravestone. These stones are from the 1860s and 1870s. She said they were more of a "modern" ilk than the old stone ones.

Thanks for the help.

Kath
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: stanmapstone on Friday 14 September 07 21:53 BST (UK)
Just to point out that each gravestone or memorial is owned by the person who erected it, or by his/her successors, and anyone who removes or defaces a memorial trespasses thereby. Before undertaking any work you should obtain permission from the owner.
Cleaning gravestones so as to not cause damage is not a job to be undertaken by an amateur. Where cleaning is felt to be necessary for an inscription to be made legible, this can be achieved by using a soft brush and plain water. A few lichen species are specially protected by law and collecting (or damaging) them is an offence.
Have a look at
http://www.thebls.org.uk/content/chlich.html
and http://www.ctgravestones.com/Conservation/cleaning.htm
Stan
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: ricky1 on Friday 14 September 07 22:18 BST (UK)
hi Kath

I used warm soapy water and a very fine brass brush, and I didnt have a problem doing it, but then I suppose what the head stone is made out of.

Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: aghadowey on Friday 14 September 07 22:22 BST (UK)
Went to graveyard recently and someone had scratched across s stone to read one name and his dates better. I'm pretty sure of the culprit as recently his illegitimate daughter's daughter was in touch (she had just been told who grandfather was) but a few weeks later grand-daughter died suddenly (a coincidence I'm sure). It was a lovely old stone and don't know if it'll ever look alright again.
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Guy Etchells on Friday 14 September 07 23:29 BST (UK)
Be very careful when attempting to clean gravestones you could be committing a criminal offence.
Lichens may be found on many gravestones and at least 26 species are protected under UK law (Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981).

It should also be noted for overseas forum members that many countries in the world protect lichens including the USA and Russia.
Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Suffolk Mawther on Friday 14 September 07 23:42 BST (UK)
Before attempting cleaning, I use paper and old fashioned wax crayons to make a 'rubbing' of the lettering, often that is successful and gives all the information needed.

Also, when visiting a graveyard in Suffolk with an overseas researcher, the afternoon sunlight made the stone much easier to read than the mornings shadows.  Always take a good torch (flashlight) along so that you can shine on to the lettering from different angles - sometimes helps.

Best wishes, SM ...
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: KathMc on Friday 14 September 07 23:44 BST (UK)
Thank you all for this information. I will pass it along to my friend. It is her ggg grandparents grave, so I don't think ownership is an issue (but not sure, so I wouldn't even assume that), but I know she absolutely doesn't want to damage the stones. I am in the US and don't know anything about lichen being protected, so there is another thing to look into. I knew I was posting in the right place.  ;D

I will let her know.

On a side note, I am going with her to visit an old family plot, which will entail a hike to get to, and I am so excited. Her family has been in this area for generations and the original family member who settled here is buried there. Not my family, but exciting to make the excursion with her.

Thanks for all the info and especially the cautions.

Kath
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: KathMc on Saturday 15 September 07 01:48 BST (UK)
I called my friend a while ago with all the info you guys have given and I emailed her the link for cleaning (thanks Stan). I cautioned her on everything and she is in total agreement. I must say, she was shocked at how quickly I got a response. I told her she needs to check out this great site I go to...  ;)

I am hoping to take a walk over to the cemetery with her tomorrow. I have been to it, but never with someone who has family there and I think it would be wonderful to visit with a "townie." This is the cemetery in my town that most of the town fathers are buried in. This isn't her family plot, which I will be going to with er soon I hope, but a town cemetery. It is small and quite old, by American standards. My kids find it creepy, so I am looking forward to going with someone who will not want to run out as soon as we get under a large, shadow-providing tree.

Kath
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Berlin-Bob on Saturday 15 September 07 07:33 BST (UK)
There are some more topics about this here

Topic: RootsChat Topics: Graveyards, Gravestones, Gravestone Symbols, etc.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,203252.0.html

Bob
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: KathMc on Saturday 15 September 07 12:23 BST (UK)
Bob,

Thanks for the link. I am reading with great interest. I have been lucky myself, as I haven't come across any stones in bad condition. And I have sent all the links to my friend, for her to make her decision. I am also going to suggest she speak with the cemetery association, if she hasn't already. They might have some ideas, or rules about it all.

Kath
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: peteseaton on Thursday 11 October 07 00:26 BST (UK)
this is my mums (1973)

so ill have problems then
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: KathMc on Thursday 11 October 07 00:33 BST (UK)
My friend actually spoke to a cemetery person, who told her to use bleach in water and a gentle brush. I would be so hesitant. Some of those old stones you just rub and it looks like the stone face itself is coming off. I think if it ever comes down to it fo rme, I would try a paper rubbing of the stone to get the info. At least then, if/when the stone decays, there would be an accurate record of it.

Kath
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: mshrmh on Thursday 11 October 07 11:31 BST (UK)
I recently went round a cemetery where a number of stones had been refurbished by attaching a stone plate with a new engraving of the wording. Presumably the old wording had worn and these new plates (within the frame of the existing stone) preserved the old stone while also giving the original inscription in a legible form. Has anyone else come across these?
The cemetery is council-run, still in use, the graves concerned probably late 19th-early 20th century.
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: annieoburns on Thursday 11 October 07 13:43 BST (UK)
The stone plaque is an idea I have thought of.  My family stone dates to 1826 and I could not read it but luckily a record of the inscription was made many years ago.  It is also tilting forward and has had some splash of paint on it, vandalism?  The descendants of the person who set up this stone must be several hundreds at this stage so how do you establish your right to have remedial work done. Noone could say they now 'own' the plot.
Anne
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: mshrmh on Thursday 11 October 07 14:32 BST (UK)
Hi Anne - I agree tracing "ownership" may be impractical. It could be that the cemetery's authority (church, local council etc) would have some views or guidelines on what you could do if you were to approach them. Perhaps you could "plant" a laminated notice by the headstone if they were agreeable stating your idea and asking to be contacted if there are nearer relatives, giving a date and perhaps a neutral address  eg the cemetery authority or the masons you would use for the work.
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Guy Etchells on Thursday 11 October 07 18:37 BST (UK)
The ownership of a gravestone belongs to the person who inherits it not to all the descendants of the original owner.

If wills are left the asset will be left to a specific person or will be included in a clause that covers "remaining assets".
If the owner died intestate then the assets are inherited in set proportions.

In most cases the remainder is either left to the spouse or children.

This means that in most cases the possible current owners of a gravestone will be within a relatively small group of people rather than hundreds.
Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Windsor87 on Thursday 11 October 07 19:31 BST (UK)
My mother used her shoe. Worked. So when can I expect the police?

I don't buy this whole heirs and successors business. If the stone has been allowedto degenerate into a bad state, I'd say that the 'owners' have given up their claim. Therefore, I will retain my unofficial right to clean any stone I so wish so long as it is evident that I'm not infringing on any family burial plot. I would, ofcourse, be careful not to destroy the stone. The incident with the shoe was simply a very thick layer of moss which easily brushed off. I know that I'm not imposing on anyones burial ground because that part of the cemetery is no longer used. One row after my line of graves there is a very steep fall! The stones in question were erected in 1838, 1890 and 1910. The last was erected by my great great grandmother. My grandfather, 'heir and successor' didn't even know that the site existed. That is three generations of his family lying side by side.

Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: KathMc on Thursday 11 October 07 21:30 BST (UK)
I can't argue with Windsor87's logic. As long as there is no damage done, I would be thrilled to find a stone already cleaned off for me. My mother would be one of the "heirs" to a number of plots and she's never been or hasn't been since a child. One of her cousins has the deed to one of the plots, bought in 1880s, and he's never been. I'm the only one in the family who has gone.

Kath
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Jayson on Monday 15 October 07 15:14 BST (UK)
I agree with Widsors87's common sense approach. The "hairs & successors" business may well be correct but in reality does anyone really comply with this when approaching historical monuments? If they do, I cannot see any evidence of it. If the happenings near where I live are anything to go by then the opposite it true. Trying to establish the identity of the rightful "hairs & successors" of graves whose occupants have long since been removed by the passage of time from the consciousness of successive generations, if there were any successive generations to succeed, seems like an impractical if not impossible task.

Nowadays people outside our circle of interest are far more concerned with the difficulties of everyday life to concern themselves with someone removing a lump of moss from a stone with the heel of their shoe. I think all of us here would be delighted that our forebear's monument has been recorded for perpetuity as long as the method adopted doesn't damage the monument or environment.

Jayson
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Guy Etchells on Monday 15 October 07 18:45 BST (UK)
A very common sense approach which I suggest you use when a thief steals your car etc.
Nobody will care except you when you find out but hey that does not matter as the thief got what he/she wanted.

The rules and laws of society are put in place to protect the members of society whether they are present or not. That is why we cannot scratch another's car with a key, even though we think we are creating art.

One cannot absolve oneself from blame by claiming one did not know who the car belonged to or it would have been difficult to find the owners before one scratched the car.

There is a code in many areas of many countries that states-

"Leave no trace, leave what you find just as you found it.
Take only pictures, leave only the lightest of footprints, bring back only memories."

To do anything else is anti-social.

Unfortunately we live in a selfish world that does not understand this concept.
Cheers
Guy




Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: meles on Monday 15 October 07 18:52 BST (UK)
I'm sorry Guy - I do not believe there is a link with theft or vandalism.

If you find a grave that is part of your family and you treat it with decency and care and clean it carefully, this is not vandalism.

If it's got to that state, then the owners have abandoned it.

meles
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: ricky1 on Monday 15 October 07 19:04 BST (UK)
Hi

To be honest I have been in many graveyards over the years looking for relatives graves, and have seen lots of people cleaning grave stones of their beloved one's. I would have said the police have got better thing to do with their time, than going around nicking people for cleaning head stones, and removing a bit of moss or muck from them.

ricky
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Jayson on Tuesday 16 October 07 14:50 BST (UK)
With respect Guy, I'm afraid I cannot identify the correlation between the recording of gravestones & vandalism. Your definition of vandalism is obviously very different from my understanding of what the word means.

In some cases, all that exits now to show monuments ever existed in the first place are transcriptions made by antiquarians who had had the foresight to realise that perhaps these epitaphs would not always be accessible for future generations to study. Monuments/gravestones & their epitaphs & iconography form a unique part of our social heritage illuminating society's attitude towards death, & their significance is not just recognised by the genealogical world, but also by historians & archaeologists as an important historical record which should be preserved. Monuments are under constant threat from natural decay, nefarious vandalism and destruction on an official level, which my family has had experience of.

Our ancestors erected gravestones so their memory could be carried forth from one generation to the next. Some of our older monuments are rapidly decaying and therefore need to be rescued from an attitude which promotes inertia and complacency. To do anything less is an injustice for which future generations will not thank us for.

Am I really guilty of anti-social behaviour for endeavouring to clean & transcribe my ancestor's memorial? I don't think so. And I reject the inference that I am most firmly.  ::)

I am now going to burn my soap box  ;D

Jayson
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Guy Etchells on Tuesday 16 October 07 17:16 BST (UK)
My definition of vandalism is doing something that interferes with personal or public property.

All gravestones are owned by somebody.
If we do not know who owns the gravestone we do not know what their preception of how that gravestone should be appear is.
They may take the view as many do that it is more respectful to allow nature to slowly reclaim the stone by allowing moss and/or lichen to cover it than the stark nudity of a cleaned stone. (Ashes to ashes dust to dust).
Some people actually welcome the reclaiming of the plot by nature as it reflects the reclaiming of the deceased body below the ground back to nature.
It is part of the way of the world.

We do not have the right to impose our perceptions on them by interfering with their property.
Moss does not grow overnight, they may have been enthusiastically watching that moss grow in the way some allow ivy to cover their houses.

That is the point.
Some people take the view that a churchyard should be managed like a war cemetery with short mown grass and regulated plots, others prefer a gentler approach with a less formal look.

Therefore to inflict your views on another by removing moss from a gravestone that does not belong to you is simply wrong and indeed a form of vandalism.
Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: meles on Tuesday 16 October 07 17:32 BST (UK)
Guy

You make a good point which I had not considered before.

I think it's the word "vandalism" which is very emotive and may have upset some. "Vandalism" is deliberate damage. What people here are suggesting is good intentioned, although, as you say, not perhaps what the owners intended.

meles
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: ricky1 on Tuesday 16 October 07 17:45 BST (UK)
Hi Guy
So how do you go about family plots, you mean to say that you carnt clean your family plot cos of moss or muck on the headstone???. Even though you are more than likely to be buried there or have your ashes put in with your family.It's like saying you carnt cut the grass on a grave because it isn't your grass. I would rather see a nice kept graveyard with clean headstones and cut grass, than see one that has been left to rack and ruin. Lots of graveyards I have been to the parish council carnt even afford to cut the grass, but it is nice to see a well kept grave.
I made a promise to my father before he died that I would tend the family plot, and up to now have done so, and God help anyone who tried to stop me from doing it

ricky
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Guy Etchells on Tuesday 16 October 07 18:04 BST (UK)
Ricky if you read my words you will see I was not writing about family plots, but about a gravestone where the ownership was unknown.
With a family plot one know who the owner of the plot would be and would talk to them about their wishes of how that plot was kept.

It is not difficult finding out who the rightful owner is in a known family as a grave stone is heritable property and inherited by set procedures either through will or intestate rules.

Having said that even family members must abide by the law with regard to lichens that may colonize a gravestone as many are protected by law.
Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: ricky1 on Tuesday 16 October 07 18:18 BST (UK)
Hi Guy

I think we could go round and round in circles about who own's what gravestone, but as far as I am concerned my ancestors bought and paid for the grave stone or plot,and we have both, one side has a plot and the otherside of the family has grave stones,  and I think it is my duty as next of kin to keep it clean and neat for the next generation of my family. If it means removing moss etc so be it, as there are plenty of other things it can spread itself over.


ricky
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Necromancer on Tuesday 16 October 07 18:31 BST (UK)
Quote
“This is not the age of reason, this is the age of flummery, and the day of the devious approach.

Reason’s gone into the backrooms where it works to devise means by which people can be induced to emote in the desired direction.”

John Wyndham, J. (1960), The Trouble With Lichen. Penguin Books. pg. 91

 8)
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: KathMc on Wednesday 17 October 07 21:28 BST (UK)
I've kind of stayed away for a bit as it got a little hot in this room for me. Didn't mean to get anyone riled starting this topic. funny how something that seems so uncontroversial can get quite a discussion going.

Kath
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: ricky1 on Wednesday 17 October 07 21:53 BST (UK)
Hi Kath

I apologize if it seems to have got a bit hot on your thread. Was just that you asked about cleaning moss etc of gravestones, and I think some people on here have given some good advice on how to do it. Whether you use any of the idea's that have been suggested is up to you. I can only go by my experience on how I have cleaned off several family graves stones in the past.
As for how you stand legally about removing moss etc, as there might be someone lurking around the graveyard trying to catch you doing it, that is up to you if you want to take the risk :).
I know this bit is a bit of topic, but was driving down a street near me and noticed the house roofs, some had moss etc on them and some had new roofs. Was just wandering if the family who owned the propery or the person who replaced the roof got into trouble, because he had removed the roof with the moss etc on it. ???

regards

ricky
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Jayson on Wednesday 17 October 07 21:56 BST (UK)
Sorry Kath! I suppose we are all very passionate in our beliefs.  Though I believe there are more important things happening in the world at present to be passionate about.
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: KathMc on Wednesday 17 October 07 22:12 BST (UK)
No need for apology, I didn't mean to start such a sticky topic. I don't mind the thread being "hijacked" as it can often lead to very interesting conversations.

Jayson, there are some things I am very passionate about also that might not seem important to others, so I understand that.

Ricky, you are a pot stirrer, you are. I'm going to watch myself around the likes of you.  8)

Kath
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: ricky1 on Wednesday 17 October 07 22:29 BST (UK)
Kath

Me a pot stirrer, I have been called alot of thing's in my time , but never one of them. Its just I like a good discussion, and I must admit you have a good one going on this thread ;D.

regards

ricky
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: annieoburns on Wednesday 17 October 07 23:04 BST (UK)
I think I chipped in a bit about finding very old stone in precarious state and paint splash on it.  Also inscription is unreadable tho luckily have a copy of it.  It is tilting at angle of 45degrees and feel something should be done.  Another even older one is beyond retrieving.

There is a problem in that graves plots might only belong to you for so many years and then revert to authority etc.  Another very old family grave was built over  with a community centre on top.  Very sad for my father when he came from afar on his annual visit with brush and bleach.  I presume stone is parked around wall somewhere.

Very good topic as it end of line in lot of research to locate grave and pay repects.

Anne
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: tonyg87 on Wednesday 23 April 08 09:28 BST (UK)
There is a organic cleaner called 'Wet and Forget which is used for roofs and pathways. It is applied with a pump action bottle similar to window cleaners etc. takes up to six months to gradually clean it up. No scratching or scouring needed.
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: bilsat on Saturday 17 May 08 06:38 BST (UK)
We traced the grave of my Great,Greatgrandads grave in a disused church yard, we hisided to clean the stone so returned with water,brushes and a bottle of  Silit bang! this cleaned it up and we then contacted the makers to tell them how good it worked, they replied that under no circumstances to use this product on gravestones, no reason was given so it was a good job that we used a lot of water with it!!(http://)see the before and after pics...
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Guy Etchells on Saturday 17 May 08 08:11 BST (UK)
Cleaning gravestone should be left to those who know what they are doing and understand the implications for the consequences of their actions.
Apart from potentially damaging the stone you could be prosecuted under the 1981 Act.

You may wish to remove your admission of an illegal offence.
Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981

"369.Paragraph 11 amends section 13 of the 1981 Act. It amends the law in relation to the protection of wild plants by introducing offences of recklessness and of knowingly causing or permitting an act to be carried out. It also lists certain qualifications which must be met by a person (accused of having committed an offence related to wild plants), who wishes to use the statutory defence provided under section 13(3) of the 1981 Act. The key changes effected by paragraph 11 are:

    * a new offence of recklessly carrying out acts which are prohibited by section 13(1);
    * additional protection for Schedule 8 plants. The new provision at section 13(1)(a)(ii) makes it an offence, in particular, to pick or destroy seeds or spores which are attached to such plants. The collection of seed may therefore take place only under licence and with the permission of the owner or occupier of the land on which they are growing. It should be noted that the term "wild plant" as used in the 1981 Act includes fungi and non-vascular plants (bryophytes, lichens, stoneworts and algae), hence the reference to spores as well as seeds;
    * a revision of the existing statutory defence that an act, which results in unlawful damage to wild plants, was the incidental result of a lawful operation. The changes under this sub-paragraph provide that, if the unlawful damage caused by an unlawful act is the incidental result of a lawful operation or activity, a defence can now only be relied upon where a person took reasonable precautions for the purpose of avoiding carrying out the unlawful act or that the person did not and could not reasonably have foreseen that such action would result in an offence being committed and that steps were taken to minimise the damage once it became apparent; and
    * the new offence of knowingly causing or permitting another person to carry out an act which is unlawful in relation to wild plants. This principle is already found elsewhere in the 1981 Act but has now also been inserted into section 13.
"
Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: aghadowey on Saturday 17 May 08 11:23 BST (UK)
I was in the grocery store a few weeks ago and overheard two women talking. 'A' mentioned that she noticed that 'B' 's family had recently erected a new family headstone and was surprised because she knew that previous wasn't that old. 'B' answered that her brother had cleaned old headstone with some sort of acid and it had to be replaced as it had been totally ruined!
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: KathMc on Saturday 17 May 08 12:00 BST (UK)
I hope B's brother paid for it.  :o Those things aren't cheap!!
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: willow154 on Saturday 17 May 08 14:40 BST (UK)
Interesting debate.
I didn't realise it was an offence to remove the moss and lichen.
I went a couplde of years to a large churchyard, in a city in the midlands, to look for the graves of my husband's ancestors.
I managed to find three together, but they were overgrown with moss. I talked to the verger who was at the church and he was delighted I had taken the trouble to try to find the graves and went to get me a sweeping brush - he said they felt that it was important to help families locate their loved ones, and ancestors. I did ask for permission to remove the moss, and nothing was said about it being an offence.
The sweeping brush didn't really do much, so I did carefully use the edge of my shoe, and an old matalan card which I had with me.
The card was brilliant - left no mark at all - it just glided, and sliced off the moss. I would never had used any chemicals or anything, only water.
(Be careful, though - I had problems with my eyes that summer, which the doctor thought was hay fever, but it carried on - I wonder now if it was the spores from the moss - wear goggles!)
If it had looked as if it was doing any damage I would have stopped straight away.
It was wonderful to find these graves, and led me onto  further research, and as I know this particular family were very proud of their family line, etc I personally feel they would have been really pleased I found them!
I do understand that no-one wants an old churchyard ruined and made to look modern - too trim and proper, but surely there is a balance!
Sorry, if I'm opening up the argument again, but where is balance these days!
I must go back and see what the grave is like now - it still fitted in with the general feel of the graveyard.
After reading this thread now I'm not sure I would do it again, but I feel really sad that I might not be re-united in special way to those people I have very much got to know personally through hours of research and study.
Paulene :)
Sorry, Kath.



Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: woodturner on Tuesday 20 May 08 12:57 BST (UK)
I don't have a suggestion for old gravestones, but anyone who may need to photograph Commonwealth war graves, I find that spraying the stone with clean water usually(but not always) highlights the wording enough to allow me to photograph the inscription. Having photographed several hundred stones over the past year this does little or no damage.
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: seahall on Tuesday 20 May 08 13:23 BST (UK)
Hi All

This link may help re: lichen etc.

http://www.thebls.org.uk/content/chlich.html

Sandy
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: willow154 on Tuesday 20 May 08 21:28 BST (UK)
Hi Sandy,
Is moss regarded in the same way - the stone I cleaned had no lichen, just moss.
In my own garden my husband cleans moss off our patio as it is slippery and it grows back quite quickly. I'm a bit confused as to whether they consider moss in the same way.
Is it best just to leave gravestones alone then if anything is on them?
Kind regards,
Paulene
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: seahall on Tuesday 20 May 08 23:41 BST (UK)
Hi Paulene

I would image so. Sometimes I see letters of inscriptions lying on the ground.
I try not to distrub gravestones (that's why my piccies have dead flower
head's on) as I do not feel right about it.

Just my personal view.  Everyone to their own way.

Sandy

Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: willow154 on Tuesday 20 May 08 23:48 BST (UK)
Thanks Sandy.
 I have to say I didn't realise it would take so long for the lichen to grow back; I assumed it was like the moss and grow back very quickly.
Food for thought!
Paulene :)
P.S. Is there a site which tells you which grayeyards have been transcribed in Northants? Just wondered if the one opposite where I live has been done, or not.
 Promise I'll be more careful, now :)
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: seahall on Tuesday 20 May 08 23:52 BST (UK)
Hi Paulene

If you go to NFHS link here http://www.northants-fhs.org/

On left hand side click Publications then it should show M.I.'s then just click booklet.

They are adding to them all the time.

Sandy
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: willow154 on Tuesday 20 May 08 23:57 BST (UK)
Thanks, Sandy - that was quick! :)
It doesn't look as if it has been done - in fact I can't see any of the ones in this benefice1
Must make further inquiries - reading about all the work you've done made me think iit might be a useful contribution to make for those looking in our area.
Once again, thanks, Sandy.
Paulene :)
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: ricky1 on Wednesday 21 May 08 00:04 BST (UK)
Hi Willow

Might be worth keeping an eye on this site, sadly nothing done in Northants yet

http://www.interment.net/uk/eng/index.htm

ricky
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: seahall on Wednesday 21 May 08 00:10 BST (UK)
Hi Paulene

All transcribers where ever they are or whatever they are doing to assist others are in-valuable.

From the minute they start copying any original work and then putting into the
public domain means it help others in their research.

Here on Rootschat of course are also the other side of in-valuable people as well
assisting others through documented records and information not available to all.

I have benefited an awful lot myself here.

Having been up since 6.00a.m. time for bed.

Nite  :)

Sandy







Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: willow154 on Wednesday 21 May 08 00:17 BST (UK)
Night, Sandy.
Ricky1 thanks for the site - can't believe how few there are listed for Beeston - went there recently to look for my husband's rellies. Was really impressed at how well tended it was. Didn't find them, though :'(
Paulene :)
Will give this some thought - went to take some photos for a rootschatter, in a village about 20 miles from here -  really enjoyed looking.
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Nick29 on Wednesday 21 May 08 09:11 BST (UK)
Before attempting cleaning, I use paper and old fashioned wax crayons to make a 'rubbing' of the lettering, often that is successful and gives all the information needed.

Also, when visiting a graveyard in Suffolk with an overseas researcher, the afternoon sunlight made the stone much easier to read than the mornings shadows.  Always take a good torch (flashlight) along so that you can shine on to the lettering from different angles - sometimes helps.

Best wishes, SM ...

I take my digital camera, and photograph the stone from several different angles.  If you have computer software that will do simple editing (e.g. image enhancement, brightness and contrast correction, etc), you can often make out lettering that can't easily be seen with the naked eye.  I use ACDSee Photo Editor (http://store.acdsee.com/DRHM/servlet/ControllerServlet?SiteID=acd&Locale=en_US&Action=Content&pbPage=ACDsee_bundle_pound&pgm=12507400&Currency=GBP) for this because it's so easy to use.  You can get even better results if you have a friend with a powerful flashlight who can illuminate the stone from different angles when you're photographing.

In the past I've taken pictures of all the stones in small village churchyards, because it doesn't take a minute, and it avoids making return trips when you uncover a new part of the family tree.

Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: mare on Wednesday 21 May 08 09:13 BST (UK)
I must also thank you Sandy for the lichen link pm'ed to me earlier this month, it has really made me think differently about lichen covered old gravestones. Still haven't investigated whether any protection applies in NZ, but am sorry I hadn't read through the views expressed here earlier. I have tended to assume that 'neglected' graves have no visiting kin to care for them  :-\

mare
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Isles on Wednesday 21 May 08 09:43 BST (UK)
On the question of cleaning gravestones, if the inscription is unreadable due to lichen the question arises does one leave them be or attempt a gentle cleaning.  If left alone, in time the face of the stone will begin to spall and the inscription is lost for ever.  Several years ago a friend and I recorded and photographed all the inscriptions in our local churchyard (disused).  Since then, quite a few of the inscriptions have disappeared.
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Jayson on Wednesday 21 May 08 10:01 BST (UK)
There are two headstones in Devon which I went to see a couple of years ago.  One of the stones in question had a beautiful rose bush right in front of it, and the stone itself was covered in lichen.  In spite of all the obstacles time and nature presented, I was able to obtain the details without adopting any harsh methods, which of course I wouldn't even think about doing.  Although I do confess to having used water in the past.

The other stone - in the same churchyard in Bere Ferrers and opposite the main one - was completely illegible.  However when the sun moved position what was invisible became wonderfully clear.

Jayson
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: drakhan1 on Friday 30 March 12 10:19 BST (UK)
I am going up to Norfolk along with my wife  to inter the ashes of her sister.
On the gravestone are the names of her parents and grandparents. They are unreadable but my wife knew were the grave was and i researched the family tree to get the details.
We are not going to clean the gravestone as there are no letters to bring up.
We are just replacing headstone.
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: ThomasJames1918 on Saturday 19 May 12 10:07 BST (UK)
Hi
Can someone help me with a question, sometime I am going to go down to my great uncles and aunties’ grave to try and clean of the moss and other dirt. Does anyone know what I can use to remove it maybe a spray or should I just use hot water with some brushes.Thanks

Thomas   
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: seahall on Saturday 19 May 12 11:26 BST (UK)
Hi Thomas.

This may be of help.

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0mk7/

Sandy
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: ThomasJames1918 on Saturday 19 May 12 12:23 BST (UK)
Thanks for that I can’t make up my mind if I should use some kind of bleach as I don’t know what type of stone it is. Or should I just stick with soapy water

Thomas
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: JenB on Saturday 19 May 12 12:34 BST (UK)
I can’t make up my mind if I should use some kind of bleach

No, no, no! Never use bleach!! Or any other proprietary cleaner come to that. You could well do irreparable damage to the stone.

The very most you should use is some water.

If unsure, please let well alone! Please bear in mind that gravestones can be fragile, and any sort of cleaning can possibly cause damage.



Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: ThomasJames1918 on Saturday 19 May 12 12:43 BST (UK)
Oh ok thanks i am going down there today to clean it. I will take plenty of Water!

Thomas 
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Guy Etchells on Saturday 19 May 12 16:13 BST (UK)
Be very careful if the stone hosts lichens (as the photo seems to show) you hold yourself open to a fine and or imprisonment for up to two years.

It is now considered a serious offence to destroy protected species.
Cheers
Guy
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: stanmapstone on Saturday 19 May 12 17:09 BST (UK)
Cleaning gravestones so as to not cause damage is not a job to be undertaken by an amateur. Where cleaning is felt to be necessary for an inscription to be made legible, this can be achieved by using a soft brush and plain water. A few lichen species are specially protected by law and collecting (or damaging) them is an offence.
Have a look at
http://www.thebls.org.uk/content/chlich.html
and http://www.ctgravestones.com/Conservation/cleaning.htm

Stan
Title: Re: Cleaning Old Gravestones
Post by: Calverley Lad on Tuesday 19 June 12 22:06 BST (UK)
Bleach is an alkaline solution, this 'eats' into some materials.
(I once tried cleaning some paving stones in the garden, ended up replacing as face had been corroded.)
 Brian