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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Australia Lookups completed => Topic started by: elsie ellen on Wednesday 29 August 07 00:27 BST (UK)
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Hello!
Hector BARTLETT and his wife Matilda, nee WILLIAMS were married in Fitzroy, Melbourne 13 Aug 1883. Hector was 25 and Matilda 21.
I would like to know their detah details if possiible please, and whether or not they had any children.
Cheers on this sunny morn
Elsie
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Marriage Index gives the marriage of Hector BARTLETT & Matilda WILLIAMS as 1885 Ref: 5238
Birthplace of both given as Collingwood.
.....dee
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Can't see any births in Victoria to this couple though.
......dee
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Hi ...dee!! :) :)
This is my couple. 1885 is correct. I have a copy of their marriage certificcate before me and in my haste transcribed 3 for 5. The Registrar's handwriting is not clear for this 5 and the marriage date in the following certificate. However 1885 is clear at the top of the schedule. Thank you for drawing my attention to that discrepancy.
No children..ok.
Their death dates then...any chance of finding them please?
Hoping you are feeling "bright and chirpy again" ...dee.
Cheers
Elsie
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There is the death of a Hector BARTLETT aged 81 in 1941 in the district of CMAINE; Ref: 21090
No parents listed.
......dee
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Seems a real possibility that it is one and the same person...ages fit.
Elsie
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Matilda WILLIAMS
born:1862/15886.
Place: Melb.
Father: Henry Williams.
Mother: Sarah Coltsfoot.
Hector Bartlett
Born: 1860/11537.
Place: Collingwood.
Father: Hector Bartlett.
Mother: Ann Golding.
other Children are;
Elizabeth born:1858/252
Louisa born:1863/1502
George born: 1868/8475.
All have the Father: Hector & mother: Ann Golding died:1887/1310 Collingwood. Father or informent is Peter Golding. she died age: 64. Hector Bartlett snr died:1885/4725 age 63 father: Unknown place: Unknown
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I cannot find the death of a Matilda Bartlett though......someone else may do so but she has beaten me this morning.....
Is it her birth that Ozybob has posted?
......dee
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..dee and Bob... :) :)
Thank you both very much for your help this morning.
Can I ask for a little more help please? The information I am seeking is the birth details for the children of Mary Ann YEO and James Alfred WILLIAMS (Victoria). The births would be in the mid 1800s.
To quote the Cheshire Cat "...curiouser and curiouser..." ::) ::)
I seem to be missing a child from this family and would like help in verifying my information.
Thanks
Elsie
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There are 7 children for this couple, Elsie, and a couple of deaths....they'll take a bit of typing, but they are on their way.
......dee
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Thanks ...dee. :)
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Elsie, I am sending you a PM.
......dee
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Well...dee.
Now I'm really confused!!!
I think I'll start another thread as it is a different surname and I'll explain my confusion.
Thanks for your help.
Elsie
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Elsie,
Just to tie up a loose end ...
Ozybob posted the following birth:
Matilda WILLIAMS
born:1862/15886.
Place: Melb.
Father: Henry Williams.
Mother: Sarah Coltsfoot.
deeiluka then asked whether that was the right birth (as you have the marriage cert of Hector & Matilda, presumably you have the names of Matilda's parents?).
You didn't answer that query but went on to ask about children of a James Alfred WILLIAMS & a Mary Ann YEO.
I'm a bit puzzled - are they (not the people posted by Ozybob) the parents of the Matilda who married Hector??
JAP
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Hi Jap!
That's right...they are not the names of the parents I was expecting. Mary Ann YEO and James Alfred WILLIAMS were the names of my Matilda's parents.
It is becoming complicated...well for me anyway. Basically, I seem to have lost my gr Gran.
Her maiden name was Annie WILLIAMS. On both her marriage and death certificates Mary Ann YEO and James Alfred WILLIAMS are given as her parent's names. (I have these certificates). Her married name was BURNS. They married in 1899 when Annie was 34 years of age. On both her parent's death certificates there is no mention of just an Annie born circa 1865 other than Mary Ann Matilda, whom I seemingly mistakenly, believed to have been Annie! Interestingly all the children had more than one christian name, but my Annie just called herself Annie. My Gran was named after one of Annie's sisters and the family had contact with these named siblings. She had a very close relationship with her sisters throughout her lifetime. And these are the sisters!
Dee gave me these names and confirmed information I had:
Mary Ann Elizabeth
Alfred James
Mary Ann Elizabeth
Rebecca Elizabeth Wright Hurley
Edward Robert King
Mary Ann Matilda
Peter James Phillip William
I know there was another daughter, Ellen Sarah Florence.
With Dee's help I wanted to confirm that I hadn't missed Annie by mistake.
Does that make sense?
So I had been deducing that maybe Mary Ann Matilda, whom I have just learnt from a relative married Hector Bartlett, may have remarried. Yet the marriage certificate says that she was single, although she was pregnant with my Grandmother at the time of her marriage to John BURNS.
And now we can't find a death certificate for Mary Ann Matilda Bartlett. Are they one and the same or ....?
Can you follow my confusion?
Elsie
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Hi Elsie,
It seems that - if Annie and Mary Anne Matilda are to be one and the same person - you need the death of Hector BARTLETT before the marriage to BURNS in 1899. Unless she was a bigamist!
Let me try to summarize to clarify it in my own mind.
James Alfred WILLIAMS & Mary YEO had:
*Mary Anne Elizab b 1853, d 1853 (11 weeks)
*Alfred James b 1855
*Mary Anne Elizabeth b 1858, d 1859 (1)
*Elizabeth Rebecca b 1860
*Edward Robt King b 1862
*Mary Anne Matilda b 1864
all the above b Collingwood
*Francis Peter Yeo b 1867
in Ballarat
You say there was also a daughter Ellen Sarah Florence - presumably she is the following with her mother's name indexed as YOUNG
*WILLIAMS Ellen Sarah Florence, father James Alfred, mother Mary Anne YOUNG, b 1870 in Ballarat
If I understand correctly, you have two marriage certificates for daughters of James Alfred WILLIAMS & Mary Anne YEO (is this right?).
1. Matilda YEO (b Collingwood, age 21) m Hector BARTLETT (b Collingwood, age 25), 1885
2. Annie YEO (said to be a spinster, b ?, age 34) m ? BURNS, 1899
JAP
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hello there Elsie
from the marriage certificate
can you please tell us what are the names for Hector Bartlettt's parents
regards Jenn
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Hi JAP and Jenn.
Jenn... the parents' names for Hector are given as Hector Bartlett and Ann Golding.
JAP...you are correct.
*Hector and Matilda married on the 13 Aug 1885 in Fitzroy. Matilda is 21 years of age.
*John Anthony BURNS and Annie Williams married 8 May 1899. Annie is 34 years of age.
Annie died 17 April 1952, aged 86.
Same parental names on all three certificates.
Elsie
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Hi
I don't see any chn of the marriage of Hector BARTLETT and Matilda [Annie] WILLIAMS. Are you aware of any?
What was Hector's occupation on their marriage cert?
Going a little sideways here ;D
Cheers
Cando
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Sideways...that's fine Cando. ;D ;D
I would appreciate any thoughts and help to try to sort this out. I am at a total loss as to how to proceed.
JAP's suggestion that she was a bigamist, for example, could be a possibilty I guess...my beautiful, gentle Gr Gran. I'm still trying to get my mind around that thought. ???
Hector was a plasterer, as was his father. For interests sake, Matilda's father was identified as a carpenter and Annie's a builder. These two professions interchange on various certificates.
I have not yet come across any children from the marriage of Hector and Matilda.
Elsie
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I checked out the Divorce Causes file on PROV and couldn't see any mention of a divorce for Hector and Matilda.
.....dee
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I've been thinking about family photos...only have a few from then, but I have one precious one of the three sisters - Annie, Ellen and Rebecca!
Another sideways thought.
Elsie
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hello there
Everyting does seem to point to the fact that they are one in the same person, the ages on both marriage certificate add up so to speak. I wonder if the marriage to Hector Bartlett was dissolved for whatever reason, IE perhaps he deserted her and she had to wait for a certain time frame of around years for him to be declared legally dead. I had a good search intersate and could find him.
perhaps the photo of only the three sisters in itself could be a clue Matilda may have allways been called Annie??
regards Jenn
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Hi, Don’t know if it is straying off the line to much but back in reply #6 Ozybob mentioned the death of Hector Bartlett snr, not sure if you have that there was also an inquest into his death.
Name: BARTLETT Hector
Age: 63yrs
Place: Collingwood
Year: 1885
Ref. 504
Cause: Suicide Hanged
Occupation: Plasterer
Donna
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Donna,
That is a very sad piece of information but perhaps the inquest proceedings might throw some light on Hector jnr?
Elsie,
I wonder why Annie (if it is the same person) used the name Matilda at the marriage to Hector? Who were the witnesses - family members? Perhaps the family did not approve?
Jenn's idea that Hector might have deserted his wife who then had to wait for a statutory period before he could be declared dead is a good one - I wonder whether there would be any record of such a case. Another possibility might be that the marriage was annulled - records?
The photo of three sisters - Annie, Rebecca and Ellen - is interesting.
Only one of those - Ellen - is a first name of one of the children of James WILLIAMS & Mary YEO as registered.
The family seems to have had something of a history of changing the order of given names, and introducing other given names.
1. Mary Anne Elizab b & d 1853
2. Alfred James b 1855
?
3. Mary Anne Elizabeth b 1858, d 1859
4. Elizabeth Rebecca b 1860
I guess we are assuming (dreaded word) that this is the Rebecca of the photo.
Seems to have married Richard KNOWLES in 1879 as Elizth Rebecca Wright Hearly (!)
And died in 1947 as Elizth Rebecca Wright Hurley KNOWLES aged 88.
5. Edward Robt King b 1862
Seems to have married (as Edward Robert King) Louisa BARTLETT (sister of Hector?) in 1884.
And died in 1926 (age 63) in Ballarat as Edward Robert King WILLIAMS, parents James & unknown YEO.
6. Mary Anne Matilda b 1864
I guess we are assuming that this is the Annie of the photo.
Probably the Matilda who married Hector BARTLETT in 1885.
Probably the Annie who married John BURNS in 1899.
Probably the Annie who died in 1952 (age 86).
7. Francis Peter Yeo b 1867
Elsie, Is this the person you refer to as Peter James Phillip William? Do you have other records of him.
8. Ellen Sarah Florence b 1870
Died as Ellen Sarah Flor HOWITT in 1961, aged 91.
An interesting puzzle.
JAP
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Donna...at the moment I don't consider anything straying off the point. I thank you for this extra information although it is tragic. It is all helping to build a picture of the family and circumstances that might help clarify the situation.
The death of his father in such tragic circumstances might have had a dramatic effect on Hector Jnr, and as Jenn hypothesises, he may have deserted his wife. ???
Would information pertaining to the circumstances of his death be in more detail if I tried to obtain a copy of the inquest? How would I proceed to find and obtain a copy of the proceedings?
Thanks Donna :)
Elsie
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Hi JAP...
First the aunts...both sisters were known as Aunt Bec and Aunt Nell by their nieces. Elizabeth Rebecca Wright Hurley - this was her name. The Wright and Hurley are surnames connected to the family over a couple of earlier generations and the same with Elizabeth.
The names Mary Ann and Elizabeth are carried through this family as they are all used twice for the first two births where the girls sadly died at very young ages. Elizabeth then "stuck" with Bec and Mary Ann with Matida. Hope I'm making sense.
Elsie
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Sorry I couln't continue with my last posting earlier tonight. Visitors.
The witnesses to the first marriage - Matilda and Hector are Edward Williams (brother) and William Knowles (brother-in-law).
I have just received an email confirming that Edward's wife Louisa Bartlett was the sister of Hector, and as posted earlier, he died in Catlemaine in 1940s.
Perhaps purchasing his death certificate might add some new light, now I know it is definitely him.
How long did one have to wait for someone to be declared dead after desertion?
Really am appreciating all the input. Thanks.
Elsie
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have just received an email confirming that Edward's wife Louisa Bartlett was the sister of Hector, and as posted earlier, he died in Catlemaine in 1940s.
Perhaps purchasing his death certificate might add some new light, now I know it is definitely him.
I am not sure whose death certificate you mean here !
regards Jenn
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How long did one have to wait for someone to be declared dead after desertion?
Elsie
Elsie, here's a quote from
http://www.aifs.gov.au/institute/seminars/finlay.html#australia
"In Australia, as we have seen, the expedient of parliamentary divorce, as a way of escaping from a marriage, had never existed. A ‘popular’ way out was bigamy based on the presumption of death. This presumption was based on a common law rule in English law ‘that a person could be presumed dead, who had not been heard of for seven years by those who would be most likely to hear of them if they were alive.’40 The rule was institutionalised by legislation:"
The section Australia: Bigamy and the presumption of death: a ‘People’s Divorce’ on the website page makes interesting reading. Could make an interesting thread on its own.......think there might be quite a few of us who have ancestors who "married" presumptiously! :o ;) ;D
.....dee
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G'day Dee
I know that some of those female convicts who went to VDL [Tasmania], and probably elsewhere,
married [again], as widows , with 'the blessing' of the powers that be.
My GggGrandmother did in Hobart in 1845!!!
If she hadn't I would not be here!!!!!
[to annoy everyone with my lateral eccentricities].
EDO
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Hi Everyone! :)
Well...to continue...
I have just purchased a copy of Hector Bartlett's death certificate (1941). Hector died in a Benevolent Home in Castelmaine and they are the informants!So there is little more to go on from that. All they acknowledge is that he was married. To whom, when etc the answer is not known. So basically it would seem that Matilda is off the radar screen of his life!
(Annie didn't die until 1952.)
That avenue of search seems to be a dead end.
A puzzled Elsie
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Oh Elsie, it really is a puzzle. I'm afraid I am right out of ideas on this one at the moment. I hav e just had another good search of the indexes using spelling variations, but nothing new came up.
.....dee
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Hi ...dee!
I have really appreciated all your help and thoughtful suggestions. Thank you.
I continue to stare at the signatures on both marriage certificates, and the more I do the more I see the similarities in the handwriting of the surname. Autosuggestion or reality?
Maybe I'll never really know and that was the way it was meant to be. However, I'll keep searching and following any lead I can....for now I do know there is something to know!!!
Elsie
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Elsie, can you scan the signatures on the certificates and post the images on here? More opinions wouldn't hurt.....
......dee
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...dee
I have a scanner, but how do I get it to scan to this thread?
Elsie
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You need to scan and save the image to your computer, Elsie, then crop out the signatures, and post the image of the signatures from your computer. If you don't know how, ask for more help and we'll try.....
.....dee
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Hi Elsie,
I have shrunk this link for your perusal.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01vc/
{As you may know, I am always one for a cemetery search}
The information ...scroll down.... on the link about Castlemaine cemetery is interesting and if I were you I would make contact with the cemetery and/or the Historical society who's address and contacts are listed there.
These people are usually prompt and efficient and I have personallly had good results through such avenues.
Sue
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??? ??? ???
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Sorry,
I will be preparing for the Melbourne Cup in my home town......polishing my nails, not someone's GGF's mem. monument.[ assuming the equine 'flu thing is over]
Sue
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Hi All!
Hector Bartlett died in "Benevolent Home, Castlemaine Borough" 4th Nov 1941. The Benevolent Home is identified as his usual home. I have now learnt that he was buried in Springvale Cemetery, not at Castlemaine, and the burial date is 31 Oct 1942!
Nearly a year elapsed between his death and burial. ???
I am calling on your collective wisdom and advice to help me interpret this delay please.
Cheers
Elsie
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How very interesting, that is an awfull long time.
I wonder if a call or email to Springvale might be of some help.
didn't the death certificate state where he was buried?
Jenn
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Sometimes Jenn you can read something repeatedly and for some inexplicable reason not all the information gels!!!! ::) ::) This section is handwritten and not as one word, as well it does not state Melb. I can only assume I/we thought it must be the name of a cemetery in the area. Sigh!
This document has been read by a few family members and noone picked up the date discrepancy. Frustrated with myself!!! A few days short of twelve months seems an inordinantly long time between death and burial.
I'm hoping there is a paper trail. But what or where?
Elsie
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Frustrated with myself!!! A few days short of twelve months seems an inordinantly long time between death and burial.
Ah well Elsie it has been 12 months since your last posting on this subject :D an omen !!!
I was wondering if no one claimed the body ie a relative etc and there was a waiting time, doesn't seem possible thought does it. I note the grave is a public one so he may be buried with others from the Benevolent home and that might be the last date of the last person in the grave??
slei does the actual death certificate have died in 1941 and buried in 1942?
kind thoughts Jenn
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Hi Jenn!
I was wondering how you knew that it was a Public Grave. Just trying to learn what indicators to look for when searching through cemetery records.
I contacted the Springvale Cemetery and this was their reply:
"We write in response to your enquiry regarding the late Hector Bartlett. Please note that as this is a Public Burial we are unable to give you an exact location. There is no commemorative plaque or headstone at the grave to mark it. The date of service was 31/10/1942.
Unfortunately we do not have any other information listed for this burial."
So now I'm trying to find a lead to the relevant Funeral Director in the hope records might still exist. What are my chances?
Elsie
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Hi All! :)
Once again I seek your help.
Roy Hector BARTLETT and Charles Hector BARTLETT have been identified through the historical Australian Electoral Rolls as the only two Bartletts with the name Hector. Both were plasterers! That's all the information I have been forwarded. I have not seen the relevant information in the Electoral Rolls so do not know where they were living or who else may have been registered on the rolls living at the address with either Roy or Charles.
Now I seek your help to find the names of the parents of both of these gentlemen please. I would also appreciate their birth, marriage and death details if possible please to see if they link to our Bartlett family.
Ever hopeful
Elsie
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BARTLETT Roy Hector died aged 49 in 1943 at South Melbourne reg no 6803
Father Bartlett Alfred Mother Ellen HIDEE
here is his birth
BARTLETT Hector Roy
Event: B born 1894 Collingwood reg no 10863
father Alfd mother Ellen Hider
they also had
BARTLETT Chas Hector born1901 Northcote Victoria reg no 21407
father Alf mother Ellen Hide
(Also a Plasterer)
as well as other children
The father of the two Hectors Alfred Bartlett is also a Plasterer!!!!
Jenn
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BARTLETT Charles Hector
Father Alfred Mother Ellen HIDER
At Northcote 1901 Reg# 21407
BARTLETT Hector Roy
Father Alfred Mother Ellen HIDER
At Collingwood 1894 Reg #10863
Marriages
BARTLETT Roy Hector
MCLEAN Beatrice Mary 1932 Reg #3445
BARTLETT Hector Charles
ROBINSON Elsie May 1932 Reg #6303
Cando
Edit I apologise Jenn the red warning notice didn't display indicating another post had been made.....ahh I see now you modified the message :)
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Deleted
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Sorry Cando we crossed over I just had the page open to moidfy and the red warning didn't come up either.
Jenn
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Thank you Jenn and Cando. :D
My initial query is now answered. Both Roy and Charles are nephews of my Hector Bartlett.
Is it possible to find their death details please, as well as details of any children born to both Charles and Roy?
Elsie
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I have given you Roy's death and a death for Charles does not appear up to 1984
births only go to 1920 and they weren't married till 1932
Jenn
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Ooops. ::) Sorry.
Thanks Jenn.
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Hi Elsie,
I have been helping a friend of mine research her history, and she is descended from the same folks as you've listed (Hector Bartlett & Ann Golding -> Louisa Bartlett & Edward Williams).
As part of digging stuff up for her, I found this entry:
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/AUS-VIC-GIPPSLAND/2008-01/1200145277
Its more about Susan, another daughter of Hector & Ann, but it might shed some light on some of the complicated situations the family appears to find itself in :-)
I'd be happy to also confer about information about the Williams & Bartlett's if you'd like to
Damien
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http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/6076867?searchTerm=Bartlett+HEctor
Elsie now that a lot of newspaper have been digitalized you can see a report of his suicide.
You will also find other reference to hector Bartlett one as an insolvent in 1862 and another in 1861 where he has slipped and hurt himself.
Jenn
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http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/6076867?searchTerm=Bartlett+HEctor
Elsie now that a lot of newspaper have been digitalized you can see a report of his suicide.
You will also find other reference to hector Bartlett one as an insolvent in 1862 and another in 1861 where he has slipped and hurt himself.
Jenn
I've corrected the text so its a bit easier to read:
The Argus (Melbourne, Vic.)
Tuesday 28 April 1885
INQUEST.
SUICIDE.
Mr. Candler, the district coroner, held an inquest at Collingwood on Saturday on the body of Hector Bartlett, a plasterer, aged 63 years, who had been drinking heavily lately. When his wife retired at half-past 10 o'clock on Thursday night, he was asleep on a sofa, but on the following morning about 7 o'clock when she went to an outhouse, she found him hanging by the neck from a rafter. She called a neighbour, who cut him down, but life was then extinct. The jury returned a verdict of suicide during temporary in- sanity.
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Hello! :D
Thank you for this Jenn. What an amazing resource! I have found the articles. Wondeful snippets providing a little further insight into the life and sad death of Hector. The family seems to have faced many challenges.
Damian....another fascinating story involving a member of the Bartlett family. With great interest, I have just followed the thread from the webpage you provide in your posting. I would be pleased to correspond further with you about the Williams and Bartletts.
With a smile
Elsie
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Elsie
My wife is the great-grand-daughter of Susan BARTLETT (born 1854)
Suttor
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Hello Suttor!
Welcome to Rootschat.
What a welcome posting ... I will send you a personal email.
Elsie