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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cumberland => Topic started by: Gigi on Wednesday 29 August 07 20:11 BST (UK)
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Hello All,
My Robinson ascendents apparently owned a tailor's/outfitter's shop and also a cabinet maker's/undertaker's business in Cockermouth. This would be probably been around the 1860s. Has anyone heard of either of these two businesses or knows anything about them?
Thanks in advance,
Gillian
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It's late and I'm old so you'll have to excuse the rambling but if you try www.historicaldirectories.org or something very similar I think it is Leicester University has digitised all the Kelly's and similar for the whole country.
The site is not easy to navigate but take your time and you will find every business in Cockermouth around the time your looking at.
I have found that one gets too much information on surnames but you should get lucky with the businesses
bob
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Hi Bob,
Thanks for your reply. I did try historical directories and did find Palmer Robinson Cabinet maker/undertaker, however, no tailor's shop. I have a picture. I'll try and post it tomorrow.
When I ask the family one or two have vaguely heard of the two businesses. I would like to try and find out more about them.
Gillian
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Here is a photo of Robinson's shop Cockermouth. Does anyone know anything about it?
Can anyone give the photo an approx date?
Thanks,
Gillian
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Hi again,
it's even later and I'm even older but that photo looks to be 30's and the directories site seems to stop in 1910. I've checked the cumberland news site (cumberland-news.com) as they claim to have an old photo archive. It seems to go back to the 2005 floods or I'm doing something wrong.
Being old and decrepit I had missed your reference to 1860's so i looked back myself - I did say it wasn't an easy site.
1858 Kelly's Robinson, Tailor, Main St
1858 Kelly's Robinson, Draper, 11 Market place
1873 Kelly's Robinson, Linen and woolen draper, 11 market place (gone up in the world)
Can't help with first names but a search of the 1861 and 1871 census by address might pull you something up
bob
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Hi Bob,
Thanks for looking in the directories. Not an easy job! Yes I could lookup addresses on the census. I reckon the shop was in Main Street. I'll see what I can find.
Gillian
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In case we are both wrong, I am contacting an 80 year old relative life long relative to see if it is a 1930 photo.
Unlike us 60 year olds the 80's aren't wired up so it may take a day or two.
Any longer than that and we are into a seance as i haven't spoken to him in a while.
:>}
bob
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Thanks Bob
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A few other clues in picture that may help:
They sold Cumberland Tweeds and had a sign ourtside which seems to read as 'Castlebank Dyeworks' (mind you, these dyeworks seem to have been in Scotland, so probably just highlighting fact that they sold their products).
Interestingly, in a far earlier timescale of 1811, there was a Robinson who was a grocer & woollen-manufacturer. Maybe this shop was a development of that down the generations.
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I think we must be on for that seance. Nothing from elderly relative. Sorry
bob
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Hello All,
Thanks for your replies.
I know that my Robinsons were also undertakers and cabinet makers in Cockermouth. Don't know about woollen manufacturers and grocers.
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
I hope I get this right. It's my first post.
I've been in the Local Studies Library in Carlisle this morning and I looked in a couple of old Trade Directories. I didn't have long, so there may be others and I will look again either there or in the Archives.
It looks as if the Robinsons were busy people!
I found:
Robinson P & Co,
builders, contractors, cabinet makers, house furnishers, painters & decorators & undertakers,
The Mayo Furnishing Warehouse, 64 Main Street, Cockermouth.
Also
Robinson, Rt & Thos Tanners (sheepskin), St Helens tannery
Eobinson, Ada Jane (Mrs), game dealer, Market Place.
Robinson Isaac , grazier, Croft Terrace
Robinson, William, agriculturaal implement manufacturer, South Street.
Then in Kelly's Cumberland and Westmorland 1925 I found:
Robinson P & Co,
Joiners, funeral furnishers, cabinet makers, house furnishers, painters, decorators
and undertakers,
The Mayo Warehouse, 64 Main Street, Cockermouth.
T N 32.
Also
Robinson, Isaac, grazier, 5 Croft Terrace.
Robinson, John, Horse slaughterer, St Helen's Street
Robinson Wm, Agrictl impl mfr South St T N 79.
I think that means he had a telephone by 1925, too.
I don't know if the others are yours, but no doubt you will.
Position:
I looked at the number for a shop I know and it is odd. Yours is even, so it is on the same side of the street as the river part way down.
Also, if you let your eyes focusm the right way, on your photograoh, you can see the reflection in the window, which shows trees and country and also, a substantial looking building, so it's a position where you could see beyond the street.
Between the locals and my next visit, I will work it out and try and get a modern photo.
I hope this is useful. I love looking at local old buisinesses anyway.
Best wishes.
Emms.
Sorry it's quite long with no formatting, but I haven't sorted that out yet!
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Hi Emms,
Thanks very much for having a look in the directory. Palmer Robinson the joiner/undertaker is definately mine. I'm not too sure about the others. Robinson is a common name so the others may be no connection.
I have looked at the directories that are online at historicaldirectories but could never sees any Robinson tailors later than 1873.
Thanks again,
Gillian
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I have looked at the directories that are online at historicaldirectories but could never sees any Robinson tailors later than 1873.
Looking at the 1881 census, there is a John ROBINSON (17) Apprentice Tailor - his father was John (42) Millwright.
Also Richard (56) Draper, Lorton in Market Place
and Robert William (31) Mercer and Draper, Cockermouth, husband of Amelia at Cocker Bridge
and Thomas C (30, unm) Draper, nephew of Frances, retired milliner, St Helens St
Approx 125 ROBINSONs in Cockermouth.
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Hi Geoff,
I have found my Robinsons in the 1881 census:
Mary ROBINSON Head W Female 42 Cockermouth Domestic Servt
William John ROBINSON Son U Male 18 Cockermouth Tailor
Thomas ROBINSON Son U Male 16 Cockermouth Tailor
Hannah ROBINSON Daur U Female 14 Cockermouth Domestic Servt
Frederic ROBINSON Son U Male 3 Cockermouth
Ada ROBINSON Daur U Female 1 Cockermouth
They were living Cocker Landing, Cockermouth. John Robinson the father was also a tailor before he died. I don't why they weren't living in Main Street/Market Place above the shop. Also there is a bit of a mystery about the mother Mary Robinson as she was also a widow in 1871 but two children were born 1878 and 1880!! She is still listed as a widow in 1881 so I don't supposed she remarried another Robinson!!!
In 1871, 1891 and 1901 the family were living Main Street Cockermouth.
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
I'm glad you're getting somewhere.
If you haven't sorted the mystery out before I go to the record office in Carlisle, I will have a look at the Baptism and Marriage registers for you. I'm aiming to go in the next couple of days!!
Good luck!
Emms
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Hi Emms,
Thanks for the offer. I couldn't find a baptism for either Ada or Frederick in the IGI.
Gillian
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Igi tends to peter out after 1837. You would do better looking for birth registrations on freebmd using cockermouth as the registration district.
There is 1 ada for Q1 1880 and 1 frederick (notice the K) for Q1 1878 which would correspond to your family. If you decide to request a certificate, you can specify mother and fathers name (or either) and if certificate doesn't correspond, you only pay for the search not the certificate. (nearly forgot - freebmd is an org.uk not the usual co.uk
bob
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Hi Bobgraham,
Yes, the birth cert of Ada or Fred might shed some light on the mystery. Maybe the enumerator in 1871 made a mistake and entered Mary as a widow. I'll have to see if I can find an entry for John in 1871.
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
There are definitely some mysteries there!
I was in the archives at Carlisle Castle and I did find one baptism, for Ada:
All Saints Parish Church, Cockermouth
1880
[In margin: "Born Feb-y 21st 1880*] April 4th / Ada daur of / Mary / Robinson / Cocker Bridge Cockermouth / Widow/ Eldred Green/
Not really very useful!
I didn't just see Frederic(k) where I expected to see him, but I didn't have long and the image kept going out of focus, so I will look again, if you haven't got to the bottom of it.
By the way, do you have a death for John, or just the fact that Mary is listed as a widow? Do you know her maiden name?
They seem to be a fascinating family!!
Good night Emms
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Hi Emms,
Thank you very much for the lookup!!! So it looks like Mary Robinson (also maiden name Robinson!) was a widow!! I did a google search on Eldred Green and he was the vicar! Not the father then I suppose!!!!!
The 1871 census must have been correct then! Mary must have found another man (men!) and had two more children after her husband's death, fascinating!
I have looked for John's death but as John Robinson is a common name in Cockermouth, I am not sure which one it could be. If I had to choose, the one that fits the best on freebmd is Dec 1870 age 37 (he was born 1833). That would also explain the longish gap between the births of children Hannah in 1866 and Frederic in 1878.
Thanks again,
Gillian
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Emms,
where are you parking when you go to the castle?
I've practically stopped going since they stopped us parking inside. And I wouldn't mind but it's my friend that owns the security firm that won't let me in. Maybe I should have a word to see if he'll give me a special pass!
;>}
I never seem to have the right money to park on devonshire or the park carpark or enough time if I park on Abbey st outside the sally bash.
bob
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Hi Bob
It's definitely a problem parking now. Here's no easy answer that I've found. I've not been as much either. At least from the car park immediately before you turn to the castle you don't have to climb quite as far.
For a lot of people even without a blue badge, going under the underpass and climbing, or going down to the bridge or crossing and climbing up is prohibitive physically.
, and you can't by any means guarantee that the lift is working.
I don't know how far you come, or how far you can walk.
Just have to be very organised with your time, and your change I guess.I guess!!
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Gillian
Just a couple of little gems, but I'm sure we'll get to the bottom of these!!
When I go up again I'll look at the records again, but in the mean time, I had a look at some old photo's today, and the shop has a different photo in - double fronted , and a list of services on the bottom. I'm between two buildings now, but on the widest part of the street.
I'd wondered why the Mayo, and about connections with Mayo Ireland, but apparently only indirectly, as it was after Lord Mayo, whose statue stood outside!! He was knocked down a few times, and one time smashed, but they stuck him together and put him up again.
It's late and I'll write a better description tomorrow, or it will be gobbledygook!!
Best wishes til then.
Emms
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Hi Emms,
It's interesting to see how places change over the years.
I am now gripped by my merry widow discovery! I had always assumed that the 1871 census was incorrect! Shows that you should never assume anything!!
Gillian
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Emms,
you promised to gobbledegook but never got back!
I have passed the Mayo statue for years as well as the wordsworth house and wondered.
If you go to w3 historicaldirectories.org and press just about any of them, you will find that cockermouth was the principal town in west cumbria due to the textile industry? So that is why it was chosen as the registration town in1837.
It was the place. I find this suprising in the face of the coal and iron industries in the west but they must have known best.
bob
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Hi Bob & Gillian
I finally got back! Hopefully without the gobbledygook Bob!
What I've been looking at is one of the "Britain in Old Photographs series about Cockermouth. It's by Bradbury who I think I'm right in saying wrote a very thorough and quite well known book on Cockermouth.
I guess I daren't publish the actual photo, but I think it's a different shop and from t I can see, and what the book says, I reckon this one is in main street. I wonder if your photo is the one in the market place or if there was one one at the bottom of the street nearer to Cocker Landing?
This shop has tow full windows, almost like two shop fronts. One of them has a door in, at the opposite end to your photo.
There are heavy mouldings at either end of the windows which your shop doesn't have, and the upstairs windows are the long, narrow, one pain top and bottom variety, whereas on yours they look to be more square and are two pains wide.
I need a magnifying glass to see what is in the windows,
The caption says that this is Mayo Furnishing Warehouse of P Robinson & Co.
It says they deal in house furnishing, cabinet making, decorating, joinery and undertaking. There are pictures of the statue after demolition and after restoration. There is a tree in two pictures. This is evidently the area I thought, but maybe Bob can help me out.
I don't usually drive this way through Cockermouth - it's often more than slightly busy! I thought this was the area by what was the central cafe, and one of the statue has a cafe - I think central cafe in the background.. I don't know if it's still there under another name.
Am I imagining things, or was this once renamed as Mayo Cafe?
Could this be Central Cafe or the building next to it?
As for Earl Mayo, apparently he, (Richard Southwell Bourke, Earl Mayo, Lord Naas), represented Cockermouth in Parliament from 1857 to 1868, between serving for constituencies in Ireland and being Viceroy and Governor General of India, where he was assassinated while visitting a penal colony!
That is the potted version summarized by an amateur!
I dare say you can request the book at your library, or find it there if you are in Cumbria, and I have had a few of this series off ebay. I intend to buy this one. I can't tell exactly where the photo came from.
I daresay you can have odd copies for private study.
I will keep my eyes open for more info and have a look and take a photo myself!
More on family in a mo, Gillian!
All the best.
Emms.
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Hi Gillian I had a short look at All Saints Cockermouth and didn't see a second marriage for Mary Robinson, but how many times was John Robinson married? Was he a merry widower??!!
I gather this is your couple.
1859
All Saints Cockermouth
Dec24th, John Robinsin / Widower / 26/ Tailor/ Cockermouth/ Son of John Robinson, Joiner/
married
Mary Robinson/ 27/ Spinster/ --/ Cockermouth/ Dau of Thomas Robinson, Innkeeper/
Both signed.
By License, witnesses, Palmer Robinson, Nancy Cass.
Does this partly explain the combination of services.
I also saw:-
1858, Dec 25th
John Robinsin/ 22/ Bachelor/ Blacksmith of Crosby, Son of John Robinson Joiner
married
Margaret Elliott/ 24/ Spinster/ of Market Place, Cockermouth/ daughter of Henry Elliott, threadmaker/
Both signed.
by license
Witnesses Palmer Robinson and Martha Elliott.
and more likely, but there were evidently other John Robinson around, and related!
1856
Oct 19th
John Robinson/ 23/ Bachelor/ Tailor/ Cockermouth/ son of John Robinson, Joiner/
married
Jane Allison/ 23/ Spinster/ Dressmaker/ Cockermouth/ dau of John Allison weaver/
Both signed
Witnesses John Scott and Sarah Ann Armstrong.
I guess you will also have Palmer Robinson married Martha Elliott, June 22 1862.
There is also Christchurch, but I've been through that for something else since your first post went up and I think I would have notice.
That leaves the Register Office well used by this date in Cockermouth, but there should still be a GRO reference.
I'll let you know if I see anything else.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Emms,
Thanks very much for those marriages. Yes my John Robinson was a widow when he married Mary Robinson. Looks like the marriage in 1856 could be his first marriage. The one in 1858 must be one of mine as well as Palmer Robinson was a witness. Too many John Robinsons!!
I don't think that Mary Robinson married again. To find out more I will have to track down a direct descendent of either Ada or Fred.
Thanks again,
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
You're welcome!
One thing, these were a good chunk of the Robinson marriages I saw, so it looks as if the vast majority of the Robinsions in the area belong to you, and most of the feature a John Robinson - though there was one intriguing one featuring a lady from Valletta, Malta, Cockermouth! Cockermouth has travelled!!
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Hi Emms,
I think I have worked out the John Robinson/Margaret Elliott marriage. The witness Martha Elliot was Margaret's sister. Martha later married Palmer Robinson. Maybe the John Robinson is no connection but his father John was a joiner too!!! Maybe a connection further back in time!
I don't suppose you could look for a possible marriage of Ada Robinson and Fred Robinson both in 1904 All Saints?
Thanks,
Gillian
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I agree that the 56 marriage would be the first marriage of the John who married Mary but what is intriguing is that both parents are joiners.
An Ada married a Nelson or a Potts in 1904
and Frederick married either aMary Ellen Craig or an Isabella Ostle. Any of these ring bells?
bob
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And I forgot. There are 3 possible deaths for Jane (first wife) but I would bet on first 2 unless he was a real hard hearted b.
bob
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Hi Bob,
Yes it's strange that both the fathers, John Robinson, are joiners!
I saw the Ada and Fred marriages on freebmd. I don't know who they married and my mum and her cousins don't know either. I would be interested to see if any fathers are mentioned in the church registers.
I saw the Jane Robinson deaths too on freebmd. I agree that maybe the earliest Cockermouth one is the most likely. The later one seems a bit too soon before his second marriage!!!
Gillian
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Hi Gillian and Bob
This is getting exciting! Yes, certainly I'll have a look at All Saints again.
A marriage for Ada or |Fred would be intriguing wouldn't it, and especially both..I'll look at the burials too, but they're a bit of a pest, because many at this date, don't give any info.
I wonder if there's a newspaper obituary, as they evidently were well known in the town.
I'll keep you posted, and Thanks for the fascinating feedback.
Emms
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Mmm.
our local paper has an archive online section that seems to go back a fortnight! It also has an "important people" section from Melvin Bragg to Chris Bonnington but only 1 "Captain Robinson".
Having said that I got my GGF's obit at Workington by going in and searching but only cos I knew the rough date of his blowing himself up!! If you knew the death date, we could go check for you.
Mother permanently on phone so can't check Mayo/Central cafe for you. Will see her later in week, and if I remember cos the alzeimers/alKhol is getting worse, I'll ask her. She certainly remembers some damage to Mayo so she could remember the cafe.
You think that main street is busy now. Imagine when there was no bypass and every bus and wagon for the workington steelworks and whitehaven Marchon factory came through that narrows by the brewery and now Quince and Medlar. It was barely wide enough for a wagon and had no lights or priority system so it was everyman for himself! And on market days the whole of main st was filled with stalls and there was hardly room for old Mayo himself.
I'll have to go now as I'm getting maudlin for the past. ;>}
bob
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Hi Bob
Yes, I can remember that too.
We used to go to Cockermouth and to Central cafe quite regularly. That's why I was so surprised there was still as much chaos - ie vehicles/pedestrians/ bikes diving out in front of you/ double parling etc. I will try and get a photo though in the next few days, and make the effort to go through instead of round Cockermouth.
I'll also look up the burials and try the W Cumberland Pacquet on film in the library.
By the way, it was early one morning in 1964, when the statue met it's demise - a petrol tanker smashed into it. By some miracle;e the driver wasn't injured, but the statue was decapitated, and apparently his scar remains if you look closely!
Best wishes
Emms.
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Spoken to mother!
The girl that worked/owned the Central Cafe in the 50's was the daughter of the owners of the Scotch Bakery in Jane st, Workington. She was called Margaret and we are working on the husbands name. But this is how all our conversations go. "She married so and so and lived on the Brow Top and xxxxxx". But we get there in the end. She does very well for 85
bob
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Gillian, Bob & Others.
Just a little input to add for the moment. A quick visit to the library, after a couple of Jobs, today!
I asked for the first box of old telephone directories. I could have done with the second as well but ran out of time! There isn't one for every year, but a good spread of dates Frem 1967 back to 1938.
I worked backwards and each year, had P Robinson & Co Ltd Joiners & Undertakers, until 1938 when I got P Robinson Furnishers! Change of emphasis or change of business?
Also, they were still there in 1967! I thought the cafe was there by then, so maybe it isn't that building or my memory is going! Probably!
No number for Central Cafe but it could be under the proprietors' names. None for the other shop, but they might just have had one phone.
I will look up the marriages when I go. I'm itching to see them myself!
Best wishes
Emms
By the way Bob, thank you for the info on the old directories sight. My mate and I are making good use of it for other purposes!!
I worked backwards each year
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PS Sorry, I forgot to post the list! Here goes!
Old Cumberland Telephone Directories.
1938 Robinson P & Co Fnshts, 64 Main St, Cockermouth 32
1946 ,, P & Co Joiners& Undertkrs, 64 Main St, Cockermouth 32
1959 ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, 2232
1963 ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, ,,2232
1967 ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, ,, 2232.
Regards Emms.
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Hi Emms,
Thanks for the info. I didn't realise that the company was there as late as 1967! I think Palmer Robinson died in 1909 (freebmd) and I don't think he had any children. I wonder who carried on the business.
Thanks again.
Looking forward to seeing those marriages too!
Gillian
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From memory, in the directories site there are old telephone directories. You may be able to find when they were "posh" enough to invest in a phone!!
bob
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Hi
I wont forget about the marriages, but there may be a couple of other things depending what they left.
There may be sales particulars for the business if someone bought it, and kept the successful name. There may be a will, or we may just get to the bottom of any nephews or nieces through church recprd to see who carried it on. They should be in electoral registers too.
Frederick?
There's bound to be something! I'll keep you posted when I get up there.
Emms
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Hi Gillian
Were your family always so elusive?
Only kidding. I'm enjoying following their clues.
Yesterday, I went through Cockermouth Main Street for the first time in years. It was fascinating - thank you for the excuse! And also revealing!
I tried to drive round the short block I thought was there, to discover someone had put a one way section, and also traffic lights - the nice variety to test you, when it quietly jumps back to two way, and you have to quickly dodge lanes! I noticed in time, but was glad it was a quiet Sunday!
As for shops, well they've also kindly annihilated most of the numbers which were on them!
However, I think I got the right place. There was a number about a dozen shops away, and I think I counted correctly. Most of the fronts have been replaced, but looking at the upstairs windows, they seem to be the same buildings.
However where I remember a row with cake shops, cafe, book shop, gift shop etc, there seem to be only betting shops, computer/video shops and similar, and I THINK your Robinsons is a Drink Shop now! The front wasn't the same, more modern windows, but I think about the right size!
I did notice that buildings most including this one did have alleyways leading to more premises behind, which I think they'd need for their activities.
The only problem was - photographs! My camera was pinched in a bag which was stolen recently, and I'd been lent one. The sun was very bright for the display but I think I used it correctly.
I stood at Mayo's feet and got the shop from close up, and in situ, with Mayo and without him, and was quite pleased - but I kid you not, all the photo's I took at home came out, but the ones by Mayo did not!
Either it was me and the camera or Mayo is having his revenge and jinxing the camera!!
(By the way, be is absolutely level with this shop, back between two lanes of traffic, but protected by a foot or two or innocent looking flower beds which are actually hefty concrete which will repel any wandering vehicles before they get to Mayo!
Seriously though, I enjoyed my Little wander and will be definitely be back for more, and we will have a photo!!!
I'll get back about my last trip to the record office. Some interesting ommissions I'm afraid but all is not lost!
Best wishes.
Emms
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Hi Emms,
I'm pleased to give you an excuse to wander round Cockermouth! I have not been there since about 1995 when my auntie Florrie Ellwood died. I had a number of Ellwood relatives in Cockermouth and some of my mum's cousins still live there.
I have remembered that my parents have a book about Cockermouth. I'll have to have a look at it when I go and visit my parents at Christmas. There may be some pictures in it.
Don't worry if the photos don't come out! It was a nice thought!
Regards,
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
Thanks for the extra interest. I love the books of old photo's.
I didn't really tell you about the archives and marriages or lack of them. For such a large company, they were quite invisible!
I looked at marriages in All Saints and Christ Church., but they weren't there! I looked at Cockermouth Methodists, no joy. The others I was going to look at had gaps or we don't have the register. We don't have the RC ones for Cockermouth yet. I would love to see those.
I'll look at the paper in the next couple of days.
Enjoy your day!
Emms
Of course there's always the register office we can't see.
And of course, Cockermouth registration district is HUGE! It could be Dearham, Bridekirk, you name it!!
So I looked for a clue elsewhere. I'm hoping they will have reports in the paper in the library which I'll be in soon.
No burial either, but no Cockermouth cemetery or Christ Church burials available at these dates. Paper:
No will. I wonder if they did keep it all in the family.
Do you know Palmer Robinson the younger? Or Robinson Court?I did see while looking for a friend's family:
1909
8th August/ John Moffat/ (to)Palmer and Annie / Robinson/ Robinson Court/ Cabinet maker/
They both feature again! Did they get involved in building as well? Was this the yard behind the shop?
I looked at a couple of electoral registers.
Elec. Reg. had All Cockermouth.
1906-1910
Owner voter Robinson Joseph, (Abode) Robinson's Court, Main St, VCockermouth// (Owned) Leasehold dwelling house (Description) Dwelling house in occupation of Miss Harrison.
Robinson Mary , Cocker Bridge, Dwelling House at Cocker Bridge
,, Ada Mary, Old Hall Inn, owned jointly a dwelling house at Old Hall Inn.
Lodgers
Robinson, Palmer jnr, lodged in a Bed & sitting room unfurnished , at Robinson's Court Main Street, for 5s6d per week, from Joseph Robinson of Robinson's Court.
Robinson John, ,, ,,, a bedroom, on the first floor, furnished, at St Helen's Tannery 11s? 1s? p wk from Robert Robinson of St Helen's Tannery.
But also, in 1906/7 only, Robinson, Palmer dwelt in and owned a dwelling house at Fern Bank.
I wonder if Palmer jnr was an oldest son/ grandson who was named after the first one and took the business on? Fern Bank is out of the centre and off the main Road towards the Sheep and Wool Centre and Keswick. I wonder if he built a home up there in his retirement, or even if there were younger non voters over there too?
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Hi Emms,
Thanks for all your efforts yet again!! Strange there being no marriages at All Saints. I thought that was definately their church!
There are a few Palmer juniors. Palmer senior b1838 Papcastle and Martha had no children.
Palmer senior's brother Joseph b1836 Papcastle had a son Palmer b1872 Cockermouth who married Catherine Moffat in 1898 Lorton.
Palmer senior's brother John William b1863 married Catherine and had a son Palmer b1898 Cockermouth. This Palmer died in WW1 14/03/1918. His parents John William & Catherine Robinson were living at 1, Fern Bank, Cockermouth at the time.
The Mary Robinson at Cocker bridge is my gg granma (merry widow!).
The Joseph Robinson Main St 1906-10 could be Joseph b1836.
I don't know anything about Fern Bank.
Thanks again for all your help!
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
Thanks for the extra info. Only a few minutes in the library today, so I didn't come up with any marriages - but I may have another clue. I did look at Cockermouth Methodist Circuit register and I thought there should be more marriages.
I've just been playing - all of five minutes and you may know about this, I came up with the area Methodist site - link below if I can make it work - Early Cockermouth Chapel, provided by Cooper George Robinson, on Lorton Street, the direction Palmer moved to Fern Bank. Also other reference, at least one, to Robinsons.
Reading the blurb, I think I should look at Workington Circuit, and Cockermouth and Keswick circuit, too. I'll have a go!
If you follow the link it should be the home page - try the links to Cockermouth etc and then on to history - maybe you've seen it already!
One newspaper result,: Cumberland Pacquet, 3 January, 1909.
Robinson, Palmer, Death:
On the 1st inst. at 1, Fern Bank, Cockermouth, Palmer Robinson, aged 70 years.
If it was number one, I wonder if he built it!?!
I'll keep you posted.
http://www.kcmethodists.org.uk/index.htm
Best wishes.
Emms.
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Hi Emms,
Thanks for the death announcement and the web address. I hadn't seen that website, have added to my favs.
You must spend all your free time in the library!
Regards,
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
Remember those photo's that I thought hadn't come out, well next time I downloaded I found them! Goodness knows why, but they were there.
This is the building that I got to when I counted the right number along from the next door with a number. (The blue one with a double front.)
It's the right size and shape for the one in the book although the front has changed.
It may also not appear if I haven't mastered the software right!
We will see!
Emms.
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Whoops!
Slghitly too big!
I'm working on it!
Emms
PS Still a bit big, but I give up for tonight! At least you can see it! I'll work on this before I start on Mayo!!
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Hi Gillian and All
Hopefully below we will have Mayo in all his glory - you can see why he would have been vulnerable before therte were planters, and white lines to protect him - and also Mayo in front of the shop.
There's a bit of an optical illusion because he looks to be left of the blue shop. In fact it's because of where I was standing. He's right opposite.
By the way, this was a quiet Sunday morning since the bypass was builI hope it works and doesn't go pearshaped!!
Best wishes to all.
Emms.!
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Hi
Here's Mayo looking up the street!
I'll have the hang of this by the time I'm finished!!!
Emms
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Hi Emms,
Thanks for the photos. It's interesting to compare then and now.
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
You're welcome. I must go down and have a good look around some time soon.
I'll let you know when Ive been to the record office.
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Gillian
Emms again! It was gorgeous but cold here today, and I managed to get up to the archives.
I went to look for Methodist marriages, only to discover that there were none in our archives as early as you need.. We always seem to find your family by a roundabout way though! So I tried another tack.
I looked to see if Frederick or Ada had their children baptised there - and they didn't - not on the Wesleyan circuit anyway. However, glancing back it became clear that there definitely were links to this church in your family at an earlier date - There are:-
Children of John and Margaret Robinson of Cockermouth (1860's and 1870's)
Children of Joseph and Elizabeth Robinson of Cockermouth, (1860's - 70's including Palmer 1864)
Children of John William & Catherine Robinson (1880's - 1890's, including Palmer, 1898). and a few others.
Definite links to your family, but not the two we'd like.
As for the marriages, well, Cockermouth registration district if huge. They could have been in Keswick, Workington, or a myriad of tiny villages in between, C of E or Methodist, or the Register office!
I'll keep an eye out - they may be on an electoral register married and that may give a clue where they are, and I'll look at baptisms in the Primitive Methodists.
It may be worth sending for one of the certificates, but on the other hand therare still some problems with the post, and we'relead to believe a backlog after "Who do You Think You Are?".
I don't know which are the most important link s for you. It's up to you, Gillian. I'm happy to keep looking and I resent giving them £7 to sit and wait, but there's always the niggling feeling about the register office!
Over to you! I'm enjoying the hunt either way!
Seriously if I think of anything and I get chance I'll try it, and if you've any requests let me know!
Oh, I nearly forgot! The link! I couldn't find a will in our index, (on loose papers), but I looked in the national wills calender today, and Palmer Robinson who died 1909 did leave a will, proven in Carlisle,.
Palmer Robinson, died Fern Bank, Cockermouth,Cumberland, builder, Probate Carlisle, 17 September to John William Robinson builder and Ann Robinson spinster.
John William is father of the next Palmer Robinson in the Methodist Circuit register!
I will look right through the (quite large) section of Robinsons and find the film of the original. I'll let you know if there is much more information, Gillian. Not sure when. Transport's a problem, but I'll be back!!
Good luck with the search!
Emms.
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Hi Emms,
You're a star!! Thanks once again for searching the archives!
I did wonder why I could not find many Robinson baptisms. The IGI does not cover the later years for the methodist church.
The easiest route is probably to send for the birth/marr certs of Fred & Ada Robinson.
I suspected that Palmer would have a will as he owned a business and had no children. The business could have been passed on to John William and the name of the business remained the same. A cousin of my mum's reckons the business was still around in the 1990s!
Thanks again Emms,
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
Thank you for the kind comments, though I am enjoying it too! I did get a quick look in yesterday and saw the will. No huge surprises, but no major family list either! As you said John William one benefice and executor was his nephew.
The other, I thought might have been a misprint for Robinson, but in fact it was his housekeeper, Annie Robson.,,,,,, !in case she shall be living with me at my decease",----she was left all his household effects including furniture and prints, and also all hie jewelery and personal ornaments, and £200.
He left his niece Mary Ethel Robinson Fifty pounds and the rest after costs to the nephew, John William.
There is another will of another Palmer Robinson of Main Street in 1924. It was very short and just left everything to his wife Elizabeth.
Interestingly, after what you said about the nineties, an elderly person I saw yesterday used to live in Cockermouth, and she remembered them using Robinsons' decorators from the business in Main Street in the seventies and it was a couple of doors from the Central Cafe.
I'm glad the baptisms were of interest. I'll list them for you when I get time.
I can't wait to hear how you get on with the certificates!
Good Luck!
Emms!
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Hi Emms,
Thanks once again! Ineresting Palmer will. I think that Mary Ethel Robinson was a niece from his wife's family. Her sister confusingly married a Robinson! Seems like Martha his wife died before he did.
My in-laws are staying at the moment. I'll ordr some certs once I've got the house back to normal!
Best regards,
Gillian
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Hi Gillian.
I hope this finds you well.
These are the entries from the Cockermouth and Keswick Wesleyan Methodist circuit I promised you a few days ago.
They may not all be relevant but now I've started I may as well just put them all down.
1857
Dec 30 Jonathan Lawson/ William & Betty Elliott/ Cockermouth/ One month/ William Parker
1858
Feb 13/ Margaret Hannah daughter of/ John and Jane/ Robinson/ Cockermouth/ Born Nov 30th 1857
1861
April 7th/ John son of/ John & Sarah/ Robinson/ Keswick/ Born Dec 31st 1860/ Jabez Ingham
1863
August 23rd/ Frederick son of/ ,, ,, / ,, / ,, / ,, June 7th 1863
1864
Mch 31st/ Palmer/ Joseph & Elizabeth / Robinson/ Cockermouth/ Born March 10th 1864
1865
Feb-y 9th/ Martha Emma daughter of/ John & Margaret/ ,, / ,, / ,,Jany 18th 1865
1866
Aug 15/ Martha Hannah ,, ,,/ Joseph& Elizabeth/ ,, / ,,/ ,, August 11 1866
1867 (Becomes Cockermouth circuit here, noot Keswick as well).
Nov 3/ Martha Ann ,, ,,/ Joseph and Elizabeth/ ,, / ,, / ,,Sept 18 1867
1868
Dec 31/ Henry Elliott son of / John & Margaret/ ,, / ,, / Born Dec19 1868
1869
April 29/ __________________/__________/ Robinson/___-/____/_
1869
Aug 31/John James son of/ Joseph & Isabella/ Robinson/ Broughton/ Born Sep 11 1864
1869
Aug 31/ Joseph Henry/ as above /Born Aug 22 1826
1869
Aug 31/ William Ivison/ as above / born July 8 1869
1873
Feb2/ John Edward son of/ John & Margaret/ Robinson/ Cockermouth/ Born March 16 1872
1874
June 1st/ Joseph Henry ,, / Joseph & Elizabeth / ,, / ,, / ,, May 3rd 1874
1876
July 14th/ Mary Ethel/ John & Margaret/ ,, / ,, / ,, /,, Novr 26th 1876
1883
January 26/ William/ John & Mary SAnn/ ,, / Church St, Dearham/ ,, November 10th 1882
1886
August 3rd/ William Henry/ Hannah Mary / ,, / Overend, Grey southern/ ,, April 19 1886
[ Pronounced "Grey Soon" or similar]
1888
July thirtieth/ Joseph son of/ John William & Catherine / ,, / Cockermouth/ ,, July tenth 1888.
1889
November 27th/ Martha dau,, ,,/ John William & Catherine Robinson/ Born Oct ober twentyfirst1889
1892
February 18th/ Elizabeth ,, / ,, ,,/ ,,,/ ,, / Born Nov 22 1891
1892
March 8th/ Alice Cape? d,, ,,/ John & Ellen / ,,/ Grey southern/ Born Nov 7 1891
1898
July 4th/ Palmer son of/ John William & Catherine / Robinson/ Cockermouth/ Born Ap 21 1898.
Have fun
Margaret (Emms)
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Hi Emms,
Thank you very much for those methodist baptisms.
I will be ordering those certs very soon, in-laws leave in a couple of days. Untill then I'm not allowed to get my family history files out!!! Makes the house look untidy!!!
I'll let you know the results.
Thanks again,
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
You're welcome.
I've not forgotten the look ups at the record office. A few distractions but I should be going up early in the week. I'll let you know how I get on.
Good luck with the certificates.
Emms.
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Hi Emms,
Have just ordered the certs!!! :D
Went mad & ordered a few as I haven't ordered any for a while!!
Will keep you posted!
Gillian :D
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Hi Emms,
Have received the certs today but no father info I'm afraid worse luck!!
Fred's birth cert & marriage cert have no mention of a father. He married at the Primitive Methodist Chapel Cockermouth to Isabella Ostle 13/10/1904. Ada Robinson was a witness so she would have got married after Fred's marriage date. Fred was living at Court Buildings Cockermouth at the time of his marriage. Do you know where that is? His occupation is joiner journeyman.
A bit of a disapointment!!
Regards,
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
What a shame there was no more information! Even so, there are things we can look at.
I was going to look at the Primitive Methodists before, but there were no records earlier here. There may be some for this later family. I'll look at the Independent Chapel in Cockermouth too.
I haven't found Court Buildings yet, but I'm pretty sure they wsere mentioned when I was looking before. The chapel or the shop might have been in there. though I think I've mentioned everything about the shop. I'd forgotten though. It was a library book I was looking at, not my own, so I'll look again.
I'll see what else I find, and look in the will s again too.
I'm not sure when I'll be up again though.
Soon.
Best wishes
Emms.
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Hi Emms,
I received Ada's birth cert after the others & hers doesn't have a father on it either worse luck!!
If you do manage to see the methodist records, I would be interested if you could find Ada's marriage & any of Fred's or Ada's children.
Thanks once again in advance!! You have helped me a lot already!!
Regards,
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
The plot definitely thickens! I'll have a look and see how I get on!
Best wishes
Emms
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Hi Gillian
Limited success with the Primitive Methodists I'm afraid. I suspect there should be more than there is. Maybe some went to the PRO or has been lost. Even so, I think your Robinsons have moved araound.
I only got to look at baptisms, but I did find just one daughter for Frederick:
1913
June 22nd/ born May 8th/ Mary Annie/ (daughter of) Frederick & Isabella / Robinson / River View, Cockermouth/ Joiner/ Joseph Burton.
Quite late. I wonder if they'd lived elsewhere first. We know though that they're still using the Primitive Methodist Chapel. May be I should try and pin them down in trade directories and electoral registers. If we get some dates I can have a look at some local papers too.
Good hunting! I'll go back when there's a bit more time.
Best wishes
Emms.
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Hi Emms,
Thanks for the lookup. I have had a bit of trouble posting on Rootschat today so I hope this one works!!!
I'll mention this daughter to my mum to see if it jogs any memories. It would be interesting to find any living descendents of Fred to ask if they know who his father was!!
Yes if they married 1904 you would expect children before 1913!
Gillian
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Hi Emms,
Been talking to my mum and having a think. My mum definitely remembers a Gt Uncle Fred, younger than her Gran Elizabeth Robinson (b 1860 Cockermouth) and older than her Dad Fred Ellwood b1896 Cockermouth.
The strange thing is that this Uncle Fred worked for the post office in Cockermouth. My mum remembers him showing her round. She particularly remembers seeing the telephone exchange. The Fred Robinson half brother of Elizabeth Robinson is a joiner up until 1913 (baptism of daughter Mary Annie). It seems strange to change your profession from joiner to post office worker. Maybe there is another Uncle Fred. Perhaps Ada Robinson Fred's sister married a Fred?? I did see a possible marriage on freebmd in 1906, Cockermouth with Frederick McJannet as a possible husband. I had disregarded this one as Ada was Ada Elizabeth Robinson and I had never seen a middle name Elizabeth mentioned before.
What do you think?
I hope you can follow all that!!
Gillian
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Hi Gillian
Well now I am confused! I'm only just getting back to real searching, as opposed to what I can lay my hands on here, after Christmas.
I came back to Roootschat tonight, and yours came up as a post since my last visit!
I've never seen this before. Maybe I missed an email, but I've been on a good few times since November!
Anyway, thank you the good kind person who finds and posts these problem mails!
It looks like this has taken an extra interesting turn!
I will take it away and have a think!!
Happy New Year!
Emms.
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Hi Gillian
Just a quick glance with my supper! I'll have another look tomorrow at the old stuff.
Could he have been a joiner for the post office? The old shops have loads of wooden fittings. Joinery seemed to be on the Robinson co's list of services. Maybe he just wanted to spread his wings?
I'll see what I can find.
I think I looked at an odd electoral register, but it didn't seem too relevant then!
As far as the name goes, certainly, I've got some in my tree who swapped combinations and orders of Christian names probably as often as they changed their shoes! S9o I don't worry too much as long as one usual one is given and there are no more contenders!
I'll get back to you!
Emms
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Hi Emms,
Happy New Year!!
Yes sometimes strange things happen with the email alert messages. I sometimes get two emails for the same posting!
I spoke to my mum again over christmas about family history but I've nothing new to report on the Ellwoods/Robinsons of Cockermouth.
Best regards,
Gillian
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Hi all
I'm joining this thread quite late but think my family links in with the Cockermouth Robinsons.
I have 2 Maryport Palmer Robinsons - father and son. Father Palmer (who is my GGG Grandfather) was born in 1799 in Great Broughton, son of William Robinson and Ann Palmer. William and Ann had 6 sons and a daughter, one of the sons was a John who was born 1801.
This John Robinson is, I believe, the father of the Palmer Robinson who you have referred to on here as Palmer snr, and was born in about 1838 in Papcastle. Does this link sound plausible? I'm afraid that I have no proof of the link but the dates fit perfectly, John's place of birth is correctly listed as Gt Broughton in the 1851 census... and the name Palmer comes from John's mother's maiden name and also his brother.
Does anyone have any pictures of Palmer? I'd love to see them!
Best Wishes
John
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Hi John.
Welcome to Rootschat and Happy New Year! :)!
I got a surprise to see this old thread in my Inbox! It's one of the first I contributed to! We really need to wait until Gillian comes on and see what she has.
I just had a play with Gillian's research because I'm in the area. I've not had much chance to do any recently - sorry Gillian! I've not forgotten! I should have chance soon, though I'll have to start with things in the library until I can get to the record office.
I'll print off what you've written and see if I can think of anything local to help with proof. There may be more wills, but that would have to wait until I can visit the record office.
I'll keep my eye on the post.
Welcome again. I'm sure you'll get lots of help and enjoy it. I have!
Happy New Year, Gillian when you come online! :) :D ::) :)
Best wishes :) :) :)
Emms
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Hello John & Emms,
Welcome to Rootschat John & Happy New Year to you both.
Yes I think that we have a connection John!
I have William Palmer married Ann Palmer16/8/1798 Bridekirk. John B1801 Great Broughton is quite likely their son. He was a carpenter. I do not have a baptism for him linking him to his parents. I have 4 other siblings: Joseph b1802, Whittaker b1805, Jonah b1808, Dorothy b1811. This info came from another researcher.
John Robinson b1801 marr Mary Bell b1799 Whitehaven in 1825 Dissington. Their children were: Ann b1829, John b1833, Joseph b1836 & Palmer b1838. Palmer marr Martha Elliot 1861. They had no children. Palmer died 1909 Cockermouth.
John Robinson b1833 Papcastle marr Mary Robinson 24/12/1859 Cockermouth. He was a tailor. Their children were: Elizabeth b1860 (my g grandmother), Mary Jane b1861, William John b1863, Thomas b1864 & Hannah b1866 al Cockermouth. John died 1870 Cockermouth. His wife Mary had two children after her husband's death: Frederick b1878 & Ada b1880.
Emms, we were looking for the marriage of Ada Robinson. I had long discussions with family over Christmas and I now think she never married as it seems she was looking after her aged mother, Mary Robinson.
Does this all make sense to you John?
Best regards,
Gillian
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Hi Gillian and Emms
Thanks for your friendly replies. Gillian... we are fifth cousins.
Your research all stacks up perfectly. What I've found out is as follows:
William Robinson married Ann Palmer in Bridekirk in 1798. They had 7 children; the reason you cannot find the baptism of John Robinson in 1801 is because they registered the births of their children with the Quakers (though they were not members), and you may know that Quakers do not baptise.
William and Ann had the followng children, all born in Gt Broughton:
Palmer (my GGG Grandfather), born 7 Jul 1799,
John, born 18 Jan 1801
Joseph, born 9 Dec 1802
Whitaker, born 3 Mar 1805
William, born 16 Feb 1807 and who died 14 May 1807
Jonah, born 14 Sep 1808
Dorothy Ann, born 17 Mar 1811.
By the time Dorothy Ann was born, William was listed as a Yeoman.
I've traced Palmer's descendants since they are my own direct line, but know nothing about the others, with the exception of Dorothy Ann. She was mentioned in a letter which belongs to my mother's cousin, and from this I know she married a John Lacklinson. I ordered the certificate of her marriage of 26th June 1839, and it appears that her father, William Robinson who was listed as a weaver, was still alive at that time. Dorothy Ann and John married in the Registry Office at Cockermouth, as good Quakers did!
I've not been able to find William or Ann on the 1841 census.
My GGG Grandfather Palmer (born 1799) was baptised in 1821 at the Scotch Presbyterian Church in Maryport on the birth of his first son, Turner Shevils. He had married Sarah Shevils (or Shiffield or Sheffield) in 1821 and had two other children: Ann born 1823, and Mary (my GG Grandmother) born 1831. Palmer was a master mariner.
Thanks to your post Gillian I now know more about John's line!
Do you know what happened to any of the other siblings, and have you been able to trace what happened to William and Ann?
John
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Hi John,
Very interesting! Thanks for the extra information about the Quakers. I didn't know that the births were registered there. I had seen your Palmer Robinson, master mariner, in the census and wondered if he was connected.
If you send me your email address in a personal message, I can email you a genealogy report of my Robinsons.
Best regards,
Gillian
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Hello John, I read this post with interest because I am looking for a connection between the Palmer family and the Sharp family in and around Maryport. My GG grandfather John Sharp married Mary Russell and we suddenly started to see lots of people with first or middle names of Palmer in both the Sharps and the Russells but I have not yet been able to figure out why. Can you identify any connections from your research? Cheers in advance John sharp