RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: downside on Thursday 06 September 07 16:26 BST (UK)
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I guess I should start a new topic as there are likely to be some comments following the program tonight at 9pm.
http://www.myparkmag.co.uk/articles/entertainment/television/Who-Do-You-Think-You-Are-New-series.jsp
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cheers Downside...i'd forgetten about that :) ...
Debz
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Don't know if I will watch as she was on the radio today talking about the programme and gave most of it away!!
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Well, I cried :'(
Anna
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me too
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Anna
So did I :'( Wise words from the lady from the museum in Belarus about personalising history though!
I thought at the beginning though that never mind collecting generations of names, far more exciting actually finding out about the lives of your ancestors even fathers. How many of us know what our parents got up to when they were younger, really??
Kerry
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Don't know if I will watch as she was on the radio today talking about the programme and gave most of it away!!
I hope you did watch as it was very moving.
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I did watch, but thought it was a bit of a strange programme...
Whereas previous peeps have been completely amazed by what was uncovered, I didn't think that she was completely surprised...my guess is that she already knew about a lot of the WW2 attrocities involving her family etc...
The Apothecary part of her Mother's side sounded interesting, - perhaps that could have been investigated further?
Romilly.
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I agree Natasha was not completely surprised - she must have known that the story would involve Nazi horrors. Several of my Jewish friends know that much about their families but (perhaps mercifully) not the detail. Still, I think she was genuinely moved by what she learned - who wouldn't be?
What really finished me off was the haunting singing of Benny Kaplinsky in the ruined synagogue - breathing life and prayer and music back into those 15th century walls after decades of silence. Amazing.
Anna
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....What really finished me off was the haunting singing of Benny Kaplinsky in the ruined synagogue - breathing life and prayer and music back into those 15th century walls after decades of silence. Amazing....Anna
:'( :'(
Me too !
I was crying for all those poor souls who had to go through such horrors !! You just can't get your head round it can you ??
:'( :'(
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The leech bit made me close my eyes ... ugh !
But as you say, the singing in the ruined synagogue did for me ... its so good to know that old, ruined places of worship still have the power to move people like that; to allow then to feel free enough to express their faith.
I agree that I think Natasha knew quite a lot about the holocaust ... but her tears were genuine enough.
(As an aside, Tintern Abbey in the Wye Valley this coming Sunday at 3 will be having their annual service of vespers ... again, such a moving experience to be there seeing the ruins used for what they were used for so long ago ...)
John Hurt next week ...
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I cried too. This is one of those programmes that will stay with me. Funny how some of them never go away and others are totally forgettable.
Still trying to decide which was my all-time favourite from the previous series. What do other people think?
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Oh that singing in the ruined synagogue.............can anyone tell me what it was? Was it a prayer for the dead? So moving.
Nanny Jan
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Tonights was very interesting, very sad had me in tears but gave a true insight into the Jewish families.
Hope they carry on being as good.
Christine
Moderator comment: topics merged
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I too enjoyed the programme
I think like most of you Natasha would know quite a lot about her family background
It was sad when her cousin sang so beautifully
in the old church
Elizabeth
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Very moving. And it was excellent involving her cousin - it moved the story away from the glitzy TV personality bit.
Wise words from the lady from the museum in Belarus about personalising history though!
Absolutely.
JULIAN
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The prayer in the ruined synagogue.......beautiful.
Very moving.
Betty
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Was it, perhaps, the Kadesh?
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Darn i forgot about that :(
Celia
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It was quite sad to see what happened to her family, who must have gone through horrors most people nowadays cannot comprehend. The story about her father and the sit-in was good - obviously the guy had a strong sense of equality and justice.
Looking up Slonim on Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slonim_%28Hasidic_dynasty%29 shows something about a Jewish dynasty that originated there, and the article has a picture of what appears to be the synagogue Natasha and her cousin visited.
- Stephen :)
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To be honest, I found the parts about her Jewish ancestry to be, frankly, repetitive. Don't get me wrong, it was very moving and as a historian I know the history of it all...but we've already had the definitive episode dealing with the Nazi atrocities with the episode about Stephen Fry's ancestry. It just seemed like retreading old ground.
Her mother's ancestry, on the other hand, for me was far more interesting and they should really have made more out of researching the royal connections. Honestly, most of us watching will have our ancestry grounded solely here in the UK. It's such a pitty that in this fourth series they're once again abandoning the possibilities to research in this country, instead going abroad to research that which few of us will ever be able to apply to ourselves. As a nation, we have an ancient and varied history...it's such a pitty that the program makers seem to abhor researching it. My only consolation is that maybe John Hurt's episode next week will be grounded in the UK.
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I enjoyed the episode and especially her long lost cousin's singing, that made me cry as did the story of his father, walking up the street with so many other poor souls. I tell you we don't know how lucky we are.
Looking forward to all of them especially Griff Rhys-Jones
Jane
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I think I would have liked them to shorten the part about her father in South Africa and use that to explore the Apothecary's history a little more. I don't think you can criticize looking at her Jewish history. It is after all part of her. Stephen Fry and Natasha are not related nor did their relatives live in the same country so it isn't going over old ground. It said to me what a remarkable man her father is and Benny's father too. You have to admire their bravery.
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Honestly, most of us watching will have our ancestry grounded solely here in the UK. It's such a pitty that in this fourth series they're once again abandoning the possibilities to research in this country, instead going abroad to research that which few of us will ever be able to apply to ourselves.
Simon G is falling into the trap that someone does every time this series comes on air. Much as it may disappoint some Rootschatters, the programme is not made for would-be genealogists (though it was the spur that got me started, like many others), it is made for a general audience. And I'm sure the general public finds trips to exotic locations overseas a lot more interesting than the minutiae of searching parish registers, etc.
In this specific case, I also wish there had been more time to follow Natasha's mother's family history, but it's only an hour - and, if you were the producer, would you have foregone the account of the doctor's lucky escape and later life as a partisan - let alone Benny's beautiful voice?
Gareth
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Simon G - I think you might be suprised just how many people have foriegn ancestors somewhere - I thought I was English through and through, but discovered that I have both Prussian and Indian connections and my husband has French ancestors.
Travelling around the globe isn't just a 20th century thing.....
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as a historian I know the history of it all
I suppose this is one of the aims of the programme - we may know the theory of of the Holocaust etc, but seeing how it affected someone's family made it all seem very much more real.
The same thing happens with workhouses, settlement orders and lunatic asylums - we know they existed, but it's only when we see them in relation to real people (like our own families) that they mean anything. I've learnt much more about history since I started my family tree than I ever did at school.
I'm happy to see a variety of celebrity backgrounds on the programme - but am looking forward to a working-class UK family being shown again.
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I enjoyed the programme, apart from the beginning regarding Natasha's father.
No matter how many times I hear about what the Nazi's did, it still moves me.
Benny's singing at the end was very moving...
My fav WDYTYA was Jeremy Paxman.
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I'm really shocked by Simon G's comments. Firstly the 'little England' assumption that that virtually everyone watching the BBC must be unalloyed 'English' is clearly way off the mark. And in any case the myth of the pure bred is clearly just that: the English have always been a "mongrel race" - celts, Romans, Picts, Saxons Vikings etc, as well as the much more traceable waves of imigraion and integration in recent centuries. And secondly his view that any story that is not in some way relevant to him and his researchis not worth screening. Agreed there's plenty of rich British heritage to explore, but wouldn't that, over five series be in greater danger of becoming repetitive?
I guess Simon thinks that one bunch of suffering Jews is much the same as another, despite coming from different countries, fleeing to different countries with distinct research issues raised, not to mention the poignancy of the individual stories. So having done Steven Fry there no need to do any others, especially as Simon knows how it all ends... Bit like complaining that having covered the life of one person with an ag lab ancestor there's no need to do any other English stories, as 90% of us descended from ag labs and so our personal circumstances will have been documented on screen.
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I found it a very interesting program, but there was nothing what so ever to help with research. I don't think we were even told how they contacted the people abroad to find the information.
I suppose it might be considered boring to keep going over the same things, but there is always someone new, who will need help.
That I did find disappointing.
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Interesting range of comments!
I find these programmes to be good at putting "world history" into personal stories, which I think can make the past seem more relevant to individuals - it can be easy to dismiss things as "politics" or "wars" and assume they are uninteresting and irrelevant - this programme in particular showed how they affected one family over more than one generation.
I found the whole programme interesting & absorbing - like many others I thought the singing in the derelict synagogue was a magnificent & powerful image - I did wonder too whether it was the Kaddish (prayers for the dead) - I hope someone can tell us. Whatever it was it was a wonderful tribute by the singer to his parents who survived and to those of the family & beyond who did not.
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Yes I do agree that they should explain their research. After all they did have extra programmes to do so in previous series. There must be many in this country with Polish roots who would like to know how to go about it. Or are they saving such info for their new magazine?
On the point about ethnic purity. Even with my family who seem to have stayed put for nearly 500 years they still seemed to have picked up the odd german and irish relative. The programme they had on how english people thought they were showed when their dna was tested many so called pure english were in fact quite a mixture. Isn't that why we study geneology in the first place? To find what our particular mix is?
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And I'm sure the general public finds trips to exotic locations overseas a lot more interesting than the minutiae of searching parish registers, etc.
The problem is researching in the UK need not be all about searching through parish registers. There are interesting stories to be told, as the fact that there was a section regarding how one of Natasha's ancestors was apothecary of George III showed us. The point is there are countless stories about people's ancestor in this country that aren't being told in this series. No, the vast majority of episodes seem to go out of their way to ignore this country's history in favour of sending these celebrities often thousands of miles away.
It's frustrating that British history is always less important than that of other nations. The same is true if you do a course of study in history at any level...our own history is ignored in favour of other world events. No other country in the world keeps their history at arms length, but we do it all the time. Granted it could risk becoming repetitive if they just did British history, but the point is they rarely ever do look at it. Where are the stories of ancestor involved in Swing or Tolpuddle? Where are the ancestors who died trying to secure the right to vote? Where are the people who fought to give everyone in Britain everything we take for granted today?
Further, I do not appreciate the insinuation in this thread that I neither care about the horrors that went on or feel that it's not worth screening because it somehow does not apply to me. There is a major difference between criticism and outright dismissal. I just happen to feel that if history is to be told that it needs to do the issues justice, and I don't feel this episode did that in the way Stephen Fry's did. It felt like they were going over things everyone already knew...the celebrity included. It needed more time to focus on the issues properly, especially given the length of time they spent talking about South Africa in comparison to everything else. For it to work better, the episode needed to be at least half-hour longer. As it was, the episode seemed like "history lite", only telling us as little as necessary about the historical context.
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So why is my daughter going to Dachau next month? We have no Jewish roots or any connection with the faith. She says it's something she has to do, a mark of respect, a way of saying sorry, a "I can't really believe this happened"? I don't know how to explain it, she's only 27 so would have no real idea of what happened, yet she says she feels a real compunction to go there. How many 'Rootschatters' have been to one of the extermination camps? How did you feel there?
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I found this to be the best episode so far and by quite a long way. The actions of Natasha's father in Cape town were courageous in a time of totalitarian rule. On the other hand I do not blame the South African Jews for not applauding opposition to the Nationalist Government. Many of them did like Helen Joseph who was kept under house arrest for years and years. On the other hand many of them were first generation refugees from Europe and were treated incredibly well. There were no bars for Jews in South Africa and they were predominant in medicine and law, played in the South African cricket and rugby teams. I am pleased to say that I knew many of them and counted them as my friends - fine folk.
I am not disturbed by not seeing physical research on records being done. Most Rootschatters would find it superfluous and the public at large would find it boring - the story is what they want.
The prduction was superb and the finale with Benny singing Kaddish was really moving.
If time had permitted I would have appreciated a bit more about the apothecary Charlewood but it did add a glamorous and very English touch to the programme. 8)
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Thanks for confirming that Benny was singing Kaddish; I'd only heard it once before and it was many years ago.
Nanny Jan
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No one seems to have mentioned that there was a theme running through this program - attitudes to racism. Firstly there was the attitude of the Kaplinsky's that migrated to South Africa who were so grateful to be accepted into white society there, that they ignored the apartheid situation. Then there was the support of Natasha's father towards a black lecturer being appointed to Cape Town university. Just when everyone thought that this was all behind them, Natasha and Benny stood outside the derelict synagogue on which someone daubed the graffiti WHITE POWER.
There have been other people with Jewish roots in previous series of WDYTYA like Nigella Lawson and David Baddiel, but I don't see why they should be ignored just because 'Jewish roots' have already been covered. The majority of the subjects of these programs are 'home grown'. I think it does make the series more interesting to see where others have come from and why they ended up in Britain.
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I'm with Simon. He makes many valid points. Come on, Rootschatter - let's allow freedom of opinion and a bit of healthy debate.
I think the people who are getting on their soapboxes about the Holocaust are in danger of belonging to the same group who think that merely raising the problems caused by mass immigration automatically makes you a racist.
Just because he wanted to express his view that perhaps another WDYTYA programme concerning the Holocaust was excessive, given that there are many other ( even multicultural) aspects of our ancestry which haven't yet been touched on by the programme, does not make him unaware of the horrors perpetrated by the Nazis.
For the record, I enjoyed the programme and - yes - I had a tear in my eye when Natasha was overcome by it all. Personally, I could probably have done without the bit about her father and sit ins in South Africa. I felt that this was stuff only one generation back and easily accessible for her. I know she said her father didn't talk about it much, but I too had the impression that she already knew most of it anyway (by the way, that doesn't mean I'm in favour of apartheid!).
I also wanted to know more about the Charlewood apothocary side of her family.
As for including research details - I think too much of it would be out of place in the actual programme. As the BBC have raised so many people's interest in their family history through this programme, wouldn't it be a good idea to either repeat the programmes they ran on digital after each programme in the first series, or even produce another set of 'how to' programmes?
Jill
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Like ozlady, I have no Jewish connections, only having known someone whose entire family was wiped out in the Holocaust.
I first visited Bergen-Belsen in the fifties, this was when it was still a taboo subject amongst the Germans and they were still in denial about such places. It was very hard to find because there was no roadway or signposts, it was hidden away in the middle of a forest
The only other people there were the couple I went with, and the memory of that visit will remain with me forever. Standing amongst those mass graves with no sound of any bird or animal life, the atmosphere and feeling of the horrors that had taken place was quite tangible.
When I found myself living in Germany some years later, it was one place we took our family to visit, in the hope that they would get an understanding of the enormity of the terrible events that had taken place there. By that time things had changed, it was very much open to the public and there was a visitor centre and coach loads of tourists. Although still a very moving place to visit, nothing can compare with the the feelings experienced on my first visit
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I'm with Simon. He makes many valid points. Come on, Rootschatter - let's allow freedom of opinion and a bit of healthy debate.
Thank you. :) I don't pretend to be right 'cause I know anyones opinion is as valid as the next. I do, however, feel it's important than people's opinions be treated with a certain level of respect and I think it's a sad day when healthy debate is put to one side.
I'd like to make it abundantly clear, since people clearly have misinterpreted everything I've been saying. I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH AN EPISODE CONCERNING THE HOLOCAUST, I just feel that it wasn't done as well as it could have been in this episode and would rather they'd addressed issues well instead of, as it felt to me, giving us half a story on so many issues. I would like to see more of British history (and that doesn't mean I'm a racist, just someone who feels British history is not something to be brushed aside), but before anything else I'd like to see any history shown to be more in-depth and for episodes to have more of a feel of "discovery". To me this episode felt like they were reviewing what they already knew.
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I'm sure we all have topics we'd really love the programme to cover in future episodes, and some programmes will interest us more than others. I want to know about lunatic asylums (and why my g-g-grandmother died in one), but realise not everyone will share my interest.
As for the Holocaust - even if we have no Jewish ancestors, many (most?) of us can identify quite close relatives killed in WW2. Programmes like this one remind us why - I thought this episode dealt with the subject from a very different angle from the Stephen Fry one, so I didn't feel it was repeating itself. I hope they repeat it soon, so I can record that song in the synagogue.
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My g-grandmother also died in an asylum, & , like you lesleyhannah, would like to know more about them
I thought this program might be covering the same ground as Stephen Fry, but I found it quite different.
I thought the partisans & their underground 'towns' particularly interesting.
I would love to hear Benny's beautiful voice again.
Betty
I'm sure we all have topics we'd really love the programme to cover in future episodes, and some programmes will interest us more than others. I want to know about lunatic asylums (and why my g-g-grandmother died in one), but realise not everyone will share my interest.
As for the Holocaust - even if we have no Jewish ancestors, many (most?) of us can identify quite close relatives killed in WW2. Programmes like this one remind us why - I thought this episode dealt with the subject from a very different angle from the Stephen Fry one, so I didn't feel it was repeating itself. I hope they repeat it soon, so I can record that song in the synagogue.
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Hi
If anyone missed the episode I have it on dvd drive thingy :) ( I am not a technical but OH is, he will make you a copy) if you send me a pm with your addy I am happy to post you a copy.
Somethings are repeated on the digital channels BBC4 I think it may be called, but it is usually the day after it is shown for the first time.
I have nearly all of them on disc and watch whenever there is nothing to watch, which is often 8)
Jane
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My own fascination with family history is unearthing individual stories that bring our ancestors from the past vividly to life again - however horrific or upsetting these accounts might sometimes be. The fact that someone was able to discover an eyewitness account or what exactly happened to members of Natasha Kaplinsky's family during something already so well documented does not detract in any way from the programme. Each one of those inhuman tales from the Holocaust should be discovered and repeated and never forgotten as a living memorial to what happened then...
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Let's not forget that for many people, searching for their forbears is too dry and boring to contemplate. How many of us have bemoaned the fact that no one else in their family is interested, and wonder what will happen to their painstaking research when they are gone?
Ignoring (for now) the question of how much of the actual research should be shown, think of it this way: if the 'human interest' stories inspire more folk to see Family History in a different light, then they are well worth it. After all, history is not just big events and famous people. All of our ancestors were part of history with stories of their own that are worth telling.
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great programme and very moving, my grandfather was also displaced in WW2 luckily he came to the UK or i wouldn't be here!
its a shame the programme makers don't make these programmes about non-celebrity folk, i would love it if someone paid for me to go to Kiev to find my grandfathers records.
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What is good is to see that the episode did affect people differently and also that we are able to discuss this freely.
If the Nazis had won that would not be possible. We are today suffering from a steady but unceasing removal of our rights of free speech and rights to asemble freely. We must be careful that the past does not become our own future. Programmes which discuss the holocaust and apartheid play a vital part in reminding people of what might come. Whilst the teaching of history in schools has become so perfunctory we have millions of people to whom any part of our history is opaque.
As I have said here before - If we don't know who we were how can we understand who we are and what we are?
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Totally agree with you Hack. So much is missed out within the bounds of the teaching of history within the classroom and more importantly (in my view) by parents theirselves. I do not mean just the "stuff" that one finds in books that sit on the shelf but from family members. I know little of what my own grandparents lives were like and how both sets lived and survived in their early years. But through my self and my sister my children and hers both have an understanding of just what our father had to go through during the 2nd ww so that we now have a better understanding, not only of him but of others that have played a part in forming our being of what we are today.
old rowley
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I'd love another programme, focussing on the researchers, telling us HOW they found out the information. Some celebrities are totally surprised by what's found, so they can't have given much guidance at the beginning.
I mean, on the programme we always seem to see the celebrity walking into archives or records offices to be met immediately by a helpful member of staff with the precise book open at exactly the right page! Now WE all know it doesn't work like that. So how do you go about finding ancestors who come from overseas - for example loads of us must have Irish ancestors, (but will never be able to get to Ireland) or German or French or whatever? Or what about pre 1830s ancestors who don't appear on the IGI? Maybe such a programme would have limited interest, but I'd be willing to sit up late to see it.
I'd even like to see what defeated the researchers - were there celebrities they 'rejected' because their trees were too difficult to trace?
But the Natasha Kaplinsky programme must be counted as a success, judging by the debate it's generated here. So well done the research team!
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I'd never heard the Kaddish sung before ... I had thought it was recited regularly for 12 (?) months after a death ... but live and learn, live and learn !
It was the most haunting singing ... reminded me a little of the Orthodox Kontakion for the Dead ... also a very haunting piece of music/singing ...
(Pity one can't add a piece of music where it says ATTACH A PHOTO OR IMAGE
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I'd even like to see what defeated the researchers - were there celebrities they 'rejected' because their trees were too difficult to trace?
I always wonder that too!
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Or a really juicy scandal, & the celebrity wouldn't allow it to be shown ;D
Betty
I'd even like to see what defeated the researchers - were there celebrities they 'rejected' because their trees were too difficult to trace?
I always wonder that too!
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I can think of a few politicians they would like to do ... but who might be too 'hot' for TV !!
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its a shame the programme makers don't make these programmes about non-celebrity folk
Toni - a couple of years ago, they did start to do some non-celebrity folk on BBC4, I think it was the evening following WDYTYA. They were very interesting, but what amazes me is that they only ever go back as far as grandparents, or g.grandparents. I'm sure I'm not unique, but I know all about my g.parents and g.grandparents (well apart from the one g.grandfather who appeared from nowhere aged about 27!) and I'm not even young.
Liz
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I'm always surprised by the number of people I meet or read about on here who never knew their own grand-parents ... maybe I was just lucky, in that mine lived next door ! And the generation before them were often subjects of family conversations ...
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I'm always surprised by the number of people I meet or read about on here who never knew their own grand-parents ... maybe I was just lucky, in that mine lived next door ! And the generation before them were often subjects of family conversations ...
Blimey That's sad :'(
I was lucky I knew both my lovely grandparents, and even my g grandmother, but she did die when I was very young.
I still have photo's of us together.
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Me too, Lydart.
I knew both of my grandmothers, my grandfathers having died one shortly one many years, before I was born. But we did talk a lot about certain great grandparents, though since doing the bizz on Eliza Ann, I have found the only true thing I was told by my mother was '...that Eliza Ann, she was weird.' ...Don't I know it! ;D
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Both sets of my grandparents died between 1960 and 1963 and I can not really remember them (I was between five and eight at the time of their deaths). True, I can remember going to their homes, and visiting family members whilst there but not much of my grandparents come to mind, except of course the milky bar chocolate that one nan insisted that I liked and the fresh baked apple pie that the other nan would have on the table when we went to see her but of anything else zilch. Which is why I say that I know nothing about their early lives. My one aunt who would have been able to tell me about her family would always retort, when asked, "what do you want to know for, its no good digging up the past" and would change the subject, sadly died in 2000 (I think that she would be suprised at what I have since found out about her parents and other family members).
old rowley
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What really finished me off was the haunting singing of Benny Kaplinsky in the ruined synagogue - breathing life and prayer and music back into those 15th century walls after decades of silence. Amazing.
Anna
Yeah ... it was amazing to hear the Hebrew Prayer ... has anybody know what it was called?
Would love to watch the programmme again just to hear the end piece again.
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I'm always surprised by the number of people I meet or read about on here who never knew their own grand-parents ... maybe I was just lucky, in that mine lived next door ! And the generation before them were often subjects of family conversations ...
For what itt is worth, all four of mine died before I was born. Both Grandfathers committed suicide and both grandmothers succumbed to the big C . Don't fancy my chances!
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I was fortunate in many ways, since I knew three of my grandparents (only one I didn't know was my mother's father, who had a heart-attack many years before my parents met). Never really got along with my father's parents (very few people ever did...my grandfather tended to be a little confrontational), but that's a different story entirely.
What always surprised me though is that my mother's mother never spoke of her parents. She'd always talk about every other aspect of her past, and always tell us about her one sister (who none of the other sisters were talking too...never told me why though)...but her parents, and especially her father, were never a subject she seemed prepared to discuss. It's such a shame, 'cause of all the people in the family she would have been the one who could have told such wonderful stories that would have broken down so many brickwalls.
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I knew them all so well, but still wished I had asked more questions.
Like which part of Ireland did my grandad's granny's family come from?
Ask both grandad's about the war.
My mum's parents died when I was in my late teens, and dad's parents when I was 26, two months apart :'(
Mum's dad made the best chips, Spam and Chips, I remember it well.
I have my grandparents letter they send during WW2, the love and passion they had, it's beautiful.