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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Bedfordshire => Topic started by: shirle on Tuesday 28 August 07 11:39 BST (UK)
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Can anyone explain to me why the Wildman's changed their names to Tyler in the 1861 Census, and does anyone have any information on James Wildman, father of Thomas.
Marriage at Riseley Parish Church - pg27 No53
Thomas Wildman Full age Bachelor Labourer Riseley James Labourer to
Temperance Symants Full age Spinster Riseley Samuel Labourer
1851 - HO107; 1751; 59; pg2 Riseley
Thomas Wyman, 32, Radwell, Beds
Temperance " 32, Riseley, Beds
Alfred " 2, Riseley, Beds
1861 - RG9; 985; 19; pg2 Riseley
Thomas Tylor, 42, Bletsoe, Beds
Temperance", 42, Riseley, Beds
Alfred ", 12, Riseley, Beds
William ", 7, Riseley, Beds
Samuel ", 2, Riseley, Beds
1871 - RG10; 1537; 6; pg4 - 22 High Street, Riseley
Thomas Wildman, 52, Bletsoff, Beds
Temperance " 52, Riseley, Beds
Frederic " 22, Riseley, Beds
Bela " 20, Riseley, Beds
William " 19, Riseley, Beds
Samuel " 12, Riseley, Beds
Susan " 9, Riseley, Beds
Can't find Bela in 1861 Census.
No Alfred in 1871 Census but Frederic is same age as Alfred. I think they are the same person. Could find no other Census for Frederic or a Death for Frederic.
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It might be nothing more sinister than an enumeration error
but
there is a baptism on the IGI (extracted so reliable) on 20 Apr 1772 at Riseley of Martha Wildman or Tyler daughter of Edward Wildman or Tyler, so it appears as though there is some sort of precedent (there are 4 other such entries in Riseley, and a number of marriages). Perhaps they used both surnames.
Also in the BVRI there are a number children of Thomas and Temperance who were baptised in Riseley as "Wildman or Tyler"
Have you found the baptism of Thomas? Bletsoe baptisms/marriages post 1812 are not on the IGI. Another "but" - there is a Thomas Wildman baptised on 20 Sept 1818 at Harpur St Wesleyan Methodist in Bedford, son of James and Catherine. There's a marriage on 4 Jun 1817 of James Wildman and Catherine Bell at Felmersham which is less than a mile west of Radwell, which is a mile west of Bletsoe. Pure speculation of course, but a Catherine Wildman age 46 was buried at Bletsoe on 5 April 1839. Thomas is the only child of James and Catherine on the IGI - if they were non-conformist it's possible they moved to a different church, and subsequent children were not baptised
In 1841 HO107/8/2 folio 5A
Church St, Bletsoe
James Whildman (indexed as Thoman) 50 ag lab born in county,
living in same house as 6 Whites including Thomas & Jane 40
Living in Bletsoe in 1851 HO107/1751 folio 143B
Jane White head W(id) or U(unm) 50 pauper/lacemaker b Sharnbrook
James Wildman lodger widower 64 ag lab b Riseley
George Wildman lodger marr 30 ag lab b Bletsoe
Ann Wildman lodger marr 36 lacemaker b Bletsoe
In 1861
Bletsoe
George Wildman head marr 40 ag lab b Bletsoe
Ann Wildman wife 46 b Bletsoe
William 9, Joseph 6; John 5, sons all b Bletsoe
James Wildman lodger widower 75 parish labourer b Riseley
See a very long thread on this family
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,192610.0.html
- being a contrary sort of person I do not necessarily agree, at least not without further research, that James has a connection to Ravensden. I'm sure when JP reads this he'll chip in with further thoughts!
Regards
David
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Hello Shirley
Hopefully David's finished altering his posting ...
George Wildman married Ann Allen in Bletsoe on 2/12/1850
George died in 1903 age 82 at the Bedford Union workhouse.
His sister Mary Wildman b 1830 married Joseph Partridge on 25/12/1850
Joseph Partridge was son of George P, who was brother to my gt-gt-grandfather Richard P 1792 of Bletsoe
I have other tenuous links to the Wildman's via Amos Symants - brother of Temperance, who married Thomas Wildman.
Regards John
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You know what it's like John - you keep finding an extra snippet, and then you find an enormous archived thread! But, yes, I had finished. Thought you were at work anyway which is why I kept fine tuning my post while I thought that no-one was looking!
It seems from censuses as though George was the son of James, and therefore a younger brother of Thomas - have you found any confirmation that he and Mary were children of James and Catherine? That at least would go a long way to tieing in that Felmersham marriage to Thomas
David
I know, now I'm altering this post as well!
This 37 degree sun is addling my brain this afternoon
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The Wildman alias Tyler scenario is not only in Riseley, but in neighbouring Thurleigh. From both these parishes, records have baptisms, marriages & burials in these names & many variants ; WILEMAN, WILLEMAN, WILLMAN, TILER, TILUR; going back to 1649. Also sometimes reverting to just the one name Tyler or Wildman & then reappearing with the alias. This cannot be just the transcriber saying this could either be 'Wildman' or 'Tyler' but that the family name was stated with the associated alias.There are cases of a marriage of a Wildman alias Tyler, followed by a burial of the man, followed by a remarriage of the widow which still states Wildman alias Tyler - surely she would have made her bloody mind up by now. I digress !
I did find a marriage in 1812 of a William Wildman alias Tyler of Bletsoe, marrying Susan Fairey - I hope Marlene/Dale may make a comment later when the sun wakes up NZ.
John P
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David.
In reply to your question, I think I must have seen the Bletsoe PR at the Archives as I've recorded dates in my extensive family tree. I would not have recorded them otherwise, plus I've found an email sent to Marlene in Nov 2006
I have a Mary W b 1830 who married Joseph Partridge & per the 1850 marriage cert entry for Joseph Partridge & Mary Wildman her father is named as James. Mary Wildman chr 10/Oct/1830 Bletsoe, daughter of James & Catherine ( ? Bell). On same day were chr Ann Wildman & Elizabeth Wildman. Previously found chr of George Wildman, son of James & Catherine on 09/JUN/1821
What I haven't seen is the baptism in Bedford of Thomas 1818. Do the Archives have methodist records ?
(just in case you've already read this - this was added later ! 8))
at the marriage of William Fairey & Mary Chambers, both of Radweill, on 28/02/1813 at Felmersham; the witnesses were Thomas Bell & Catherine Bell. Marlene ? yes Boycie,,, is this William the brother to Susannah ?
Regardez John
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Hi John
There's a transcript of Bedford Harpur St Methodist available from BLARS on fiche, so they probably have them on film.
It's all coming together but Thomas's birth/baptism would be useful - John and Catherine of Bletsoe would be a bonus!
I agree with you that Wildman/Tyler is not a transcription problem. Wildman alias Tyler would probably be better
David
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As you can see I am getting better at this however I forgot to add that 1841 Census I have a possible for Thomas at Riseley, District 2, Page 2
Thomas Tyler 20 Ag Labourer Riseley born in country
I did think James could be a possible brother to Thomas
Shirley
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Thanks David
I have found no baptism of Thomas although my resources are very limited as I live in Australia. I have Thomas born 1819, using the census information as he seems to be consistant with his age, just not where he is born or his surname. Your James Wildman and Catherine Bell seem to fit in, an her early death would explain why she is not in the 1841 census
Shirley
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Kia Ora All
Delighted to see the Beds Boy again raising his head and better make the most of it as a certain World Cup is about to start & we'll all be fighting cat & dog!
Thanks for the alert JP & nice to see you're continuing the battle Shirle!
I have a copy of the marriage entry at Riseley of Susannah Fair(e)y to William Wildman alias Tyler.
I have been told that the surname can be interpreted as an early bastardy where the family did not want either name to be lost because of possible inheritance claims! Me, I know nothing, cos it seems everyone just claims domestic purposes benefits these days!
Now William & Susannah (bap 1791 Riseley) married 13 October 1812 at Riseley and had
Esther 18 April 1813 bap Riseley Wildman or Tyler (!!)
George 22 June 1815 bap Riseley ***
Sarah bap 26 November 1815 Riseley (Wildman !) died 1 Jan 1822 or at least was buried then!
*** is attributed to parents William & Susannah on the BVRI but doesn't show on the LDS online site!
BUT in 1841 George is living next door to Esther (sister) and her husband Isaac Flavell who married in Blestoe 16 October 1832.
In 1841 William & Susannah had an 11 year old daughter (?) living with them in Riseley - I cannot find a baptism for her anywhere.
Susannah was buried 24 May and William 4 June 1848 at Riseley.
Mary disppears from the radar - so was she living with W & S in 1841 for some reason? Susannah was a midwife so maybe adopted her?
I'm convinced of a connection to JPs Mary and a connection to Bletsoe and surprised that W & S had so few children and also suspect that some of the other children baptised to a W & S may be theirs but in another village!
The Wyman/Whyment pops up all over the place as boarders with Fairey descendants or living next door over decades but I have seen it as a separate name from the Wildman clan!
Go on shoot holes in my Fairy tree!
Anyone got the BVRI mine has holes in it >:(
Regards
Marlene
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Hi Marlene
I've not been away! Other than for the odd week either when I've been visiting relatives, or when UK citizens have looked to escape the rain and have descended on me! I think this World Cup we're going to give one of the other teams a chance to win the cup.
I have the BVRI if you need anything specific checked - mine have got holes in too, but just a circular one in the middle which I understand to be deliberate
All the best
David
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Tena Koe David!
I Knew you were around from another alias (dirty word) on another site!
If you wouldn't mind could you double check George circa 1815 and whether there is a baptism for a Mary circa 1830 just so there is a record here for JP & Shirle?
My BVRI has been thrashed I'm afraid & the Fair(e)y section has deeper grooves than usual! Funny I have the hole in the middle too!
The All Blacks have flown out & are supposedly heading for Corsica - no idea why!
Don't forget to go to Paris and see our rugby ball in front of the Eyeful Tower!
Cheers
The Kiwi Kid
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Hi Marlene
This is my only alias! The other boards are me - "David" with a giveaway email if you know I live in Carcassonne!
The All Blacks have gone to Corsica because there are loads of sheep there (make good cheese - sheep milk, not all-black milk!) and it makes them feel at home. I wouldn't go to Paris to see an English rugby ball, let alone a kiwi one (in fact I wouldn't even cross the road to see either!)
The BVRI baptisms are as you give for Esther, George and Sarah - George must have been a late baptism as his birth must have been Dec 1814 latest.
There are no Mary Wildman or Mary Tyler baptised 1830. Marys/Marias baptised in Riseley 1829-31 (all were 1829 or 1830) were Baker/Cooper/Dickens/Dennis/Langley/Sharman. I can see Baker, Cooper, Dennis and Langley in 1841 so if she was born in Riseley she may have been one of the other two. Do either of the names ring a Wildman bell?
Regards
David
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... but I'm sure I've seen the baptism on 10/10/1830 at Bletsoe of Mary Wildman, daughter of James Wildman & Catherine (Bell). She married Joseph P in 1850 so she ought to be somwewhere on 1841.
John P alas no alias
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Ok Fellas this is my beauty sleep time & ye gods it's needed!
JP- I reckon she IS the Mary who is with William & Susannah in 1841 - maybe it was school hols ???
If she belonged to W & S she was a (very) late baby commonly called an afterthought?
Had anything dramatic happened to James & Catherine that she might have been sent to the Aunt & Uncle nearby? I understand Bletsoe is only a couple of miles from Riseley?
David, firstly I suppose you are a round ball man and then I have to say our sheep population has dwindled considerably as Dairy products are making us a mint at present!
So from now on it has to be cow jokes! And we already know all the ones about their flatulence causing air pollution!
A very tired Kiwi is now taking the body to the spa & byes!
Ka kite ano
See ya tomorrow! Or later today!
Marlene
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Sorry John, I should have made it clear that I was only looking in Riseley - Bletsoe isn't on the BVRI. If you can't see her in Bletsoe in 1841 then the Riseley Mary looks as though it should be her. As her mother died in 1839 that's possibly the reason she was boarded out with relatives
David
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... so what is the relationship between William Wildman b 1787 Bletsoe ? (married Susannah Fairey) & James Wildman b 1791 Riseley (married Catherine Bell)
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1841 Riseley census Dist 2; Page 6
Elizabeth Wildman 20
George Wildman 25 Cordwainer
and they lived next door to
William & Sarah Wildman, both 50 as well as Mary Wildman11
1841 Bletsoe Village Dist 4; Page 2
John Smith 40 Ag Lab
Martha Smith 40 Lacemaker
William Smith 11 Ag Lab
Mary Smith 7
Ann Wildman 15 Lacemaker
1851 Ann Wildman is still living in the same household and is listed as Neice
Shirley
After Catherine died could the children have been sent to live with relatives
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So did John Smith marry a Martha Wildman born around 1801 at Radwell, birthplace (as per 1851 / 1861 censuses) - I cannot find a marriage which would be about 1830 - there is a member submission without any name for her.
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Did Catherine have a sister Martha
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Hi John
As the marriage isn't on the IGI, and as Felmersham has been extracted and Bletsoe post 1812 hasn't, the chances are that the marriage was probably in Bletsoe
Another one on the Archives to do list!
David
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I am thinking there's a link from the Bells to the Wildmans via the Faireys....
I said earlier ... at the marriage of William Fairey & Mary Chambers, both of Radwell, on 28/02/1813 at Felmersham; the witnesses were Thomas Bell & Catherine Bell ... I've just been looking at Bells of Felmersham (Radwell being hamlet attached to that village)
A joint baptism took place at Felmersham on 26 June 1808 of
Maria - daughter of John & Elizabeth Bell
Thomas - son of Thomas & Sarah Bell
... so inference is it's the same family = John & Thomas are related
other children baptised in Felmersham
11 Aug 1805 John - son of John & Elizabeth Bell
10 Aug 1806 Mary - daughter of Thomas & Sarah Bell
Marriage found on 28 May 1806 of Thomas Bell & Sarah Farey
So is it this Thomas Bell & his sister/cousin ? Catherine Bell who were witnesses to the above marriage of William Fairey & Mary Chambers ?
There is also a marriage of Samuel Bell to Martha Swannell 11/09/1818.
Thomas was a bricklayer on his marriage to Sarah Fairey. On the 1803 muster lists there are John Bell age 36 & Thomas Bell age 18, both Masons. In the book on Felmersham, a riverside parish, it has that John & Samuel Bell were masons who built the Felmersham/Radwell bridge in 1818 in an agreement with Joseph Swannell.
In this same book it states the the Radwell Methodist meeting house of 1807 registration document was signed by John Bell & Joseph Swannell amongst others.
... + John Partridge of Radwell had his house registered as a meeting house in 1806
Cheers John
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Sorry Guys _ I have been sent home from the hospital for 2 hours while they operate on my mother who fell & broke her hip. She has many medical complications & the prognosis is not good.
She's the parent with Fairy genes but this Fairy has to prioritise!
Solve the probs for me will you! I'd be fascinated to know if the William Fairey who married Mary Chambers had a brother named Thomas who also married? a Mary!
Don't know if James & William Wildman were brothers or cousins but presume that's the link!
Be back online asap.
Regards
Marlene
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Hello Marlene, Hope your mother is still making good progress.
From the Felmersham PR,
There is a marriage on 5 July 1805 of George Barnes, farmer of Thurleigh to Ann Wildman, by licence. From the marriage licences also at the library, it has both George & Ann being age 21 and that Edward Wildman, carpenter of Thurleigh stood surety. He was Ann's father & she was christened in Thurleigh on 30 June 1783. A number of IGI member submissions suggest this is Wildman or Tyler, but the PR does not say this.
Also there is a marriage on 19 Oct 1781 of John Fairey to Eliz Barnes. There are a number of baptisms between 1783 - 1799 being children of John & Eliz Fairy/Faray/Farey.
All the best, John
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Thanks John! It's hard to judge Joan's progress after 24 hours but pain relief is minimal and they have had her up & sitting in a chair AND she is "starving!" always a good sign!
It fascinates me that I have been unable to find a connection between the Thurleigh clan nor the Harrold Fairey lot with my very isolated William in Riseley - I can only presume that
1. he was illegitimate
2. his father's occupation took him outside the County for William's birth
3. that the 1841 census entry is incorrect
etc....
There is a William & Mary Fairey who were "expelled" to Godmanchester on the Blars site I think but there's no mention of children... I've often wondered what the papers say about those 2!
Are you able to look at the papers?
Marlene
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As it happens, I was going to pop in the Archives late tomorrow afternoon for an hour & a bit (as they stay open until 7 pm on a Monday) - primarily to find the John Smith / Martha marriage & the Thomas Wildman baptism at the Weslyan/Methodist church.
The Blars extract is from the Bolnhurst parish records ; Overseers of the Poor Accounts.
I will make a note & take a look.
John
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Out of A2A,
(1) from the Southill PR / Overseers to the Poor, is the following dated 1827 ......
Removal order for Sarah, wife of Samuel Tyler alias Samuel Wildman from Wilden to Southill, 5 October 1827, with a statement by Sarah concerning the disappearance of Samuel Tyler "some 45 years since", and on her marriage firstly to W. Sharp and secondly to John Davis of Wilden, both now dead.
(2) from Beds Quarter Session Rolls dated 1749
Recognizances: Sam. Tyler alias Wildman, Thurleigh,: bastardy. WITH ANN LEONARD.
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Burial of Sarah Tyler age 86 at Southill on 24 Jan 1837
also Samuel Tyler age 85 buried 4 July 1829.
So she found him again after 45 years+ ! The overseers seemed to have known where he was if Sarah was removed to Southill
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My goooooodness that's a story! :'( I feel a romantic novel coming on!)
So what do we surmise from this?
Sarah Unknown born +/ 1751 "marries" Samuel Wildman Tyler born circa 1744. They had children ??
About 1782 Samuel disappears and she remarries (??) twice.
They are reunited when the kindly Overseers send to her to Southill in 1827 & then she wears the poor old B**** out! Samuel dies 2 years later in 1829 and Sarah 8 years later!
Must have been his father/uncle who had a fling with Ann Leonard in 1749 surely??
There's a Samuel Wildman who married Sarah Virgin in 1853 Flitton with Silsoe whose father was William.
It's possible "my" William was the son of William & Anne of Maulden and had a brother Matthew.
Cheers
Marlene
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Oh to have been a fly on the wall of their Southill abode!
It seems as though:
10 Oct 1798 Sarah Wileman m William Sharp at Gt Barford
William may have been the one who was buried at neighbouring Renhold on 7 Sept 1801.
22 July 1804 Sarah Sharp m John Davis at Wilden
John Davis age 76 buried 18 July 1825 at Wilden.
I suppose that after 7 years absence Sarah was free to remarry. Odd though that Southill is only 6 miles from Gt Barford, and it didn't seem take long for Wilden overseers to find Samuel.
Could she have been Sarah Anderson who married Sam Tyler at Bromham on 3 July 1775? Can't see any children other than a possible Samuel who was christened at Henlow age 27 on 15 April 1804 - but in 1851 he gives his birthplace as Henlow (which is next door to Southill)
Out of the four parishes mentioned I've lived in three of them (born in one, moved to Bromham where JohnP and I were mates, then got married - not to JP- and lived in the third), and my grandmother came from the other, Southill. Thought you might be able to build that into the romantic novel!
Are Samuel and Sarah in the least bit relevant to this thread or are we on an interesting wild goose chase?
David
OK John, that's definitely the last amendment! 12.58 UK time
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Is absence supposed to be spelt abstinence??
About to turn into a pumpkin so will ponder this tomorrow!
I shall seriously consider writing you/rellies into the novel as the scandalised neighbours! :o
M
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You all lost me ages ago. I will wait for John's information & see if he comes up with anything. I have been in touch with my father's cousin to see if he can recall anything to do with the name Tyler as he still remembers Bela and Hannah as a child. Am waiting a reply from him.
Shirley
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I just let David & Marlene ramble on - now Shirley back to your quest
Have you seen this ? ... I just googled it out of cyberspace
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~rollinson/pafg20.htm
It's from someone researching Rollinson --- gathered no moss then !
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RAMBLE indeed! Who set this hare running with an A2A extract?
This board has been so quiet recently it's nice to find something to get one's teeth into
Just played White Rabbit - thanks for the prompt!
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(1) Thomas Wildman was baptised at Radwell Methodist church on the Bedford circuit on 20 Sept 1818, born 24 June 1818, parents James & Catherine Wildman of Radwell, Felmersham. Sorry no alias Tyler mentioned.
(2) John Smith married Martha BELL, both of this parish, on 1st March 1824 at Blertsoe. Witnesses John Bell & John Leete, junior. The rector was John Leete. The junior Leete appears at a few marriages where his 'senior' presided.
So what's the link between Martha & Catherine BELL ?
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Marlene,
The Bolnhurst Overseers account had no other names/details attached to William & Mary Fairey who were expelled to Godmanchester.
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Thanks John,
I can now assume that Thomas is the son of James Wildman & Catherine Bell.
At the marriage of James & Catherine on the 4 June 1817 at Felmesham is there any other information such as Parent or Witness?
I thought Catherine & Martha may have been sisters and was only maternal logic which I was going on.
Shirley
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I can find no trace of a baptism of James in Riseley or nearby c 1787, which is perhaps understandable if the family was non-conformist.
The only Tyler cum Wildman in Riseley in the 1803 Muster List was John Tyler servant 17 single, but I can't see a baptism for him either.
However there is a marriage in Riseley on 25 Dec 1783 between John Tyler and Elizabeth Baldwin, and a burial on 12 March 1800 of a John Tyler, which may be him and would explain his non-appearance on the muster list. But it seems as though there were two other Tyler families in Riseley at this time; John and Mary, and Edward and Sarah.
Pretty non-conclusive!
David
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I don't know what the 1803 Muster List is. Was it only held in Riseley or are there lists for other parishes in Beds as well.
Does anyone have any information on Catherine Bell and her family.
Shirley
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Another Rambler returns :D thanks for the lookup of William & Mary Fairey JP.
The pre 1837 marriage entries don't usually list parents Shirle - unless you happen to recognise a name as a witness.
Cheers
Marlene
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The government prepared for the defence of the country in the event of invasion, by creating reserves of men not already serving in the miliary, really acting as back up to the regular soldiers.
Most of these men were picked by ballot, but to do so all eligible men had to be listed (a mini census if you like) - Muster Lists.
Most have not survived, but some have including quite a lot of parishes in North Beds
Virtually all of Beds baptisms and marriages pre 1812 are on the IGI - if they're not there you may be struggling, particularly if they were non conformist
David
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Regarding the Bells of Radwell, I have this information - but cannot link any of them (yet)
Catherine Bell married James Wildman 1817
Thomas Bell married Sarah Fairey 1806
Samuel Bell married Martha Swannell 1818
John Smith married Martha Bell 1824
John Bell married Elizabeth ?
This last one may be Elizabeth Moor who married John Bell at Chellington 12/10/1796. These had children Maria 1808 & John 1805 Felmersham, plus a Joseph baptised 17 July 1814 at the Weslyan Methodist church (per IGI) .
He could well be the John Bell age 36 found on the 1803 Muster list
Elizabeth Moor b 1771 Chellington had sister Martha b 1770, & she married William Fole at Chellington.
Interestingly if you go back to baptisms at the Weslyan Methodist church you find baptisms of children to Samuel Bell & Martha (Swannell ?)
George Allen Bell 1824 born 1819
Martha More Bell 1824 born 1821
thinking cap time - John
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Just played White Rabbit - thanks for the prompt!
just for you David - enjoy ,, hope you've got some speakers by now
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6xhYk9PEmXA
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Brilliant, even through headphones - thanks!
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JP and David
What a couple of old rockers you are! JP, I do try to remember those song quotes that you use, but you know what they say - if you can remember the 60s........... 8)
I've been watching this thread because of the Fairey connection, though they aren't my family, as far as I can see.
Shirle
Sorry to butt in on your thread, but when these two get going, in between the banter there's always some good, reliable information, as Marlene (Dale) and I know.
Gill
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Marlene Dale here!
Just to report Joan is sitting up, walking occasionally and eating like there's no tomorrow. Hair set (very like Betty Windsor) nails painted and looking for an aging rocker! Rod Stewart who ran away with our Rachel (!) is tooooo young!
Thanks everyone for your best wishes - they worked! When the staples are out of the wound I have asked for a rehab programme, similar to that of an injured All Black. Might be off air at times while I watch a few important games over the next weeks.
I'm trying to sort out whether we can connect any of these Faireys Gill - where on earth did they all come from??
Ciao for now
Marlene
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I have been scrolling through the 1871 census for Riseley dist 1 High Street. How long was High Street? It seems to go on forever.
What I discovered was that the families we have been discussing as well as the Bailey family, GGGrandmother & decendents, All lived in High Street.
Shirley
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John
Re: Wildmans of Riseley
Marriage of Thomas & Temperance has witness as George Bafs. 1841 census living next door to Temperance & her family is George Bass & his family. Bit of a coincidence or not.
Shirley
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Shirle have a look at Genuki for Riseley Beds. You'll get an idea of the village and the population size over time.
Also google Rsieley there's a site with the village church etc.
When there was a double s in a name it was often written fs, that is, Bafs and Bass would almost certainly be the same person.
Cheers
Marlene
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The Bells, the Bells .... from another tree, I have the following
John Bell first married Mary Hulatt 1785 in Turvey ; they had
Thomas Bell 1785 - he married Sarah Fairey in 1806
Catherine Bell 1793 - she married James Wildman in 1817
John Bell next married Elizabeth Moor 1796 in Chellington, they had
Samuel Bell - he married Martha Swannell in 1818
there's also an Ann Bell who married a William White in 1856
Regards John
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So where does Martha Bell m John Smith come into all this, she married before Martha More Bell was born. John would have hardly have named 2 daughters Martha would he? One Martha for each marriage. Just as well he only married twice if he did.
There is a gap of approx 30 years between John Bell and Martha Bell if they were siblings. If they were, I am thankful that I didn't live in that era, unless John & Martha's father married again and he had a younger family which included Martha.
Does your source say what connection Ann Bell m William White is.
Shirley
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Ann Bell was another daughter of John (& Elizabeth) Bell born 1809-1811. She is on IGI as mother to William Bell b 1829 at Felmersham, the father is not named. On 1851 census William White age 39 & wife Mary & children were living in Felmersham 2 doors up from Ann Bell & her son William. William's father is John White as per his marriage to Ann.
Martha More was daughter of Samual Bell & Martha Swannell, & no this new source does not have the John Smith / Martha Bell marriage.
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Ann Wildman b 1823 to James & Catherine, & in 1851 was a niece living with John Smith & Martha. Tracked her forward & find she married Thomas Wilkinson of Keysoe on 15/10/1858 at Keysoe.
On 1871 the pair was living next door to William Wildman age 70 unmarried Carpenter of Keysoe.
Back to 1861 William is with widowed brother George.
Back to 1851 William is a lodger, but 2 doors up are brothers George, Thomas & Edward, plus widowed mother Ann age 73 born Thurleigh.
Back to 1841, Ann Wildman with sons George, Samuel, Thomas & Edward; while William is still in same lodgings.
So Ann Wildman born 1778 Thurleigh ? - could she be the Ann Ward who married William Wildman aka Tyler at Thurleigh on 24/12/1798
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None of them Wildman brothers were baptised at Keysoe as per the PR transcript. The IGI as William 1800 & George 1803 baptised in Ravensden to parents William Wildman & Ann.
Also found a Tyler Wildman christened on 26/11/1775 at Ravensden; parents Edward & Mary.
John
nb. this topic has had 80 views since my previous posting - so it must be of interest but nothing new to be added...
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So the 5 brothers could be cousins to Thomas and their father William may have been brother to James is that what you are thinking? It looks as though they are all related in some way.
In the 1841 census there are no Tyler's in our area so I think they kept the name Wildman in perferance to Tyler
Shirley
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I think the names have more to do with whether it was a means of identifying illegitimacy and/or entitlement to land/inheritances than simple choice!
The censii might be misleading as the enumerators probably couldn't be bothered with double barrelled names!
Marlene
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first of all hi again to jhon p and seahall im back ibeen having trouble loging in on my old user name samantha zoe so i had to re register as you are a were i'm research the wildmans for my husband as this is his direct family and i still have found no birth recoreds for thomas wildman aka tyler or temprences simmon's aka symions of risley but i do have both death certifs and there marriage certif
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hello Sam,
I have Thomas Wildman born 24/06/1818 at Radwell + a note that he was baptised at Radwell Methodist church - his parents James Wildman & Catherine (Bell).
Temperance Symants was baptised Riseley on 03/01/1819 - parents are Samuel Symants & Susannah (Manning)
Rgards
John
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Thanks John, I didn't know surname of Susannah. I have nearly given up on my UK relations as they are too hard online.
shirley
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hello Shirle, They got marrid in Chelveston, Northants .
See topic on Northants board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,285201.0.html
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well that would be why i could not find him in the normal parish records but had found temperance thanks now i mite be able to get copy's now i no were to look it's just up to now they all been bap in normal church thank sam :)
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Hello, haveing looked at your conversation, I believe we may have something in common. My Family line seems to conect, with your line. Samuel Wildman was my Great Gandfather, his Farther and Mother Thomas and Temperance, and Thomas's Farthr James all seem to be mentioned.
If we are related that would be great and I would very much like to chat.
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Hi There, just found this thread. I think I may have some links with the Riseley/Ravensden Wildman's.
My Grandfather Horace Wildman was born in Radwell in 1899 to I believe a Thomas Wildman who was an agricultural labourer from Riseley or Bolnhurst.
My Uncle was researchin the family but sadly passed away before he was able to get back much further.
Any assistance would be appreciated.
Many thanks,
Mark
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Hi Mark
Welcome to Rootschat
1901 census
2 Church Lane, East Haddon, Northants
Thomas Wildman head marr 33 Carter on Farm b Bolnhurst
Martha Wildman wife 30 b Bolnhurst
Isabel dau 6; Jesse son 4; both b Bolnhurst
Horace 2 b Radwell
Frank 1 b Milton Beds
I'll go back a bit and see what else I can find
David
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Thomas is a bit of a mystery, as he never appears on a census with his parents, always his grandfather:
1871
24 High St, Bolnhurst
Thomas Wildman head marr 56 ag lab b Ravensden
Ann Wildman wife 53 b Bolnhurst
Charles Wildman son unmarr 23 ag lab b Bolnhurst
Benjamin Wildman son unmarr 21 ag lab b Bolnhurst
John Wildman son unmarr 18 ag lab b Bolnhurst
Thomas Wildman grandson 3 b Bolnhurst
1881 see transcript on www.familysearch.org
1891
High St, Bolnhurst
Thomas Wildman head widower 77 ag lab b Ravensden
Thomas Wildman grandson 23 ag lab b Bolnhurst
There's a birth on http://freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl of a Thomas Wildman in Bedford registration district in Sept quarter 1867. If you order the certificate from the GRO this will give you his parents, as his baptism doesn't show on the IGI
David
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David your a star many thanks. Always knew we were a local North Beds family and strange how thing pan out as my father was born in London, however I was born and grew up in Radwell.
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Hello Mark; & welcome to RootsChat
From FreeBMD a Thomas Wildman married a Caroline Martha Jones in Apr-June 1892 Bedford RD vol 36 page 629.
On 1891 census she's a Caroline M Jones is servant in Luton to a Cotton & Ribbon merchant, she's aged 20 & born Bolnhurst. Noticed next door in Luton is a Kate H Jones age 25 born Bolnhurst similarly a servant.
I know David has identified his wife on 1901 to be just Martha, but could it be the same pair. If it is then get the marriage certificate which may name his father.
regards John
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Grandfather Thomas Wildman was baptised at Ravensden on 22 Jan 1815, son of William & Sarah (per BVRI)
William Wildman married Sarah Houghton at Ravensden on 13 Sept 1808 (BVRI)
David
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Pretty sure that Caroline Martha & Kate H Jones are sisters.
1881 census has Kate age 16 as servant in Luton, while Martha Jones age 9 is at home with parents Jesse & Hannah, plus another 6 children.
1871 census Kate age 5 is at home with parents George Jesse Jones & Hannah, plus other children.
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Hi there everyone
Mark, do you think your William, father to Grandfather Thomas could be a brother to my James Wildman b 1790 Riseley who married Catherine Bell
Shirley
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Hi Shirley, from the little I've managed to glean then that's the way my thought train is going.
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Mark I can't help as I don't even live in the Uk and research that far back is impossible online, but John & David could probably find a link if there is one.
Shirley
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Shirle; If David finds a link then that's your theory blown - he lives in France
Do you have any idea where James was born ? about 1791 -
he wasn't baptised in Riseley
I will look at Ravensden PR at the library tomorrow morning
regards John - Bedford - in the UK
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Sorry John, I do remember David living in France. I wasn't thinking when put post to Mark. Its very late over here & brain is frazzled. :) We had established somewhere that James wasn't baptised in Riseley perhaps Ravensden or Radwell. The only way to link would be to find both baptisms of James and William is that right?
Shirley
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What's wrong with checking the IGI on www.familysearch.org, which is available online in England, France and Australia?
There's a William Wildman baptised in Ravensden on 12 June 1791, son of George and Ann, which might be him, but he seems on the young side to have married in 1808.
There was also an Ann Skinner Wildman, dau of the same couple, baptised in 1792, which may be a clue as to Ann, but I can't find a marriage for George and Ann.
However there are burials of
George 25 Jan 1793
Ann 2 Feb 1793
Anne Skinner 21 Feb 1793
William 23 Nov 1797
which may have been the entire family, but it would take the parish register transcript to confirm it. The transcript is available for purchase from either Beds FHS or BLARS. I think this William might be a red herring.
There's also a William Wildman age 62 buried at Ravensden on 8 Jun 1830, but I can't see a burial of Sarah, nor can I see her in a census. He appears to have been baptised in Ravensden on 29 May 1768, son of Edward & Mary. I wonder though if the 13 Sept 1808 marriage to Sarah Houghton may have been a second marriage for William, as there's a marriage in Ravensden on 25 May 1800 William Wildman/Ann Ravens and a burial of Ann Wildman on 27 May 1808. William and Ann baptised a number of children 15 Jun 1802-1 May 1808 in Ravensden. This would make William rather older than envisaged, and I suspect he was the William baptised 1768.
There were numerous Wildmen in Ravensden, so there's no reason that there should be a link with Riseley. Because he wasn't baptised in Riseley, despite being born there, doesn't mean he has to have been baptised elsewhere. He might not have been baptised at all. My understanding of the Riseley James Wildman was that he was possibly of non-conformist stock, which is why a baptism may not be found
In the 1803 Muster Roll there's only one mention of a Wildman in Ravensden - Edward who owned 1 cart, 2 horses and 1 driver. But there's a William Whiteman, tradesman, class 4 (unmarried men 50-55; married men over 30, married men 17-30 with more than 2 children under 10) which may be an error for Wildman. If it was really William Wildman he would have fitted in class 4 - married man over 30.
Virtually all of Beds baptisms and marriages pre 1812 have been extracted onto the IGI, so it is patently not the case that "research that far back is impossible online". Most of the above was done online. Of course information from the IGI should ideally be checked against the parish register, microfilm copies of which can be viewed at your nearest LDS Family History Centre, as the register will often include additional information
David
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1871
24 High St, Bolnhurst
Thomas Wildman head marr 56 ag lab b Ravensden
Ann Wildman wife 53 b Bolnhurst
From FreeBMD (also online) I did find a marriage of Thomas Wildman to Ann Lovel in Jul/Sept 1840 Bedford RD 6/33. This is verified by the 1861 census entry as the mother in law is with the family..
1861 Street, Bolnhurst
Thomas 47 & wife Ann 43
Harriott 18, Charles 13, Samuel 11, John 8 - all born Bolnhurst
+ Hannah Lovell age 64, mother, widow born Thurleigh
John
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To give added value to David's last posting, from the Ravensden parish records.
William Wildman was a widower when he married Sarah Houghton, spinster on 13/9/1808 (blimey it's just been their 200th anniversary - what do you get for that)
Well David,
point 1; you say he seems a bit on the young side, consider the bride Sarah, she was baptised 19 June 1791 making her around 18, daughter of Jonathan & Eliz.
point 2: it's not his 2nd marriage - it's his 3rd, as when he married Ann Ravens on 25 May 1800 he was a widower.
The burial on 27 May 1808 was Ann, wife of William Wildman.
I suspect he was previously married to Elizabeth Westly on 7 Jan 1798 at Ravensden.
Burial on 10 April 1799 of Eliz, wife of William Wildman.
Also burial on 7 Sept 1800 of Ann Wildman, daughter of William & Eliz (his late wife).
Ann was baptised 7 Apr 1799.
Going back to the top... George WILEMAN, bach of Ravensden married Ann Skinner at Renhold on 11 Nov 1788. The banns are in the Ravensden PR in 1788. George on William's baptism & on his marriage is stated to be a labourer, but on his burial in 1793 he's a carpenter.
Other burials,
Ann is a widow
Ann Skinner is daughter to George (carpenter) & Ann
William is son of William Wildman & Eliz Westley before they were married.
Also one last bit,
there is a baptism on 19 Nov 1769 of Frances daughter of John & Sarah Tyler alias Wildman
Regards John
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Lots of good stuff there John.
So although William baptised 1791 wasn't the one who was buried in 1797, he couldn't have been the William, widower, who married in 1808, so he can definitely be ruled out. I think that leaves the field clear for the 1798, 1800, and 1808 marriages to be those of William baptised 1768
Interesting that the Tyler alias Wildman, or vice versa, name also crops up in Ravensden.
David
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Thomas is a bit of a mystery, as he never appears on a census with his parents, always his grandfather:
1871
24 High St, Bolnhurst
Thomas Wildman head marr 56 ag lab b Ravensden
Ann Wildman wife 53 b Bolnhurst
Charles Wildman son unmarr 23 ag lab b Bolnhurst
Benjamin Wildman son unmarr 21 ag lab b Bolnhurst
John Wildman son unmarr 18 ag lab b Bolnhurst
Thomas Wildman grandson 3 b Bolnhurst
1881 see transcript on www.familysearch.org
1891
High St, Bolnhurst
Thomas Wildman head widower 77 ag lab b Ravensden
Thomas Wildman grandson 23 ag lab b Bolnhurst
There's a birth on http://freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl of a Thomas Wildman in Bedford registration district in Sept quarter 1867. If you order the certificate from the GRO this will give you his parents, as his baptism doesn't show on the IGI
David
Just a quick update, Thomas lives with his grandparents because his father ?? was in the Navy, where his mother is I've yet to establish. Must get those certificates ordered.
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Interesting!
Where does that information come from Mark?
I didn't realise we even had a name for his father yet?
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That came from a long almost fogotten memory of a conversation with my Grandfather Horace, Thomas's son.
It acually came back to me when I was visiting my mother who has many models made by Thomas's father while at sea, then it dawned on me that that would be the reason Thomas is on the Census returns as living with his Grandfather.
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Adds up! Mind you, I've never heard of Bolnhurst-on-Sea!!!
Which makes it even more vital to get the birth cert to see what can be learnt about the father.
David
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hi my husband is related to the wildmans/ tylers from this area i have some info on this line and missing bit to as i dont think they baptised all there children as for the change in name i can only think it to do with an illagtement child some where as dueing this time it was law to register a child born out of marriage in mothers name sam :)
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I think somewhere in this thread we thought that nonconformity came into it, which might explain the missing baptisms.
The Wildman or Tyler name was spread over a period of 150 years in three or so parishes, so I don't think it can be explained away by a single illegitimacy.
After 1837 an illegitimate child was usually registered in the mother's name, unless the father accompanied the mother to register the birth, in which case both names were usually put in the register. So an illegitimate child could take the father's name.
But many of these Wildman or Tylers were recorded in parish registers throughout the 1700s, so there's got to be a reason going back possibly to the late 1600s for the dual name.
David
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possibale i found this poed up in my own line with a diffrent name
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Hi People,
I have come across the Tyler-Wildman name in my search for my ancestors, but till now had discounted it .... but .... in hindsight there may be a link.
I have traced my line back to Greenwich in the 1830s to Thomas Tyler, a chimney sweep who died in 1835 (I think). Anyway the interesting thing is that one of his sons, John, immigrated to New Zealand under the name of John Tyler WHITEMAN.
I can not find any further ancestors for Thomas and the earliest info I have about him is that he married an Ann White in Lambeth Surrey in 1821. It is probable that he was born in 1801
I believe that Thomas had two older brothers Benjamin and John as all three lived in the same area around Greenwich and all were chimney sweeps. Does any of this ring any bells with anyone?
It's a long shot I know, but it is one possibilty for where Whiteman name came from.
Fran in NZ
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The Wildman alias Tyler name in just a few Bedfordshire villages goes back at least until the early 1700s, so I don't think there's a connection to your Whiteman Tyler name.
Tyler was a pretty widespread name in England
David
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My goodness me , all that info !!!!
Ta muchly, I only had a quick read so far, I will settle in the new
day and digest things more slowly. ( I live in gods country , you see)
I noticed you have the Prs for Riseley, I gather you cant put me out of my misery and find the BP of Bertie Wildman. Is there two of them? I only discovered the two in 1911 when I was checking my records for you.
Could his parents have just listed him being home when he wasn't?
Sigh..................
Ta ta for your help
Cheers
Eds
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Every time I think this thread is dead it resurrects itself!
Can you tell us a bit more about the two Bertie Wildmans you've found, and what it is you need checking. The Riseley PRs referred to are probably the transcript, which only go up to 1812
David
Just found your thread on the Northants board which fills us in a bit. I'll take a look later today.
It's quite possible that his parents included him on their census return as that's where he usually lived, but he just happened to be visiting in Oundle on census night where he was also included, so appears twice in the census.