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Family History Documents and Artefacts => Graveyards and Gravestones => Topic started by: Lady Di on Monday 10 September 07 22:29 BST (UK)
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I have just received these fantastic pictures of my 10 x great grandfather's grave site and memorial. They are inside a church so have been well preserved.
Unfortunately they are in Latin. I can undertstad bits and pieces but a complete transcript would be great if someone can read Latin please.
I have the following:
In memory of George Pike.....
assume wife is Margareta, daughter of Edward Woodcott of Ipswich
daughter Annan (Ann?) married William? Violet of Norfolk
daughter Cicely married Tho James of Hertford
daughter Mariam married Tho. Pritchard
something about Jacob Whitlocke (I know his dau Mercy/Mary married Sir James Whitlocke so maybe that's what it says??)
Dau Margareta married John Gore of London
....George ..... -???? (there was a son called George)
Elizabeth married Gregory Baker, then married John Crowch of Hertford.
George Pike died September 1658.
Anything that anyone can add, or correct my theory, would be appreciated
Thanks
Di
Oops - sorry they're so big
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Hi Lady Di
My husband has had a bit of a try to translate this for you, has got as far as
"In memory of George Pike born not far from here lies dead but will be restored to life unburdened asleep with...... Margareta daughter of Edward Woodcott of Ipswich from where three joyous daughters Annam .... Violet of Norfok (highborn wife) Ciceliam (Thomas James de Hartford) highborn wife and Mariam first wife of Thomas Pritchard"
As some of the words are hard to read he is struggling with the old script, however I have a friend who teaches Latin and I will phone her tonight and see if she can help.
Not sure if she is a Rootschatter, but I will get back to you about it anyway.
Bye from freezing Oz
Noells
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Blimey Di, think you had better start doing some serious saving for that trip back to England cos I think you will need to be here if you are actually going to claim the throne!! ;) ;D
Seriously though, beautiful monument and all fascinating stuff.
Linda.
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Thank you Noells, that's fantastic.
I didn't know anything about the "highborn wife" though. Do you or anyone know what that means exactly? ???
I have just heard (rumour at this stage) that George Pike was "Horse Master" for King George 1. That's probably one of those things that one can't even check so it will probably stay as a rumour for now. ::)
Anything additional that you can add Noells will be great and very much appreciated.
Linda I'm waiting for the Crown to offer to pay my way back to the homeland - unfortunately it could be a very long wait ;D
BTW - George Pike owned Sheene Manor in Meldreth/Melbourn just outside Royston - I just can't get away from Herts no matter which branch I research!! ::)
Thanks
Di
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Hi Di
I thought you were in England, but now see you are in NSW.
I phoned my friend tonight and she is willing to see what she can do to decipher and translate the tombstone.
I will email the link to her now and we will keep our fingers crossed.
Noells
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Hi Noells,
Thanks for contacting your friend. I do hope that she can help - my fingers are crossed also.
Sorry to hear that you have horrid weather "down south" - we've had 24deg and sunshine - bit of a trial but I'll try and put up with it ;D
Thanks
Di
:D
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My Latin's pretty rusty now but this is what I make of it.
In memory of George Pike, Squire whose remains lie buried not far from here, whose wife was Margaret, dau. of Edward Woodcott of Ipswich, by whom he had three daughters, Anna (wife of William Violet of Norfolk; Cicelia (wife of Thomas James of Hartford); and Mary (wife firstly of Thos. Pitchard Squire of Cambridge, then of Jacob Whitlocke, Squire, of Buckinghamshire).
After Margaret died [George] married Elizabeth Johan Gore, London, dau. of a soldier of little means [??]
The next bit I am not sure about...I think that George and Elizabeth had a son George Baker Starford who married Johan Crowch of Hertford
[George]Died in his sixty-seventh year
The other slab says the remains of George Pike were laid here 25 September 1658
Soon to be resurrected.
Isabel
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Thank you Isabel,
It is all starting to make sense now. I hadn't realised that George had actually married twice. That would account for the discrepancies I thought I had with the range of birthdates of his children. I believe that Ann Pike was born c. 1625 and the Violet/Pike marriage was in 1643. Then George's youngest daughter Elizabeth was born in 1638 ??? so I was beginning to think I had two generations - but maybe not ;D
I know the last bit says that (daughter) Elizabeth first married George Baker of Stanford (Nov 1661), then she married John Crowch of Hertford (Oct 1662). The Crowch line is my family.
Thanks also for George's age. I had no ide when he was born so that's a BIG bonus.
Yippee - another branch back to 1500's 8)
Many thanks for your help and time
Di
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I'm glad if that seems to make sense, however as I said my Latin is rusty (my old teacher is probaby turning in his grave right now!) and someone else may well correct me.
The lower part of the inscription says Georgiu et Elizabeth - George AND Elizabeth. Depending on when this monument was erected is it possible that Eliz. who married George Baker & then John Crowch was George Pike's widow rather than his daughter? As a second wife she could have been much younger than he was. Or maybe you have a birth record for his daughter Elizabeth? Maybe I'm talking through my hat..... I'd better away and do some housework instead!
Isabel
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It dosnt sound like a big deal but `Master of the Horse` was a very important post at court and meant that the holder had very close contact to the monarch, hence the reason Elizabeth The First appointed Lord Robert Dudley to the title when she became Queen!! ;) I am just wondering if what you describe as `Horse Master` could be the same thing.
Oooo, how exciting and if it is it shouldnt be so hard to check on.
Shall I have a word with Prince Charles about your fare back to England? He only needs to sell a couple more pots of Dutchy jam to raise the money. ;D ;)
Linda.
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Thanks Isabel - I'm only assuming that Elizabeth was his dau. but in the will of George Pike he mentions his daughter Elizabeth who was unmarried and under 21 at that time (pre 1658 when George died)
Elizabeth married Gregory in 1661 - she was a spinster, aged 22/23. She was a widow aged 24 when she married John Crowch.
I believe that part is correct - but will keep my options open at this stage.
Thanks for the Horse Master information Linda. Now that you mention the term "Master of the Horse" it does ring a bell. It certainly sounds like the same thing. I have googled for days trying to find any information about this but found nothing to substantiate the rumour - but then I didn't see the term "master of the horse either" ::) - so it's back to the drawing board with that one. :D
Thanks
Di
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I cant see him on this list Di but thought you may be interested!!
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=43902
Linda
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Thanks Linda, that is a very interesting article. It certainly sounds like an importand role - can't really imagine one of my lot that high up but stranger things have happened 8)
As you said, George's name wasn't mentioned but that article covered the time after the death of George. I tried to find an earlier list and when I searched for "george pike" Master of the horse" I actually found at least one article on the British History site. Unfortunately the article is only available to subscribers :(
So it's back to googling around again .....
Thanks for your help
Di
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I have just heard (rumour at this stage) that George Pike was "Horse Master" for King George 1. That's probably one of those things that one can't even check so it will probably stay as a rumour for now. ::)
there should be somewhere that you can check this out.
maybe records of staff for the royal family
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Hi Toni,
Thanks for that idea. I have just noticed that I wrote King George when it should have been Charles 1st :-[ - anyway, I don't think it matters much as I'm sure it was just one of "those" stories ::)
I have actually just found a list of Masters of the Horse back to the 1500's and although it is incomplete, George Pike's name is NOT on there.
So as a finale, I know he was in Parliment, most of his in-laws were peerage or VIP's and that's probably the best I can imagine I will ever know.
Thanks everyone for your help and time
It is very much appreciated
Di
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Hi Di,
i don't know if this helps you (from Berks FHS) :~
The Royal Archives, held at Windsor Castle, comprise personal and official papers of the Sovereign and some other members of the Royal Family from 1760 to 1952 - from the reign of George III to that of George VI. Papers of earlier monarchs are, for the most part, held at the Public Record Office at Kew. Papers of the present reign are transferred gradually to the Royal Archives when no longer required at Buckingham Palace.
The Royal Archives holds an index of Household employees from 1660 to 1901, known as the Household Index. This index is mainly compiled from the records of the Lord Chamberlain's and the Lord Steward's Departments from 1660 to 1837 in the PRO and from various printed sources such as The Court & City Register and The Royal Kalendar. Information from Household records in the Royal Archives is gradually being added. The information in the index is generally limited to the name, post held, the dates of employment (in some cases with details of salaries and pensions) and the relevant PRO, printed or Royal Archives references.
For employees before Queen Victoria's reign, the Archives hold a limited number of establishment books and other records of service, although these tend to give little detail other than name and post held. References may occasionally be found in the correspondence of George Ill and George IV. Unfortunately the papers of King William IV do not survive.
Enquiries about records in the Archives should be addressed to the Registrar of the Royal Archives, Windsor Castle, Berkshire SL4 1NJ, and enquiries about photographs to the Curator of the Royal Photograph Collection at the same address. There is a basic research fee of £10 plus VAT (as at Dec 2000). Charges for photocopies and photographs can be supplied on request.
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Thanks Toni,
That sounds like it may be worth writing to them to see if they have anything in the early/mid 1600's. Although I understand information for that time is rather limited.
Isn't that typical, just as you've found a really interesting branch, the information dries up ::)
Thanks for your help
Di
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Ah, so its Charles 1st!!! Sorry I should have noticed, George died a couple of years before the restoration!! I must be slipping!! A very interesting time to be in parliament as long as you were on the winning side of course!! ;) I am sure we can manage to dig up a bit more than that on him Di. I will have a think. :-\
Linda.
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I don't know how to interpret the coat of arms other than to say that the first and nineth quarters would seem to contain the arms of the senior (paternal) line. Unfortunately the division into nine quarters(?), which is most unusual, has destroyed any clear idea of relationships. I would expect that reading the other quarters from left to right and top to bottom would give some indication of seniority
There is probably a shield that belonged to an earlier generation which would be "properly" divided into quarters and sub-quarters.
I can't work out what the crest on top of the helmet is supposed to represent.
David
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"armigeri" on the second slab normally means that the person is entitled to bear heraldic arms. Alternately it can mean 'a shield bearer of a knight' which by the 17th century was archaic and probably meant an attendant on a great personage. I'd tend to go for the first definition.
Robert
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Thanks for your comments and help David,
My lack of knowledge about heraldry is only surpassed by my lack of knowledge concerning the ancestors of George Pike. So unfortunately I can't help with any ideas on who the extra quarters refer to except I did find the following comment in a booklet concerning this coat of arms
"His monumental inscription contains much genealogical detail, and the coat of arms has nine quarterings, including such early coats as Argentine, Delapole and Mortimer. Although he has left the lions of England alone, it is a heraldric curiosity"
Re the Crest: As far as I can see (on a larger copy of the coat of arms), the crest appears to be a horse with a saddle except I think his head has been broken off at some time.
Thanks also Robert for the Latin translation. I also think that the "armigeri" relates to the bearer of heraldic arms as the other two options don't seem to apply in the case of George Pike.
Thanks a lot for your help
Di
Edit: added a larger copy of the crest (brightened for easier viewing)
I think it looks like a headless horse - any other ideas?
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Interestingly the half a dozen Pike crests which I have found are all either pikes or figures holding pikestaffs.
David
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Thanks for looking David. I also haven't found arms that have anything that looks like this although I have yet to see the Visitations for Cambs or Essex where George lived.
Di
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Hello - I'm a first time poster :-\ I think I might be able to help with more info - I have had some success with interpreting coats of arms - so would like to look a bit more closely at the shields at the top - can you tell me where this is or provide a better resolution pic? Take a look here: http://www.layston-church.org.uk/memorial8.html - if you link off from the home page you will see a family history section - it might help! :)
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Hi Honey Bee - welcome to Rootschat
You've joined a great site where everyone is very kind, helpful and generous with their time.
I have a better copy of the shield/coat of arms that may be easier to "read" but you may find the original even easier as they are in a church close to you - Holy Trinity in Meldreth ;D
Good luck with your church.
Di
;)
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Hi Di,
I think this might be what your after .....
In memoriam Georgii Pike Armig / cuius exuviae non procul abhinc iacent reconditae/ cuiusq coniugis fuit Margareta filia Edwardii/ Woodcott de Ipswich Gen ex qua/ tres habuisset filias, Annam (Gulielmi/ Violet de Norfolk Generosi uxorem) Ceciliam (Tho James de Hartford Gen uxorem) et Mariam (primo Tho/ Pritchard com. Cantab Armig dein/ Jacobi Whitlock de Buckingham Armig/ uxorem) mortua Margareta duxit Eliz/ Iohan Gore, Lond mil filiam qua/ habuit Paulum Georgium et Elizabeth (primo Gregor Baker Stafford/ gen mox Iohan Crowch Com Hertford/ gen uxorem) Obijt Sept 11 / Anno 1658 Aetais Suae Sexagesimo Septimo.
In memory of George Pike Esq whose remains lie buried not far from here and whose wife was Margaret daughter of Edward Woodcott of Ipswich, Gent., by whom he had had three daughters, Anne ( wife of William Violet of Norfolk, Gent) Cecily (wife of Thomas James of Hartford, Gent.,) and Mary (first wife of Thomas Pritchard of the county of Cambridgeshire Esq, then of James Whitlock of Buckingham Esq.,) On the death of Margaret, he (George) married Elizabeth daughter of John Gore of London kt by whom he had Paul, George and Elizabeth (first wife of Gregory Baker of Stafford Gent and soon after of John Crowch of the county of Hertford Gent.) He died Sept 11 in the year 1658 aged 67
I'd love to take all the credit for the translation and I did start most of it off but a good friend of mine, who knows more about Latin than I ever will, finished the difficult bit's off for me. (Thanks Anne & Joyce)
Regards