RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Yorkshire (North Riding) => England => Yorkshire (North Riding) Lookup Requests => Topic started by: BassinghamTerrier on Wednesday 29 August 07 15:23 BST (UK)
-
Hi
Could someone please find this lady for me? She is proving rather elusive! :-\
1839 born Elizabeth Holgate (perhaps Holdgate as a mistranscription) Thornton Dale - parents unknown
1860 Nov 24th married Thomas Sedman in Scarborough (I have the certificate for this)
1861 census: ??
1871 census: living at 5 Fish Yard, St. Thomas Street, Scarborough (RG10/4816 Folio: 111 Page: 44) Mary Jane Holgate sister aged 23 unmarried, born Thornton, Yorkshire is staying with them.
1875 living at 6 Fish Yard, St. Thomas Street, Scarborough, North Yorks.
1881 census: living at 6 Fish Yard, St. Thomas Street, Scarborough, York. (RG11/4803 Folio: 104 Page: 26)
1891 census: living at 6 Fish Yard, St. Thomas Street, Scarborough, Yorks. (RG12/3965 Folio: 35, Page: 65) Robert Sedman (Thomas' brother) is staying with them too.
1901 census: living at 6 Fish Yard, St. Thomas Street, Scarborough, Yorks (RG13/4531 Folio: 54 Page: 46) Robert Sedman (brother-in-law) is staying with them.
1910 Dec 1/4 died in Scarborough aged 71
I have found her husband, Thomas, in 1861 living at the Talbot Hotel, Queen Street, Scarborough, Yorks. (RG9/3617 Folio: 81 Page: 27), so Elizabeth is going to be alone, or maybe with her parents and sister Mary Jane Holgate?
It would also be interesting to find her in 1851 and 1841 if at all possible!
Many thanks in advance.
MT ;)
-
The only Elizabeth I can see is this one, but the sister isn't in evidence. What is her father's name from the marriage certificate?
1851
Malton Gate, Farmanby, Yorkshire
George Holdgate Head M 39 Stone Mason Yorks Pickering
Marwin Wife M 37 Yorks Kirby Moorside
Elizabeth daur 11 Yorks Thornton
Margaret daur 7 Scholar " "
James son 9 " " "
George son 5 " " "
HO107; Piece: 2373; Folio: 314; Page: 16
-
Of course! Silly me! I had forgotten that the father's name is on the marriage certificate! ::)
Yes - that IS the family! Father is George, a stonemason. The witnesses are a William Pexton and Ann Holgate - must be another rellie!
Seems I was right on the 'Holdgate' theory too!
Any luck on the 1841 and 1861 now, please?
MT ;)
-
IGI marriages
1833, 20th July, Pickering, North Yorks.: George Holdgate and Marwin Dennis
Seems that only the wedding registrar got my Elizabeth wrong, putting her as HOLGATE when she married Thomas Sedman - the family name appears to be HOLDGATE!
MT ;)
-
Case closed, I believe - EXCEPT FOR THE ORIGINAL REQUEST of the 1861 census!
I have found the family myself in 1841, using my discs which employ the most dreadful images!
HO107/1260/09 folio 10 pages 13 and 14
Whitby gate, Farmanby, North Yorks.
George Holdgate, 30, Mason, Born in county
Marwin " , 25
John " , 5, born in county
Ann " , 3, "
Elizabeth " , 1, "
That answers the question of where the Ann Holgate (sic) came from on the marriage certificate! :)
MT ;)
-
Well the image may be slightly better but the handwriting isn't, transcribed as Haislgate! PM me your addy I have treats for you, not yet done anything about the 1861 one though.
-
I have Elizabeth's brother in Lilic Cottage, Yedingham, Yorkshire
Working for farmer William Green are a number of servants including
James Holdgate Servant Unm 17 Ploughboy Yorkshire Thornton
RG9; Piece: 3623; Folio: 63; Page: 2
-
I have not a clue whether this might be George - you decide
Forest Moor, Scriven with Tentergate, Yorkshire
Farmer Richard Swale with his wife Eliza and children have servants including
George Holdgate SErvant Unm 16 Carter Yorkshire Bilton
RG9; Piece: 3205; Folio: 46; Page: 2
-
I don't know where Ann is in 1851, a couple of possibles but no probable. By Elizabeth's marriage certificate it would seem that Ann may not have been married in 1861 so this could be her.
Otterington House, North Otterington, Yorkshire
Jesse Cumming Head of Household Unm 33 Housekeeper Scotland Greenlaw
Ann Holgate Housemaid Unm 22 Housemaid Yorkshire Thornton
and a couple of other servants.
Just found a death for Marwin Hollgate Q1 1874 Scarborough 9d 213 age 62
-
Well, that HAS to be George's wife; there ain't gonna be any other Marwins, I don't think! :D
Also ... neglected to tell you that I found a birth for Ann, although she is Anne Holdgate - registered 1838, March 1/4, Pickering, vol 24 page 355
MT ;)
-
Well have patience and I'll see what I can find.
I'm assuming, because of George Snr's birthplace that this might be son John, but see he has somebody with him!
1851
Hazel House, Ebberston, Yorkshire
Farmer William Pearson, wife Betsey, children and servants including
Edward Holgate Servant Unm 17 Ag Lab Yorkshire Kirby Moorside
John Holgate Servant Unm 15 AG Lab Yorkshire Pickering.
HO107; Piece: 2373; Folio: 357; Page: 9
-
I assume you have the marriage -
George Holdgate married Marwin Dennis 20 July 1833 Pickering
which does just about give time for a birth of Edward before John ......
Up to you to confirm all this, but assuming that he is another child, this is the 1861 census for him
Wretton, Yorkshire
Farmer John Atkinson and his wife Sarah, with children, including
Edward Holdgate Son in Law Mar 27 General Servant Yorkshire Kirbymoorside
Hannah Wife M 28 House keeper Yorkshire Rosedale
Betsy daur 5 Scholar Yorkshire Wretton
RG9; Piece: 3642; Folio: 134; Page: 5
-
1861 - don't know why I didn't just look for this in first place.
Malton Gate, Farmaby, Yorkshire
George Marwin Holgate Wife Mar 49 Stone Mason's Wife Yorkshire Kirbymoorside
Margaret daur S 17 Yorkshire Farmanby
Mary Jane daur 9 " "
RG9; Piece: 3644; Folio: 40; Page: 6
Well at least we know George should still be around
-
1861
2 Pultons Buildings, York St John Micklegate
Stonemason Robert Palliser and his Wife Hannah with a couple of visitors and lodgers including
George Holgate Lodger Mar 50 Stone Mason Pickering Yorkshire
RG9; Piece: 3547; Folio: 86; Page: 27
Now there's something to look into - was there something big that he was hired to help build?
-
Well all of this checking with her family was to see whether Elizabeth was with any of them, but none of this has found her.
-
No worries, Mary - you've done a STERLING job!
She'll be out there ... somewhere ... hiding ... >:(
Have a drink on me! ;D
MT ;)
-
I assume you have the marriage -
George Holdgate married Marwin Dennis 20 July 1833 Pickering
which does just about give time for a birth of Edward before John ......
Up to you to confirm all this, but assuming that he is another child, this is the 1861 census for him
Wretton, Yorkshire
Farmer John Atkinson and his wife Sarah, with children, including
Edward Holdgate Son in Law Mar 27 General Servant Yorkshire Kirbymoorside
Hannah Wife M 28 House keeper Yorkshire Rosedale
Betsy daur 5 Scholar Yorkshire Wretton
RG9; Piece: 3642; Folio: 134; Page: 5
I've also found an Edward Holdgate in 1881, born in Kirkbymoorside, 1834, but he has a wife called Elizabeth (nee Otterburn)
Can't find a birth for an Edward to George and Marwin though; it seems that they didn't make a habit of registering their children, as so far I've only found Ann in 1838. :(
MT ;)
-
I have Elizabeth's brother in Lilic Cottage, Yedingham, Yorkshire
Working for farmer William Green are a number of servants including
James Holdgate Servant Unm 17 Ploughboy Yorkshire Thornton
RG9; Piece: 3623; Folio: 63; Page: 2
I have also found him in 1881, where he is married, viz ...
North Farm, Broxa, North Yorks.
James HOLGATE Head M Male 37 Thornton, York, England Lab In Woods (Man)
Mary HOLGATE Wife M Female 36 Hackness, York, England
1881 RG11/4807 folio 10 page 12
Also found the christening, with the ubiquitous mis-spellings! ::)
IGI christening, Ellerburn, North Yorks., 15th June 1842 James Holgate (sic), son of George Holgate (sic) and Mawin (sic)
MT ;)
-
Can't find a birth for an Edward to George and Marwin though; it seems that they didn't make a habit of registering their children, as so far I've only found Ann in 1838. :(
MT ;)
Don't forget that civil registration only began in 1837 and Edward would have been born prior to then, also John, so it's baptisms that you need to find and I think it's Pickering you need to look for them.
Seems like you need the 1871 entries now to fill in the gaps.
-
1871
49 The Abbey, Rosedale East Side, Yorkshire
Blacksmith Joseph Page and his wife Mary, and son with a servant
Edward HOldgate Lodger Widr 38 Ag Lab Yorksh. Kirby Moorside
RG10; Piece: 4840; Folio: 57; Page: 45
This might be one you might want to think about .....
West Field Gate, Southowram, Yorkshire
Farmer and Butcher Abraham Greenwood, wife and family
John Holgate Boarder Unm 30 Free Church Minister Yorkshire Thornton
RG10; Piece: 4388; Folio: 17; Page: 27
Age is out so possibly not.
There is a possible George
District Canterbury Barracks, Northgate, Kent
George Holgate Unmarried 26 Soldiers 2/16 B?? born Yorkshire
RG10; Piece: 970; Folio: 39; Page: 6
-
Righto Mary - here's what I've discovered today.
IGI baptisms/christenings:
[li]Edward = nowhere to be seen![/li]
[li]John = 8th June 1836, Kirkbymoorside, North Yorks. and he's a Holdgate![/li]
[li]Ann = nowhere to be seen, BUT there is a birth registered in Pickering of an Anne Holdgate, March 1/4, 1838 Pickering, vol 24 page 355[/li]
[li]Elizabeth = 16th April 1840, Ellerburn, North Yorks., and she is a Holdgate too![/li]
[li]James = 5th June 1842, Ellerburn, North Yorks., although he and his parents are Holgate.[/li]
[li]Margaret = 15th September 1844, Ellerburn, North Yorks., another with parents as Holgate[/li]
[li]George Jnr. = 29th August 1847, Ellerburn, North Yorks., and more Holgates![/li]
[li]William = 27th November 1849 (he's a new one!) Ellerburn, North Yorks., and yet again, Holgate[/li]
[li]Mary Jane = 28th November 1852, Ellerburn, North Yorks., but at least she's a Holdgate![/li]
[/list]
From all this, I can concur the following ...
- I cannot link an Edward Holdgate to the parents, George and Marwin - all the others listed above DO have those parents;
- Mary Jane's age on the 1871 census - where she is staying with Elizabeth who is now married to Thomas Sedman - is FIVE years out! She is 23 there, but should be only 18! (and yes - it's DEFINITELY her.)
- William isn't on the 1851 census; where is he? Dead?
- With the exception of Ann, who conversely doesn't appear on the IGI, they don't seem to have registered ANY of their other children
- Where on earth is Elizabeth (by now a Sedman) on the 1861 census??
I also found the birth of George Senior (8th February 1811) and his christening (17th July 1811) both in Pickering - they certainly delayed the christenings didn't they? :-\
Also got HIS parents - George Holdgate married Charlotte Bell in Pickering, 26th July 1808.
So that's quite a lot, really! :D
MT ;)
-
Not that it will get you anywhere but this birth is probably Edward's daughter
Betsy Holdgate Q2 1856 Pickering 3[5]6 9?
Anne Holdgate Q1 1838 Pickering 24/355
George Holdgate Q3 1847 Pickering 24/473
William Holldgate (sic) Q4 1849 Pickering 24/486
Mary Jane Holdgate Q2 1851 Pickering 24/580
Death of William Holldgate (sic) Q4 1849 Pickering 24/343
Poor chap, the spelling of Holldgate in BOTH birth and death entries makes me think that they were both done at the same time, the death being in the same quarter would also point to that.
One or two points I think you have to remember - the IGI is not complete. When George and Marwin married they may have lived in a town whose church has not yet been transcribed by the LDS and then moved later. If you really wanted to know about Edward I would suggest that you check all churches in the area where they might possibly have lived. You will hopefully find this site useful for finding some of them, http://www.genuki.org.uk/ and either write/visit the local Record Office to ask if they have the baptisms or even ask the LDS if they have them on film, just not transcribed on the site - remember that some churches just gave father's names so Marwin may not be mentioned. I must admit I'd be curious enough about Edward to investigate this further if it were me.
We don't know who wrote the names down when the babies were baptised - the minister probably wrote what they thought was the correct spelling, the parents possibly may not have even been able to write so it went unchecked.
In the early years after civil registration began, even after it became compulsory children often went unregistered, mainly from lack of funds. You can imagine if there was a choice between feeding the children or registering one of them, what do you think won?
As for the 1861 census for Elizabeth, if you are sure it's her husband that you have alone, then the scenario could be that she was visiting somebody and unexpectedly stayed overnight. If that family had already completed their form she probably wouldn't have been bothered, maybe thinking that her husband would have noted her as being at home. The husband however, thinking she would be enumerated where she was visiting didn't bother writing her name on the form and so she might have been missed. It's like the reverse of often finding children listed with both grandparents and parents on the same night, difficult to prove that they are the same person but imagine little ones clamouring to stay with grandma rather than going home and I would imagine that's how mistakes are made.
When it's a whole family missing that's a different matter and I usually believe that they are there somewhere, just a case of finding them however badly they have been either enumerated or transcribed.
You are lucky to have a few more names in the family to help pin them down - my own great grandma went unregistered in 1845 and no matter where I look I can find no baptism, the only possible marriage for her father seems rather unlikely and is nowhere to be found in the 1851 census. Later on she is working in various houses as a servant, so I have nothing to connect her to anybody, poor little orphan :'(
-
George Holdgate Q3 1847 Pickering 24/473
William Holldgate (sic) Q4 1849 Pickering 24/486
Mary Jane Holdgate Q2 1851 Pickering 24/580
Death of William Holldgate (sic) Q4 1849 Pickering 24/343
Thanks for those, Mary; I really don't know how I managed to miss those registrations. Just careless, I suppose! ::)
I also take your point about reasons as to why Elizabeth isn't on the 1861 census - I have a whole family of Birds who are absent on the very same census.
MT ;)
-
I have a whole family of Birds who are absent on the very same census.
Perhaps they flew south for the winter ;D
-
I assume you have the marriage -
George Holdgate married Marwin Dennis 20 July 1833 Pickering
which does just about give time for a birth of Edward before John ......
Up to you to confirm all this, but assuming that he is another child, this is the 1861 census for him
Wretton, Yorkshire
Farmer John Atkinson and his wife Sarah, with children, including
Edward Holdgate Son in Law Mar 27 General Servant Yorkshire Kirbymoorside
Hannah Wife M 28 House keeper Yorkshire Rosedale
Betsy daur 5 Scholar Yorkshire Wretton
RG9; Piece: 3642; Folio: 134; Page: 5
I've also found an Edward Holdgate in 1881, born in Kirkbymoorside, 1834, but he has a wife called Elizabeth (nee Otterburn)
Now then ... this has really puzzled me, but I've done a little bit of spadework and come up with the following.
I still can't definitely link Edward to George and Marwin, but let's suppose that ...
- 1855 Edward Holgate (b.1834-ish) marries Hannah Atkinson in Middleton, North Yorks, Dec 1/4
- 1856 Betsy Holdgate is registered in Pickering, June 1/4, 9d page 356, and is christened 18th March 1856 at Middleton
- 1857 John Holdgate is born registered in Pickering, December 1/4, 9d page 354, and is christened 13th December 1857 at Middleton
- 1861 Edward Holdgate and Hannah appear on the census with daughter Betsy, as you have already posted.
- 1863 Hannah Holdgate dies, registered Pickering, June 1/4 , 9d 275
- 1875 Edward Holdgate marries Elizabeth Otterburn in Pickering, September 1/4, 9d 648, appearing as man and wife on the 1881 census
Oh, and by the way - the 1861 census for Edward would be Wrelton, not Wretton. ;)
And then there's always ...
- 1862 John Holdgate marries Christiana Harrison, registered in Pickering, March 1/4, 9d 542
- 1866 Margaret Holdgate, registered in Pickering, Dec 1/4, 9d 391
- 1869 George Holdgate, registered in Pickering, March 1/4, 9d 413
- 1871 Mary Ann Holdgate, registered Pickering, March 1/4, 9d 421
- 1874 Mary Holgate, christened in Ellerburn, 23rd May
- 1874 Christiana Hollgate dies, registered in Pickering, September 1/4, 9d 305, aged 39
- 1877 John Hollgate marries Jane Leafe in Pickering, December 1/4, 9d 917, and they appear on the 1881 census with all the children AND Jane's daughter, Jane Ann Scafe
I'm a little unsure of the surname of the step-daughter though; the marriage gives Jane's name as LEAFE, but on the 1881 census the step-daughter's name is SCAFE. However, there is a JANE ANN LEAF birth registered in Pickering in 1862, June 1/4, 9d 400, giving the correct age of 18 in 1881, so I guess that the Mormon 1881 transcription must be wrong.
You may also notice that John's children mirror those of his father - a Margaret, George, (Mary) Ann, and Mary.
PHEW!!! :o
MT ;)
-
I still can't definitely link Edward to George and Marwin
Are you going to get the marriage cert to see the father's name?
Wrelton, not Wretton
I have to rely on peoples local knowledge, I can only transcribe as I see it.
I'm a little unsure of the surname of the step-daughter though
You just wanted to see it for yourself didn't you? Well it's definitely Leafe!
-
I still can't definitely link Edward to George and Marwin
Are you going to get the marriage cert to see the father's name?
No - as I've said before, it's a bit of an extended twig on a branch of the tree; but I might just have another way around it ...
Wrelton, not Wretton
I have to rely on peoples local knowledge, I can only transcribe as I see it.
Not getting at you there - just pointing it out! :D
I'm a little unsure of the surname of the step-daughter though
You just wanted to see it for yourself didn't you? Well it's definitely Leafe!
No, but I'm grateful for the info!
By the way - don't you think that I did awfully well to find and put together all of that info? ;D
MT ;)
-
I think we both deserve that pat on the back :D :D
-
I still can't definitely link Edward to George and Marwin
Are you going to get the marriage cert to see the father's name?
No, but ... I did the next best thing!
I now have a 'mole' at the NY Records Office who looks things up for me, so that I know which are the correct certificates to order!
Took a LONG time (think my emails have been 'junk'ed by her PC) but ... by using the marriage certificate entry of Edward and Hannah Atkinson, I've been able to definitely make that link, as the father on the marriage certificate is George, a stone-mason.
Elementary my dear Mary ...
MT ;)
-
Well done! I'm glad you've had it all confirmed :) Now just let me think which certs I need in that area ;D ;D ;D
-
I have also found him in 1881, where he is married, viz ...
North Farm, Broxa, North Yorks.
James HOLGATE Head M Male 37 Thornton, York, England Lab In Woods (Man)
Mary HOLGATE Wife M Female 36 Hackness, York, England
1881 RG11/4807 folio 10 page 12
Can anyone help me with this couple in subsequent censuses, please?
I have a possible death for her in Pickering in Dec Q 1901, but would need to be a bit more certain about her age in other censuses.
Ta in advance,
MT ;)
-
1891 - Living in Hackness
James Holgate b 1843 Thornton Dale Occ Woodman
Mary Holgate b 1844 Newgate
Jessie Holgate b 1886 Hackness (grand daughter)
1901 Living Market Place,Pickering
James Holgate b 1845 Thornton Dale Occ General Labourer
Mary Holgate 1846 Hackness
Hope it helps
-
Yes, it does, Goughy - thanks.
Can I push you for AGES as well please? This might help me to nail the death dates and ages on these two.
Sorry to be a pest!
MT ;)
-
1891 James 48 Mary 47
1901 James 56 Mary 55
-
Cheers, Goughy.
Having thought again, I should have worked out the ages for my self from the dates of birth given in your first post! :)
Quite some variation there though; I suppose it has to be the same pair though, so happy with this.
Cheers again.
MT ;)
-
Still can't find Elizabeth Sedman in the 1861 census and I've tried everything that I can think of.
She and Thomas only married in November 1860 and I can't work out why they would be apart in the 1861 census; as stated earlier, he is alone at the Talbot Hotel, Queen Street, Scarborough, Yorks. (RG9/3617 Folio: 81 Page: 27) and that is definitely him.
UPDATE: Just looked at the original image of the above Thomas Sedman and it might not be him. The one on that census return is 34, a few years older than my Thomas Sedman should be.
This means that they are probably together somewhere ...
Thomas Sedman: born c1831-1835 at Hawsker, North Yorks.
Elizabeth Sedman (nee Holgate/Holdgate): born April 1840 at Thornton Dale
Anyone else feel like chipping in at all? ???
MT ;)
-
Have we an address from the marriage cert and any witnesses?
-
Marriage cert details as requested, MaryA. :)
24th Nov 1860
Thomas Sedman - aged 28 - widower - cab-driver - Scarborough -Father = Thomas Sedman, Farmer
Elizabeth Holgate - aged 21 - spinster - no profession - Scarborough - Father = George Holgate, stone-mason
Witnesses = William Pexton (don't know him at all) and Ann Holgate (more than likely her elder sister, b.1838, Scarborough)
There are no specific details as to addresses. :(
For further info in re: the Hol(d)gates, in 1861 ...
Ann is living at Otterington House, North Otterington, North Yorks. (RG9/3663 folio 24 page 1) She is in the house of Jesse Cumming;
Father George is lodging at 2 Pullon's Buildings, St. John Micklegate, York. (RG9/3547 folio 86 page 27) in the house of Robert Palliser, stonemason;
Mother Marwin is living at Maltongate, Farmanby, Thornton-le-Dale, North Yorks. (RG9/3644 folio 40 page 6)
MT ;)
-
There are no specific details as to addresses
That's a shame, was hoping to check the address. Had no luck so far sorry.
-
Yes, it's a toughie isn't it, MaryA?
:( :(
MT ;)