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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: Nickm on Monday 27 August 07 16:55 BST (UK)
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I'm looking for any info about the occupation I found on some ancestors in the 1851 to 1901 census. They were down in Newton Abbott, Devon. Luckily the Enumerator added the explanation of Tornographer as I cant find any mention of it anyhere.
I have a father and 2 sons listed as this occupation. Any info gratefully received!
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Hi Nickm
can you tell us what the census numbers are as I carnt see anything about a tornographer
ricky ;)
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Hi Ricky
Here is the 1851. Its the same family/place in later ones as well
1851 - PRO Reference: HO/107/1871 555+6 Page:7/8
Address: Courtenay St, Wolborough, Newton Abbot, Devonshire
Thomas MARTIN Head M 36 M Tornographer or Engraver of Seals by Steam Machinery. Master empl'g 2 men Denbury-DEV
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Hi Nickm
Must admit I carnt see anything about it , when I google for it comes up with some urrr weird sites ???
ricky
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Hi
There is a mention of tornography on the Antiquarian Book Website below:-
http://www.ilab.org/db/books1397.html
Scroll down to:-
SHARP, Granville.
THE GILBART PRIZE ESSAY on the Adaptation of Recent Discoveries and Inventions in Science and Art to the Purposes of Practical Banking.
It looks like it was something to do with engraving wax seals for banking.
However the word tornography does not seem to be listed in the dictionary - perhaps it is an archaic word or was a short lived invention ?
Have you tried looking in the trade directories for Newton Abbot to see what firm he may have worked for ?
mog
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Hi Mog, Thanks for this.
I did find them in a couple of Trade Directories, but they didn't say much...
Entry in Billings Directory of Devon - 1857 - "Martin, T. Engraver, Wolborough St" & "Engraver - Martin, Thomas, Wolborough St. (Ref: Westcountry Studies Library)
Slater's (Late Pigot & Co) Royal National and Commercial Directory - Newton Abbot - 1852-3 - "Tornographic Seal Engraver - Martin, Thomas, Courtenay St. (Ref: Westcountry Studies Library)
It looks like they were early adopters of new technology and then seals went out of use, maybe? They used Tornographic in the earlier one, but just said Engravers in the later one. They were still saying that they were Tornographers in the 1891 and 1901 census, but maybe they were just using it as a clever word for Engravers.
Thanks for finding the above.
nick
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Hey Nick
I think I've found it ! Looks like your man in Newton Abbot was the inventor of tornography.
I have just also checked out 'google books'
I searched on 'engraving wax seals'
Up pops this link for 'Official & Descriptive Illustrated Catalogue' for the Great Exhibition in 1851. There is a paragraph which advertises Thomas Martin Newton Abbot manufacturer and inventor !
The link below should work- let me know how you get on
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=m0EhOAmDWLYC&pg=RA3-PA836&dq=engraving+wax+seals
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Is Thomas Martin your relative ?
If so you have an inventor in the family - how exciting !
I now see that all the exhibitors for the Great Exhibition 1851 are listed including many other trades.
I am going to post this as a new topic thread as other rootschatters may be interested - hope that is ok with you.
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Your a star!!! Many thanks for this, its great!
We are a clever lot us Martins! Yes he is related, he is a brother of my Gt. Gt. Grandfather, Robert Martin. Robert left Devon in 1851/2 and came to Charlton in London. Robert and his sons were also inventors as I have found Patents at the British Library for them connected to Horse Hair Clippers. They manufactured these and later went into human hair dressing clippers.
I guess its back to the British Library to look for any patents for Thomas and his sons who also were Tornographers. And a look at the Newton Abbot papers to see if he got a mention for being athe Great Exhibition?
If you would like to start a new posting about the catalogue, thats fine by me.
Many thanks again!
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Cheshire Mog has pointed out that a book exists which has examples of tornography and the description confirms it is related to impressing wax seals:
SHARP, Granville. THE GILBART PRIZE ESSAY on the Adaptation of Recent Discoveries and Inventions in Science and Art to the Purposes of Practical Banking. London: Groomridge, 1854. 8vo, engraved portrait-frontispiece and an engraved portrait of the author, numerous plates, specimens and articles, 1 torn, index tabs torn with loss. Contemp. green half morocco, gilt. Very good, uncut copy. $1500. ¶ Third edition, the only illustrated version. The illustrations, numbered through 90, but with many bis items (some folding or consisting of two leaves), preserve an extraordinary collection of inventions, many represented by actual specimens, including security paper, banknotes, checks and ink specimens. This copy apparently lacks four specimens. There are also 15 wax seals mounted on the rear pastedown illustrating the new process of ‘tornography.’ Sharp, an accountant in the East of England Bank at Norwich, won the prize of £100 for his articles applicable to banking. Cotton & Little p.52.
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Wow that must be some book
The site I saw it on is advertising it at 900 USD equivalent gbp 446
* bookseller: William Dailey Rare Books Ltd (UNITED STATES OF AMERICA)
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Found a little bit more on google books
Looks like the author of the prize winning essay may have recommended the process of tornography to the banking profession for the engraving of checks (cheques) maybe ?
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JjcDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT18&dq=Granville+Sharp+Banking
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Bit odd this one. Page 138 has heading reference to new methods of engraving, but I cant find any detail for it. I downloaded the pdf and tried paging through all 166 pages and no mention? Did I miss it somehow?
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Try searching for Granville - the author
see the box 'search this book' on the bottom right
or try this link
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=JjcDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PT18&dq=Granville+Sharp+Banking#PPT18,M1
there does not seem to be a page number
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It does not mention tornography but it does explain the extent of his prize winning essay (aka rather large book) and why he may have been motivated to write it
mog
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A quick update o this.. I have traced a copy of the Essay in question to the V & A Museum. The catalogue entry says
"Includes fifteen specimens of brass seals in red sealing-wax, produced by Thomas Martin, Newton Abbot, Devon, attached to inside back board."
I plan to go and see it next week and get some photos of the Seals. I'm hoping that the Essay itself will say a bit more about Tornography and Thomas Martin.
Many thanks for finding the original reference!!!
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Good luck with your visit
Have you had to contact the V& A first to arrange a viewing ?
mog
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I have to pre order the books, 2 days in advance and I'll need to get a Temporary Ticket when I go there wit some id.
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I hope it goes really well for you
Mog
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I have now seen the book at the V&A. It gives a paragraph about Mr Martins new process "Tornography". It then gives a 2 page price list and a page of 15 red wax seals made by seals engraced by the new process.
My only idea for finding out more is to check for Patents for the new process of Tornography at the British Library. I did this for a brother (and his sons) of Thomas Martin, and found several patents for horse hair clippers.
My feeling is that this new process came too lateto make him a fortune(!) as the article talks about the Post Office not liking thick wax seals on letters, so I suspect that they started to become less used soon after he invented it. Not sure when envelopes with glue came into use?
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Dear Nick
My!- This sounds like complex work from a bygone age.
Perhaps a new, more specific post might help ?
This is why I wish 'WDYTYA' would focus on ordinary people as well as celebrities - Would make a good programme
mog
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Hello Nick!!
Just came across your post today as I was doing some research on a display which I have had for some time containing 89 seal examples which was probably used for the International Exhibition of 1862
The central seal is quite large and is for the International Exhibition, London 1862 but on either side there are 2 seals which refer to Thomas Martin - Tornographer of Newton Abbot, Devon who has probably made this display and seals.
The seals are of varying sizes and shapes from about 1cm and up to about 6-7 cm and the detail on some of these is quite intricate.
I have tried to attach a picture here for you as this may be of interest to you without any luck but I would be happy to send this to you via email.
I woud be very interested to see if you have any information related to this item.
Kind regards,
Allen Thompson
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Dear Allen
What a fabulous find I would love to see the photo.
Your picture did not attach.
When you are replying to a post you will see below the white box in blue text 'Attach a photograph or image' Click on the blue text and then click on Browse to choose your image. You may need to size your image down a bit as if it is too large it will be rejected. I think the limit is about 1000 pixels wide?
I will send a private message to Nick to make sure he has seen your post.
And welcome to rootschat
mog
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Hello Mog,
Thanks for your post.
I did try to attach 2 photos and downsized them according to the spec but I kept getting "page not found" error so had to give up. I thought perhaps I ws unable to attach since I had only just signed up which I did so that I could reply to Nick's post.
Is is quite a coincidence and I can only guess at its value. I worked for Rubber Stamp Manufacturer. who also made company seals, for some years. These had been in existence since the 1860's so, again, I can only guess that this display had been passed to the owner of the company after the London Exhibition of 1862. It was about to be thrown out when the company closed about 10 years ago.
Allen
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Hi Allen
I know that you can not send or receive a PM (private message) until you have 5 posts - maybe it is the same with images - maybe we should keep chatting for a while to get you up to 5 ??
How very fortunate that you rescued those seals - this happens so often - big clear out and things just get destroyed.
mog
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Thanks Mog,
I'll give it another try this evening when I get home from work.
The quality and detail of these things is amazing. As I said in my earlier post, the company I worked for also made wax seal "stamps" - not many mind you but there was the odd one. These were engraved by a parallel gravograph in order to get the detail right so, bearing in mind the available technology in the 1860's, I'm amazed that the were able to manage to get such detail.
I was looking at the catalogue for the 1851 exhibition and Thomas Martin was advertised there too and he claimed that he had engraved The Lord's Prayer on a seal of 1/2" in diameter.
We can only do that with laser engravers today!!
Allen
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Hi Allen
Keep me posted.
What amazing stuff - Mr Martin must have been a genius in the tornography world. Its great that you also worked in the industry and will have some knowledge of the processes.
I really hope Nickm gets in touch. I have sent him a PM to ask him to check out this link.
Mog
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Hi Mog,
I'm fascinated by the term "Tornographer" and how that came about. The Greek "Tornos" translates as "Lathe" so I would guess that maybe they used a lathe to turn the wax seal dies or even the handles but creating the actual wording on the die would need some other technology.
Interesting to see if Nick picks up these posts.
Allen
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Hi Allen
Yes I guess tornado is a derivative as well - meaning to turn or twist ?
I think your PM is now turned on - see the little scroll symbol under your Thompson coat of arms? If you click on Nicks little scroll symbol then you should be able to send him a PM.
By the way are you researching your own family tree? If so, you will get a lot of help on here - just shout.
Mog
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>>By the way are you researching your own family tree?
Did some research a while back and passed this on to my daughter. Managed to dig out quite a few birth/death/marriage certificates too thanks to the various census documents.
Allen
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F or T Martin of Newton Abbot, Tornographer