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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Warwickshire => Topic started by: Yegvard on Tuesday 11 September 07 11:44 BST (UK)
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Hi Folks,
I'm trying to establish if there is a link for BRANT between those of Wooten Wawen and those of Kings Norton, Worcestershire.
The info I have is a William BRANT was born around 1771, not sure where, but was buried in Kings Norton, WOR. And a Samuel BRANT born around 1765 who married a Martha ARNOLD, of Wooten Wawen.
Any information at all would be useful.
Cheers
Mike
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According to the NBI there is no William Brant buried in King's Norton (St.Nicholas).In fact there are only 2 Brants buried there altogether so it doesn't seem like this is where the family came from.The only Brant in Wootten Wawen was Samuel d.1824 aged 83.What is your source info?
Could the name have been Brand originally?
Jim
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Hi Jim,
Thanks for replying. The burial info was sent to me, but I suspect it was from the BMSGH transcription of either the burial register or the MI's.
May 2nd 1849, William BRANT 78 years
Jan 26th 1850 Anne BRANT aged 83 years.
There are numerous census records and a directory listing for the name. So I'm happy that at least for the 19th century it was BRANT.
The marriage of Samuel and Martha was taken from the Wythall One Place Genealogical Study, which is usually very good. There is also a young Martha BRANT in Kings Norton, born around 1823.
According to the IGI there was a John BRANT who married Anne SARSONS in 1774 in Wooten.
Hence me thinking that there could have been a link.
Cheers
Mike
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If Samuel & Martha married in Wythall (not Wootten Wawen as you suggested) then they could be related.St.Nicholas's served Wythall & looking at the King's Norton BMD there are several references to Wythall in the Parish books.I'm still not convinced re. the Wootten Wawen connection.
Do you have any specific King's Norton/Wythall dates I can lookup.
Jim
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Jim,
The start of all this was a Martha BRANT marriage to Frederick CLULEE around 1841. Anything on that marriage would be a bonus. (Frederick's mum and dad were James and Mary.) I suspect this marriage took place after the 1841 census, as there is a 18 year old Martha living with William (70) and Ann (75), born in WOR. see below.
In the 1841 there is a George BRANT, baker, in "The Village" not born in WOR. (Just discovered, 1851 born Droitwich). Wife Charlotte, born in WOR, both aged "40".
Next door but one to my Benjamin HANDS in 1841 are 20 year old Solomon and Mary BRANT. Both born in WOR. Presumably married 1838 - 1840
Although described as in "The Village", in 1841, now it would be described as "Wharf Road", leading to the canal. Isaac BRANT, 45, boatman, not born in WOR with wife Ann, 45, born in WOR. (Just discovered: The 1851 has Isaac as being born in Kings Norton.) So a marriage around 1815 -1821 would be a good beet.
Next door is William BRANT, coal dealer, born in WOR, see above.
As you say, with the new 1851 info, Wooten Wawen, could be a red herring. (And George being born in Droitwich).
Clearly the enumerator either didn't know his geography or very badly explained the census. The registrar was Isaac CLULEE, Frederick's 1st cousin, builder of 2 churches, church warden and postmaster.
Any help would be appreciated.
Mike
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Is "The Village" you refer to King's Norton or somewhere else.
Is what you're looking for something like this:
Burial info.
William Brant 1849
Ann Brant 1850
Marriage info.
Samuel Brant = Martha Arnold date not given
Isaac Brant 1815-21
Birth info.
Martha Brant c.1823
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Don't know if you're still out there, but I am Graham Brant, and William (b.1771) was my great-great-great=great grandfather. He is indeed buried in Kings Norton graveyard, I have a photograph of his gravestone. He moved to Kings Norton in the early 1800's from Beaudesert near Henley-in-Arden with his sons Isaac and George and his daughters Anne and Dinah. The Brants of Beaudesert go back to 1736 and are obviously connected with the Wooten Wawen Brants just down the road from Henley. A lot of the information in the censuses is wrong, particularly George coming from Droitwich !!
I have researched the family in great depth and would be pleased to let you have any info I can. Cheers G.B.
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hello everyone
I am the great great niece of Martha Brant and Frederick Clulee (my x2Gt Uncle). Yegvard was asking on my behalf and it was me he probably got the info from regarding the gravestones. I visited there before they moved them in around 1988. Would love to know more about Martha Brants family.....
Please contact
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Hi - Good to hear from you. As I am Martha's great-great nephew I suppose we are distant relatives. You may already know some of the following but here goes:
Martha was the daughter of Isaac Brant and Ann Rebecca Smith. She had 2 sisters Ann & Ruth and 4 brothers, Abraham, Saul, Michael and Solomon, who was my great-great grandfather. Solomon turns up in the Criminal Registers (1 month in chokey for assaulting a policeman - Naughty !)
Her father Isaac was one of four children brought to Kings Norton from Beaudesert in the early 1800's by their father William and his wife Ann. William and Ann's gravestone is one of the only 2 still extant in St. Nicholas' churchyard.
The Stratford canal had just been completed as far as Henley and William presumably used it to make the trip to Kings Norton where he became a coal dealer at the wharf in Wharf Lane, living at no.75 with Isaac who worked as a boatman. His other son George worked as a miller and shopkeeper and helped to run a beer garden by the canal. William's 2 daughters were both married in King Norton in 1830, 3 years after William was prosecuted for driving his coal cart without reins !
William was born in 1772 (not 1771) in Beaudesert, the son of Joseph Brant and Martha Johnson. Joseph (b.1743) was the son of William Brant who married Mary Hemming in 1736. The trail peters out there.
The Beaudesert Brants were simple folk, agricultural labourers and lime burners. One of them, Williams brother John, was the toll-gate keeper on the Stratford Rd in Shirley, less than a mile from where I now live. Apart from him William was the only Brant to achieve any sort of affluence, although while he was in Beaudesert he was at one time decribed as a pauper.
Martha therefore seems to have done well to pull Frederick Clulee, who looks to have become a successful builder ( I see that there is a Clulee Construction Co. still running ). One of the Clulee Clan, Benjamin, seems to have been briefly involved in the coal business down at the wharf after Martha's father Isaac died in 1865 and the lease on the coalyard expired.
I assume that you are descended from one of Fredericks siblings. There seem to have been no shortage of Clulees in Kings Norton judging by the list of monumental inscriptions for St Nicholas churchyard. I was interested by your reference to the moving of graves in 1988. I have been puzzled for some time that, although no less than 36 Brants have been interred there, only 2 graves are still avilable for inspection. I know that grave are being re-used these days, with the original occupant being re-installed lower down, and I assumed that this is what had happened. It seems that you know better.
Another matter which has had me scratching my head is the preponderance of Jewish given names in the Brant family. Everything from Abraham, Solomon Isaac, Saul, Benniah and Boaz to Reuben, Rebecca and Dinah. Although Brant is an Ashkenazi Jewish surname, common in Poland, I cannot imagine how Jewish immigrant Brants would end up in Beaudesert, although there are plenty of Brants down in Berkshire (Arborfield) with Jewish names. I notice a sprinkling of Isaacs and Benjamins amongst your forbears and wonder if you have any thoughts on this ...
Anyway, I hope I have shed some light on Martha's origins for you,( I can bore for England on this subject ). Nothing exciting, just a long line of straw-chewing yokels and horny-handed sons of the soil, like most people. I have come to realise. The Jewish question is intriguing though.
All of the details of the Beaudesert Brants were culled from a book by William Cooper called Records of Beaudesert. There is a copy in Henley-in-Arden library if you want to take a look. There are also offshoots of Brants in Wooten Wawen, Preston Bagot, Ullenhall, Aston Cantlow and many other places in Worcestershire and Warwickshire, but life is too short .....
Let me know about the grave relocation thing, plus any thoughts on possible Jewish heritage.
Cheers- G.B.
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The William Cooper book Records of Beaudesert, and another one Wootton Wawen - its history and Records have been put onto CD.
They are available from Midlands Historical Data www.midlandshistoricaldata.org.
Can't remember price, bought mine about five years ago.
Susan :)
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Thank you for the nice long reply... Just a query but who did William marry? Ann xxxx?
Anyway back to your questons... No I had no idea about the family! Just that the name was in the parish register in St Nicholas Church married to a Clulee. Started the Clulee family tree quest in 1987. Always wondered about some family stories told by my grandfather William Henry Clulee.... anyway, i made a mistake. I am actually descended from Thomas Clewly (married Ann Hobbis), our common ancenstor. He was my x5 grandfather. His son James Clewly (married Mary Hyde), had Frederick Clulee. It was around 1820 ish that name became established with the spelling that it is today, Clulee. Isaac Clulee and Frederick were first cousins. Isaac was the registrar of births, deaths and marriages from around 1855 - 1882. Josiah Hands his son-in-law took over the job when he died. Isaac was my x3 gt grandfather.... so I hope that clarifies it all! This info according to FTM! So yes we are distant cousins on the same request from different angles.
Anyway regarding the gravestones.... I visited St Nicholas in 1988/9 all the gravestones were intact! Especially behind the back of the church and there are stone plaques in the church to members of the family. It was later on that I visited (sometime in the late 1990's) and found that the gravestones behind the church had disappeared and queried this with the parish council. They replied that they had removed the gravestones as the graveyard was now hosting the local drug addicts and the stones were being vandalised. To prevent 'accidents' and to deter the druggies the graveyard had been demolished or the stones reassigned. (Now using some of them as path stones to my horror- some of the stones had letters/numbers nailed on in lead like Benjamin Clulee's gravestone - so that will not last and the inscription has probably disappeared). I believe that whatever wonderful volunteers there are recorded the inscriptions of the stones - it has been done but I have not viewed the list yet. I took some photographs on my original visit but they were Clulee's, of which, Isaac and Elizabeth Clulee, if I remember rightly are near the front of the church door, a prime spot I'm told! - although other surnames were known at the time like the Pritchetts, Brant, Neasom, Chinn, Fletcher, Hands etc all married Clulee's I didn't recognise the fornames, so presumed they were distant relatives but of no importance. I do not have much information on these members - call it being a virginal family tree historian. LOL. I had no idea just how small Kings Norton was during the 19th Century. Especially regarding these key families in Kings Norton - I now know better and would have paid more attention! But like many things, opportunities are lost and some you gain. For example I met a lady who was 92 (born 1898) at the time still living in KN. Her mother used to take two of her children to birmingham city on the train every 6 months when they were very young from KN at the turn of the century. It was a real treat! KN is now very much part of Birmingham as you well know.
As regarding the Jewish connection no idea. I have heard some families were transported from Europe for their skills; like the Italians for their gardening skills, located still in the West Country. Generations later they now supply peppers to the supermarket chains having carried down their skills through the generations .... maybe this is why they came across. A hell of a journey from Poland! I never thought about Benjamin as being jewish - but I do know that names were mainly gleaned from 'Royal' Fashion and the Bible - Mary Ann, James, Charles, William, Thomas - they drive me nuts... haven't come across any other names like Solomon, Saul in the family etc.
Isaac Clulee would have been the centre of all gossip and probably knew most of the villagers who attended church. Orchestrating the BMD meant he probably had some hand in the Census for Kings Norton too ... including his contacts for building two churches as well, the parish councellors and church attenders - his grandson Isaac fell out with his father, James Isaac (his son) and he ended up in Bristol where I was born. Although Isaac Clulee (sometimes in documents as James Isaac) died in Los Angeles USA in 1922, abandoning his wife and 4 children in 1907 with allusions of sending for them when he was settlled WW1 clearly didn't help.
Sorry I cannot of be any more help as you have been. I will probably ask you further details as they occur to me. I hope you don't mind. Look forward to hearing from you.
Many thanks for your detailed reply. Please can you give me Ann's surname if you have it.
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Sorry I can't help with Ann's maiden name, as the marriage does not appear in the Beaudesert parish registers. I can only say that the union must have taken place between 1790 and 1795, probably in a nearby parish. I have spent a lot of time in the Warwick Records Office poring over microfilm, but have only succeeded in making my brain hurt !
The Jewish thing may be a red herring; there was a family of Brants down the river at Offenham near Evesham who may be a more likely origin of the family, particularly as Martha's father Isaac actually died in Offenham. I have traced them back to 1543 but have not been able to link them definitively to the Beaudesert Brants. They were certainly not Jewish as there were no Jews in England between 1280 and 1660.
I was interested in your remarks on the gravestones. I think I'll pop up to the Church Parish Office soon and interrogate them on the matter. If you have not visited recently you may not know that there is now a modern visitors centre adjacent to the church, located in the old Bull's Head public house. Tho Old Grammar School which stands in the church grounds won the BBC Restoration TV programme a few years ago and the money has been spent partly on these new facilities. If I discover anything of interest I'll post it here. I've only just discovered this forum so I'm still finding my feet.
Sorry I couldn't help with Ann's maiden name.
Regards, G.B.
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Hi Guys,
Just keeping an eye on you. ;)
I thought I would see what goodies the Wythal Index, http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~wythallindex/index.htm, might hold. So I clicked, randomly on an Ann BRANT, 1807. To my great surprise her husband was James DEDICOAT, marriage 1830. Following the hot link to his parents, they were Samuel & Elizabeth.
One of Samuel's other children was Elizabeth DEDICOAT, who was born in 1812, and was the wife of Isaac CLULEE. My Josiah HANDS father-in-law.
I haven't done a tree, but does that give one or both of you two doses of genes from a family line????
Graham, have you checked St. Martin's, Birmingham for the missing marriage? Lots of people 'popped' in to Brum and 'popped' out again.
Cheers
Mike
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Many thanks to both of you - have updated the tree. I did know about the BBC restoration program but not the visitors centre in Kings Norton. I would be very interested to find out more too and look forward to any updates. Yegvard is a distant cousin - which i'm sure you have worked out. A gentleman and a scholar on the Family Tree! Look forward to hearing from you. X
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My family of Brant's all came from the Worcestershire area mainly Pershore. Graham Brant aka FREWIN has told me on another site that my Pershore Brant's are related to the King's Norton Brant's.
I have found a link before to the King's Norton line but can't remember who in my tree it was? I'll have to take a look.
I would love to know more about the Pershore Brant's but thus far have found no body who is directly linked to them.
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Hi
Sorry for delay in replying. Unfortunately I have no further information. I was just acting as an intermediary regarding the BRANTs.
Mike