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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: IanShalapata on Monday 03 September 07 23:51 BST (UK)
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I would appreciate all replies of those who can help to untangle the following mess.
My mother and her siblings have always sworn that their great grandmother's name was Sarah Murray. During her second "relationship" she was living with William McCallum as per the 1901 census for Caldewgate. There she was listed as Sarah McCallum and being born in Middlebie, Scotland, and as being 5 years older than William.
The two again appear on the 1891 census on the same street, and she is listed as Sarah McCallum, three years older than William, and both are from Scotland. Now, on the 1881 census, still on the same street, Sarah is listed as Sarah Morrison, from Scotland, and four years older than William.
I can find a Sarah Morrison on the 1851 census for Middlebie, Scotland, but no Sarah Murray, although there are Sarah Murray's in Dumfrieshire in 1851.
So, what are the odds that Sarah Morrison, unmarried on the 1881 census, is the same as the Sarah McCallum, on the 1901 census, from Middlebie? Even though everyone in the family is unrelenting in their stand that her maiden name was Murray.
Here's where it gets even more complicated. Her relationship with William McCallum was supposed to have been her second marriage. She first "married" Henry Clarke and produced at least three sons, one of whom was my great-grandfather. Would she have been married and then gone back to her maiden name and domiciled with William McCallum? There hasn't been any marriage registrations for a Henry Clark(e) and a Sarah (Murray or Morrison) nor for a Sarah and a William McCallum. On top of it all, the marriage certificate for my great grandfather's marriage lists his father (in 1892) as Henry Clarke, but it does not indicate that he is deceased. Remember that Sarah was living with William McCallum as early as 1881.
That is my brick wall. All those who wish to wade into this I thank you. Those who don't I understand.
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What are the names, birthdates and birthplaces of the three sons?
Do you have Sarah in the 1871 and 1861 censuses?
Do you have William in earlier censuses?
And do you have the sons in the 1881 census?
Do you have your Great Grandfather's birth certificate - it should state his mother's maiden name.
Regards,
JAP
PS: I note that William's surname is given as CALLUM in the 1881 census on Familysearch.
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A warm Rootschat welcome to you :)
I think you'll find plenty of people here who enjoy chipping away at your brickwalls! But, as JAP says, we need to know first exactly what you've got in terms of hard facts.
Just a small point but it makes it easier for looker-uppers if you give the references for the censuses you've got. The (Mc)Callums weren't easy to find.
Just out of interest - was the youngster with Sarah and William in 1901 their son? I'm thinking in terms of Sarah's age, though it's not impossible. He looks like a Cornelius and FreeBMD only has two transcribed for Carlisle between 1891 and 1893 ...
Cornelius Clarke Carlisle Sep 1892 10b 528
Cornelius Clark Jun 1893 Carlisle 10b 543
I do see the birth of a Mary McCallum in 1883 and I think you may have to buy a few certificates if you haven't already done so.
I can also see a Henry and Sarah Clark in Caldewgate 1871 but I guess that's coincidence as they have a son and two daughters?
As I say, just curious and looking forward to any further clues you can give.
Regards, Heather
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Welcome
Just a word of warning on family 'hearsay'! Often their is an element of truth in it, but often it is not quite on the mark, and should always be treated with caution until proved!!
My dad's family always insisted that his gran was Susan nee Archer. When we looked, all evidence was that she was Susan Kemp before her marriage. But further hunting revealed her mum, also a Susan, was Archer before marrying Mr Kemp. So maybe there is something similar with your 'Murray' - perhaps it is the surname of a previous generation.
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Thanks to everyone who's replied thus far and thank you for the warm welcome. I was trying to write from brevity and to avoid un-necessary confusion. I'll try and provide as much information as possible.
As far as the three sons...Thomas Clarke born abt 1865 in Carlisle (the year is from his marriage certificate in 1892), William, and Henry. No confirmed birth dates or locations, although it is supposed to be Carlisle. I cannot find any family unit containing the three with their father, Henry, on any census from 1841 to 1901, or any of them with Henry as head of household. No census with Henry and Sarah either.
Although Thomas's marriage certificate indicates he was born about 1865, I haven't been able to confirm an entry in the birth indicies for a number of years either side of 1865.
No Sarah in the 1871 or 1861 censuses. Nor is William present in Carlisle prior to 1881.
The McCallums were not easy to find. On the each census they're listed as Callum, however William and Sarah's daughter, Mary, was recorded as McCallum on her marriage certificate, and on the immigration register when my grandfather came to Canada, he listed his next of kin as William McCallum. I'll provide references in the future for as much as I can. Sorry.
Heather, the Henry and Sarah you found in 1871, was Sarah born in Scotland and was the son's name any of the above listed? I think I found this entry before and put it aside as unlikely.
The "son" on the 1901 census is actually Cornelius Clarke, my grandfather, and Sarah's grand son. He was born 16 June 1892 in Carlisle. His mother was Margaret Curran and father was Thomas Clarke.
I'm keeping an open mind in regards to surnames and dates. I know how easy it is for enumerators and others to "mishear" or to misinterpret information. However it's not always easy when the rest of the family is content to believe what's been passed down over the years even in the face of "proof".
Let me know if there is any more information I can provide you with. And thank you again.
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I would agree with the family myth syndrome. My paternal grandmothers family were reputed to come from wales but when you put the family name, greenop, and wales together there is zero return. In fact they came from 10 miles away and probably originated around Lancaster.
I'm suprised that you can't get good info from the scotlandspeople.gov site as scottish certificates give much more info than english ones. True the site isn't free but when you need a certificate they are much cheaper than english ones.
Eg they tell you parents marriage date and how many older siblings - now isn't that nice.
bob
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Hi again, thanks for the extra info and clearing up the Cornelius question!
This is what I found in 1871
1871 RG10 5222 21 36
Caldewgate
Henry Clark head 30 Cumberland Westward
Sarah wife 29 Scotland
Thomas son 7 Westward
Jane dau 4 Carlisle
Mary dau 7 months Carlisle
It fits ... apart from the missing William and Henry ???
There is a Jane in 1881 in service of the right age and birthplace. I can't see this Henry or a similar family in later censuses.
This is most likely the birth of that Thomas and the certificate may be worth a gamble, if only to rule them out?
Thomas Clark Jun 1864 Wigton 10b 488
Can I ask what evidence you have about the brothers William and Henry?
Heather
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Hi Heather,
The birth years do match up nicely for both Sarah and Thomas, but no mention of the two boys, Henry and William, who are, again, passed down by word of mouth and not by any hard evidence. By the same token, there has never been any mention whatsoever of sisters of Thomas.
I think I must purchase the birth certificate of William and Sarah's daughter, Mary, to see if that will provide a maiden name for Sarah.
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Yes I think you're right. Buying Mary's cert. is a good start as you're pretty certain it's the right one. Personally I'd also buy that of the 1864 Thomas to compare mother's maiden names. At the very least it would rule out that 1871 Caldewgate family.....at best it would disprove the family tales.
I had a few family tales of my own to start with and I'm not sure even now my parents believe what I've found, but I have the hard evidence in front of me :)
One enduring myth was there was Russian blood in my grandmother's family. Not true - but one of her aunt did give birth to a son (British subject) in Russia 1899!
Others ..
paternal grandma was born Bishop Stortford - it was Bermondsey
great grandma's family came from Sheffield - nope, they were Lincolnshire through and through but one brother moved there
g grandad died of heatstroke while farming - no, he died of heart problems after a 2 1/2 year illness
See what I'm getting at? ;D You need to go your own way and collect the evidence to get at the truth.
Good luck! Heather
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I came upon this thread today; although it's old, I hope I can tap into what ipshalapata has found. Perhaps answer some of my own questions about the Henry Clark of Carlisle and his family.
First, I'm not positive my Henry and yours are the same, but he's the only one I could find at the appropriate time and place. My connection to Henry Clark is through his parents, Patrick and Jane Clark, both born c. 1811 in Ireland, immigrated to Wigton area about 1840. 1841 census shows Patrick and Jane Clark with children Anne and Eleanor (both born Ireland), Henry, born 1841. 1851 shows the addition of Elizabeth and Margaret, born 1846 and 1848. My ancestor is Elizabeth Clark, who went into service and came to Blackburn, Lancashire before 1871. It looks like several of her sisters also went into service here and there, as did Henry for a time. I found that same 1871 census in Carlisle showing Henry and Sarah and their three children, and then there was nothing (as you have found).
I'd be very interested to learn whether your Henry seems to spring from the same parents as my Elizabeth (I know her parents' names from her death certificate in New York City).
If I'm completely off base with this Henry (YOUR Henry), and you can tell me why, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise . . ..
Many Thanks.
Sally
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Hi Sally,
I'm very glad you replied to the thread. Heather and the others have all been quite helpful with a lot of good tips and research.
I've taken a lot of the advice and started with the purchase of Mary McCallum's birth certificate. I found that her mother's maiden name was, in fact, Morrison; and not Murray. Selling that to the family is the hard part.
I believe that Heather was on the right track with the Clark(e)'s of Wigton and later Caldewgate. When I purchase Thomas's b/c it should confirm the family unit. I think, then, that it will also confirm that your Elizabeth and my Henry were siblings.
From Patrick to Henry to Thomas and then to my Grandfather, it is the slightest of threads to follow the male line as each was the sole son born into the family. But to be able to trace another line through your Elizabeth is a rare opportunity.
What's the protocol for going to email?
It's a pleasure to "meet" you and enough can't be siad for all the helpful people here at Rootschat.
Ian
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What's the protocol for going to email?
If Sally makes two more replies either here or anywhere, then you will be able to send her a PM (private message) with your email address - even just a HI on this thread will get you up - you need three posts - see the number just under your name Sally? Don't put email addresses out on the boards though.
It is great to 'meet' with rellies via the boards - I've just done so - great excitement!
Wiggy :)
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Hi Ian,
Following the "reply" instructions above, here I am. I tried your e-mail address, and am not sure it went through. Just in case, I'll repeat what I said here. If you feel fairly certain that your Henry's parents were Patrick and Jane Clark, then I think we have a nice family connection here. I'm 99 percent sure they are Elizabeth's parents, based on her death certificate information.
I'd like to share her line with you, if you agree we have a connection, and would be pleased to know what you have on Henry's descendants. Elizabeth Clark is an interesting story, as they all are, right? Seems she never married the rather upper class father of her two (three?) children, and in 1898 she came to New York City with two of them. Her oldest daughter, Lilly, married a Carlisle man (Allan Cassidy) and that couple came to New York in 1891. They are the grandparents of my husband, whom he never knew.
Looking forward to hearing your confirmation, and will be sad if you feel we're not on the same line (but I'll get over it).
Thanks!
Sally
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My second reply: a happy hello to you.
Sally